Canon Shanks vs Mihawk

[BlackHair]

However, with all the BEASTS in the world in your crew there is nothing stopping them from easily being wiped out by the Marines without that one Captain that can outright beatdown the Admirals.

You are talking like as if WB fought the high tiers entirely alone. Didn't you see Marco, Vista and Jozu handling the Admirals/Mihwak etc? There is no character who can take care of several high tier fighters at the same time. With all respect to WB, he is not a god, he would be dead in 3 seconds if he was alone. Akainu took half of his face. Now imagine while he fights Akainu, Kizaru behind him and Aokiji from the left.

It took 3 Admirals, Blackbeards crew, plus some to take down a 77 year old SICK man with a HOLE in his chest. That is what it takes to be a Yonkou.

Well firstly those who you mentioned didn't attack WB the the same time. Secondly we are talking here about Whitebeard, not Shanks. Even if he was a Yonko, he was still the strongest man alive. So plz don't talk like Shanks was his equal. He was portrayed as the ultimate strongest.

Example from the manga? Morias crew was wiped out completely by a Yonkou, yet Moria is still a Schichibukai.

That fight was offpanel. We don't know the circumstance. So it's not clear if Kaido fought him alone or with his crew. But given the fact that pirates fights in crew, he was probably with them. Anyway, you are also forgetting that Moria fought him evenly.

For the Strongest swordsman debate, look at real life sports. You can be the best hitter in baseball, but not the best player. You need to be good all around.

Exactly, so with that agreed let me ask you: do you think Mihawk has only swordsmanship? Look at Zoro, he has tremendous physical strength equal to Luffy if not even more. Also he displayed endurance and other attributes. Mihawk didn't win a contest in swordsmanship to earn that title nor did he apply it at the supermarket. He got it through fighting and winning in battles.

There are more factors to calculate other than swordsmanship to determine the best swordsman. His title puts Mwk above everyone who are using swordsmanship as their primary fighting skill. But that doesn't necessarily say he has the best swordsmanship. Infact there could be still a better man in pure swordsmanship (for instance this shadow dude). Other factor would be agility, brutal strength, stamina, experience, will (haki) etc. IF you are playing a RPG game u know what Im talking about. The one with all around good attributes in these factor is the best.

In short Im saying that Mwk's title doesn't say "the best guy in swordsmanship", but rather "the strongest swordsman among swordsman". To be the strongest you need more than one skill (swordsmanship).

It wasn't until a single extremely powerful individual stepped in (Rayleigh) that the playing field was made even.

That single individual wasn't fighting the MHQ like the WB-Pirates did, he just fought a single Admiral.

Kuma has no crew.... NOR WAS ANY SHICHIBUKAI ASKED TO BRING THEIR CREW TO THE WAR. To get a title such as Shichibukai, Admiral, or Yonkou it is all about the individual.

You are making a big mistake by putting them in one basket. I will use the equilibrium of the three great powers to explain why.

• To be a Admiral you need to be strong and follow the marine codex. Eventually you will get promoted. In this case I agree. The strength of a Admiral is all about individual. However they also fight together as a army of MHQ.
• To get the title Shichibukai you need a bounty/reputation and proof ur strength. Same case, all about individual strength. However these powergroup are considered united. So yes they were not asked to bring their crew, but they were grouped together. 7 individual ppl build a group.
• To get the title of a Yonko is clearly a crew (+captain) achievement. Garp clearly said the MHQ and the 7Gods exist to counterbalance the Yonko. The Yonko are not united and even if, to fight and survive against such a powerful alliance you need ur crew. Garp also said that a Yonko rules over the NW as a emperors would do. To rule you need a army/subordinates. Army and territory defines a emperors power.

Moreover the current arc proofs my point. To face MHQ + 7 Gods, WB brought his alliance along. Yonko are nothing more than pirate crew. Pirate crews are fighting in armies, best example is the entire manga. So while the Yonko (leader) is certainly the strongest out of them, their crew is also pretty dangerous. As Shanks threatened the MHQ and BB Pirates, he clearly said we will face you. If Shanks was alone and never had a crew to begin with, he would be just like as a Shichi at most.

Im just saying organisations as the MHQ, 7 Gods and Yonko are fighting their battles in armies/groups.

Edit: Just noticed that I didn't rly focused on ur quotes. Sry about going offtopic. I was doing a break while writing this. Lost my train of thoughts.

 

[mengoz]

I think Mihawk could beat Shanks in a fight, but Shank's Haki would make him more formidable against other opponents; logia users and such.

 

[DLord.Van.Buuren]

Why are you guys not satisfied with the conclusion that Shanks is a fucking strong dude and so mis mihawk and so was WB. It was stated by Oda even. So...their strong it doesn't really matter what the exact relation between them is. I thought one piece is a little different from Dragonball or bleach.

well said man . i think that too .

the reaction of mihawk upon seeing shanks holds lot of meaning it doesnt matter if they arent equal because its not something we could bet on they will probably never fight again thats what i concluded .
we'll probably see some hints tho but their interaction is probably irrelevant to the main story .

