Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2019] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Halloween]

No, EIC of Jump+ is Hosono

Nak said in an interview that he oversees the digital side of things as well. I can't recall exactly what he said, though.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 11, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 11, 2019 ---

Gotta say one thing: I am fairly surprised Samurai 8 isn't doing better in the magazine, regardless of how good or bad it is. I thought Naruto fans would help it be up with voting, but seems mangaka's name doesn't help in that aspect.

I don't doubt sales should be OK at worst, and it's been improving recently so hoping for a rise in the near future. Kind of pains me to see it in Bottom 3.

Jovan, let me ask you something. In your heart of hearts, do you HONESTLY believe that more people are voting for Yui Kamio and Double Taisai than the latest Kishi series? Can you square that circle? That doesn't seem extremely odd and out of place to you?

Because to me, it just further cements my opinion that nak is purposely putting it in the back.

 

[Teennitro]

We are having in Discord a discussion abot best Shonen Jump rivalries. Here is my top 10 (my opinion):

Spoiler

1st place: Ryuji and Kenzaki (Ring ni Kakero)

2nd place: Yugi and Kaiba (Yu-Gi-Oh!)

3rd place: Tsubasa and Hyuga (Captain Tsubasa)

4th place: Goku and Vegeta (Dragon Ball)

5th place: Light and L (Death Note)

6th place: Naruto and Sasuke (Naruto)

7th place: Asta and Yuno (Black Clover)

8th place: Yonagi and Chiyoko (Act-age)

9th place: Midoriya and Bakugou (My Hero Academia)

10th place: tie between Urameshi and Kuwabara (Yu Yu Hakusho), and Kenshiro and Raoh (Fist of North Star)

Extra mentions to Kenshin and Sanosuke (Kenshin), and Seiya and Ikki (Saint Seiya)

I don't recall if Ryoma had a rivalry in Prince of Tennis btw

7th place: Asta and Yuno? Their rivalry is bland

 

[Shinuki no Reborn]

Nak said in an interview that he oversees the digital side of things as well. I can't recall exactly what he said, though.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 11, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 11, 2019 ---

Jovan, let me ask you something. In your heart of hearts, do you HONESTLY believe that more people are voting for Yui Kamio and Double Taisai than the latest Kishi series? Can you square that circle? That doesn't seem extremely odd and out of place to you?

Because to me, it just further cements my opinion that nak is purposely putting it in the back.

I can see with Kamio Yui since isnt the first time the manga is above Samurai 8 but not a chance in hell that Taisei got more votes than S8 kkkk

 

[Halloween]

I can see with Kamio Yui since isnt the first time the manga is above Samurai 8 but not a chance in hell that Taisei got more votes than S8 kkkk

Exactly! And you can kinda maybe sorta see how Yui might have did it, since that's also from a veteran mangaka. But Double Taisei? In what universe are there not enough residual Naruto fans to blindly vote for Sam8 out of sheer loyalty to Kishi for it to not AT LEAST beat out that series?

No, this screams editor placement. There's just no way.

 

[Rain Spectre]

You realize the TOC isn't an actual grading, right, just a relative based on advertising priorities and popularity, no? No shit Samurai 8 likely is do comparatively better to Taisei, but it's still not doing well enough considering the expectation it has on itself, hence Jump pushing it to the back.

Frankly, I find this train of thought rather questionable, making wild conspiracy theories on Samurai 8's low placements being some kind of "master plan", in spite of the interest not being massive and the reception being at best mixed. It simply seems more likely that Occam's Razor is in effect here.

 

[lgrmjauffre]

You realize the TOC isn't an actual grading, right, just a relative based on advertising priorities and popularity, no? No shit Samurai 8 likely is do comparatively better to Taisei, but it's still not doing well enough considering the expectation it has on itself, hence Jump pushing it to the back.

Frankly, I find this train of thought rather questionable, making wild conspiracy theories on Samurai 8's low placements being some kind of "master plan", in spite of the interest not being massive and the reception being at best mixed. It simply seems more likely that Occam's Razor is in effect here.

I've been wondering this for a while, but do you have any sort of source or proof of this "at best mixed" reception you constantly bring up? Because personally I'm not getting that feel. Like at all. Buranchi is right. Even without blind speculation, it makes sense that there'd be enough Kishimoto fans to easily out vote any new series. It's placement is more likely deliberate to help out the back of the magazine than it is that it's just not doing well.

