Discussion Yamato’s Gender

[McNuss]

What can I say?

Everything is going just as planned. Oda knows what he is doing and what debates he is causing.

There is no art without tension. Without things are boring.

This whole debatte, no matter which stance you take, is kinda off-beat from how the artist presents this topic in his story.

While progressive and ahead of its time back then, it was never politically correct. This is a writer who refers to what we nowadays would probably call queer or diverse as Okama.

End of the day, Yamato is a mirror to the readers. Which stereotypes and cliches regarding Anime/Manga this tackles is pretty obvious. And it's not politically correct, again.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

We just had a chapter where Yamato was juxtaposed directly with Kiku with the men's/women's bath houses, of course this topic was going to blow up. I got out ahead of it and resurrected this thread specifically because of that and knowing THE DISCOURSE was going to start again. This is a perfectly fine quarantine maneuver, because otherwise it's going to just spill into every single chapter release thread the same way it did when Yamato was first introduced.

I'd completely missed the Kiku part when looking over the raw scans. Noticed it when the chapter came out and so the parallel Oda drew is definitely pretty clear. Not surprised the topic came back anymore now that I've read the chapter. Very much appreciate you quarantining this conversation to this thread!

Where I'm coming from on this thread is more about sustainability of civil conversation. Oda takes his sweet time providing conclusions if he ever does so we may not have an explicit answer from Oda on Yamato's gender (not that I think it matters but clearly a lot of people seem to care). And with Yamato presumably joining the crew this topic is bound to come up many times (hopefully not every chapter). So at this point I'm thinking it might be good to add some ground rules to the thread (similar to Power Level thread) to make sure things stay civil.

 

[Zmsp]

You may think that a fictional character doesn't matter much but let me tell you about representation and how much it hurts to read people when you identify as a fictional character...

That's my point.

There's an intentional ambiguity, and the character has yet to properly explain its own view on the matter, and it probably never will. How can there be any sort of "misrepresentation" about something that has yet to be properly defined, and probably never will? Like some people said, it might be more related to personality than gender, or maybe not. It's all about how one projects their own personal feelings and views into it, so that doesn't mean that someone is inherently right, just because someone said something that was hurtful to them. Obviously, like it's also been mentioned, a few people make comments that don't come from an earnest place, but so did you.

Is it not hurtful to be called a transphobe, when you have absolutely no phobia against transgenders? Just because you disagree with a few concepts, nomenclatures or sociological views, doesn't mean you have anything against them.


Oda really missed out on the Zou poisonous weapon segment. He could've had a few characters refuse the vaccine Chopper made and started a whole new shitstorm.

 

[M3J]

This chapter answered the question, and thus I shall refer to Yamato as a "he/him" now.

 

[Uriel]

There's an intentional ambiguity, and the character has yet to properly explain its own view on the matter, and it probably never will. How can there be any sort of "misrepresentation" about something that has yet to be properly defined, and probably never will?

You don't need an answer, or going around asking about someone else gender anyway.
Also, I think it's very clear as per the latest chapter. Again, it could be just a gag (It's not the first time Oda does this)

Spoiler: latest chapter

but seeing that it put Yamato in clear contrast of Kiku is enough clarity to understand Yamato as a gender-fluid person...Not a "definitely a She" as was stated here over and over again.

a few people make comments that don't come from an earnest place, but so did you.

So it's reverse discrimination for you, got it.

Is it not hurtful to be called a transphobe, when you have absolutely no phobia against transgenders?

Then stop having transphobic behaviors. It's the very basic ask for the respect of a trans person to be called by their preferred pronouns. Well, no, the very basic is to not kill them.

Sorry to be this harsh on you, I know you have good intentions, but I want you to grow from this. When someone calls you out on behavior like this, stop and think about what you said or did.

Just because you disagree with a few concepts, nomenclatures or sociological views, doesn't mean you have anything against them.

Yes, it does.
I deeply recommend reading about Narrative Therapy and Micahel White, to understand how dominant discourses affect your life and the lives of others.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Is it not hurtful to be called a transphobe, when you have absolutely no phobia against transgenders? Just because you disagree with a few concepts, nomenclatures or sociological views, doesn't mean you have anything against them.

