I think any of the two All stars(Queen and King) will do for both Marco and Sanji due to their abilities like Marco's regeneration plus his ability to fly and there's Sanji's speed plus his observation haki and also ability to fly with his RS. But I'm leaning more on Queen being Sanji's opponent since it seems Queen has some connections to Judge but I could be wrong though we'll see.
Think both know Germa are to be honest and not necessarily given factor Queen can't really take him while flying unlike King and Marco still needs to head up up there too. Though think most fights will move up there with the 2 Yonkos soon.
Marco states he want to up there though given 2 Yonkos will be to much there. Can't see just 5 Supernovas going be enough especially 2 of them not Supernova Captains. Going to be a big team battle on Kaido and Big Mom soon.
true, smoker might be too much for sanji to take on. Maybe sanji vs sentomaru, then? Sentomaru is a guy from the science division and RS is a science-based power
true, smoker might be too much for sanji to take on. Maybe sanji vs sentomaru, then? Sentomaru is a guy from the science division and RS is a science-based power
PH Arc, Both Smoker & Sanji are under Vergo.
However Smoker tried much harder than Sanji ever did; & He got beat black & blue.
Sanji’s DJ moves imo during PH are stronger than Smoker’s CoA. I think Smoker has slightly more durability & endurance because of his Haki. But Sanji combat skills are better & would land mutilple blows compared to Smoker’s single strikes
Comparing performances against Vergo is silly, because this isn't DBZ, and because both had different conditions to the fights that makes it hard to gauge their strengths. So far, Smoker's strength seemed to come from him being a logia and untouchable, but since Sanji knows CoA, Smoker isn't untouchable anymore.
When's the last time Smoker had a good showing? Sanji at least has won most of his fights.
Not a fair comparison since Smoker has had barely any appearances, but since you put it that way, I'll ask you exactly what fights has Sanji won since Punk Hazard.
PH Arc, Both Smoker & Sanji are under Vergo.
However Smoker tried much harder than Sanji ever did; & He got beat black & blue.
Sanji’s DJ moves imo during PH are stronger than Smoker’s CoA. I think Smoker has slightly more durability & endurance because of his Haki. But Sanji combat skills are better & would land mutilple blows compared to Smoker’s single strikes
True, they were both under Vergo and they were both defeated, but the thing with Vergo and Sanji is that they are very similar fighters since they're both melee fighters. Melee fighters in the manga now base their victories around who has the best haki. It's only if their haki is similar that other aspects of their fighting styles matter, but this was not the case between Vergo and Sanji: Vergo was overwhelmingly stronger in that arc.
That being said, yes, Smoker was also entirely outclassed in his fight, but it took longer for that to be evident between them, and Vergo went much more all out with his haki and his bamboo stick (and yes, it matters that he used his bamboo, because it's what gave Vergo his epithet, which means his real fighting style revolves around using that bamboo stick that he didn't pull out against Sanji).
Sanji is strong, and he has haki to hurt Smoker, but Smoker is strong, has haki too, and is more versatile.
This is only my personal opinion, but feat-wise Sanji hasn't done anything for me to say he's definitely above Smoker, which is why I only give him the assured victory with the Raid Suit. This will change depending who he beats up in Wano.
Sanji currently is at least YC3 and at most YC1 level with the RS.
If Sanji can wreck Page 1 without sustaining damage and endure a peircing attack from King... Smoker isn't doing shit to Sanji.
Smoker's versatility doesn't mean shit because Sanji has haki. His DF is a disadvantage and makes him a bigger target. Sanji is faster, hits harder, and has objectively handled damage better than Smoker has (without Raid Suit)
Sanji currently is at least YC3 and at most YC1 level with the RS.
If Sanji can wreck Page 1 without sustaining damage and endure a peircing attack from King... Smoker isn't doing shit to Sanji.
Smoker's versatility doesn't mean shit because Sanji has haki. His DF is a disadvantage and makes him a bigger target. Sanji is faster, hits harder, and has objectively handled damage better than Smoker has (without Raid Suit)
Sanji never wrecked Page One, the 2 clashed and after Sanji stopped him from rampaging he ran away from him, that is not wrecking!
Sanji is not the only one with haki, Smoker has it too. The reason Smoker became a bigger target was because he was fooling Vergo into not focusing on Law's heart, Vergo even pointed it out that Smoker was fighting strangely and that it was not how he fights.
Sanji doesnt hit harder, his hits couldnt even damage Vergo while Smoker was able to make Vergo bleed even while he was defending himself with CoA, while Vergo didnt even block Sanji or even tried to use CoA to defend, so Smoker definitely hits harder.
Sanji doesnt even have 1 decent CoA feat, how is that better than Smoker?
