Special Move Techniques Discussion

[Hardy]

Japan Male stature promedy: 165,5 cm.

Sanada is 179, and is only 15 (or 16, I don't care) years old. He IS tall.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Why are you guys having a pointless argument over if a character is tall or not? Everyone defines the term "tall" in their own way because it is such an ambiguous word. Also don't forget, PoT is a manga, where people are made to have unusual hair and eye colors and height.

PoT: throwing logic out the window since the beginning of time.

 

[Ninomiya]

Please just admit that you're wrong.

If the average height of the tennis population is 5'8 and there are people who are 6'0 - 6'3, they are tall. It doesn't matter if there were 50 people taller than 5'8, they are ALL tall.

You are wrong. We named 11, you said five.
Your bringing real life tennis into it, it has no real relevance here where Ochi Tsukimitsu is 226cm. Which makes you even more incorrect.

I never said he wasn't tall. I said there are a lot of guys taller than him. FACT.

I have said nothing that isn't true.
Higashikata, Akutsu, Chinen, Chitose, Inui, Renji, Kabaji, Ootori, Gin, Krauser and Tetsu from PoT is eleven.
I havent even started with HSers.

Please admit that you're the one who is wrong. If there are many players taller than him, Zan cannot be based around his height, it must be more due to his technique.
Why you thought bringing real life tennis into PoT Logic would help you argument is beyond me, when he have a Japanese guy in the series who is 2.26m tall.

---------- Post added at 02:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:21 AM ----------

Why are you guys having a pointless argument over if a character is tall or not? Everyone defines the term "tall" in their own way because it is such an ambiguous word. Also don't forget, PoT is a manga, where people are made to have unusual hair and eye colors and height.

PoT: throwing logic out the window since the beginning of time.

arrrghhhh I never even said he '''wasn't tall''. Ever. Fayte tends to misread things if there is a hint of negativity about Sanada.

---------- Post added September 23, 2012 at 06:50 AM ---------- Previous post was September 05, 2012 at 02:49 AM ----------

The Movie-only technique: Gemini

Users: Xiu, Peter, Kieth

In the instance before returning a shot to their opponent, the user creates a pocket of air in the shape of a tennis ball right in front of the real ball he is returning to his opponent.
As he returns the opponents shot, the ball of air which he creates in his hand hovers in the air in the same path of the real ball.
This means that both the ball of air, and the real ball are returned to the opponent at the same time.

However, the ball of air is directly in front of the real ball. This means the ball of air hits the opponents racket first, throwing the opponents swing off-balance.
So that the real ball which is directly behind the ball of air, can only be hit by a ver off-balance racket causing the opponents shot to be off-balance and almost always land outside of the court.

The Movie creators really went the distance in giving their characters unique special moves this time haha.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Exhibit A: Tezuka killed the dinosaurs
Exhibit B: Echizen harnessed star power

What next movie animators?

 

[Ninomiya]

Exhibit A: Tezuka killed the dinosaurs
Exhibit B: Echizen harnessed star power

What next movie animators?

Honestly I'm stunned at how they had the nerve to show Bio-Magnetism can be used as a lob too.
Just the whole explosions in the ceiling, the stars suddenly being drawn towards Ryoma's lob and into the castle.

Gemini was an amazing technique. I'm still curious as to how someone can shape a ball of air in the hands and send that ball of air flying along with a real ball in just one swing. Amazed.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Imma try to go Inui style now.

Well, the only logical explanation for Gemini is... um... Ok this is won't work in real life but here I go. Before the player is about to hit Gemini, he moves his hand to a side and cups his hand. From there he moves that hand very fast to create a pocket of air which he directs to the opponent by swinging his racquet very quickly. The high and low pressures of air generated by the racquet are enough to push the air forward.

Ok this is starting to make me think that the wind from Daisharin Yama Arashi can be channeled into a Bio-Magnetism type shot.

 

[Brandnewkid]

Don't try to apply sense to it, the writers behind the movie were obviously edging off the mega-success of Inazuma 11's super power techniques. In fact, you all should expect Konomi to add similar moves to the actual manga. I'm calling it now.

 

[Ninomiya]

Don't try to apply sense to it, the writers behind the movie were obviously edging off the mega-success of Inazuma 11's super power techniques. In fact, you all should expect Konomi to add similar moves to the actual manga. I'm calling it now.

Inazuma 11 style describes it perfectly.