 

[Halloween]

Rain, I specifically told you to cut that rhetoric out. Not only that, but everything you just said is assumption. You have no proof that it's being put in the back due to poor reception. That's you projecting your personal opinion as fact, which you do frequently.

Furthermore, we've known for a long time that the ToC isn't accurate. Do you honestly think more people are voting for Dr. Stone and Black Clover than My Hero Academia consistently?

Nak is placing these series entirely where he wants them. There's overwhelming evidence to that fact. Like, I honestly think you're trolling at this point. How do you continuously downplay the importance of Kishi's name?

He has thousands who love him and would vote for whatever series he did JUST because he's the creator of Naruto. No, this isn't a conspiracy theory, it's using common sense. That's why I said to wait for the sales, but honestly, I'm pretty sure the series is going to sell extremely well anyway.

 

[Jovan]

Rain, I specifically told you to cut that rhetoric out. Not only that, but everything you just said is assumption. You have no proof that it's being put in the back due to poor reception. That's you projecting your personal opinion as fact, which you do frequently.

Furthermore, we've known for a long time that the ToC isn't accurate. Do you honestly think more people are voting for Dr. Stone and Black Clover than My Hero Academia consistently?

Nak is placing these series entirely where he wants them. There's overwhelming evidence to that fact. Like, I honestly think you're trolling at this point. How do you continuously downplay the importance of Kishi's name?

He has thousands who love him and would vote for whatever series he did JUST because he's the creator of Naruto. No, this isn't a conspiracy theory, it's using common sense. That's why I said to wait for the sales, but honestly, I'm pretty sure the series is going to sell extremely well anyway.

You are assuming people are using that poll (which is top 3 chapters of the issue) as a popularity contest, which it's not.
While I think Samurai 8 probably outvotes the other newbies, it is probably by such a little margin the high expectations come in.

You don't put a high profile series like this in the bottom just because.

 

[Rain Spectre]

I've been wondering this for a while, but do you have any sort of source or proof of this "at best mixed" reception you constantly bring up? Because personally I'm not getting that feel. Like at all. Buranchi is right. Even without blind speculation, it makes sense that there'd be enough Kishimoto fans to easily out vote any new series. It's placement is more likely deliberate to help out the back of the magazine than it is that it's just not doing well.

Go on literally any internet forum and bring up Samurai 8 and you'll an absolute mass of differing reactions. 5ch especially seems to hate the series, just recently a thread was posted where the users went ape at the latest chapter and it's exposition dump.

I ask you, what is more likely:

1. Nakano decided on a "master plan" to place Samurai 8 in the bag of the magazine in spite of Shueisha hyping the series up for months and the bottom zone having had for years very negative connotations as part of an elaborate scheme to draw more attention to the back of the magazine.

2. Samurai 8 underpreforming in Jump's eyes, and getting moved to the back as a result.

Rain, I specifically told you to cut that rhetoric out. Not only that, but everything you just said is assumption. You have no proof that it's being put in the back due to poor reception. That's you projecting your personal opinion as fact, which you do frequently.

Furthermore, we've known for a long time that the ToC isn't accurate. Do you honestly think more people are voting for Dr. Stone and Black Clover than My Hero Academia consistently?

Nak is placing these series entirely where he wants them. There's overwhelming evidence to that fact. Like, I honestly think you're trolling at this point. How do you continuously downplay the importance of Kishi's name?

He has thousands who love him and would vote for whatever series he did JUST because he's the creator of Naruto. No, this isn't a conspiracy theory, it's using common sense. That's why I said to wait for the sales, but honestly, I'm pretty sure the series is going to sell extremely well anyway.

For starters, this isn't me trying to even discuss Samurai 8, this is me pointing out how silly your purposed "explanation" really is.

Secondly, you yourself are contradicting yourself multiple times here. You're arguing that Samurai 8's placement is some kind of deliberate scheme of editorial in spite of such a thing making little to no sense, yet are arguing that I'm making assumptions by saying Samurai 8 has had a mixed reception, which even talking to the people here says is absolutely true.