Also look at their clashes with Doffy, the shichibukai was trying vs Smoker and still couldnt bring him down and it only took him using the G5 marines as targets forcing Smoker to take the hit, while Doffy didnt even try vs Sanji and outright beat him with no effort.
Anyway for now Sanji has Smoker beat in speed, CoO and durability thanks to RS but Smoker is physically stronger, more mobile and has better CoA, until Sanji can show more feats he is now weaker until she shows better CoA feats than Smoker.
Smoker's versatility doesn't mean shit because Sanji has haki. His DF is a disadvantage and makes him a bigger target. Sanji is faster, hits harder, and has objectively handled damage better than Smoker has (without Raid Suit)
Objectively, Smoker has handled damage better without the Raid Suit: Smoker took less damage from direct hits by Vergo's weapon of choice while Sanji took more damage from Vergo's first attack without a weapon.
It is not true that the DF is a disadvantage nor that it makes him a bigger target. Just like Ace and any other logia, he can become smoke or create smoke, but not every smoke he creates and controls is part of his body.
Just like cutting through Kizaru's laser beams does not hurt Kizaru, stabbing Akainu's volcanic rocks does not hurt him or burning Aokiji's ice bird attack does not burn him, Smoker deploying smoke to attack from afar does not make him a bigger target.
Also look at their clashes with Doffy, the shichibukai was trying vs Smoker and still couldnt bring him down and it only took him using the G5 marines as targets forcing Smoker to take the hit, while Doffy didnt even try vs Sanji and outright beat him with no effort.
I've just reread the Vergo vs Sanji and Vergo vs Smoker fights and it's even more evident than I remembered.
First, on Vergo's attitude:
Vergo tanked with tekkai (Sanji recognized the technique) both a "suckerkick" and a direct Diable Jambe from Sanji and then went on to immediately maim him with a kick. He was unimpressed by his strength, even if Sanji was obviously strong enough to put on a fight and make him bleed.
However, against Smoker, Vergo didn't even try to block him once without using his signature weapon. He went serious from the get go. That means that Vergo took him as more than a threat than Sanji even after taking head-on one of Sanji's strongest kicks at the time.
Now, on actual feats:
Despite Vergo going more all-out against him than against Sanji, Smoker stopped one of Vergo's kicks with his leg and got no damage from it, showed his versatility by using CoO together with his logia powers to dodge some of Vergo's attacks and got multiple haki-coated hits in that Vergo didn't manage to stop despite being shown to be actually trying.
Indeed, Vergo mentions that the reason for Smoker's defeat is that he was using his logia powers to turn into smoke and expand too much, becoming a larger target, but one page later we learn that he did so to steal Law's heart from Vergo's clothes and giving it back to Law without Vergo even noticing, which means Smoker was both more focused on stealing than on actually defeating Vergo and that he wasn't even using his real fighting style on him.
Still, Vergo didn't use his full-body haki coating on Smoker so it's likely that Vergo was still stronger than him even if Smoker had focused on defeating him, but now that I have read the fight again, Smoker is protrayed as being extremely close to Vergo's level, so even stronger than Sanji than I remembered.
About logia powers, there are still ways to use them without "becoming a larger target", since Smoker can still produce and control smoke without becoming it just like every other logia has attacks based around their elements without their bodies being actual parts of the attacks. And on the topic of becoming smoke, it can still be used for defense to dodge attacks that he perhaps wouldn't have been fast enough to dodge otherwise. Before he started getting hit while recovering Law's heart, Smoker did show efficiency in becoming smoke to dodge and counterpunch Vergo without being hit.
One Piece might not be like Dragon Ball and there sure are nuances to some of the encounters, but there are power levels. Sanji is likely to surpass Smoker (if he hasn't already done so with the Raid Suit, which I think he has) but at Punk Hazard he was still beneath him if we compare their performances on the island. Sadly, their little adventure on Punk Hazard it's the only actual canon comparisons we can do between them until Sanji defeats anyone that's for sure stronger than Vergo. This has not happened yet, so even saying he's stronger than Smoker with Raid Suit is a blind assumption, but I'm sure it will happen before Wano is over. It's the arc for the strawhats (and the monster trio in particular) to reach new heights, after all.
I'm not taking Sanji wrecking Page 1 into consideration because he didn't wreck him in the manga.
King's feat is valid, but Sanji still has his face as a big target. Raid Suit's defenses are not perfect.
Smoker has haki too.
Objectively, Smoker has handled damage better without the Raid Suit: Smoker took less damage from direct hits by Vergo's weapon of choice while Sanji took more damage from Vergo's first attack without a weapon.
It is not true that the DF is a disadvantage nor that it makes him a bigger target. Just like Ace and any other logia, he can become smoke or create smoke, but not every smoke he creates and controls is part of his body.