 

[Phantron]

Little late to this topic but Furinkazan is more like a buff than a technique, because there's nothing special about any of Sanada's moves. You can also see that when other people tried to copy Ka it didn't produce anywhere near the same effect, presumably because the guys trying to copy it are physically weaker than Sanada by a lot.

He is just faster/stronger/tougher than anyone else in his age group and I guess he gets to decide what to focus his energy toward. Sanada's approach is basically play the exact same style as his opponent does and win by the fact that he's better at pretty much every style out there (power/speed/endurance at least, unsure what Rin actually counters). So if he gets more powerful due to the Black Aura the power of Furinkazan goes up too due to the fact he's even stronger/faster/whatever so he really doesn't need any new moves. I mean he can already move at the speed of light.

As an aside I think Sanada is the best top tier character that takes care of his body. All his moves are very safe to use with minimal side effects. Rai potentially have side effect, but it's probably more likely Rai kills someone in one hit before the strain on his legs causes any serious problem.

 

[Ninomiya]

He is just faster/stronger/tougher

Faster than Kikumaru? Kintaro? Kamio? Kenya?

Stronger/Tougher than Gin, Kabaji, Kawamura?

I think he is could be the Fastest strong guy. Although Kintaro who casually through a motorbike might be the fastest strong guy actually.

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------

As an aside I think Sanada is the best top tier character that takes care of his body. All his moves are very safe to use with minimal side effects. Rai potentially have side effect, but it's probably more likely Rai kills someone in one hit before the strain on his legs causes any serious problem.

Rai??? Crazy Side effects!!
Come on.

Rai kills who in one hit? Just get a new racket.
The main thing I like about Sanada is that he isn't about crushing his opponent violently like a lot of the annoying HSers, instead he makes them feel despair by wiping them through tennis and only tennis.

Better at endurance? We don't know that yet.
We only know Sanada is the perfect All-Rounder. We don't know if he is the best at any individual aspect.

 

[Phantron]

Faster than Kikumaru? Kintaro? Kamio? Kenya?

Stronger/Tougher than Gin, Kabaji, Kawamura?

I think he is could be the Fastest strong guy. Although Kintaro who casually through a motorbike might be the fastest strong guy actually.

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 PM ----------


Rai??? Crazy Side effects!!
Come on.

Rai kills who in one hit? Just get a new racket.
The main thing I like about Sanada is that he isn't about crushing his opponent violently like a lot of the annoying HSers, instead he makes them feel despair by wiping them through tennis and only tennis.

Better at endurance? We don't know that yet.
We only know Sanada is the perfect All-Rounder. We don't know if he is the best at any individual aspect.

Ryoma copied Kamio to keep up with Fu and then Sanada said the real Fu is 3 times as fast, so yeah I'd say he's faster than anyone else. Rai is literally the speed of light.

Given in the physical power realm it's pretty clear Sanada > Yukimura/Tezuka (neither can return Rai straight up as a function of power), if anyone is physically stronger than Sanada at the middle school level they'd have a high chance of doing a wrist shattering move on either Yukimura or Tezuka, yet these two characters have absolutely no problem dealing with power type characters. Kintaro is a newcomer and he referred to Sanada as a gorillia, which implies he clearly respects Sanada's physical strength. Maybe Kintaro is stronger overall given his status but that's something we can't find out.

By the way by being stronger I don't mean if Sanada played Gin he's going to hit something back with Ka and you see Gin fly 20 stories and start coughing up blood. As far as I can tell Sanada is actually a relatively decent guy so he's not trying to hit the ball to purposely injure someone. If the two played it'd probably just go like

Gin: Hado 1!
Sanada: Ka!
Gin: Hado 2!
Sanada: Ka!
(repeat lots of times)

And finally Gin would be too worn out to continue playing. If Sanada can't pull this off, there's no reason why he's referred to as the Emperor who defeats all his opponent in a straight up fight. For example in the Ryoma versus Sanada we're told that Fu counters power type techniques (Fu counters Ka), but if Sanada had to use Fu to deal with Gin's power, then that'd be a direct contradiction of him being a character that always fights the opponent head on. Yes, he avoided fighting Tezuka head on, but Tezuka is obviously a unique exception.

For endurance he outlasted Atobe, a guy who seems to always find a way to get into triple digit tiebreakers. There isn't much else to judge endurance on but Atobe seems a pretty solid pick for best endurance prior to Sanada showing up (yes Ryoma outlasted him too, but Ryoma sort of just do whatever he wants).

