People should really consider that many are not from USA or Europe. English isn't our first language and in our languagesgender and sex are the same thing and we were tought that in English it's the same (as it really was until "modern" adjustments).
This is how the other part of the World that isn't really concerned with the "identity" or "social construct" or the left wars sees things, you can call yourself whatever you would like, but asking people to call a fictional character that has all biological features of a woman as a man is just confusing, and insulting us is unreasonable.
Anyway, the problem here is what you say: insulting.
Anyone can have a reason why they perceive Yamato as a he, as a she or even as a they, that's up to them and I couldn't care less what anybody else chooses to do. Insulting others over the pronouns of said fictional character is where it gets toxic to me, no matter the stance.
There's not much relevance in politicizing this or using it as a conduit for more argumentation on the latest issue in the ongoing "culture war". But there is still way too many first-blush reactions akin to "stfu she's clearly female", and that is simply not a a position taken in good-faith when people want to discuss this sort of topic earnestly.
From my position the uncertainty of this character's gender is clearly intentional by Oda. I doubt anyone was calling Oda "woke" all those years ago with the Okamas being introduced, so why is it happening now?
I agree with the intentionality of the gender uncertainty, but isn't that the reason that this could never stay out of a "culture war" type of argument? It's inherently a sociological phenomena, so it's bound to be discussed as such. If people remain respectful within that frame, there'd be no problem.
Different people having different notions of what "respectful" means seems to be the struggle.
People should really consider that many are not from USA or Europe. English isn't our first language and in our languages gender and sex are the same thing and we were tought that in English it's the same (as it really was until "modern" adjustments).
This is how the other part of the World that isn't really concerned with the "identity" or "social construct" or the left wars sees things, you can call yourself whatever you would like, but asking people to call a fictional character that has all biological features of a woman as a man is just confusing, and insulting us is unreasonable.
So very brave of you to voice all of us not in the US or Europe
You clearly don't know any trans person to say that "the other part of the world" isn't really concerned with "identity" or "social construct". Or maybe I just misread you.
Wow did not expect this thread to be so active considering that there aren't any new developments on the topic. Oda is still ambiguous about Yamato's gender and people have already shared their views with the limited info we have.
Oddly enough this reminds me of the endless/cyclical convos in Power Level thread regarding topics like Hand to Hand vs Swordsmen, Mihawk's PL etc. Maybe we should take a similar tact on this topic?
Wow did not expect this thread to be so active considering that there aren't any new developments on the topic. Oda is still ambiguous about Yamato's gender and people have already shared their views with the limited info we have.
Oddly enough this reminds me of the endless/cyclical convos in Power Level thread regarding topics like Hand to Hand vs Swordsmen, Mihawk's PL etc. Maybe we should take a similar tact on this topic?
Well, not that you care, but I see that type of attitude as a substantial part of the problem when debating this type of stuff. If we're not in it to try to see other points of view, and elaborating on our own, what's the point?
By assuming that elaborating on your point would be to "educate" people, you're already taking the moral high ground, and that quickly derails arguments.
I genuinely don't see any offensive comments over the past few ones, but I do see different views on the matter: some that I agree with, and some that I don't.
Agreed. It's definitely great that this has been put into its own thread. I just think similar to how Power Level has its own thread, we should still have some boundaries/rules to avoid the repetitive/cyclical (veering into toxic in some cases) convo that's been going on, especially when there has been 0 development on the topic within the source material/manga.
So very brave of you to voice all of us not in the US or Europe
You clearly don't know any trans person to say that "the other part of the world" isn't really concerned with "identity" or "social construct". Or maybe I just misread
This is how the other part of the World that isn't really concerned with the "identity" or "social construct" or the left wars sees things, you can call yourself whatever you would like, but asking people to call a fictional character that has all biological features of a woman as a man is just confusing, and insulting us is unreasonable.
I agree with the first part of your post. The second part is interesting. People played around with languages. But at the end of the day, even if someone used "proper pronouns" to address someone despite let said they are a transphobe deep down. All what happening then is that the trans person is just deluding themselves thinking the other person by addressing by proper pronoun is accepting of their gender expression, whether that is true or not. So you can for your own happiness, skipped the demanding of others (since it is pretty hard to tell people what to do, and they will do what you say). And go straight to delude yourself with they (random stranger interaction) accepting of you. Unless of course, the other person accepting of you, then that is a non issue. Hell, even with language.
