Seinen Vagabond by Inoue Takehiko

Aqsa

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Re: Vagabond Discussion Thread

What are you majoring in Japanese for if you don't mind me asking?
 

Aqsa

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks

It's true that hard work can beat talent when talent doesn't work hard.

However, the concept I speak of is portrayed well even in Vagabond. For example; look at Musashi and Matahachi. Despite being Musashi's companion and going through the same tribulations at Sekigahara, why do you think Musashi is at this point in the story a reknowned swordsman, while Matahachi is a blithering, fraudulent human being? In voulme 2 (I believe, might have to double check), Matahachi describes the difference between him and Musashi having been born with something he "doesn't have." Musashi was simply born with an extremely athletic physique as well as an aptitude for killing and fighting- Matahachi does not possess either one of those traits. Hozoin In'ei also describes Inshun as a "natural born genius". Hyogonosuke, Seijuro, and especially Kojiro are all perfect examples of this natural born genius.

How else would a deaf-mute boy with no formal training in martial arts be able to take down over a 100 men in the aftermath of Sekigahara as well as defeat the 3 out of the 6 highly skilled Western Army soldiers (The group led by Koun, you remember).

Now you can argue this is all fiction, but since you asked, I'll give you a personal example.

Ever since I was a kid, I always loved basketball. You might know that in order to play basketball, you need to be blessed with height, speed, and the natural ability to jump. Not to sound too cocky, but I was naturally born with an aptitude for running fast, something which I inherited genetically through my father, for all the men on my dad's side of the family are pretty proficient runners. However, I was not gifted with height (I'm 5' 10''), nor the ability to jump very high. Ever wondered why the NBA is predominantly black nowadays? It's not because people other races have lost interest, it's just that blacks are generally born with the attributes that are perfect for playing basketball.

As a result, I eventually dropped basketball, as no matter how hard I worked, I had my own natural limits. However, I did have a natural aptitude for soccer, as I'm coordinated and I have speed. Also, there isn't as much an emphasis on height or jumping ability in soccer.

I also have an aptitude for writing (I know it doesn't show - whatever, it's an internet forum), and I actually won a full ride to a university due to a essay of mine in a writing contest and have been ranked among the top 4% in the nation in a writing contest.

One of the reasons I relate to Vagabond so well, and rank it as my number one when it comes to manga, is because of the flawless portrayal of concepts of life like these. Inoue has created a very down-to-earth manga without the rather unrealistic Shonen "YOU CAN DO ANYTHING IF YOU TRY" attitude. This manga is infinitely more mature in its philosophy and content, and that's why I appreciate it, and that's why it's classified as a seinen manga. Experienced people will relate to this fine, but I really don't expect children or even some teenagers to relate to many important concepts.

Hope this all makes sense.
 

Aqsa

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Re: WATER & SUMI

We've already made a thread about this. Look a little below this one.
 

Nomiya

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Re: WATER & SUMI

Sorry about that ;)
 

zindryr

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks

Topics merged.
 

NeoShweaty

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks

damn it, i am a broke college student and this comes out. I mean, i can buy the volumes every now and then but this *grumble* why do i have to choose between manga and...ahem, illicit substances...

Oh well, i guess next pay check i got to buy one of them.


Also, i was going to say that if you have talent but dont refine it, it doesnt mean anything. I mean take me for example, i guess artistic ability runs in the family because my bro and i could draw pretty well from an early age. I drew every now and then but he really cultivated it. I eventually lost interest and he is going to an art school in manhattan. The point is, no matter how good you are, you HAVE to work at it to get anywhere.
 

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks

Yeah, that's why I said "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard". :amuse
 

zindryr

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218 Discussion [Vagabond]

218 RAW is out. Check the RTS thread
Discuss!

Translation by zindryr
Edited Manga by Strays

Summary Spoilered:
The end of the fight. Denshichiro latches onto Musashi, only to realize that along with severing Denshichiro's arm, Musashi has also cut deeply into Denshichiro's side. His intestines spill out, and he dies. His last thoughts are of his father. Old hag gets pissed and leaves. Otsu doesn't go running up to Musashi. Denshichiro's wife and child deliver a letter to Ueda that says that his expulsion is only as long as Denshichiro is alive.
 