 

[Antares]

Whitebeard is the strongest man in the world. In his prime. Now? Let's review. In his fight against Akainu, the admiral said, "even you cannot escape from the effects of age". His health had gotten much worse, otherwise like a quote from Marco, he would have able to avoid a sneak attack even from the ones he thought as friends, even if he was taken off-guard. And Whitebeard, a dying man with a stab in his heart and magma piercing in that very hole and a gangbang from who knows how many marines and two Admirals namely Yellow Monkey and Red Dog, Pops was still stronger than Akainu.

But was Pops, at this Marineford Arc, stronger than Sengoku or Garp? I don't think so. Each one of those two strongest marine should at the very least be able to equal him now, due to those handicaps Oda given him. Please remember that the old strongest had already greatly deteriorated in this war. His Haoushoku wasn't even able to create Luffy's Haoushoku blast. He wasn't even able to completely penetrate Logia intangibility most of the time, otherwise Kizaru would suffer the same defeat as Akainu.

---

Let's see Marco. I would put him at admiral level. He was able to block Akainu's magma equally, and Kizaru's victory over him was mainly because he was diverted between fighting the admiral and helping Pops.

Let's see Jozu, Ace, Crocodile and Vista. I would put them below admiral level, no matter how small. Let's call this Shichibukai level. Jozu could hurt Crocodile, Doflamingo could not control him completely, he could hurt Aokiji yet in the end he got his hand separated by Ice Saber. Ace was owned by Akainu, and he was also owned by the one and only special-case Shichibukai, Teach. Crocodile was equally match when fighting Doflamingo, and Croc was also involved with a balanced sword-and-hook fight against Mihawk. Vista fought Mihawk equally for quite a while until their battle disturbed by Pacifista attack. These premises convinced me that:

1. Shanks's main skill is not swordsmanship, because
2. Mihawk, the world's number one swordsman, is in Shichibukai tier.

Shanks used diplomacy in Marineford arc's end? Yes. Did he try to calm everyone? Yes. Did he offer peace? Yes. Did he plead for peace? NO. Haki is a threatening force used to intimidate and imbue also strengthen attack. The effect of "win over animals as if by talking to them" was only a result of the creatures (Motobaro, Crazy Wolves in Impel Down) being intimidated.

Shanks challenged anyone, Shanks challenged everyone. And see that stare toward Blackbeard. That was doubtlessly a personal challenge, and Supersaiyan Blackbeard backed off. Teach previously taunted both Sengoku and Garp, then Shanks challenged him openly, and Teach backed off.

My conclusion in this post:

Shanks was not a swordsman like Zoro or Mihawk is a swordsman, because it would break the consistency of the whole Marineford Arc's end which displayed such power of his presence alone.

 

[bittman]

Few things here:

Let's see Marco. I would put him at admiral level. He was able to block Akainu's magma equally, and Kizaru's victory over him was mainly because he was diverted between fighting the admiral and helping Pops.

If you get distracted for 3 seconds and that gets you defeated, then it's not a close match at all. Luffy got distracted plenty in his battle with Lucchi, he still fought on. The only thing Marco has that is admiral level would be his survivability thanks to his devil fruit. None of the admirals really showed any true struggle against Marco. Kizaru seemed to be toying with him (then again Kizaru toys with everyone) and Akainu healed from the haki slash without blood. Defence: admiral level, that I'd agree with. Everything else, not so much.

Let's see Jozu, Ace, Crocodile and Vista. I would put them below admiral level, no matter how small. Let's call this Shichibukai level. Jozu could hurt Crocodile, Doflamingo could not control him completely, he could hurt Aokiji yet in the end he got his hand separated by Ice Saber. Ace was owned by Akainu, and he was also owned by the one and only special-case Shichibukai, Teach. Crocodile was equally match when fighting Doflamingo, and Croc was also involved with a balanced sword-and-hook fight against Mihawk. Vista fought Mihawk equally for quite a while until their battle disturbed by Pacifista attack. These premises convinced me that:

Doflamingo could not control who? You think he was there struggling to hold Jozu back do you? Whilst sitting on him? I saw Crocodile fight a million people, if you think he was "equal" to Doflamingo, then he is also "equal" to Akainu and Luffy (two people CLEARLY on different tiers).

1. Shanks's main skill is not swordsmanship, because
2. Mihawk, the world's number one swordsman, is in Shichibukai tier.

So is his main skill headbutting people? Luffy's main skill is physical combat. His devil fruit, haki and strength all just suplement that. Everything I've seen from Shanks says his "main skill" is swordsmanship, and that anything else he has (including Hakoushou) is only a suplement to this.

And there is no Shichibukai tier. Unless you believe Moria and Crocodile are equal to near-end-gamers such as Kuma, Doflamingo and Mihawk. Like saying that there's a Supernova tier and Luffy is equal to Capone.

Shanks used diplomacy in Marineford arc's end? Yes. Did he try to calm everyone? Yes. Did he offer peace? Yes. Did he plead for peace? NO. Haki is a threatening force used to intimidate and imbue also strengthen attack. The effect of "win over animals as if by talking to them" was only a result of the creatures (Motobaro, Crazy Wolves in Impel Down) being intimidated.

