Special Move Techniques Discussion

[Hardy]

never mind that people can actually hit 230km/h quite easily in real life

no

 

[Phantron]

no

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastest_recorded_tennis_serves

I know that serves in real life are a lot faster than rallies but this is apparently not true in POT (the fastest serve recorded in POT is 215 km/h, presumably faster serves like Mach Serve do not have a km/h value). Rallies are apparently where the vast majority of powerful moves are used so you'd have to compare them to the serve in their real life counterpart.

 

[Hardy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastest_recorded_tennis_serves

I know that serves in real life are a lot faster than rallies but this is apparently not true in POT (the fastest serve recorded in POT is 215 km/h, presumably faster serves like Mach Serve do not have a km/h value). Rallies are apparently where the vast majority of powerful moves are used so you'd have to compare them to the serve in their real life counterpart.

? Stop saying BS all the time bro, I wasn't talking about serves and neither were you, you said this:

never mind that people can actually hit 230km/h quite easily in real life

It isn't true, at all.

 

[Brandnewkid]

Little fun fact, but a lot of moves in PoT are very loosely based on real martial arts moves. Take Fuji's Kirin Otoshi which is an obvious homage to the famous Ono-ha Ittō-ryū technique, the Kiri Otoshi.

 

[Hardy]

I was thinking about this the other day. Niou's Ilussion really lets him synchro with anyone? I mean, yeah, he can become a Mutsu (to synchro with another Mutsu), Kikumaru (to synchro with Oishi), and probably any other player in a synchro pair... but what about non synchro pairs?

In his match with Atobe, that synchro probably only worked cause Atobe is an arrogant jerk... would that work with Kaidoh for example? Maybe we overestimated his doubles skills...

 

[-Ken-]

I was thinking about this the other day. Niou's Ilussion really lets him synchro with anyone? I mean, yeah, he can become a Mutsu (to synchro with another Mutsu), Kikumaru (to synchro with Oishi), and probably any other player in a synchro pair... but what about non synchro pairs?

In his match with Atobe, that synchro probably only worked cause Atobe is an arrogant jerk... would that work with Kaidoh for example? Maybe we overestimated his doubles skills...

In the match with Atobe, he pass the requirement of "being in great peril" because the pair were losing when the syncho trigger off. It is unknown if he can pull it off always or not.

 

[Ninomiya]

I was thinking about this the other day. Niou's Ilussion really lets him synchro with anyone? I mean, yeah, he can become a Mutsu (to synchro with another Mutsu), Kikumaru (to synchro with Oishi), and probably any other player in a synchro pair... but what about non synchro pairs?

In his match with Atobe, that synchro probably only worked cause Atobe is an arrogant jerk... would that work with Kaidoh for example? Maybe we overestimated his doubles skills...

Hmmm...
I think Niou can Synchro with anybody at the moment.
I think it only happened at the moment Ochi and Mouri were going to finish off Atobe/Niou because for Niou to grow and strengthen his Illusion ability he needs to be on the brink of getting crushed.
Like almost every MSer.
Nearly all MSers on the brink of getting completely shat on tend to grow.
Examples of players who were getting shat on and then came back as beasts:
Echizen Ryoma VS Yukimura Seiichi Momoshiro/Kenya VS Hara/Taira
Sanada Genichiro VS Yukimura Seiichi
Atobe Keigo VS Irie Kanata
Kaidoh/Inui VS Kirihara/Yanagi
Kirihara VS Krauser
Fuji. S VS Shiraishi
Fuji. S VS Niou

I could go on.
Well that is my theory at least.
I think Niou is indeed the best Doubles player in the series and can perform Synchro with anybody.

 

[Phantron]

I'd think Niou can synchronize with anyone by just illusioning as that guy because the basis of synchro is that both guys know each other like the back of your hand. Well by definition you also know yourself like the back of your hand. The only reason he wouldn't synchronize is if he is significantly weaker/stronger than his partner, in this case the synchro wouldn't be meaningful. Let's say Tezuka at nationals team up with Niou and they're playing 2 Sanadas. The real Tezuka could come up with a plan like he'll use Phantom to draw out a Rin, then Niou smashes the ball, and then they swap roles (to reduce damage from Phantom), and when they have 4 games they each do 4 ZSS on their serve to win. However at this point Niou will point out he can't use ZSS at this point and probably can't sustain Phantom nearly as long as the real Tezuka, so this strategy wouldn't work. Now Tezuka can lower his level to match that of Niou, but if you're fighting against 2 Sanadas then 2XNiou level characters obviously is just going to get steamrolled so not much point to do that either.

