Discussion Yamato’s Gender

[Nie Li]

Pretty sure you have no idea what "woke" means, because you're already using it incorrectly. Not being bigoted doesn't make one woke, contrary to what the right thinks.



In any case, topics like this can be concerning because if people are bitching about inclusivity or having to be inclusive, then that says a lot about them. There's literally nothing wrong with referring to Yamato as a he or they even if it's because they identify as Oden and aren't really transgender. It's actually embarrassing to see the anger over the concept of calling a woman "he" when they identify as a man.

Getting angry over calling Yamato a she is pretty woke.

 

[xi0]

Getting angry over calling Yamato a she is pretty woke.

Is following the terms the author uses also "woke"? Because that sort of issue has existed in manga/anime translation communities since the beginning and doesn't need to be limited to the gender topic.

 

[Nie Li]

Is following the terms the author uses also "woke"? Because that sort of issue has existed in manga/anime translation communities since the beginning and doesn't need to be limited to the gender topic.

Following when she calls herself Kaido's son or when the narrator called her Kaido's daughter?

Regardless, your question doesn't follow my statement: I never said using male pronouns for Yamato is woke, I said getting angry at those who don't is.

 

[xi0]

Following when she calls herself Kaido's son or when the narrator called her Kaido's daughter?

Regardless, your question doesn't follow my statement: I never said using male pronouns for Yamato is woke, I said getting angry at those who don't is.

Correct, it isn't really clear. There's of course more recent things than what was shown 2 years ago, but it's still up for debate.

Some people obviously aren't interested in using male (or gender neutral) pronouns in the first place though, and demonstrate that boldly. That is where that anger probably comes from. I don't really see an earnest reaction to something like that as "woke", but I digress.

 

[M3J]

Following when she calls herself Kaido's son or when the narrator called her Kaido's daughter?

Regardless, your question doesn't follow my statement: I never said using male pronouns for Yamato is woke, I said getting angry at those who don't is.

again, that is not what woke means. The right are dumb and don't do any research, hence why they hijacked that word and are using it incorrectly.

And I explained why - because it represents or can represent their actual thoughts. If they're arguing against others calling Yamato a male or them pronoun, then it likely means they're bigoted, as they shouldn't care or have an issue with what gender Yamato identifies as or how we identify them as.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

But as @Zmsp Mentioned this is a polarising topic. Same as religion, these are fundamental beliefs for many

Setting transgenderism equal with religion is in my atheist eyes extremly fitting. Thanks for that comparison, i will use it often from here on.

The forum isnt "woke" per se, but some people writer louder then others(and more often).

Whats even funnier for me personally: My GF is extremly antitrans(like really) and her newest fav char is... Yamato.

Riddle me that one.

PS: Whenever i see the word bigot i cant help but laugh. Thanks itsagundam.

 

[Zmsp]

And I explained why - because it represents or can represent their actual thoughts. If they're arguing against others calling Yamato a male or them pronoun, then it likely means they're bigoted, as they shouldn't care or have an issue with what gender Yamato identifies as or how we identify them as.

I've always considered this concept of "woke" pretty stupid. I believe that it stands for being somewhat alert to social injustice in general, at least by standard definition, and that's a subjective notion. It's not that the concept is fundamentally wrong, but some of the people that define themselves as such don't conduct themselves in a way that gives that notion any sort of credibility. This is obviously not exclusive to that concept in particular, but considering it's pretty popular, it annoys me a bit. I prefer the term common sense, and that one is hard enough to stay truthful to, from my personal experience.

Yamato being male or female won't lose me any sleep, so why fret?

There's no fret to be had, but it's a hot topic, so much so that it made its way into a popular shonen manga, so it'll be debated anyways. I'm more worried about how often the term "transphobic" is used, and how distorted it has become. I wanted to get a grasp on boundaries because those are not easy to define. What troubles me is that people who're not willing to concede on the scope of what gender means biologically are often called transphobic, and that's not true at all. There's no phobia to be had, but being compelled to use certain pronouns is the problem.

Since a few people shared personal views/experiences on the matter, I'd like to share my own experience.