Shanks challenged anyone, Shanks challenged everyone. And see that stare toward Blackbeard. That was doubtlessly a personal challenge, and Supersaiyan Blackbeard backed off. Teach previously taunted both Sengoku and Garp, then Shanks challenged him openly, and Teach backed off.

My conclusion in this post:

Shanks was not a swordsman like Zoro or Mihawk is a swordsman, because it would break the consistency of the whole Marineford Arc's end which displayed such power of his presence alone.

Shanks wasn't exactly standing alone in the middle of all that, he kinda had a crew befitting of a Yonkou pirate. Sengoku called a close to the battle, all marines have to adhere to that rule. The marines, at this point, were already fighting on two fronts thanks to Blackbeard. If they continued, they would have opened up a third front. Blackbeard, if he'd continued, would have opened up a second front. Even the Whitebeard pirates, if they had continued, would have come under the assault of the red haired pirates. His statement was across the board.

I can't deny that the red haired pirates have a force behind them which made people back off. But we're not talking healthy fresh fighters. We're talking people who have been fighting for probably over three hours (or at least close to). We're talking about forces that have already lost a lot of their firepower. Though the marines still had the admirals, they'd already lost a significant portion of their men and battlements, plus the Shichibukai.

So what I'm saying is that Shanks' prescence alone didn't make everyone back off. It was the threat of his entire crew, plus the fact that the forces he was opposing were all heavily spent whilst he was a fresh fighting force.

Example: Strawhat's beat a Pacifista. The moment a second one turned up, Luffy gave the command to retreat.

So: Marines beat a Yonkou. The moment a secon one turned up, Sengoku gave the command to retreat. I'm not even factoring in Blackbeard there and the argument makes a lot of sense.

 

[Fox666]

Whitebeard is the strongest man in the world. In his prime. Now? Let's review. In his fight against Akainu, the admiral said, "even you cannot escape from the effects of age". His health had gotten much worse, otherwise like a quote from Marco, he would have able to avoid a sneak attack even from the ones he thought as friends, even if he was taken off-guard. And Whitebeard, a dying man with a stab in his heart and magma piercing in that very hole and a gangbang from who knows how many marines and two Admirals namely Yellow Monkey and Red Dog, Pops was still stronger than Akainu.

At the current level, there is no big difference beetween power.

The "strongest man in the world", Whitebeard, is stronger than the Admirals (as the title says), but the difference is not that big.

One example, Marco could fight against all the Admirals, even with less trouble than Whitebeard. We saw that happening several times. So you see, the difference beetween the Whitebeard captain and first mate aren't big.

We saw Whitebeard real ability to dodge in this war. This was when Crocodile attacked him from the back. You just need to look at the facial expression of Whitebeard face at that time. And that's why Crocodile was so pissed off when Squad stabbed him.

But the Gura Gura no Mi didn't loose any of his power with Whitebeard age, so I think you are overestimating the health problem affect on his Whitebeard strength.

But was Pops, at this Marineford Arc, stronger than Sengoku or Garp? I don't think so. Each one of those two strongest marine should at the very least be able to equal him now, due to those handicaps Oda given him. Please remember that the old strongest had already greatly deteriorated in this war. His Haoushoku wasn't even able to create Luffy's Haoushoku blast. He wasn't even able to completely penetrate Logia intangibility most of the time, otherwise Kizaru would suffer the same defeat as Akainu.

We don't know how Haki works. Sometimes it passes Logias, sometimes it don't.

We also don't know why he did not use the power to take down weaklings. Maybe it wastes too much "Ki"? Who knows

Let's see Marco. I would put him at admiral level. He was able to block Akainu's magma equally, and Kizaru's victory over him was mainly because he was diverted between fighting the admiral and helping Pops.

Agree.

Let's see Jozu, Ace, Crocodile and Vista. I would put them below admiral level, no matter how small. Let's call this Shichibukai level. Jozu could hurt Crocodile, Doflamingo could not control him completely, he could hurt Aokiji yet in the end he got his hand separated by Ice Saber. Ace was owned by Akainu, and he was also owned by the one and only special-case Shichibukai, Teach. Crocodile was equally match when fighting Doflamingo, and Croc was also involved with a balanced sword-and-hook fight against Mihawk. Vista fought Mihawk equally for quite a while until their battle disturbed by Pacifista attack.

There are lots of points there. First some corrections. Doflamingo controlled Jozu perfectly. (I also would add that since it's Jozu, that basically proves that noone can escape Doflamingo's power) And if I am not wrong, Mihawk and Vista turned off because Akainu was going to melt their foot. Aokiji did not used Ice Saber, Jozu just loose his arm because it broke when he hit the ground.

Now, Crocodile "equalized" with a lot of people, Doflamingo, Mihawk, Akainu... which is very exaggerated to call "equalization". Crocodile is a Logia and his power is versatile, that's why he becomes annoying even for Akainu.

We can't say anything about Mihawk and Vista fight. I have the impression that One Piece sword vs sword fight follow the rules of Star Wars light saber fight, which the characters will clash for quite a long time, before an result.

