Discussion Sanji Discussion Thread

[Brandish μ]

If Page One was active, it doesn't make sense he quit looking for him especially if we take this canon and him being pissed at the end, why did he not meet up with his allies and start rampaging again. Doesn't make sense to just stop what he is doing like that. Feels more of an miscommunication probably than something Oda planned him coming back. Otherwise we would see him right back with Holdem and Kamazou who lost to Luffy and Zoro respectively, but come back like it was nothing. Something is off about it connecting in good to plot wise if you think about it.

Prefer he fight someone else as warm-up before facing either King or Queen.

Yea I get that, it's not impossible that Page One is done. He would need to be dead or severely injured which I'm not as comfortable with assuming. I'd much rather assume he is able to fight now (it's been a week??) and will make a return. Zoan's are noted for their toughness too, which supports him being okay.

I'm starting to tone down the level of expectation for Zoro/Sanji tiers beating Queen/King. Plot will let them beat whoever - but the question is should they? Should Sanji beat Queen or King solo, now? Or is there at least one more arcs' worth of power development before that is obtainable? This is how I see it...

Base Sanji - somewhere around the Vergo level
Sanji with RS - able to defeat Flying 6
Allstars are another tier above. Power ups available:
- upgraded RS (Usopp and Frankie)
- Vinsmoke genetics kicking in (idk wtf this is tbh)
- Developing haki game

I'm fairly confident Sanji's RS is upgraded compared to the Page One fight. It might just be that Page One is left alive/fine so that Sanji can prove the upgrades' worth.

But the big one is developing a strong haki game - particularly armament. It's the arc for it. Zoan's are physically durable. Zoan commanders like King and Queen will need more than RS upgrades, they'll require advanced armament haki. Given he hasn't really shown armament haki yet, he might need a couple of fights to develop this skill.

 

[Shasha23]

Maybe some of you didnt know this but Oda has already given the anime team the scrips of Wano plot, the things that happen in the anime can be considered as canon

 

[Pirate Queen]

Maybe some of you didnt know this but Oda has already given the anime team the scrips of Wano plot, the things that happen in the anime can be considered as canon

Where was this stated?

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 22, 2020 ---

I cant find a single article confirming this... it's just hyped up the Luffy vs Kaido episode if true tho!

 

[M3J]

Seems like Denjiro is the man. And all things considered, Wano is a different beast, and their notoriety is higher than ever, so it would've been hard for Sanji to do much as he only just got here.

Nah, Kinemon is even if by accident.

Which is why this is a perfect chance for Sanji to show what he's capable of. We know he's an extremely strong and capable fighter, so why not give him challenges to prove himself AND grow? Wano is the perfect place because unlike on WCI, they plan on taking out the enemies utterly and completely.

 

[Shasha23]

Where was this stated?

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 22, 2020 ---

I cant find a single article confirming this... it's just hyped up the Luffy vs Kaido episode if true tho!

I remember reading about it on Ap forum, ill look for the article

 

[King Moe]

I remember reading about it on Ap forum, ill look for the article

Lying again isn't good for you and plus if this was planned by Oda, it doesn't make sense on later after this fight PO just 'vanish' and never heard from again. It doesn't fit narrative much as wouldn't make sense him abandon the mission given his personality and stop terrorizing people. Also Oda wouldn't go hard on Sanji and Law talking he needs to be defeated if it was just escaping. Think it's miscommunication end of the day and it happens in anime with authors who wanted something specifically and they did it in wrong stated.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 22, 2020 ---

Yea I get that, it's not impossible that Page One is done. He would need to be dead or severely injured which I'm not as comfortable with assuming. I'd much rather assume he is able to fight now (it's been a week??) and will make a return. Zoan's are noted for their toughness too, which supports him being okay.

I'm starting to tone down the level of expectation for Zoro/Sanji tiers beating Queen/King. Plot will let them beat whoever - but the question is should they? Should Sanji beat Queen or King solo, now? Or is there at least one more arcs' worth of power development before that is obtainable? This is how I see it...