Rai has a side effect but if you consider the frequency it's used, it's relatively low, probably because Sanada has an extremely strong body to begin with. In the match against Tezuka, all of Sanada's points are scored by using Rai (when he mixed in Rin, it's in addition to using Rai), and he also used Rai on all the points he lost minus the ones lost to the 0th serve (no need to teleport to that), so that's 7 games he won + 4 games he lost = at least 44 application of Rai. Given Rai is supposed to be an unreturnable move, you really should only need to use it 24 times to win. The extra applications of Rai is due to Sanada being stubborn, as he can simply stop using Rai after seeing the Phantom a few times knowing there's no point to waste energy on more Rais. I checked the manga and Sanada started showing side effects from Rai at 4-4. Not counting the 4 0th serves that's 28 applications Rai, which against almost anyone else would be an easy 6-0. If he simply started using Rin earlier (Tezuka has no answer to that move) he'd easily finish the match without any serious damage.

If Sanada wanted to he can simply aim Rai at his opponent's stomach or similar body parts that causes your usual guy flying up 20 stories and coughing up blood effect. You can't even dodge it because the Rai is way too fast to be avoided. It seems pretty clear most power type characters are more interested in killing their opponent than playing tennis. The angle of contact on power players seem to suggest they're aiming for body parts in the first place. Given Sanada can play any power character straight up, there's nothing stopping him from just aiming at someone's body part with Rai too. Of course, he's one of the few guys who is actually trying to win the game as opposed to torture his opponent. Even Yukimura has this masochist tendency as we see in the mini tiebreaker, Yukimura was clearly aiming the ball at Sanada's body even after he lost all his senses even though he should be able to score trivially against someone who cannot see/hear/feel.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Ryoma copied Kamio to keep up with Fu and then Sanada said the real Fu is 3 times as fast, so yeah I'd say he's faster than anyone else. Rai is literally the speed of light.

Given in the physical power realm it's pretty clear Sanada > Yukimura/Tezuka (neither can return Rai straight up as a function of power), if anyone is physically stronger than Sanada at the middle school level they'd have a high chance of doing a wrist shattering move on either Yukimura or Tezuka, yet these two characters have absolutely no problem dealing with power type characters. Kintaro is a newcomer and he referred to Sanada as a gorillia, which implies he clearly respects Sanada's physical strength. Maybe Kintaro is stronger overall given his status but that's something we can't find out.

If Sanada wanted to he can simply aim Rai at his opponent's stomach or similar body parts that causes your usual guy flying up 20 stories and coughing up blood effect. You can't even dodge it because the Rai is way too fast to be avoided. It seems pretty clear most power type characters are more interested in killing their opponent than playing tennis. The angle of contact on power players seem to suggest they're aiming for body parts in the first place. Given Sanada can play any power character straight up, there's nothing stopping him from just aiming at someone's body part with Rai too. Of course, he's one of the few guys who is actually trying to win the game as opposed to torture his opponent. Even Yukimura has this masochist tendency as we see in the mini tiebreaker, Yukimura was clearly aiming the ball at Sanada's body even after he lost all his senses even though he should be able to score trivially against someone who cannot see/hear/feel.

When facing Rai, the others make up for it in technique.

Since when is Rai too fast to be avoided? If Tezuka and Yukimura had enough time to swing their racquet back then hit the ball, I'd say that's enough time to dodge it.

 

[Phantron]

When facing Rai, the others make up for it in technique.

Since when is Rai too fast to be avoided? If Tezuka and Yukimura had enough time to swing their racquet back then hit the ball, I'd say that's enough time to dodge it.

Tezuka whiffed on Rai when he attempted to return it without Tezuka Zone. This means even against someone of Tezuka's calibur, Rai can hit some arbitrary place where a Tezuka level character cannot even react on time. So if Sanada played like the power type characters that hits the ball to maim people, you'd see plenty of standard 'guys flying across air' deal.

If Tezuka can't even reliably hit Rai at all without using Tezuka Zone, it's hard to see the vast majority of POT characters even have a chance at hitting Rai, and being able to hit Rai is not enough to return it either.

 

[Ninomiya]

Ryoma copied Kamio to keep up with Fu and then Sanada said the real Fu is 3 times as fast, so yeah I'd say he's faster than anyone else. Rai is literally the speed of light.

That is swing speed. Which is under technique.
In terms of running speed, Kamio is the fastest in Kanto. You're not getting the story right.