Thirdly, you seem to go on an assumption that all of Naruto's fans would instantly jump on the series purely because of Kishi's name value. That's literally untrue and can be proven as such with easy cases such as Kuroko to Robot (former was outselling Naruto for the last three years of its run, latter started on less 100k and declined from there) and Fairy Tail to Eden's Zero (former was in the Top 10 for a few years, latter is struggling to sell 100k in spite of Mashima being gone for less than a year). Audiences change. People move on. The readership of Jump is different to what it was in 2014 when Naruto ended, and arguing that Kishi coming back 4.5 years later would bring all those former folks back is simply impossible.

 

[Halloween]

You are assuming people are using that poll (which is top 3 chapters of the issue) as a popularity contest, which it's not.
While I think Samurai 8 probably outvotes the other newbies, it is probably by such a little margin the high expectations come in.

You don't put a high profile series like this in the bottom just because.

Sorry, I'm not buying it. There's been cases where OP has had genuinely bad chapters, and it still ranked 1st.

It absolutely is, without a doubt, a popularity contest. Even ignoring that though, Nak loves to push series constantly. Even if it's undeserved.

You're saying he's purposely going out of his way not to push a series from Kishi? Kishi, the creator of Naruto, the highest selling series in Jump's history under One Piece.

 

[Jovan]

You're saying he's purposely going out of his way not to push a series from Kishi? Kishi, the creator of Naruto, the highest selling series in Jump's history under One Piece.

Dr Stone and Kimetsu no Yaiba have anime ongoing, so it's no surprise there. One Piece is in the league on it's own global popularity and sales wise though. Can't really compare it with anything in the magazine. They don't push anything else, not even Jujutsu/Act Age that failed to get more than a single cover this year so far.

So, no. Nak isn't going out of his way here. For the last like what 19 years, Jump never had a manga in the bottom for no reason. That was probably one of the constant things about the magazine.

 

[Paze]

A less popular series could get more votes then a more popular series. Not that many people vote anyway and maybe a lot that do vote for series that aren't their favorite because another series had a chapter they liked more.

 

[TheEnhancedExe]

I've been wondering this for a while, but do you have any sort of source or proof of this "at best mixed" reception you constantly bring up? Because personally I'm not getting that feel. Like at all. Buranchi is right. Even without blind speculation, it makes sense that there'd be enough Kishimoto fans to easily out vote any new series. It's placement is more likely deliberate to help out the back of the magazine than it is that it's just not doing well.

This is blind speculation though. Sure, there might be some Kishimoto fans, but most people who read Naruto were Naruto fans, which doesn't necessarily mean they will be fans of Kishimotos other works. I mean we have a good comparison with Robot x Laserbeam which still ranked low and eventually got cancelled despite being done by a popular mangaka. The way you're speculating, the same should've applied for RxL, but it still got cancelled, because of it.

Also, whenever a new Jump manga is doing well in polls, they always push it further to the front of the magazine. If Samurai 8 was actually popular in polls, why would they do the opposite and push it to the back of the magazine where less people will read it? It wouldn't make any sense at all. Especially if they do that only for Samurai 8, but push every other new manga that does well in polls to the front.

Also, why would they want to help the back of the magazine. Iirc one of the editors once said in an interview that they sometimes decide after only three weeks that a series will get cancelled. Why would they do that to promote manga that are already pretty much guaranteed to get cancelled anyways?

 

[Jovan]

It's placement is more likely deliberate to help out the back of the magazine than it is that it's just not doing well.

Igrmajauffre, I love your posts. But this seems like a giant stretch. People know what is in the magazine, TOC serves the purpose. They aren't going to read a specific series they dropped or never started just because it is after the popular one.

 

[Rain Spectre]

I know people tend to be irritated when I bring up the Amazon rankings, but it bares saying here. When you look at the rankings for the series releasing in October, most of them are in the range of about 2000 or so. OP is 22, Kimetsu is 100, Neverland, Black Clover, Jujutsu and SxF are in the 100s range, Chainsaw and Yuuna are around 1000, and so on.

Where is Samurai 8?

14000

I know that I can't use these numbers as hard estimates, but the difference is still very telling. If Samurai 8 was really popular enough to where it would supposedly believing this "theory", then wouldn't the metric be closer? It speaks to me that the series is genuinely struggling to gather an audience, in spite of everything Shueisha had given it.

Igrmajauffre, I love your posts. But this seems like a giant stretch. People know what is in the magazine, TOC serves the purpose.

Occam's Razor. The belief that the thought process that needs the fewest leaps in logic is usually the correct one.