Base Sanji - somewhere around the Vergo level
Sanji with RS - able to defeat Flying 6
Allstars are another tier above. Power ups available:
- upgraded RS (Usopp and Frankie)
- Vinsmoke genetics kicking in (idk wtf this is tbh)
- Developing haki game

I'm fairly confident Sanji's RS is upgraded compared to the Page One fight. It might just be that Page One is left alive/fine so that Sanji can prove the upgrades' worth.

But the big one is developing a strong haki game - particularly armament. It's the arc for it. Zoan's are physically durable. Zoan commanders like King and Queen will need more than RS upgrades, they'll require advanced armament haki. Given he hasn't really shown armament haki yet, he might need a couple of fights to develop this skill.

Oda wouldn't go this long on bringing back a character like this as even Holdem got back before him which is bit more farfetched when he is underling compare to T6H. So seems more like miscommunication on how fight should have ended and what will happen to him.

As for fights, I mean writing wise it's leading Sanji to them, but see Zoro facing Orochi as his final opponent. Though I know most of all if Luffy beat Kaido and be Yonko lvl more, these two will need to be more YC lvl more in the end. So they need to be close to Luffy's level without being left in the dust.

Sanji without RS or with RS is YC lvl now or have like Luffy did in increasing his Haki to surpassed King or Queen in a fight. He is ready to face heavy challengers and it is looking that way from how it looks.

 

[Brandish μ]

Oda wouldn't go this long on bringing back a character like this as even Holdem got back before him which is bit more farfetched when he is underling compare to T6H. So seems more like miscommunication on how fight should have ended and what will happen to him.

As for fights, I mean writing wise it's leading Sanji to them, but see Zoro facing Orochi as his final opponent. Though I know most of all if Luffy beat Kaido and be Yonko lvl more, these two will need to be more YC lvl more in the end. So they need to be close to Luffy's level without being left in the dust.

Maybe, but why not show us Page One utterly destroyed? To keep us in suspense? I don't think Page One is that important a character, nor is the power of the RS something we need to be kept out of the loop about. Maybe it's more about Sanji's RS not being complete. He's going to get it upgraded, so unveiling it properly (named techniques and how it will look moving fwd), will wait for later. And to showcase the upgrades, Sanji will defeat Page One completely and with ease. That seems like my guess having wrote about it a bit.

I agree Zoro's going for Orochi. Sanji's not exactly set yet on any opponent. I think Drake is going to be involved with him somehow. Sanji would also be driven by the food crisis on Wano, as a personal motivator on top of fighting as a SH.

Sanji without RS or with RS is YC lvl now or have like Luffy did in increasing his Haki to surpassed King or Queen in a fight. He is ready to face heavy challengers and it is looking that way from how it looks.

I don't think Sanji without or with RS is YC level right now based on feats. For example, I don't believe he can't beat Jack unless he develops within that fight against Jack. He's going to win against someone strong this arc - it might be King/Queen/Jack, and he will empty the kitchen sink to do so. Or he may get assistance, like Luffy did vs Cracker. Or it could be an all out fight against Drake.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 22, 2020 ---

Nah, Kinemon is even if by accident.

Which is why this is a perfect chance for Sanji to show what he's capable of. We know he's an extremely strong and capable fighter, so why not give him challenges to prove himself AND grow? Wano is the perfect place because unlike on WCI, they plan on taking out the enemies utterly and completely.

I think that Wano's secrets, history, and how there's also Orochi in the mix makes it almost impossible for Sanji to just unravel it all after stepping off the boat. I'm a proponent of Sanji doing something like this but it's needs to be believable and conserve others' credibility too. He might be able to effect something during the upcoming battle/war. If it's like Marineford, there were some tactics employed by Sengoku and WB iirc and maybe Sanji can do similar. That said he doesn't need to be some tactician lol particularly when he'll be required on the ground as a fighter.

 

[nik87]

PageOne is the ideal opponent for Sanji.
Barehanded, doesnt seem to use CoO, tanky so Sanji can knock himself out on him without being in grave danger.
If he is Sanjino's major fight of the arc, the worst fears will come true, he will not be relevant fighter at EoS, unless Oda pulls a rabbit out of the hat.

Maybe there is some Okama kenpo up his sleeve which he is too embarrassed to use or some planned development to boost him up significantly but so far, it doesnt look good, it is a crime to compare him with Zoro but I know that's the favourite thing to do, however, it creates an illusion about Sanji's power level.