Aqsa

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Re: 218 Discussion [Vagabond]

By far one of the most tense and eventful chapters of Vagabond I've yet to read. I seriously enjoyed reading this.

I was surprised to see Musashi once again going two-handed on us. He hadn't used this since his fight with Baiken. I was a little confused, as I didn't really know what the hell was going on once Den had grabbed Musashi. Musashi really has come a long way. Just a year ago he got his ass kicked by these two brothers, now he's come back and destroyed their entire school. Ueda no longer being expelled was also a nice twist. I thought Ueda would end up dying as well fighting Kojiro.

Anyway, the next chapter should be interesting as this pretty much ends the Yoshioka saga. I wonder where the hell Musashi will be headed to fight next. Also interested to see how things with him and Otsu end up.

Calling it right now - the next chapter will be dedicated majorly to Matahachi's misadventures, I just know Inoue's gonna do it.

Added spoiler tags for you, for future refrence [spoiler][/spoiler] are the tags needed to do spoilers - Fuzzy
 

ironthought

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks

so with Matahachi vs Musashi we can look at nature vs. nurture. Musashi's dad was a total pyscho, he was scared he kid would grow up to beat him so he was probably abusive. he even slept with a sword. it seems like Musashi spent most of his time in the mountains alone have to fend for himself as a child. you could say that he must've had something about him that allowed him to survive or that he did what he had to do to survive. this also put him in a class by himself. having been in so many life or death situations allowed him to be able to put all of his spirit into his fights, cause he had to. Matahachi on the other hand, did grow up with Takezo but he didnt live his life, he never had that type of horrible suffering that Musashi had. no one shunned him and called him a demon. and it seems like Matahachi's mom spoils him. Even though Mathachi was 21 his mother and his uncle where out looking for him, like he was a lost child. he never had to put everything on the line in order to survive.

i am glad you mentioned you used to play basketball, i also used to play ball, and i had the same problem. i am a 6' 3" tall center. i went to school in brooklyn, NY and alot of the people i played against went on to play Division I college level ball. i played division III ball when i went to college, but in high school i was able to hold my own against some huge guys. i guess what i am trying to say is that i dont think people are born with talent, i think people fall in love with something and are able to put there all into it. your thing was soccer you put your all into it and now your good, but you didnt start good. and musashi also started off bad. in the earlier part of the manga he is really just swinging a stick around violently. but it isnt until after he meets saski kojiro that he realizes he has had it wrong all this time.
i have been studying martial arts for the past 5 years. this is what i love. in martial arts my sifu decribes the way you progress like this, you start off learning forms and techniques and you train at it religiously, trying to perfect your form. then you get good and people can see how powerful you are. but thats not the end. the next part is to hide that power. you dont want to flaunt your strength In'ei hoizion and the yagyu guy had that. they both just looked like regular old men. even inshun didnt recogize his masters power. when musashi asks him who is strong inshun says he is. and denchishiro couldnt recognize the skill level of the Yagyu guy (forgot his name). he totally overlooked the flower stem. but musashi recognized it and that helped him to get better and to realize trying to be invincible was a futile effort.
everyone has the same potential. but some people are put in vertain situations that allow them to realize it, and others just go through life. is that a good thing or a bad thing? who knows. would you want to live out a childhood like musashi or kojiro so people would call you a genius? imagine what kinda pain they went through to make them that like that.
 

Aqsa

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks

You can argue that part of Musashi's nurturing is what caused his fighting spirit to grow, but you also have to realize that Musashi is the one who put himself into life or death situations. Musashi is the one who obliged Arima Kihei's challenge at age 13, and he's the one who chose to go to Sekigahara out of his own accord. Takuan goes on to say "you enemies were not your enemies until you made them your enemies" (See volume 2). As for you saying Musashi didn't start good, I also have to disagree. Musashi was taking down grown men left and right at age 17. Read volumes 1 and 2, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Musashi was already much stronger than the average man even as a kid. He was taking out gangs of hunters, much like Kojiro was, and he never recieved formal training. You should also read volume 18, as both Musashi and Kojiro fight together at Sekigahara.