Niou didn't synchronize with Atobe early on, and I'm guessing it's because it takes time for him to figure out how to illusion all of Atobe's abilities correctly. He didn't start out as an illusion against Fuji either, and he told Sanada to be quiet because he's gathering info, so there's presumably some gathering intel phase before he can perfect his illusions. Of course he can illusion as a weak version of Atobe and synchro, but that wouldn't be any good against their competition.

 

[-Ken-]

How do people think syncho interact with people who are bad at doubles, like Echizen?

And how does it intereact with aura, such as PoP?

 

[Kaoz]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 118 and 119 Discussion/Predictions

Dunno Kaoz, Saiki has only been countered with Closed Eyes, right? It should still be pretty awesome (for, at least, the 11/20 HSers). The regular Muga or Hyaku Ren would do wonders against Tohno or Date I guess.

I think Saiki can be countered when you have high enough mental actually. Like there's definitely some way to break it given that both Tachibana and Tezuka have done so even if we don't know what it is exactly. As for Hyakuren, I think it also depends a bit on your actual power stat (although I don't have much in terms of evidence for this); since Niou only has a base power of 2, I don't think he'd be able to use it effectively against Date for example.

 

[Ninomiya]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 118 and 119 Discussion/Predictions

I think Saiki can be countered when you have high enough mental actually. Like there's definitely some way to break it given that both Tachibana and Tezuka have done so even if we don't know what it is exactly.

Agreed.
I think it can be understood that Saiki can be broken if the opponents stats are able to exceed your own?
Example, we can assume Tachibana had just 1 base stat point higher than Chitose did back at Nationals since it is very reasonable they improved at the same rate at the camp.
Also, if the opponent has a Mental stat exceeding 5, its likely that the move isn't so effective? This is just a theory though.

@Hardy, we also saw Saiki broken by Sanada's In btw.

As for Hyakuren, I think it also depends a bit on your actual power stat (although I don't have much in terms of evidence for this); since Niou only has a base power of 2, I don't think he'd be able to use it effectively against Date for example.

This is a good point. Sanada's power exceeds Tezuka's, with counter moves like Fuu/Ka/Rin/Rai/Zan which can all give boosts independent to stats.

However Hyakku Ren for Niou worked on Fuji cause Fuji isn't a particularly physically strong player. Same reason as to why Tezuka could do it to Kite and Yamato.
It works on opponents who have a lower power than them, or don't have a Special move that allows them to compete with Hyakku Ren.
But I believe as long as the opponent as a Tech stat above 5 it seems that Hyakku Ren loses its relevance.

Since with Tech above 5, a player should be able to simply hit back softer well placed shots so that Hyakku Ren's effect doesn't mean much.
Hence why Niou didn't bother to bring out Hyakku Ren against Ochi/Mouri and why Ryoma needed to bring out Saiki against Yukimura.

Long story short, Hyakku Ren being the first door, is definitely lower than the 2nd door then the same with Saiki Kanpatsu and Teni Muhou.

 

[Hardy]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 118 and 119 Discussion/Predictions

I never understood the logic in countering Hyakuren. I'm talking about hitting weak shots on porpuse.

Ok, so, you HAVE to hit slow balls, not even with a spin, and the opponent can still hit the ball in the same way he did before getting into Hyakuren. Sure, you're avoiding the ¨powerful mirror¨ effect, but how can you win a point like that? You're not really countering it, you're just avoiding it.

@Airgrimes, it's pretty clear that I brain farted when I said that Saiki had only 1 counter, lol.

 

[Ninomiya]

Re: Shin Prince of Tennis Chapter 118 and 119 Discussion/Predictions

@Airgrimes, it's pretty clear that I brain farted when I said that Saiki had only 1 counter, lol.

Lol, Indeed I just added that for the sake of those reading the discussion.
You'll notice from the view count that many who don't have accounts read the Chptr Discussions thread on MH forums.
I was reading the Chptr Discussion many months before I made an MH account for instance.

Ok, so, you HAVE to hit slow balls, not even with a spin, and the opponent can still hit the ball in the same way he did before getting into Hyakuren. Sure, you're avoiding the ¨powerful mirror¨ effect, but how can you win a point like that? You're not really countering it, you're just avoiding it.

It seems that Yukimura hit simply well placed shots that Ryoma couldn't get to.
I think its not just soft shots but the fact that Hyakku Ren can drain stamina but if the opponent hits a shot far away from you, you can't use Hyakku Ren in the same way.
This is proved by Tezuka VS Yamato.
Tezuka had TPhantom & Hyakku Ren out at the same time but the score was 5-4.
So it means Hyakku Ren doesn't work if the opponent hits a well placed shot away from you, and even if you get a touch it may not be enough of a touch to hit a Doubled Return properly.