These premises convinced me that:

1. Shanks's main skill is not swordsmanship, because
2. Mihawk, the world's number one swordsman, is in Shichibukai tier.

Shanks used diplomacy in Marineford arc's end? Yes. Did he try to calm everyone? Yes. Did he offer peace? Yes. Did he plead for peace? NO. Haki is a threatening force used to intimidate and imbue also strengthen attack. The effect of "win over animals as if by talking to them" was only a result of the creatures (Motobaro, Crazy Wolves in Impel Down) being intimidated.

Shanks challenged anyone, Shanks challenged everyone.

Shanks is still a Yonkou, it would be stupid if the marines fight another one. That does not mean that Shanks could beat the marines or the Shichibukai. That only means that the loses would be of no interest for the marines.

And see that stare toward Blackbeard. That was doubtlessly a personal challenge, and Supersaiyan Blackbeard backed off. Teach previously taunted both Sengoku and Garp, then Shanks challenged him openly, and Teach backed off.

Blackbeard had no interest in fighting. He was doing so because Sengoku wouldn't let him go. Not because he really was interested in risking his life at that time.

My conclusion in this post:

Shanks was not a swordsman like Zoro or Mihawk is a swordsman, because it would break the consistency of the whole Marineford Arc's end which displayed such power of his presence alone.

His presence is because he has one of the strongest crew in the world.

Even Whitebeard was a little worried about Buggy crew... even if Shanks himself was weak like Buggy, his chalange against the marines would have worked.

So, my conclusion is that the war proves the strength of the Red-hair pirates, but is meaningless when it comes to Shanks. His own fighting power can be anything.

 

[St Michael]

Seems to me a bit off topic , but I assume that Vista and Mihawk are roughly of the same level.

Their duel was interrupted by the PX , but it is said that each of them hit the other 1 time.

At least , Mihawk isn't superior by far. Maybe in a longer duel , the score would be 10 touches to 8. But nonetheless , that proves that Mihawk isn't alone in his "swordman league".

Don't know if it makes sense to you guys.

 

[DutchPhoenix]

Seems to me a bit off topic , but I assume that Vista and Mihawk are roughly of the same level.

Their duel was interrupted by the PX , but it is said that each of them hit the other 1 time.

At least , Mihawk isn't superior by far. Maybe in a longer duel , the score would be 10 touches to 8. But nonetheless , that proves that Mihawk isn't alone in his "swordman league".

Don't know if it makes sense to you guys.

vista.. a guy who was commander, a swordsman who has been in the new world for decades, has been able to hold off mihawk for a short period.. that doesnt make vista in the same league as mihawk.

Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world; a monster superior to monsters

he was able to easily follow Luffy's Gear Second movements, and strike with extreme precision, releasing a long-ranged slash at him while going around the other people in between.

also He wields the Black Sword Kokutou Yoru, the strongest Sword in the world.

Also the fact that Shanks used to be a rival of Mihawk when he had both his arms, one of the yonkou implies that mihawk might be one of the strongest character in the series.

 

[St Michael]

No offense but you kinda repeat yourself again and again about the world greatest swordman title.

Vista managed to hit him apparently : http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/562/11/

So Mihawk isn't THAT superior to all the swordman around here. Stop overating him.

 

[DutchPhoenix]

vista didnt hit him lol

 

[BlackHair]

Vista managed to hit him apparently : http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/562/11/

That's a bad translation from Franky House. Better go with cnet.

Mihawk: Let us postpone this match for the moment, Vista.
Vista: That would seem to be most advantageous to both of us!!

As far as I noticed Miahwk and Kizaru seems to be two only high tier fighters who left the battle without scratches. I could be wrong, but I didn't see anyone else without damagelines.

vista.. a guy who was commander, a swordsman who has been in the new world for decades, has been able to hold off mihawk for a short period.. that doesnt make vista in the same league as mihawk.

Not sure what you mean by "same league". But he isn't that much superior to Vista as he would be to Luffy. Everything you listed says to me that Vista stands on his equal grounds. Of course Mihawk would win, but that wouldn't be a easy go win. Mihawk himself stated him strong.

He is the strongest swordsman, but that doesn't say he has no one on his equal grounds. Imo Mihawk vs Shanks would be like Luffy vs Lucci. Luffy won barely, same case for Mihawk. And Luffy vs Blueno would be like Mihawk vs Vista, I guess. Luffy won, however he was forced to go G2. Though I believe Mihawk would have harder time beating Vista than Luffy did with Blueno.

At the current level, there is no big difference beetween power.

The "strongest man in the world", Whitebeard, is stronger than the Admirals (as the title says), but the difference is not that big.

One example, Marco could fight against all the Admirals, even with less trouble than Whitebeard. We saw that happening several times. So you see, the difference beetween the Whitebeard captain and first mate aren't big.

Agreed! The battle strength of each high tier isn't big. Vista Marco Jozu are able to fight Admirals and Yonko on equal grounds.

So is his main skill headbutting people? Luffy's main skill is physical combat. His devil fruit, haki and strength all just suplement that. Everything I've seen from Shanks says his "main skill" is swordsmanship, and that anything else he has (including Hakoushou) is only a suplement to this.

Couldn't have said it any better.