I desperately wish everyone that was well-meaning but not aware they're regurgitating transphobic stuff to look at the homophobia of yesteryear. "I just disagree with some concepts, nomenclatures, or sociological views" was the same exact shit enlightened wine centrists of the 80's said about gay folk 30+ years ago. It's about as insightful as saying "I'm not transphobic, because it's not a fear!" It's a surface-level examination of something that merits a bit more than that.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 11, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 11, 2022 ---

I'd completely missed the Kiku part when looking over the raw scans. Noticed it when the chapter came out and so the parallel Oda drew is definitely pretty clear. Not surprised the topic came back anymore now that I've read the chapter. Very much appreciate you quarantining this conversation to this thread!

Where I'm coming from on this thread is more about sustainability of civil conversation. Oda takes his sweet time providing conclusions if he ever does so we may not have an explicit answer from Oda on Yamato's gender (not that I think it matters but clearly a lot of people seem to care). And with Yamato presumably joining the crew this topic is bound to come up many times (hopefully not every chapter). So at this point I'm thinking it might be good to add some ground rules to the thread (similar to Power Level thread) to make sure things stay civil.

The thing is, the power level thread is generalized, and specific conversations are banned. That can't happen here, because the Yamato gender discourse is already a very specific question. What is the "Shanks vs Mihawk" of Yamato gender discourse?

 

[Zmsp]

I desperately wish everyone that was well-meaning but not aware they're regurgitating transphobic stuff to look at the homophobia of yesteryear. "I just disagree with some concepts, nomenclatures, or sociological views" was the same exact shit enlightened wine centrists of the 80's said about gay folk 30+ years ago. It's about as insightful as saying "I'm not transphobic, because it's not a fear!" It's a surface-level examination of something that merits a bit more than that.

Well, I do understand what you're saying, honestly. I should've worded that concepts and views thing a bit better, but if there's something that I also have a tendency to disagree with, is the surface-level examination, because I genuinely think it goes both ways: "I found this hurtful, I'm this/that, therefore you're against this/that". This is obviously not a targetted complaint, but a broad one, and this does happen way too often.

I've said this before: I'll always call anyone the way they ask me to (within reasonable boundaries), because it's a sociological phenomena, and should be treated as such. I've been lucky enough to work with transgenders in a very particular setting. I never had any sort of problem with any of them, and I don't believe they had any sort of problem with me.

Taking a fictional character with ambiguous traits, projecting it to be some sort of flag bearer for a cause and defining what's the right/wrong way of addressing it is what I'm against. Is there anything wrong with this? Honestly.

So it's reverse discrimination for you, got it.

You're right, I'm also glad you're not a moderator.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 11, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 11, 2022 ---

I deeply recommend reading about Narrative Therapy and Micahel White, to understand how dominant discourses affect your life and the lives of others.

I'll be sure to give it a read when I find the time.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I am as much of an ally as I can be, growing up lesbian in an abusivr Christian household but Yamato reads as having a personality disorder not being a gender fluid individual. She does things that Oden would do. Oden, as a man would bathe with other men so that is what she is going to do.

I don't think people need to be attacked for expressing opinions where Oda is to blame for not clarifying such a divisive character, unless they are being openly transphobic. I do not believe that Yamato believes in her heart she is a man. She believes in her heart she is Oden, who is a man. This is in no way a contrast to Kiku who outright states she a transperson.

I think anger for this needs to be pointed to Oda, who has been shamlessly transphobic in the past with things like the Tras Island Sanji landed on. It is clear Oda doesn't have the know how to subtley circumvent such delicate topics as gender fluidity

 

[Zmsp]

unless they are being openly transphobic.

This seems to be the problem. Different people will have different takes on what that means.

It's tremendously hard to navigate this sort of topic, but you have to risk being offensive in order to do so. I've still enjoyed reading about other people's experiences and circunstances, and while I can't say I've learned a great deal about this or that, it has made me aware that I need to update myself on some of the current lines of thought regarding this sort of topic. I'd consider that a positive.