 

[Brandish μ]

he will not be relevant fighter at EoS

Sanji will be roughly as relevant as Scopper Gaban was for Roger, EOS, I imagine. Should be able to take on an admiral (edit) with an okay chance to win.

 

[Shasha23]

Sanji will be roughly as relevant as Scopper Gaban was for Roger, EOS, I imagine. Should be able to take on an admiral (edit) with an okay chance to win.

I highly doubt that, for me i have always viewed that EoS Sanji will be roughly the same level as Marco, he will be strong enough to duke it out with an admiral but won't be strong enough to beat 1.

Given new information about Page One i believe he might be Sanji's final opponent in Wano, he is durable and wasnt taking damage from Sanji, this fight will force Sanji to slowly improve his CoA to a decent level and he will be able to win thanks to that.

 

[nik87]

Sanji will be roughly as relevant as Scopper Gaban was for Roger, EOS, I imagine. Should be able to take on an admiral (edit) with an okay chance to win.

That feels like a dream, to be honest, unless Oda creates an Admiral with a fitting combat style so that Sanji stands a chance.
Anything with high lethality is off-limits for Sanji, imo.

 

[Brandish μ]

I highly doubt that, for me i have always viewed that EoS Sanji will be roughly the same level as Marco, he will be strong enough to duke it out with an admiral but won't be strong enough to beat 1.

Given new information about Page One i believe he might be Sanji's final opponent in Wano, he is durable and wasnt taking damage from Sanji, this fight will force Sanji to slowly improve his CoA to a decent level and he will be able to win thanks to that.

Maybe. But I would think Luffy's crew have to be better than WB's if we're talking about surpassing Roger. And I'm sort of thinking all roads end at fighting the WG, and perhaps characters like Sanji will be responsible for fighting Admirals at that point.

That feels like a dream, to be honest, unless Oda creates an Admiral with a fitting combat style so that Sanji stands a chance.
Anything with high lethality is off-limits for Sanji, imo.

Kizaru?

 

[Shasha23]

Maybe. But I would think Luffy's crew have to be better than WB's if we're talking about surpassing Roger. And I'm sort of thinking all roads end at fighting the WG, and perhaps characters like Sanji will be responsible for fighting Admirals at that point.

They will since Luffy's crew will have Zoro a yonko level fighter whilst also having Sanji and Jinbe who will be as strong as Marco, not even the Roger pirates would compete with that. The end game wont be Strawhats vs WG it will be SH+RA+Heart-Pirates+Kid-Pirates+Allies vs WG, in that list there will be multiple people stronger than Sanji who will fight the admirals, it would be more like:
Luffy vs Kong
Sabo vs Akainu
Zoro vs Fujitora
Law/Kid vs Kizaru/Greenbul
(I believe Luffy will defeat Greenbul/Kizaru before the final fight)

At this point and how things are going the probability of Sanji being capable of beating a yonko level fighter is zero.

 

[nik87]

Kizaru?

Way too powerful, way too lethal especially if he fights with a sword. Besides, he has unfinished business with Zoro.

 

[King Moe]

Maybe, but why not show us Page One utterly destroyed? To keep us in suspense? I don't think Page One is that important a character, nor is the power of the RS something we need to be kept out of the loop about. Maybe it's more about Sanji's RS not being complete. He's going to get it upgraded, so unveiling it properly (named techniques and how it will look moving fwd), will wait for later. And to showcase the upgrades, Sanji will defeat Page One completely and with ease. That seems like my guess having wrote about it a bit.

I agree Zoro's going for Orochi. Sanji's not exactly set yet on any opponent. I think Drake is going to be involved with him somehow. Sanji would also be driven by the food crisis on Wano, as a personal motivator on top of fighting as a SH.