Given in the physical power realm it's pretty clear Sanada > Yukimura/Tezuka (neither can return Rai straight up as a function of power), if anyone is physically stronger than Sanada at the middle school level they'd have a high chance of doing a wrist shattering move on either Yukimura or Tezuka, yet these two characters have absolutely no problem dealing with power type characters. Kintaro is a newcomer and he referred to Sanada as a gorillia, which implies he clearly respects Sanada's physical strength. Maybe Kintaro is stronger overall given his status but that's something we can't find out.

No, its a running joke that Sanada doesn't look like a Middle Schooler.

And no, because Tezuka, Yukimura and Sanada have what is likely the best technique of the Middle SChoolers.
Sanada isn't all about Power at all. He only uses Power for Ka and Rai. Everything else is practically technique.

By the way by being stronger I don't mean if Sanada played Gin he's going to hit something back with Ka and you see Gin fly 20 stories and start coughing up blood. As far as I can tell Sanada is actually a relatively decent guy so he's not trying to hit the ball to purposely injure someone. If the two played it'd probably just go like

Then its down to technique.
I don't see why you'd suddenly assume Sanada > Gin or Kawamura in strength.

Gin: Hado 1!
Sanada: Ka!
Gin: Hado 2!
Sanada: Ka!
(repeat lots of times)

You're saying Ka > Hadoukyuu 108 then?

 

[Kaoz]

Since it came up in the other thread.

As much as I hate to post these lines here, Tezuka doesn't need to predict anything at all for TZone to work. I know I wrote otherwise a few months ago, but got rather recently pointed towards this page, where it basically says that TZone is just some sort of super spin that halves the spin of whatever shot the opponent uses next, and as a result the shot gets somehow pulled inwards.

Probably should have posted this sooner somewhere but oh well.

Some things to discuss:
1. How did Atobe break that super spin (obviously some kind of super counter spin, but what implications does this have)?
2. Does GUYU beat out Zone? If so, why? Or was Tezuka just being self-destructive for no particular reason?

 

[LetalHawk]

Since it came up in the other thread.



Some things to discuss:
1. How did Atobe break that super spin (obviously some kind of super counter spin, but what implications does this have)?
2. Does GUYU beat out Zone? If so, why? Or was Tezuka just being self-destructive for no particular reason?

1. He used his insight, he evolved it and was able to improve it to the level he could see the spin of the ball so clearly that he knew what spin to apply to break TZ.
2. If Tezuka couldn't see the real ball, and was sucking an obvious fake ball, wouldn't he sense the other ball? Or Yamato did some trick to prevent it?

 

[Phantron]

TZone still requires you to know where the real ball is. For example say you hit the ball 3m to the left and Tezuka moved the ball 2m to right with TZone so he can hit it, that works out fine.

If Tezuka loses track of the real ball, then you can say just hit it directly down the middle, and then the ball moves 2m to the right with TZone, and now it's 2m to the right of Tezuka, even though he thought it'd be 1m to the left of him. Then you'd just miss the shot completely.

There's no such problem with TPhantom because TPhantom applies enough movement to get a ball hit to the middle out of bounds. That said TPhantom could be defeated half of the time by GUYU, like say Tezuka moves it 4m to the right, if you just hit it to the left side of the court then it'd still land inside the court (and Tezuka would miss the ball since he has no idea where it isdue to GUYU). Given nobody can tell which direction TPhantom is moving the ball to, that means you only have a 50% chance of succeeding, but it's better than 0% which is what happens if you hit toward the middle.

 

[Ninomiya]

I agree with Phantron.
TZ requires the user to see the ball clearly as the ball is coming back to him for him to hit it.

Whereas TP throws this problem out. He doesn't have to see it since the real ball is flying out the court no matter what.

 

[Fuji Shusuke]

Question:
If Tezuka Phantom was returned with Hyakuren, would the ball go out because the spin is doubled?
Or will the ball stay in and the player who initially hit Phantom, hit the shot out from the doubled spin?

 

[Phantron]

Question:
If Tezuka Phantom was returned with Hyakuren, would the ball go out because the spin is doubled?
Or will the ball stay in and the player who initially hit Phantom, hit the shot out from the doubled spin?

I'd assume the double spin would negate the initial spin, and the original guy who hit the Phantom will now see the ball go out of bounds for twice the distance compared to before.

That said Hyakuren doesn't negate any inherent damage property of a tech completely. It just minimizes it, because we see Tezuka was still hurting when he gets into a Hyakuren mirror match against Kabaji. Since Phantom is one of the highest self-damage moves too it seems like hitting Phantom with Hyakuren would hurt yourself a lot too.