2 years ago, the culture battle was expanding the definition of what is a man, and what is a woman. And I am fine with that, expand the word woman to meant trans woman. That is fine, I guess. But by the same logic, you can expanding the word "he" to meant trans woman, or sir to meant a trans woman. So expanding the definition wasn't the issue, there is something else there. If it is a happiness issue, then it is the individual's mental state. They can jump in any mental loops that they want to make themselves feel fine. And I am totally okay with that. I am okay with people try to find happiness. And I advocate for mental gymnastic rather than trying to modify another person's behavior. Because you can control your action, it is much much harder to control someone else.
Even among trans people, the older trans folks adhere to the traditional gender role, and try to be as passing as much as possible. The newer wave, want to abolish the gender system altogether. So hence all these non binary, fluid, etc. So when Yamato didn't even attempt to be passing as a man whatsoever. The expectation is on people to have to just accept, and respect her because she said she is a man. For me, change is neither good or bad. Status quo is always preferred unless the people who want the change have to provide plenty of reasons and positives on why it is worth it for all the resources cost for the change. Even the whole abolishing of gender, is because people just want to express themselves without restriction. And to be honest, you can also do that right now. There are plenty of freedom, if you ignore the larger society in general. Just be whoever and whatever, and express yourselves in whatever form. Instead of freedom, I am starting to see people restricting themselves and put themselves into smaller and smaller box. The more labels that they put on themselves, the more restricting it is. Instead of labels, they should just be. But instead I see people restricted by cliques, and peer pressures just the same. I see trans parents on youtube raising their kids without a gender. And no shit, their kids grow up gender fluid (something that supposed to be a small fraction of the population). And the sad thing is, I thought the kids are free to pursuit hobbies and interest that wouldn't restrict them due to their sex or gender. Instead, their whole personality/identity seemed to be about being not having a gender. It like trying to free yourself in that realm, but then got imprisoned into that realm.
But I do wonder if you abolish gender. Men and Women ceased to exist. But that also meant Trans people also ceased to exist.
I've always considered this concept of "woke" pretty stupid. I believe that it stands for being somewhat alert to social injustice in general, at least by standard definition, and that's a subjective notion. It's not that the concept is fundamentally wrong, but some of the people that define themselves as such don't conduct themselves in a way that gives that notion any sort of credibility. This is obviously not exclusive to that concept in particular, but considering it's pretty popular, it annoys me a bit. I prefer the term common sense, and that one is hard enough to stay truthful to, from my personal experience.
Originally it meant being alert to social injustice, but then some people turned it into an ego thing, claiming to be more woke than others without actually caring about the issues, while some of the right started using the word like an insult to those who care about social issues. That snowballed into most of the right using the word incorrectly because they have no idea what it means.
Yamato's gender has nothing to do with "wokeness," it's just a stupid response from people who don't want actually think or are bigoted. As some pointed out, the issue isn't whether readers call Yamato a "she," but the way they say it/argue for it that's the issue.
Pretty sure I know exactly what the word means. Specially seeing the rest of your post.
There is a difference between being anti-something and attacking people, And the whole pronouns thing which I have no intention in diving into.
Please check me previous reply.
Actually I think calling people dumb because they don't share your views is bigoted and supposed to be against the rules. Which is why I asked in the first place if this forum is Woke, since this seems to be tolerated and Okay.
From what I've seen in the chapters discussions, it's those who call her "he" that are attacking others and get angry when we say "she" which is actually very woke like @Lobo Said
No, you don't. You keep proving that you have no idea what it means.
So it's bigoted to be against bigots? K then, that totally makes sense. In any case, if I did actually namecall you, my post would be deleted, even by those that share similar views as me.
Really? I haven't seen people calling Yamato a "he" attacking anyone calling them a "she," at least in the chapter discussion threads. Just here, and depending on what they say/their tone.
Of course, how could I forget: only the left can tell what a word means and if anyone else uses any other definition, be it the original meaning or a new one evolved from social use, they're dumb. Woke means whatever you decide it means, just like gender and bigot.
Gotcha, my bad.
Then should you care if I identify Yamato as female?
It's just not a clear-cut case with Yamato. I won't be correcting and calling people out who call them by female pronouns, but if you go out of your way to bash those who use "he" or "they", that's another story. The fact of the matter is, as long as they identify as Oden, they identify as a man (a specific man, but a man nonetheless) and we don't know what Yamato thinks of Yamato in terms of gender.
But even if they drop the Oden persona, I wouldn't think they'd easily just suddenly say they're a woman, because for most of their life they've acted and thought the opposite. But maybe that will be a thing, and a part of them becoming their own person and leaving Oden behind, and that will lead to hilarious misunderstandings and situations or sth..
Although, at this point I'm really not sure they ever will, they might stay Kozuki Oden forever.