I don't think Sanji without or with RS is YC level right now based on feats. For example, I don't believe he can't beat Jack unless he develops within that fight against Jack. He's going to win against someone strong this arc - it might be King/Queen/Jack, and he will empty the kitchen sink to do so. Or he may get assistance, like Luffy did vs Cracker. Or it could be an all out fight against Drake.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 22, 2020 ---

I think that Wano's secrets, history, and how there's also Orochi in the mix makes it almost impossible for Sanji to just unravel it all after stepping off the boat. I'm a proponent of Sanji doing something like this but it's needs to be believable and conserve others' credibility too. He might be able to effect something during the upcoming battle/war. If it's like Marineford, there were some tactics employed by Sengoku and WB iirc and maybe Sanji can do similar. That said he doesn't need to be some tactician lol particularly when he'll be required on the ground as a fighter.

If it was suspense, we would get hints he is fine after the fight or narration help push that, but it just been quiet about him since the fight, so something had to happen to not continue and looking more defeat than him simply quitting and running away. It looks off even if knowing Oda as he wouldn't be be that quiet on someone coming back.

If he is going to face King or Queen, it looking to be him at their level with or without RS as doubt Sanji stops fighting without his suit as doesn't make sense at all. He going to be like Luffy in evolving through a fight and get stronger as it continue, I doubt Drake is more suitable seeing PO wouldn't withstand much of Sanji's attacks and that just using Base.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2020 ---

Way too powerful, way too lethal especially if he fights with a sword. Besides, he has unfinished business with Zoro.

Nah, Zoro is a scrub, he get destroyed easier than what Kamazou did to him.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2020 ---

They will since Luffy's crew will have Zoro a yonko level fighter whilst also having Sanji and Jinbe who will be as strong as Marco, not even the Roger pirates would compete with that. The end game wont be Strawhats vs WG it will be SH+RA+Heart-Pirates+Kid-Pirates+Allies vs WG, in that list there will be multiple people stronger than Sanji who will fight the admirals, it would be more like:
Luffy vs Kong
Sabo vs Akainu
Zoro vs Fujitora
Law/Kid vs Kizaru/Greenbul
(I believe Luffy will defeat Greenbul/Kizaru before the final fight)

At this point and how things are going the probability of Sanji being capable of beating a yonko level fighter is zero.

Nah, Sanji will be up there with main forces, but Zoro is having harder time keeping up if his last fight had him fainting last time we saw him. Sanji is being pushed more as heavy forces than Zoro even in same arc and I don't see those you put in would face the others as that doesn't make sense on Law and Kidd going with them to face off in war in the fight, but could be another WG Trio fight perhaps. Though Sanji has better chances being up there than Zoro does in the long run as we already seen how much Zoro is push and it's not good.

Stop using Anime non-canon to push something when manga is saying something differently unless your now saying Zoro can't beat someone like Batman and fodders without Haki each time he uses it.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Anything less than Admital level for Sanji is not unbelievable. "Lethality" gets thrown around (many) by you nik. But that has never been an issue in the manga. Not a single person talks about the lethality of a person.

In the end I think Sanji, Zoro, and Jinbei reach Admiral/Yonko level and become the new "Monster Trio" of the Pirate King. Those that think Sanji won't at least reach that level are few and far between.

At worst Sanji reaches Katakuri Level with FS that could nearly put him on par with an Admiral.

IDK, if he get defeat Queen this arc, there no question as there wouldn't be much futher to go.

 

[King Moe]

PageOne is the ideal opponent for Sanji.
Barehanded, doesnt seem to use CoO, tanky so Sanji can knock himself out on him without being in grave danger.
If he is Sanjino's major fight of the arc, the worst fears will come true, he will not be relevant fighter at EoS, unless Oda pulls a rabbit out of the hat.

Maybe there is some Okama kenpo up his sleeve which he is too embarrassed to use or some planned development to boost him up significantly but so far, it doesnt look good, it is a crime to compare him with Zoro but I know that's the favourite thing to do, however, it creates an illusion about Sanji's power level.

Nah, though Zoro can share it with him before facing Orochi since he need redemption more and can't handle big leagues compare to Sanji. Also unlike Sanji won't get stronger in EOS as now your just spouting stuff over non-canon anime stuff, so by that logic Zoro is even in more weaker strife since he lost out to Batman and using Haki on fodders if you want to play up like that.