I'm not saying this is concrete, but this is what the series has depicted thus far imho

 

[Hardy]

This thread is dead but I guess this discussion goes here.

It seems that Yukimura hit simply well placed shots that Ryoma couldn't get to.
I think its not just soft shots but the fact that Hyakku Ren can drain stamina but if the opponent hits a shot far away from you, you can't use Hyakku Ren in the same way.
This is proved by Tezuka VS Yamato.
Tezuka had TPhantom & Hyakku Ren out at the same time but the score was 5-4.
So it means Hyakku Ren doesn't work if the opponent hits a well placed shot away from you, and even if you get a touch it may not be enough of a touch to hit a Doubled Return properly.

I'm not saying this is concrete, but this is what the series has depicted thus far imho

Nono, I think that's exactly the definition the series gave, well placed weak shots counter Hyakuren, I just never saw the logic behind it. It should be almost impossible to win a point, but your opponent has the same chances he had before going into Hyakuren. That prolly forces longer points (unless the weak shots are so bad that your opponent has literally free shots) and yeah, it might become a stamina battle. But wasn't Tezuka able to move his aura in order to counter that?

 

[Kaoz]

Tezuka didn't use Hyakuren and Phantom at the same time against Yamato. And he never moved his Hyakuren from his left arm either. He got the lead without any special moves, then when Yamato used GUYU, Tezuka started using Phantom to counter that. At 4-4 Tezuka stopped using Phantom, saw through the illusion and started using Hyakuren.

EDIT: Moved the other posts of this discussion over here.

---------- Post added at 07:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 AM ----------

So it means Hyakku Ren doesn't work if the opponent hits a well placed shot away from you, and even if you get a touch it may not be enough of a touch to hit a Doubled Return properly.

This is definitely true and can be seen in Ryoma vs Yukimura as well. Ryoma is still using Hyakuren after starting to lose his senses, but it seems like the doubled return has vanished completely at that point.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/prince_of_tennis/c375/11.html

---------- Post added February 18, 2014 at 08:03 AM ---------- Previous post was February 15, 2014 at 07:21 AM ----------

Let's talk about GS and Kijin a bit, or more specifically them apparently giving an unmeasurable boost to the user. Why do you think that is?

For GS, I feel that it's connected to the variable size of the aura. As we've seen in the last chapter, Tokugawa pulled out a much greater aura than what we had seen before. So if it's theoretically possible to pull out an infinite amount of the other dimensional power (which doesn't seem to be dependent on technique or anything?), that would mean the boost someone gets from it cannot be consistently determined.

As for Kijin, its destructive force seems to depend on the power of the opponent's shot. Like against Kaji, it did some damage, but he didn't bleed as much as Byoudouin did when his GS was returned. And now when Tokugawa's more powerful GS got hit back, it blasted straight through a wall. So if Kijin's power relies on the opponent's power completely, it would again be impossible to consistently assign a boost to it.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[Kaoz]

I'd like to discuss Duke Homerun a bit. First, do you think it uses the Super Sweet Spot? Second, if it does and if Sai's SSS theory is correct, how much of DH's power comes from DH itself and how much from reflecting the 108th Hadokyuu?

 

[Hardy]

Uhm, in which chapters we saw Gin vs Duke? Too lazy to go through so many chapters tbh.

I didn't really think that Duke could hit a SSS... and if that's the case, I think that DH is more of his own power than his opponent's. I mean, if he was able to hit SSS, then he was hitting them since the first point in the game... but he didn't do a massive Homerun until he went 100%.

 

[Kaoz]

Chapter 83.

And well, Gin probably wasn't using 108th Style Hadokyuus until that game either, so there wasn't much to reflect really.

 

[Hardy]

He was very likely hitting <108 Hadous, lol.

Chapter 83.

Omg that match is even crappier than what I remembered, it's 3 pages long and we don't see Duke hit the ball once.

For now, I'll say that he can't hit the SSS.

 

[Ninomiya]

I'd like to discuss Duke Homerun a bit. First, do you think it uses the Super Sweet Spot? Second, if it does and if Sai's SSS theory is correct, how much of DH's power comes from DH itself and how much from reflecting the 108th Hadokyuu?

I'm of the opinion that he wasn't using the SSS against Gin.
I just feel that Konomi wanted to underline that having a 7 in a stat, and then combining it with a special shot simply has devastating effects.
I don't feel Duke was using SSS so early on since we were yet to have it revealed to us until like a couple matches after that.