I'd actually argue that hijacking words like this isn't really dumb. It's underhanded, but not dumb. It's a common political strategy. You take a word like "woke", or a term like "social justice (with the optional warrior added to the end)." Basically a group, or person creates a word with a positive meaning behind it, and their opponents (who fully well understand the meaning of it) take the word and start attributing largely exaggerated characteristics to the word in an attempt to undo their opponent at the deepest level - their very own description of themselves.
The other side of that is euphemisms. We get a word that is suppose to be an empathetic way to describe a bad condition (think "retarded" or something along those lines). Eventually the word gets used in crass ways causing the euphemism to now be a slur. Then we create another word to replace the original euphemism, and it gets used in crass ways to now be a slur (think mentally handicap).
Yamato clearly has a sense of self outside of "being Oden", saying others can call them Yamato, and still introduces themself as Kaido's son (not like they think Oden is Kaido's son)... whether that's a case of "I'm Yamato who is Kaido's child, and I'm Oden so I must be his son" or actually seeing themself as "Yamato, Kaido's son", people's opinions will differ.
Like Erin said, Oda is definitely being intentionally vague, especially in contrast to Kiku who is just clearly written as trans and no ifs and buts about it. (Doesn't stop people from intentionally being assholes about her gender as well though, unfortunately.)
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what he does with the character there, if he even does anything at all. Haven't seen anyone here be an asshole about Kiku's character though, thankfully.
Originally it meant being alert to social injustice, but then some people turned it into an ego thing, claiming to be more woke than others without actually caring about the issues, while some of the right started using the word like an insult to those who care about social issues. That snowballed into most of the right using the word incorrectly because they have no idea what it means.
Yamato's gender has nothing to do with "wokeness," it's just a stupid response from people who don't want actually think or are bigoted. As some pointed out, the issue isn't whether readers call Yamato a "she," but the way they say it/argue for it that's the issue.
No, you don't. You keep proving that you have no idea what it means.
So it's bigoted to be against bigots? K then, that totally makes sense. In any case, if I did actually namecall you, my post would be deleted, even by those that share similar views as me.
Really? I haven't seen people calling Yamato a "he" attacking anyone calling them a "she," at least in the chapter discussion threads. Just here, and depending on what they say/their tone.
Gender and bigot's definitions have not changed. The right have twisted "woke" into an insult against anyone who care about social issues.
It's boring having to repeat myself. I'm sure you can figure out the answer.
Exactly! If you call them a "she," cool, but using transphobic arguments aren't it.
Though, hasn't Oda made Yamato's gender ambiguous? But they did say they're Kaidou's son and whatnot, so maybe they do identify as a guy.
Not hijacking, but getting it wrong because they don't know what it means.
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what he does with the character there, if he even does anything at all. Haven't seen anyone here be an asshole about Kiku's character though, thankfully.
You know what? You keep proving I know exactly what the word means. But this is getting nowhere with you as expected. So I will just take @Lobo 'S route: "only you know what Any word means."
And saying outright that I use a word wrong then claiming those who do so are idiots is actually calling me an idiot. But who cares about facts and stuff?
And since you in particular with your condescending attitude are what I have a problem with and not the whole thread or people with different views than mine, I will ignore your account and continue following this nice thread with civilised discussions.
People should really consider that many are not from USA or Europe. English isn't our first language and in our languages gender and sex are the same thing and we were tought that in English it's the same (as it really was until "modern" adjustments).
This is how the other part of the World that isn't really concerned with the "identity" or "social construct" or the left wars sees things, you can call yourself whatever you would like, but asking people to call a fictional character that has all biological features of a woman as a man is just confusing, and insulting us is unreasonable.
Why do people have to consider that? People learn English as an adaptation, what is stopping further adaptation? Is it really language that's the issue at hand or is that just an excuse?
I'm not really sure what position or knowledge you would have to make such a blanket statement regarding what the rest of the world is or isn't concerned with.
I agree with the intentionality of the gender uncertainty, but isn't that the reason that this could never stay out of a "culture war" type of argument? It's inherently a sociological phenomena, so it's bound to be discussed as such. If people remain respectful within that frame, there'd be no problem.
Different people having different notions of what "respectful" means seems to be the struggle.
Sure, and people don't remain respectful. Plenty don't even respect the premise in the first place, and think expressing that is a worthwhile contribution when it isn't.
Why do people have to consider that? People learn English as an adaptation, what is stopping further adaptation? Is it really language that's the issue at hand or is that just an excuse?
Adapt to what, the new definitions? Can I quote Jordan Peterson here or will that break the forum rules? I'm Genuinely asking as I don't want to derail this discussion.
And I think the second part of my post answers your question.
As for the blanket statements. Please don't think just because your country or region is going through some culture war it is actually happening everywhere.
I think this is what many agreed upon here: call Yamato what you would like, but don't insult others for using different pronouns. So I don't think there is anymore I can add here.