Antares I disagree with almost everything you said. But everything was already covered, so I don't rly have anything big to add. The one who challenged everyone on this battlefield was a healthy and ready to go Yonko pirate crew not Shanks the sole pirate.

Whitebeard is the strongest man in the world. In his prime. Now?

Though offtopic, but Yes even now he was the strongest as Sengoku stated that himself several times. This is rly not sth debatable, it is clear fact by now. WB (before the start of this arc) would win against anyone in a fair 1vs1 fight. Of course there are ppl who would be able to put a fight against him, but he would win.

Vista fought Mihawk equally for quite a while until their battle disturbed by Pacifista attack.

This war was chaotic, there were no 1vs1 matches which lasted longer than a few minutes (at most). That was as much time they had.

2. Mihawk, the world's number one swordsman, is in Shichibukai tier.

There is no such a thing thing as Shichi-tier. The Shichi are gathered according to their fame and their bounty, not necessarily strength. With that you can't put everyone on the same level for lols sake.

 

[Antares]

Previously, let's all be reminded that i'm not thinking Shanks' stronger because i'm a total Shanks fan or because i hate Mihawk and his fans. Yes, i'm a Shanks fan, but only because "he" convinced me through chapters. So let's support our favorite characters peacefully.

bittmann,

If you get distracted for 3 seconds and that gets you defeated, then it's not a close match at all. Luffy got distracted plenty in his battle with Lucchi, he still fought on. The only thing Marco has that is admiral level would be his survivability thanks to his devil fruit. None of the admirals really showed any true struggle against Marco. Kizaru seemed to be toying with him (then again Kizaru toys with everyone) and Akainu healed from the haki slash without blood. Defence: admiral level, that I'd agree with. Everything else, not so much.

Luffy got distracted? No. Luffy had said "I won't let my eyes off of you." He was focused solely on Lucci. If he was getting beaten atvarious points it was due to Lucci's own strength. Lucci was strong enough to inflict those damage points. Kizaru seemed to be toying with everyone because it was his character. Just like Sengoku's who was taking everything seriously, and like Akainu who was trying to be lawfully badass all the time. Whitebeard was dying, Marco and Jozu focused on helping him instead of fighting admirals, they got owned by admirals. The defeat not because it was no true struggle to the admirals, but because they were doing just something else.

Doflamingo could not control who? You think he was there struggling to hold Jozu back do you? Whilst sitting on him? I saw Crocodile fight a million people, if you think he was "equal" to Doflamingo, then he is also "equal" to Akainu and Luffy (two people CLEARLY on different tiers).

And there is no Shichibukai tier. Unless you believe Moria and Crocodile are equal to near-end-gamers such as Kuma, Doflamingo and Mihawk. Like saying that there's a Supernova tier and Luffy is equal to Capone.

Couldn't entirely control Jozu, yes. I do think he was required to sit, as in with his whole body, to manage controlling him. I didn't say Croc was equal to Akainu. He hadn't trade blows with Akainu. I said Croc was equal to Doflamingo and Mihawk. About both of them being "end-gamers", that's your own opinion. I don't predict imaginary matches such as Moria vs Dofla, Moria vs Kuma, etc. I just saw what i saw in previous chapters. Which is Croc's blows against Doflamingo, Croc blowing Doflamingo aside, and Croc trading blows once against Mihawk. And Croc wasn't dead yet. He didn't get hurt either. Kuma? He was getting death-winked tens of tims by Ivankov without being able to dodge, or being able to give the Okama Queen a defeat. I think he should be an end-gamer, but after seeing this arc, not anymore. He couldn't utilize his Fruit to the max, he was just equal to the transvestite the last we seen him battle against. He "just" Ursa Shock-ed Oars, damaging Oars, as in something each Shichi was capable of (Moria's Tsunotokage, Dofla's leg-cutting). But Shichis to be end-gamers? Aside from Teach, i didn't see any significant proof of power or role except equal fights against WB commanders or NW Pirates. Who did Akainu beat in this arc? Ace, who is equal to Jimbei. Who did Kuma, Dofla, Mihawk beat in this arc? Which WB commanders? Which big shots? None. With all respect to Shichibukai, i think they were below admirals. Except Blackbeard, the Devil Fruit Supersaiyajin.

So is his main skill headbutting people? Luffy's main skill is physical combat. His devil fruit, haki and strength all just suplement that. Everything I've seen from Shanks says his "main skill" is swordsmanship, and that anything else he has (including Hakoushou) is only a suplement to this.

Is Brooke's main skill headbutting swordsmanship? No. He used his sword as a medium to use his musical technique. That's not swordsmanship. Is Whitebeard's main skill bisento fighting technique? Or is it headbutting people? Or is it quake? It's quake. The black lightning he imbued onto his bisento, as later seen in Teach's right hand, is quake. That's utilization of quake technique, not bisento fighting technique. And Luffy's main skill, physical combat, was based on rubber. His main weapon is his rubber nature, that's why he used hand-to-hand combat. Because his rubber skills would be maximized. It was the manifestation of his rubber-ness, not martial art technique he could use without his Fruit. He used physical combat because his rubber nature is his main weapon, not the other way around. It was an entirely different discipline of knowledge.