 

[Franz]

 

[Pirate Queen]

It is sweet that Kaido call her his son. We need a flashback on this

 

[weixiaobao]

I desperately wish everyone that was well-meaning but not aware they're regurgitating transphobic stuff to look at the homophobia of yesteryear. "I just disagree with some concepts, nomenclatures, or sociological views" was the same exact shit enlightened wine centrists of the 80's said about gay folk 30+ years ago. It's about as insightful as saying "I'm not transphobic, because it's not a fear!" It's a surface-level examination of something that merits a bit more than that.

I am not particularly familiar. Are those intrinsically transphobic? Adjacently transphobic? Dog whistlingly transphobic? I think we should able to discuss most topics. But the way we go about it, we should self moderate. I hope this isn't the same as Hitler drink water. And you drink water. Conclusion, you are as bad as Hitler sort of thing.

Let's take Islamophobia for example. I felt the bigots and the allies, sometimes muddled the water. Phobia is fear. Is fear in its self bigot? Obama babysitter who is trans talking about seeing bodies of her friends floating down the water in Indonesia. To ISIS threw the gays out of a building. To laws on the book of many of these countries. If foreign LGBT+ visitors violate those laws that otherwise would be human right in the West, there will be consequences. Are those fear when you stepping in those countries, bigotted? The muddling of the water between ethnicity, culture, religion, and national laws are all over the place.

Like I have heard, well I can't be a racist. Muslims are not a race. But the targeting of brown people for thinking they are muslims. Heck, these Sikh temple that got shot up because the mass shooter thought these brown folks with funny headgears were muslims. So there was indeed a racial/ethnic component to it.

A discussion or even concern of integration of Muslim into the west can be islamphobic and can be not islamphobic. Depend on how you go about it. Similarly, a discussion of the complication of integration of trans athlete can be transphobic and can be non transphobic. Depend on how one go about it.

And if your fear is ceding ground to the bigots? Why then having them control the narrative? I see the OK sign in the last few years became a symbol of hate. And all the people in the left, policing their own. If they were bigot, they were proud even when they got caught. But often the innocent people who not aware of the trend, is the one that usually got crucified. What next, if the bigots use the Peace symbol, or use the rainbow flags. Are the left then ceded ground to those folks? By that I meant if the bigots had a problem with neo pronouns. Is that meant the rational people cannot have a discussion of neo pronouns? Especially the application of it social wide would require my own participation.

Interpretation can be very diverse. Sometimes, one can be so deep in their bias to not even realize there are other interpretation. I like Ivankov, especially since it based on Rocky Horror Show. I didn't care for the movie, but i like the references from Perks of Being a Wallflower. But to my younger sister, that character in the movie is transphobic playing on how lgbt gay villains troupe due to Catholic League censorship. Hence, she probably may not be too fond of Ivankov. And probably not too fond how Ivankov forcefully transition someone.

Yamato at the end of the day is a fictional character. But my trans spouse is not fictional. And I differentiated the two.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

@modoki How is the fandom in japan regarding this topic? You started this thread so i'm kinda curious.

 

[Zmsp]

It is sweet that Kaido call her his son. We need a flashback on this

Could I pm you with a question?

@Pirate Queen it's restricted, so I can't

 

[McNuss]

I think anger for this needs to be pointed to Oda, who has been shamlessly transphobic in the past with things like the Tras Island Sanji landed on. It is clear Oda doesn't have the know how to subtley circumvent such delicate topics as gender fluidity

This is a misconception.

If you go to the "special floor" in a German brothel, chances are higher you encounter people defining like the Okama of Kamabakka Kingdom then people defining like Kiku.

They call themselves "Transen" which is German for "Shemale" and might also sell cocaine and use a language that probably will cause the average American to suffer a heart attack. Kamabakka Kingdom is pretty tame compared to brothels lol.

They are nice and friendly people that have done nothing wrong.