Adapt to what, the new definitions? Can I quote Jordan Peterson here or will that break the forum rules? I'm Genuinely asking as I don't want to derail this discussion.
And I think the second part of my post answers your question.
As for the blanket statements. Please don't think just because your country or region is going through some culture war it is actually happening everywhere.
I think this is what many agreed upon here: call Yamato what you would like, but don't insult others for using different pronouns. So I don't think there is anymore I can add here.
Your initial question from early today (or was that yesterday already?) has indirectly been answered many times so you'll do better just dropping the thread. You should sadly have done it ages ago just from the hostile tone on plenty of the answers to your posts. lol
Let me slightly rephrase what has been said by at least a couple fellow users, using recent words: "if your views on gender dysphoria differ from ours, don't bother making non-worthwile contributions". Even though, I'll add, from my personal experience (which is surprisingly plenty) not even all transexuals themselves share similar views at all on what gender is or on how to address all these topics.
You and I don't even share the same views and tastes and here I am defending you. lol Anyway, I'm following my own advice. Peace out.
Adapt to what, the new definitions? Can I quote Jordan Peterson here or will that break the forum rules? I'm Genuinely asking as I don't want to derail this discussion.
And I think the second part of my post answers your question.
As for the blanket statements. Please don't think just because your country or region is going through some culture war it is actually happening everywhere.
I think this is what many agreed upon here: call Yamato what you would like, but don't insult others for using different pronouns. So I don't think there is anymore I can add here.
Adapt to an understanding of the topic of gender being discussed in a different language. You weren't talking about the "new definitions" of words, you were talking about how non-English languages may fail at conveying the same meaning. Again, this just reads like an excuse to object to content in a manga you read or whatever conclusions people may draw from it.
It being "confusing" is not an excuse though?
I don't care where you do or don't think it's happening, the concepts didn't pop up out of nowhere because Oda decided to put Yamato in the story. Where was this outrage 20 years ago for the Okama? Or did they only serve a comedic purpose so it was easy to ignore?
I didn't engage in this topic to give an excuse for name-calling, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up.
Well, not that you care, but I see that type of attitude as a substantial part of the problem when debating this type of stuff. If we're not in it to try to see other points of view, and elaborating on our own, what's the point?
By assuming that elaborating on your point would be to "educate" people, you're already taking the moral high ground, and that quickly derails arguments.
I genuinely don't see any offensive comments over the past few ones, but I do see different views on the matter: some that I agree with, and some that I don't.
The substantial part of the problem when debating gender identity is that people forget that trans people have a lifespan less than 35yo, not that I don't want to educate people. I elaborated my point in my very first post in this thread. Until Oda doesn't specify Yamato's gender, it's the one that they chose. So Kiku is a She and Yamato is an Oden (Which is male, in the very same sense as it refers to himself in Japanese). It could very well be that it's a She and it's not relevant, of course, but the discussion itself doesn't rise with other characters. Why is that? Why do people need to know the gender of a character? The debate itself is problematic because it's just a bunch of people deciding for someone else. You may think that a fictional character doesn't matter much but let me tell you about representation and how much it hurts to read people when you identify as a fictional character...
It may be a moral high ground, yes. I've 34yo and I just don't care for kids that just don't care about empathizing with others or reflecting on someone else experience.
Ask a gender-fluid person how they feel when debating their gender, go ahead. I'll wait.
It's somehow bigoted to oppose bigotry, which is weird but okay, whatever. Classic centrist/right wing talking point, especially when they're trying to victimize themselves. I still haven't seen "she" callers get jumped like claimed, but in this thread I do remember seeing transphobia. If Yamato and Oda refers to Yamato as a "he," there's no reason why we shouldn't. If Oda makes it ambiguous like he has, then yeah, either of the three pronouns work.
Until Oda doesn't specify Yamato's gender, it's the one that they chose. So Kiku is a She and Yamato is an Oden (Which is male, in the very same sense as it refers to himself in Japanese). It could very well be that it's a She and it's not relevant, of course, but the discussion itself doesn't rise with other characters. Why is that? Why do people need to know the gender of a character?
Wow did not expect this thread to be so active considering that there aren't any new developments on the topic. Oda is still ambiguous about Yamato's gender and people have already shared their views with the limited info we have.
We just had a chapter where Yamato was juxtaposed directly with Kiku with the men's/women's bath houses, of course this topic was going to blow up. I got out ahead of it and resurrected this thread specifically because of that and knowing THE DISCOURSE was going to start again. This is a perfectly fine quarantine maneuver, because otherwise it's going to just spill into every single chapter release thread the same way it did when Yamato was first introduced.