Shanks wasn't exactly standing alone in the middle of all that, he kinda had a crew befitting of a Yonkou pirate. Sengoku called a close to the battle, all marines have to adhere to that rule. The marines, at this point, were already fighting on two fronts thanks to Blackbeard. If they continued, they would have opened up a third front. Blackbeard, if he'd continued, would have opened up a second front. Even the Whitebeard pirates, if they had continued, would have come under the assault of the red haired pirates. His statement was across the board.

I can't deny that the red haired pirates have a force behind them which made people back off. But we're not talking healthy fresh fighters. We're talking people who have been fighting for probably over three hours (or at least close to). We're talking about forces that have already lost a lot of their firepower. Though the marines still had the admirals, they'd already lost a significant portion of their men and battlements, plus the Shichibukai.

So what I'm saying is that Shanks' prescence alone didn't make everyone back off. It was the threat of his entire crew, plus the fact that the forces he was opposing were all heavily spent whilst he was a fresh fighting force.
Example: Strawhat's beat a Pacifista. The moment a second one turned up, Luffy gave the command to retreat.

Fox666,

Blackbeard had no interest in fighting. He was doing so because Sengoku wouldn't let him go. Not because he really was interested in risking his life at that time.

No. Blackbeard personally challenged The Buddha and The Hero, the two strongest marines. But when Shanks directed a personal challenge toward him, he backed off.

It was not a matter between crews, because Red-Hair Pirates' burden were much bigger than BB Pirates or Marines. By putting a war challenge ("Bring it on! We'll take care of every single one of you!"), they, The Red-Hair Pirates, were ready to oppose and be opposed by ALL: Marines, WB Pirates, Shichibukai, AND BB Pirates. His crew were outweighed, without a doubt, by all that.

Shanks then stared at Teach, his eyes blazing in a cool way and he challenged Teach personally, "Well, Teach? Or, "Blackbeard?!". It was, i'm sure of it, a personal challenge. And Teach, the same Teach who just previously challenged the woundless Sengoku and punched-once-by-Luffy Garp, because he felt as an ultimate being and he felt like he could just turn this world into anything he wanted, backed off.

Fox666,

so I think you are overestimating the health problem affect on his Whitebeard strength.

I think Whitebeard's health problems were greatly underestimated just because he was the big daddy, the strongest man. He was but a single man, he was capable of weakening and dying.

BlackHair,

Antares I disagree with almost everything you said. But everything was already covered, so I don't rly have anything big to add.

I also disagree with almost any arguments supporting Mihawk without proper proof in an actual chapter. The only thing about Mihawk i agree with is Oda's given title to him "The World's Number One Swordsman". Which is why i think, strongly, that Shanks was not a swordsman, just like Whitebeard who was not a bisento man or bisento fighter but instead a Quakeman. Why do i think so? Because from this arc's data, i'm sure that Shanks is stronger than Mihawk. By this arc, Shanks is no weaker than even Sengoku, Garp, or Supersaiyan Blackbeard.

 

[Schabrak]

well, well, well

Kizaru seemed to be toying with everyone because it was his character. Just like Sengoku's who was taking everything seriously, and like Akainu who was trying to be lawfully badass all the time. Whitebeard was dying, Marco and Jozu focused on helping him instead of fighting admirals, they got owned by admirals. The defeat not because it was no true struggle to the admirals, but because they were doing just something else.

Did you really read his argument? He said that they didn't struggle with him, when fighting them directly, not when they were distracted. Afterwards you even admit, that they got dominated, when they were distracted[by trying to help Whitebeard] and that's why they where no real challange to the admirals. Losing because of simple distraction proves them not being a close match. It's war and they, in their respective position as the strongest force on WBs side, can't lose because of such a idiotic act.

Couldn't entirely control Jozu, yes. I do think he was required to sit, as in with his whole body, to manage controlling him. I didn't say Croc was equal to Akainu. He hadn't trade blows with Akainu. I said Croc was equal to Doflamingo and Mihawk.About both of them being "end-gamers", that's your own opinion. I don't predict imaginary matches such as Moria vs Dofla, Moria vs Kuma, etc. I just saw what i saw in previous chapters. Which is Croc's blows against Doflamingo, Croc blowing Doflamingo aside, and Croc trading blows once against Mihawk. And Croc wasn't dead yet. He didn't get hurt either. Kuma? He was getting death-winked tens of tims by Ivankov without being able to dodge, or being able to give the Okama Queen a defeat. I think he should be an end-gamer, but after seeing this arc, not anymore. He couldn't utilize his Fruit to the max, he was just equal to the transvestite the last we seen him battle against. He "just" Ursa Shock-ed Oars, damaging Oars, as in something each Shichi was capable of (Moria's Tsunotokage, Dofla's leg-cutting). But Shichis to be end-gamers? Aside from Teach, i didn't see any significant proof of power or role except equal fights against WB commanders or NW Pirates. Who did Akainu beat in this arc? Ace, who is equal to Jimbei. Who did Kumba, Dofla, Mihawk beat in this arc? Which WB commanders? Which big shots? None. With all respect to Shichibukai, i think they were below admirals. Except Blackbeard, the Devil Fruit Supersaiyajin.