Just like cutting through Kizaru's laser beams does not hurt Kizaru, stabbing Akainu's volcanic rocks does not hurt him or burning Aokiji's ice bird attack does not burn him, Smoker deploying smoke to attack from afar does not make him a bigger target.
Sanji only has better CoO feats so far.
Never did I say Smoker is stronger because he's a logia.
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We're arguing the same thing but I don't agree with this point unless I have forgotten something.
Didn't Doflamingo deal with Smoker just as easily as with Sanji? I don't remember Doflamingo needing hostages.
The last panel of their fight left Sanji using a dive bomb kick and Page 1 screaming out in pain. We don't see P1 after that fight and XDrake is alone the remainder of his search for Sabo Mask. You shouldn't need to use the context clues to understand what that means. Anime isn't needed.
I never said that you said Smoker is stronger because he is a logia. You did however say Smoker is more versatile which is completely baseless.
As for CoA feats. Even though Luffy didn't fight back, Sanji was still powerful enough to deal heavy damage to Luffy which is impressive from a CoA standpoint. Much better CoA showing against Luffy who capable of tanking massive amounts of damage.
Smoker doesn't have a CoA feat in the same ballpark as Sanji.
I've just reread the Vergo vs Sanji and Vergo vs Smoker fights and it's even more evident than I remembered.
First, on Vergo's attitude:
Vergo tanked with tekkai (Sanji recognized the technique) both a "suckerkick" and a direct Diable Jambe from Sanji and then went on to immediately maim him with a kick. He was unimpressed by his strength, even if Sanji was obviously strong enough to put on a fight and make him bleed.
However, against Smoker, Vergo didn't even try to block him once without using his signature weapon. He went serious from the get go. That means that Vergo took him as more than a threat than Sanji even after taking head-on one of Sanji's strongest kicks at the time.
Now, on actual feats:
Despite Vergo going more all-out against him than against Sanji, Smoker stopped one of Vergo's kicks with his leg and got no damage from it, showed his versatility by using CoO together with his logia powers to dodge some of Vergo's attacks and got multiple haki-coated hits in that Vergo didn't manage to stop despite being shown to be actually trying.
Indeed, Vergo mentions that the reason for Smoker's defeat is that he was using his logia powers to turn into smoke and expand too much, becoming a larger target, but one page later we learn that he did so to steal Law's heart from Vergo's clothes and giving it back to Law without Vergo even noticing, which means Smoker was both more focused on stealing than on actually defeating Vergo and that he wasn't even using his real fighting style on him.
Still, Vergo didn't use his full-body haki coating on Smoker so it's likely that Vergo was still stronger than him even if Smoker had focused on defeating him, but now that I have read the fight again, Smoker is protrayed as being extremely close to Vergo's level, so even stronger than Sanji than I remembered.
About logia powers, there are still ways to use them without "becoming a larger target", since Smoker can still produce and control smoke without becoming it just like every other logia has attacks based around their elements without their bodies being actual parts of the attacks. And on the topic of becoming smoke, it can still be used for defense to dodge attacks that he perhaps wouldn't have been fast enough to dodge otherwise. Before he started getting hit while recovering Law's heart, Smoker did show efficiency in becoming smoke to dodge and counterpunch Vergo without being hit.
One Piece might not be like Dragon Ball and there sure are nuances to some of the encounters, but there are power levels. Sanji is likely to surpass Smoker (if he hasn't already done so with the Raid Suit, which I think he has) but at Punk Hazard he was still beneath him if we compare their performances on the island. Sadly, their little adventure on Punk Hazard it's the only actual canon comparisons we can do between them until Sanji defeats anyone that's for sure stronger than Vergo. This has not happened yet, so even saying he's stronger than Smoker with Raid Suit is a blind assumption, but I'm sure it will happen before Wano is over. It's the arc for the strawhats (and the monster trio in particular) to reach new heights, after all.
The last panel of their fight left Sanji using a dive bomb kick and Page 1 screaming out in pain. We don't see P1 after that fight and XDrake is alone the remainder of his search for Sabo Mask. You shouldn't need to use the context clues to understand what that means. Anime isn't needed.
Yet there was never any mention of Page 1 having been defeated, not even after his reappearance, and there's no visible damage, scar, or at least any mention of wanting to get revenge. He was not scared of going after Luffy days after "being whooped" by Sanji. Sanji supposedly stayed behind to fight him "to take down an enemy officer before the big fights", but it doesn't look like he achieved anything on that regard.
It simply does not fit, so no, I don't believe Sanji beat anyone there. Which doesn't mean Page One is stronger than Sanji either: Sanji was dominating him before the scene was cut, but everything points towards Sanji ending up running away probably because of enemy reinforcements coming in and Page One simply not going down.