Nah, he doesn't, but Zoro could have something to beat in EOS involved in his concerns of 'not cutting naked man' so that be interesting while Sanji is taking on big leagues with up Haki and DJ power.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 22, 2020 ---

I highly doubt that, for me i have always viewed that EoS Sanji will be roughly the same level as Marco, he will be strong enough to duke it out with an admiral but won't be strong enough to beat 1.

Given new information about Page One i believe he might be Sanji's final opponent in Wano, he is durable and wasnt taking damage from Sanji, this fight will force Sanji to slowly improve his CoA to a decent level and he will be able to win thanks to that.

New info is non-canon from the anime, so if you want go by that logic, Zoro using Haki on his fodder opponents despite in manga he didn't is now new canon since he can't do it by regular use and Luffy and Zoro couldn't take out Batman make them look weaker in exchange and why should they push above if that is the case?

Page One isn't the one especially manga shows nothing him returning since fight and anime scene could be miscommunication on situation tan actually canon especially we don't use that for anime reference unless they did same scene as in manga.

Sanji going to face bigger leagues like King or Queen who if you want try anime stuff, foreshadow both being opponents given they can do fiery kicks, so that been set in stone about it.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2020 ---

That feels like a dream, to be honest, unless Oda creates an Admiral with a fitting combat style so that Sanji stands a chance.
Anything with high lethality is off-limits for Sanji, imo.

Nah, just your headcannon just like you were already talking big Zoro will be facing serious opponent and beating many in his wake, but look what manga shows in him being hype tool for 4 fights. Plus you even argue against me when I stated he could take an huge L and lose his sword again which turn out to be right too.

Stop using anime scene to justify it unless your now going back on your word anime is all canon which it isn't. Sanji is going to take care of stronger and tougher enemies as they evolve as main forces, that's a given and shown about it.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 22, 2020 ---

Maybe. But I would think Luffy's crew have to be better than WB's if we're talking about surpassing Roger. And I'm sort of thinking all roads end at fighting the WG, and perhaps characters like Sanji will be responsible for fighting Admirals at that point.



Kizaru?

Pretty sure it be before EOS since after Wano Arc, they could head to WG if Elbaf Arc won't be right away to save Sabo after hearing the news and Luffy might not seat quiet on that given what happen to Ace.

 

[Shasha23]

Anything less than Admital level for Sanji is not unbelievable. "Lethality" gets thrown around (many) by you nik. But that has never been an issue in the manga. Not a single person talks about the lethality of a person.

In the end I think Sanji, Zoro, and Jinbei reach Admiral/Yonko level and become the new "Monster Trio" of the Pirate King. Those that think Sanji won't at least reach that level are few and far between.

At worst Sanji reaches Katakuri Level with FS that could nearly put him on par with an Admiral.

IDK, if he get defeat Queen this arc, there no question as there wouldn't be much futher to go.

That is just too much, its impossible for that many people to be yonko level in 1 crew, not even the Roger Pirates where that powerful or even came close to that level of power.
I put only Zoro on yonko level because of Mihawk if not for him i wouldn't put him that high, but for Sanji and Jinbe to be that level is impossible, especially for Jinbe who has already reached his peak if not close to it.
I think Sanji will be above Katakuri and more around Marco's level, he will just be above 1st commander and just below yonko level while Jinbe will be 1st commander level.

 

[nik87]

Zoro is a scrub

Don't be upset and don't lash out at Zoro. Your beef is not with Zoro or with me, your beef is with Toei but more with yourself actually since you can't blame anyone else for elevating Sanji based on things which he didn't do. Think better next time and use less headcanon, otherwise digging your own grave is all you can expect.

 

[Pirate Queen]

That is just too much, its impossible for that many people to be yonko level in 1 crew, not even the Roger Pirates where that powerful or even came close to that level of power.
I put only Zoro on yonko level because of Mihawk if not for him i wouldn't put him that high, but for Sanji and Jinbe to be that level is impossible, especially for Jinbe who has already reached his peak if not close to it.
I think Sanji will be above Katakuri and more around Marco's level, he will just be above 1st commander and just below yonko level while Jinbe will be 1st commander level.

It doesnt seem to be out of the realm of possibility for sure.

I think Oda enjoys the Sanji/Zoro rivalry too much for them to be too different power level wise. But we will see.