• Aren't you forgetting something? Akainu did take Whitebeard 1on1, took him down for some moments by punching his chest, took half of his face! Whitebeard had attacked him with a sucker-punch, which he had a reason for, but was in a perspective of a equal fight, gutless. Stop just choosing whatever seems the best in your argument[taking on a weakened Ace or Fishman Jinbei].
• Can't say anything against putting Croc on a stage with Doflamingo and Mihawk, as they are extremely good swordsman without any comparison in a fight. Donquixotes marionette-fruit can't be that useful against a logia user like Croc, so he would be in a big disadvantige, if they were ever to fight against each other. Oda holding back to show much of him[Dofla] shows
• Kuma is without doubt a "end-game"[I don't see anybody here on the same stage, but as strongest of the pirate world, being able to fight people as strong as admirals on equal grounds] pirate, but only when he's acutally able to think for himself[or just basing his strength], not being controlled by a chip from Vegapuk. The A.I.[he must have one, when he isn't able to control himself] isn't comparable to one we see in SciFi movies, where they are able to process thousands or millions of things at the same time.
• Because they did not beat some major characters, they are weaker than the admirals? You like to stay on facts? Please do so yourself. Without a fight between those, we can't say much about them. There are no levels in One Piece.

Is Brooke's main skill headbutting swordsmanship? No. He used his sword as a medium to use his musical technique. That's not swordsmanship. Is Whitebeard's main skill bisento fighting technique? Or is it headbutting people? Or is it quake? It's quake. The black lightning he imbued onto his bisento, as later seen in Teach's right hand, is quake. That's utilization of quake technique, not bisento fighting technique. And Luffy's main skill, physical combat, was based on rubber. His main weapon is his rubber nature, that's why he used hand-to-hand combat. Because his rubber skills would be maximized. It was the manifestation of his rubber-ness, not martial art technique he could use without his Fruit. He used physical combat because his rubber nature is his main weapon, not the other way around. It was an entirely different discipline of knowledge.

I have to disagree. I don't like how people can be so narrow-minded, to think that characters are only able to master one martial art. Why can't they be masters of more than one fighting style? They are all experienced pirates/marines/revolutionaries/whatever with decades of experience.
Brook's main strength is fencing with his sword and has techniques for that[which is a swordsmanship obviously], while also being able to use his Shikomizue onto a violin to create the lullaby. But here it's only a suplement, taking advantage of his musical experience.
About Luffy: We can't say much about Luffy's strength without his DF, but that he was trained by Garp/Dadan, which doesn't say much about his normal hand-to-hand combat ability. And still he uses pure hand-to-hand/feet combat which is enhanced by his ruberbody.
Whitebeard on the other hand is capable of using long rage attacks[pure Devil-Fruit] as well as hand-to-hand combat[enhanced and not] and swordmanship[enhanced and not]. It's distinct that Devil Fruit users are named after their "powers"... so he's called Quakeman for no other reason than it being his most striking[and strongest] feature. Besides giants, he must have been the most experienced human on earth, so who would doubt that he was able to learn those skills to the fullest in his life?

No. Blackbeard personally challenged The Buddha and The Hero, the two strongest marines. But when Shanks directed a personal challenge toward him, he backed off.

It was not a matter between crews, because Red-Hair Pirates' burden were much bigger than BB Pirates or Marines. By putting a war challenge ("Bring it on! We'll take care of every single one of you!"), they, The Red-Hair Pirates, were ready to oppose and be opposed by ALL: Marines, WB Pirates, Shichibukai, AND BB Pirates. His crew were outweighed, without a doubt, by all that.

Shanks then stared at Teach, his eyes blazing in a cool way and he challenged Teach personally, "Well, Teach? Or, "Blackbeard?!". It was, i'm sure of it, a personal challenge. And Teach, the same Teach who just previously challenged the woundless Sengoku and punched-once-by-Luffy Garp, because he felt as an ultimate being and he felt like he could just turn this world into anything he wanted, backed off.

I think Whitebeard's health problems were greatly underestimated just because he was the big daddy, the strongest man. He was but a single man, he was capable of weakening and dying.

• And his over-confidence returned in the nicest way possible, by Sengokus shockwaves, crippling down nearly everyone from his crew.
  

  10-11
  Shanks: ...then step forward!!! We... // ...will be your opponents!!!
  People: ?!! // ...............!!
  Shanks: What do you say, Teach.........?!! ...Or rather......... "Blackbeard"...
  Blackbeard: .................. // ...Zehahahah! Fine, let's take a break.........!! / I've got what I came here for. It's not the time just yet... // ...to be taking on the likes of you...!!! // Zehahahah... Let's get outta here, men!!
  Sengoku: .........