On German television, pretty much the only voice of trans and queer people is Drag Queen Olivia Jones who pretty much looks like Ivankov.

Different cultures have different approaches to these things. Ever since this American narrative swapped over, I'd argue it has become worse and alot of hardcore transphobes can now openly voice themselves out hidden behind a confused society. Great Job!

I also don't think people have understood Sanji. He isn't transphobic, he has masculinity issues due to not fitting into the stereotypes his dad (Judge) tried to raise him into, which caused him to be bullied by his brothers. He reacted with sympathy towards Mr. 2, "I am a cuck and a Pirate".
He also said he wants to love all the ladies.

The people at Kamabakka aren't trans though and when Sanji got send there by Kuma it must have felt as if he was being made fun of. Yet in the end he complied to wearing a dress because he is also a sexist that puts woman on a pedestal, woman are better than man in any aspect in his mind, as such it is only natural that he is curious about what their clothes feel like. Because end of the day he and the Okama aren't that different, they have two souls as pointed out above

 

[Zmsp]

This is a misconception.

If you go to the "special floor" in a German brothel, chances are higher you encounter people defining like the Okama of Kamabakka Kingdom then people defining like Kiku.

They call themselves "Transen" which is German for "Shemale" and might also sell cocaine and use a language that probably will cause the average American to suffer a heart attack. Kamabakka Kingdom is pretty tame compared to brothels lol.

They are nice and friendly people that have done nothing wrong.

On German television, pretty much the only voice of trans and queer people is Drag Queen Olivia Jones who pretty much looks like Ivankov.

Different cultures have different approaches to these things. Ever since this American narrative swapped over, I'd argue it has become worse and alot of hardcore transphobes can now openly voice themselves out hidden behind a confused society. Great Job!

I also don't think people have understood Sanji. He isn't transphobic, he has masculinity issues due to not fitting into the stereotypes his dad (Judge) tried to raise him into, which caused him to be bullied by his brothers. He reacted with sympathy towards Mr. 2, "I am a cuck and a Pirate".
He also said he wants to love all the ladies.

The people at Kamabakka aren't trans though and when Sanji got send there by Kuma it must have felt as if he was being made fun of. Yet in the end he complied to wearing a dress because he is also a sexist that puts woman on a pedestal, woman are better than man in any aspect in his mind, as such it is only natural that he is curious about what their clothes feel like. Because end of the day he and the Okama aren't that different, they have two souls as pointed out above

This comment deserves an award.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

The thing is, the power level thread is generalized, and specific conversations are banned. That can't happen here, because the Yamato gender discourse is already a very specific question. What is the "Shanks vs Mihawk" of Yamato gender discourse?

Good point. This is a very specific thread. If it were something like "The Character Gender" thread maybe we could have some rules like that but in this case you're right. I guess the forum rules will have to be enough to keep things as civil as possible.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

On German television, pretty much the only voice of trans and queer people is Drag Queen Olivia Jones who pretty much looks like Ivankov.

Say what. Maybe on RTL and the privates. But we even got a guy in our government whos task is solely to accomodate to the lgb-whatever problems.

But was nice reading your brothelexperiences thou.

 

[Fox666]

What is the "Shanks vs Mihawk" of Yamato gender discourse?

"Is it transphobic to misgender a fictional character, who has been refered as both male and female on official sources?"

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 11, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 11, 2022 ---

Also the vivre cards say Yamato is female without extra connotations.

If the Vivre Card was to take in account Yamato's identity, it would be very confusing

It would have to call him Oden, and put on his stats that he's Human, 382cm, etc

 

[Uriel]

A note here: There are micro-aggressions that we ALL do and suffer, even when we don't notice.
When I'm calling out transphobic messages I'm not saying you actively hate trans person, I'm saying you're committing micro-aggressions. The aggression in this case is to force someone to identify as a Male/Female when their reality may be a bit more complex than that.

For Yamato, is clear that it-s being shown as a counterpart of Kiku.

PS: Vivre card were wrong before too.
PS2: Drag and Trans are very different experiences. Kamabakka island is closer in concept to DragQueens than trans persons.