 

[lgrmjauffre]

This is blind speculation though. Sure, there might be some Kishimoto fans, but most people who read Naruto were Naruto fans, which doesn't necessarily mean they will be fans of Kishimotos other works. I mean we have a good comparison with Robot x Laserbeam which still ranked low and eventually got cancelled despite being done by a popular mangaka. The way you're speculating, the same should've applied for RxL, but it still got cancelled, because of it.

Also, whenever a new Jump manga is doing well in polls, they always push it further to the front of the magazine. If Samurai 8 was actually popular in polls, why would they do the opposite and push it to the back of the magazine where less people will read it? It wouldn't make any sense at all. Especially if they do that only for Samurai 8, but push every other new manga that does well in polls to the front.

Also, why would they want to help the back of the magazine. Iirc one of the editors once said in an interview that they sometimes decide after only three weeks that a series will get cancelled. Why would they do that to promote manga that are already pretty much guaranteed to get cancelled anyways?

It's entirely reasonable blind speculation is my point. And assuming the three weeks thing was ever true and prominent, it likely isn't today. Why would they let all these series they plan to cancel run for six months if they knew right away? We're ALL just making incorrect points and massive assumptions here. I propose we ban all irrelevant discussion of Samurai 8 outside of "I did/didn't like this week's chapter" and why until we actually see some real indication of how it is received, which the TOC and random forums making up a tiny percentage of readers are likely not.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 11, 2019, Original Post Date: Sep 11, 2019 ---

I know people tend to be irritated when I bring up the Amazon rankings, but it bares saying here. When you look at the rankings for the series releasing in October, most of them are in the range of about 2000 or so. OP is 22, Kimetsu is 100, Neverland, Black Clover, Jujutsu and SxF are in the 100s range, Chainsaw and Yuuna are around 1000, and so on.

Where is Samurai 8?

14000

I know that I can't use these numbers as hard estimates, but the difference is still very telling. If Samurai 8 was really popular enough to where it would supposedly believing this "theory", then wouldn't the metric be closer? It speaks to me that the series is genuinely struggling to gather an audience, in spite of everything Shueisha had given it.



Occam's Razor. The belief that the thought process that needs the fewest leaps in logic is usually the correct one.

Ah yes, now you're playing me for the fool just because I don't agree with your opinions. I believe I'm done with this conversation for good.

 

[Rain Spectre]

It's entirely reasonable blind speculation is my point. And assuming the three weeks thing was ever true and prominent, it likely isn't today. Why would they let all these series they plan to cancel run for six months if they knew right away? We're ALL just making incorrect points and massive assumptions here. I propose we ban all irrelevant discussion of Samurai 8 outside of "I did/didn't like this week's chapter" and why until we actually see some real indication of how it is received, which the TOC and random forums making up a tiny percentage of readers are likely not.

That comment from Bakuman was meant to be extreme. Generally speaking, though, the survey's are important in judging a new series reception.

"I don't like this conversation in spite of it being relevant to the magazine as a whole, so let's ban it!"

That's what you sound like.

 

[Franz]

I will continue to reiterate until the end, until the sales are seen Samurai is safe.

They sold the series to half the world, it is unlikely that the axed immediately.

At most it will be decided whether it will be a long or a short series, that both Kishimoto seems ready for both eventualities.

 

[lgrmjauffre]

That comment from Bakuman was meant to be extreme. Generally speaking, though, the survey's are important in judging a new series reception.

"I don't like this conversation in spite of it being relevant to the magazine as a whole, so let's ban it!"

That's what you sound like.

I don't like the conversation anymore because it has been had at least six times, serves no purpose to be brought up anymore, and serves no bearing to sway anyone's opinion. I just literally don't want to waste my time on it anymore. I want to be more active here, but by actually discussing, not whatever this always devolves into.

 

[Halloween]

I propose we ban all irrelevant discussion of Samurai 8 outside of "I did/didn't like this week's chapter" and why until we actually see some real indication of how it is received,

I'm pretty sure that's what I did, twice, but here we are, arguing about it again.

I'm being extremely lenient currently, and humoring people by honestly answering, but this is something I recently asked people to stop doing twice so far. I like Jovan, that's why I answered him despite his comments going against what I asked earlier for people not to do.

And this is exactly why. We're all just speculating, and none of it truly matters until we see the volume sales.