• Where does he challange him personal here? It's clearly the Red Hair's crew, that he puts against everybody on the island. He firstly told the remaining WB forces/adressing Marco to stop and he did so immediately. Than he adressed the rest, with his main attention to the marines and finally adressed Blackbeard, to take him out his madness, who backed of casualy by saying, that he had gained what he came for.
• If that is blazing cool, what a fanboy, than half of the cast in the chapter, had done the same... reread the chapter please. Also his eye was twiching as a reminder of his past confrontation, which isn't cool, but a sign of weaknes in my opinion.
• Doesn't change the fact, that WB was still the strongest man on earth. You can turn sphere, it will stay same from every angle.

I also disagree with almost any arguments supporting Mihawk without proper proof in an actual chapter. The only thing about Mihawk i agree with is Oda's given title to him "The World's Number One Swordsman". Which is why i think, strongly, that Shanks was not a swordsman, just like Whitebeard who was not a bisento man or bisento fighter but instead a Quakeman. Why do i think so? Because from this arc's data, i'm sure that Shanks is stronger than Mihawk. By this arc, Shanks is no weaker than even Sengoku, Garp, or Supersaiyan Blackbeard.

Proof is what is told by himself and that is, that we won't take on a weakened, one handed Shanks. That's even more proof, than anybody triyng to give Shanks being the overlord in the last chapter. We saw Shanks counter Akainu once, that's all. Just to be able to say, that Mihawk is "weak", you try to find a loophole by saying that his titles is irrelevant? But this discussion is meaningles till we see more of them.

 

[kkck]

Well, I don't think it would make much sense plotwise if mihawk and shanks weren't in roughly the same league. Luffy and zoro are both aiming to surpass them and have always maintained a status where they have roughy the same amount of power. I don't think Shanks is as strong as some people think. Surely he is extremely powerful but at most he is just at about the level of an old WB. WB has been shown to have significantly weaken from his prime, even though he fought on par with admirals I doubt that is something the top commanders could not pull right now -in fact, they kinda did do that-.

 

[DutchPhoenix]

problem is people are over-estimating shanks and under-estimating mihawk.
even thought they are BOTH swordsman, and mihawk was stated as strongest swordsman lol

 

[Schabrak]

His flag speaks for itself, that he is a swordsman. Hello, why would he change the most symbolic part of a pirate flag, the bones to swords, if it wasnt for his main trademark feature.

 

[St Michael]

Well, I don't think it would make much sense plotwise if mihawk and shanks weren't in roughly the same league. Luffy and zoro are both aiming to surpass them and have always maintained a status where they have roughy the same amount of power.

Yeah , they aren't in the same league anymore since Enies Lobby.

problem is people are over-estimating shanks and under-estimating mihawk.
even thought they are BOTH swordsman, and mihawk was stated as strongest swordsman lol

No the problem is that Mihawk is overrated since the first chapter he appeared. And honestly I'm kinda sick of this title argument that people served me all those years

I understand if he's (one of) your fav characters , but the only fight he won on screen , it was against weak Zoro. OK and Mr.1 (I believe that the levels of 1 and weak Zoro aren't really that different btw)
He didn't defeat Luffy , he didn't defeat Vista , he didn't defeat Crocodile.

Overall his most impressive feat is the crushing of Krieg fleat and some long time ago clash with Shanks.
Zoro and Luffy clash'd in the past and was roughly equals. It's not the case anymore. Why Shanks and Mihawk case wouldn't be the same?

 

[DutchPhoenix]

Yeah , they aren't in the same league anymore since Enies Lobby.

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/485/15/

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/485/19/

nuff said

 

[Schabrak]

answers

Yeah , they aren't in the same league anymore since Enies Lobby.

Since we didn't see much of Zoro for the last one and a half year, your argument can be seen as void. We had no real comparison of those two for a long time.

roughly the same amount of power

roughly != same
And it's obvious that the Strawhat crew have improved on their jouneys they are on right now -> can't say much about them till they are complete again.

No the problem is that Mihawk is overrated since the first chapter he appeared. And honestly I'm kinda sick of this title argument that people served me all those years

He didn't defeat Luffy , he didn't defeat Vista , he didn't defeat Crocodile.

How do you know if he's overrated, if we never saw Shanks fight? I would like a answer to that please.

He did never say, that he wanted to defeat anybody on MarineFord. That's a fact.

A second fact is that titles have been proved to be right till now. Whitebeard was the strongest man on earth, so what speaks against him being the best swordsman? Why would he[Mihawk] lie about not wanting to fight a one-armed, as it wouldn't be fair?

 

[St Michael]

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/485/15/

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/485/19/

nuff said

I don't see your point.

Luffy is exausted. Kuma gave his pain to Zoro. Zoro is half dead. Yeah exausted and nearly dead are clearly the same thing.

Since we didn't see much of Zoro for the last one and a half year, your argument can be seen as void. We had no real comparison of those two for a long time.

You're probably right. Zoro have probably trained himself hard .. all this week.
Maybe he gained something valuable nonetheless , I just doubt that it would fill up the gap between them.

How do you know if he's overrated, if we never saw Shanks fight? I would like a answer to that please.

I would love to give you an answer that could content both of us. But it just doesn't exist. Yet.
I'm gonna say "Cuz he's a Yonkou , he is obviously stronger that a shichibukai".
That's as weak as the "greatest swordman title argument" though.. but title have proven to be right until now , don't they ?