By the way 6' 3'' is more like the height of a guard at college level, not a center, bud. :p
Since we're on basketball, I might as well refer you to Lebron James. He was 18 when he first got into the NBA, yet he was still dunking over guys who have been in the league for years. I'm pretty sure the older guys have been through a lot more training and had a lot more experience than the rookie Lebron, yet he was still putting up an average of 24 points a night. That's a perfect example of natural born talent right there. If life was as easy as just working hard, everybody would be doctors, lawyers, professional athletes, and computer engineers. Life just doesn't work like that.
 

ironthought

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks

the reason more people arent doctors and lawyers, and professional athelets is because they they dont work hard. it takes a tremedous amount of training to do any of those professions, and still people fail. theres no way you could be a natural born doctor. you just gotta work at it. i agree that Musashi was beating people by 13 but he wasnt a good swordsman, he was a crazy demon child. he was stronger than the average man, but the average man doesnt try to make much of himself, like Matahachi. he dreams of being something but never puts in the effort. after a while Musashi seeked out people to fight, but when he was with his dad he didnt have a choice. and when he was in the mountains and the whole village shunned him he didnt have a choice he was just a littel kid. all the guys musashi beat before he went to the Yosioka where no challenge, thats why he had a false sense of strength, and thats why he fled in fear from Inshun. Takuan also calls his weak. in the second or third volume Takuan says musashi is the weakest one in the village.

back to Basketball, you dont have to remind me how short i was compared to those guys i still have nightmares about it :smile-big , but regardless of my height i still started over another guy who was 6' 7". and he was technically better than me, but he didnt play as hard as i did. and i could hold my own with the big guys, because i played hard, i put my all into it cause i loved. i played alot like Charles Oakley from the knicks.

Lebron James is good cause he wanted to be good, everyday he did what he had to do to be the best, he didnt worry about whether he had talent he earned it. Michael Jordan got cut from his high school basketball tryout, so he couldnt of had natural talent, but he had the desire and the will power to earn the talent, he suffered for it. just like doctors and lawyers, those guys go to school for atleast 8 years and study incredibly complicated material. everyones brain functions the same way, but some people use it to its full potential and others dont.
 

NeoShweaty

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks

okay y'all, i think you both drew your lines in the sand. Let's focus on these here books from now on and not the innate vs. taught/learned thing because it many philosophers devoted careers to the stuff and there is still no definitive answer.
 

ironthought

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks

oh man, i think we could've solved it in a couple more posts.
 

Aqsa

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks

I know that some of you may be tired of reading this, but I think we all know where to find Water and Sumi, so this isn't really harming anybody. :amuse
You're right, he wasn't skilled when he was 13, he was born with natural physical attributes that just allowed him to overtake a grown man. His father was also an accomplished swordsman, even beating Yoshioka Kempo. Ever considered that perhaps that this physical talent and aptitude for fighting was something genetically passed to him by his father?

And I don't know what you're talking about, but Matahachi is working his ass off to be Musashi's equal. Matahachi is also an above-average fighter, he's just not superlative like Musashi. The Matahachi-Musashi relationship is a perfect example of the concept I'm trying to get across to you. Matahachi was able to beat all the men in his village while he was still a child, yet he could never beat Musashi. Despite being above average as a fighter and training daily with Musashi, he could not beat him. Inoue tries to show the bounds of a normal human being when compared to somebody who will eventually go on to be a legend.

An old coach of mine who played ball in semi-pro until he was 40 years old told me that you need two things to make it to the pros: an indominatable work ethic, and you must be a genetic freak. Think back to Musashi, and I think we can safely call him a genetic freak to the umpteenth degree when it comes to being blessed with physical ability. The same goes for all the fighters in Vagabond who are in the upper echelon such as Kojiro, Seijuro, Inshun, and Koun.

This topic is off-topic enough and not really relevant to discussion of the books. There aint much to say about it but none of this nature vs. nurture stuff fits.
 

NeoShweaty

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks and how to draw

changed the topic to reflect the change

http://www.flow-er.co.jp/

Inoue is releasing a dvd about how he fuckin draws!!!! I need to get my hands on that one.
 

ironthought

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks and how to draw

Oh man!! i must get that DVD!!! just looking at the little trailer they showed made me salivate!!!do you guys have all region dvd players? cause the Inoue DVD will most likely be in Region 2 encoded.
 

Nomiya

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Re: Vagabond Sumi and Water artbooks and how to draw

OMG! I need this dvd!!! where can I dowload it or buy it or something????? please, somebody knows something about it???
 
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