As for CoA feats. Even though Luffy didn't fight back, Sanji was still powerful enough to deal heavy damage to Luffy which is impressive from a CoA standpoint. Much better CoA showing against Luffy who capable of tanking massive amounts of damage.
Smoker doesn't have a CoA feat in the same ballpark as Sanji.
1: I only said in my original comment that Smoker was stronger than Sanji on Punk Hazard. I've never said it's impossible for him to have somehow surpassed him afterwards. Sanji has continually been getting stronger from arc to arc without training and without barely fighting anyone, just magically keeping up with Zoro, so it is possible ha has since surpassed Smoker. Something from two arcs later compared to the Smoker we last saw on PH is not a fair comparison.
2: I see no feat here. Usually, in a fight, Luffy doesn't only fight back: he tries to block or defend. In his "fight" with Sanji, he didn't even raise an arm so it stands to reason that he didn't even use haki to defend against any of the kicks. A base Luffy that doesn't even use haki to mitigate attacks (and whose rubber properties are entirely nullified by being kicked with haki, so with literally 0 of his usual endurance against blows) taking some of Sanji's strongest kicks (diable jambe and concassé) straight to the head. I'm being honest here: I was very underwhelmed when I first read that chapter and saw that was all the damage Luffy took.
So even if we were to take that scene into consideration, Smoker's hits vs Vergo are still a better showing than that.
I admitted that Vergo was likely to beat Smoker even if Smoker had focused on defeating him instead of on stealing. Smoker's showings were just above Sanji's in the arc.
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But I'll add something else after re-reading this all: Law wasn't that much above Smoker either. He didn't low-diff him at all. Before re-reading this I thought Law > Vergo >> Smoker > Sanji (strictly speaking of Punk Hazard), but now I'll say that Law ≥ Vergo ≥ Smoker > Sanji.
There's the argument that I'm surprised no one has made that "Sanji's body was already badly damaged before he faced Vergo", which is true, it can be argued that Sanji was nerfed against Vergo and it's entirely a fair comment. However, we can't tell for sure by how much, so we can't say he would have managed better than Smoker. This is the deal: Sanji was nerfed because his body was damaged, but Smoker was nerfed because he was purposefully becoming a larger target and focusing on stealing something from Vergo rather than properly blocking and hitting him.
So, both Sanji and Smoker were handicapped by an uncountable ammount in their respective fights against Vergo, which means everything in this post still holds true: Smoker had much better showings against the same opponent in the same arc, even if both him and Sanji could have done better if there was no context to their fight.
The last panel of their fight left Sanji using a dive bomb kick and Page 1 screaming out in pain. We don't see P1 after that fight and XDrake is alone the remainder of his search for Sabo Mask. You shouldn't need to use the context clues to understand what that means. Anime isn't needed.
The fact it ended on such an implicit note and there was no return to the scene or continuation... that at least suggested to me Sanji won that fight. I don't think Oda needs to elaborate on it much further. It seemed pretty conclusive to me.
As for CoA feats. Even though Luffy didn't fight back, Sanji was still powerful enough to deal heavy damage to Luffy which is impressive from a CoA standpoint. Much better CoA showing against Luffy who capable of tanking massive amounts of damage.
This to be fair... actually does make Sanji look bad.
Luffy took Sanji's best shots without defending himself. He didn't defend with CoA.
Luffy came out against Sanji with only losing a tooth. If someone like Jimbei or Katakuri used CoA and his best techniques against a defenceless Luffy... I would be expecting more than the loss of teeth.
I think the real issue is Oda hasn't developed Sanji as much as he has for Luffy and Zoro. Sanji is almost like the Monster Trio, but Buggy. He's almost a comic gag with the way Oda utilises him constantly. Even in this arc, he gets a backhanded compliment. He's shown to have better Observation Haki in terms of sensing presences compared to Luffy, but in the end, he's shown in a rather unserious scenario.
Sanji hasn't looked good since Enies Lobby imo. Things got bad for Sanji ever since Thriller Bark which is when Zoro knocked him out. No idea why Oda has chosen to go down this path with Sanji, but I can only hope he gets better representation.
Even the Raid Suit imo is a disservice... his power-up is a power that comes from the family whom he resents and mistreated him... although, he only got the suit because of acknowledgement. While the suit was given to him because they've acknowledged his power, the fact he needs to use it is like:
Coming from a family where your parents think you're a failure. You leave home, go to University, get your degree in a degree they do not even acknowledge, and then start your own business. They openly discredit you and disown you, but then give you $50,000 dollars which you use to improve your business.
The business significantly begins to prosper and do better now. In a sense, these parents that hate you, but gave away this "pity grant" can almost be credited for your business' success.
I have to say, I have utterly hated how Oda has written Sanji and I hope I'm just judging prematurely. Maybe in the end, we'll be satisfied, but at the moment... it's not looking great.