I'm was a general surgery resident (currently trying to change fields of practice), and I've spent a few months in gynecology as part of my breast/pelvic surgery program, and took part in some gender affirmation surgeries (very very few, and they were all mastectomies), having followed those patients in consult both before and after the surgery (with the attending). I absolutely loved most of them. They were extremely compliant, well mannered and fun. I took great satisfaction in seeing them get progressively more confortable with themselves, and I've always called them by whatever pronoun they wanted me to call them, every step of the way, as long as it was he/she (I never got asked to call them anything other than these pronouns). I made a few hiccups along the way, but they came from an honest place, so I was never brought to attention by them. I'd be worse at my job if I didn't try to make a patient confortable with me, or went out of my way to make them unconfortable. This, however, comes from a very simple premise: not being a dick.

Having said that, if a transgender patient comes to the emergency room with a problem, I'd be bad at my job if I allowed the social dimension of the word gender get in the way of scientific accuracy. Epidemiologic factors, risk factors, metabolism/hormonal factors, all of these have to be taken into account in order to do the right diagnosis, and biology stands supreme. I can't look at it as if I'm treating a female, but rather a male with female traits (anatomical and hormonal). I'd never start calling them something other than what they had asked me to, but I can't comply with the notion that the biological and social dimensions are the same, and as long as no one tries to force me to aknowledge that, I'm cool with anything, really.

How does this translate to Yamato?
She never asked me anything, she's just a character, so as long as there's no animosity towards calling her a female, simply disliking the development, or undervaluing her role as some sort of representative of gender dysphoria, and thus a "wrong way of addressing her" not being in the cards, I'm cool with it. I'd also like to point out that people who clearly comment some stuff out of spite and mask it under being scientific, pragmatic or uncomplicated are assholes, and that's just that. They're not representative of any sort of defined "side" of this topic.

 

[Tengou]

Gotta love how the activist types keep co-opting fictional characters for their stupid crusades. What has poor Yamato done to deserve this?

This is not a body issue. She is not uncomfortable with her physicality. In fact, sex and gender seem to matter very little to Yamato at all.

She is someone who has suffered greatly at the hands of an abusive father, and when she was at her lowest she found comfort and inspiration in the way that Kozuki Oden lived his life. She wants liberation not from her female body but from her father's oppressive influence. She is not transgender.

 

[meeedoooz]

Pretty sure you have no idea what "woke" means, because you're already using it incorrectly. Not being bigoted doesn't make one woke, contrary to what the right thinks.



In any case, topics like this can be concerning because if people are bitching about inclusivity or having to be inclusive, then that says a lot about them. There's literally nothing wrong with referring to Yamato as a he or they even if it's because they identify as Oden and aren't really transgender. It's actually embarrassing to see the anger over the concept of calling a woman "he" when they identify as a man.

Pretty sure I know exactly what the word means. Specially seeing the rest of your post.

There is a difference between being anti-something and attacking people, And the whole pronouns thing which I have no intention in diving into.

Please check me previous reply.

This forum is actually SuperHyperOmega-Woke. We'll be instituting a new Woke-test in the coming weeks to insure only the Wokest individuals can join and participate in discussion.

So please get your anti-Woke takes in now.

Hasn't that started already?

again, that is not what woke means. The right are dumb and don't do any research, hence why they hijacked that word and are using it incorrectly.

Actually I think calling people dumb because they don't share your views is bigoted and supposed to be against the rules. Which is why I asked in the first place if this forum is Woke, since this seems to be tolerated and Okay.

From what I've seen in the chapters discussions, it's those who call her "he" that are attacking others and get angry when we say "she" which is actually very woke like @Lobo Said

 

[xi0]

Hasn't that started already?

You're still posting here, aren't you?

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 9, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 9, 2022 ---

There's not much relevance in politicizing this or using it as a conduit for more argumentation on the latest issue in the ongoing "culture war". But there is still way too many first-blush reactions akin to "stfu she's clearly female", and that is simply not a a position taken in good-faith when people want to discuss this sort of topic earnestly.

From my position the uncertainty of this character's gender is clearly intentional by Oda. I doubt anyone was calling Oda "woke" all those years ago with the Okamas being introduced, so why is it happening now?

 

[Uriel]

Still adding names to that ban-list.

About the woke stuff, xio is right, we will take exams. It's part of the gay agenda, which you can download at gay-agenda.com. Resistance is futile.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 9, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 9, 2022 ---

BTW, do we all agree that Kiku is trans, right?

 

[Nie Li]

again, that is not what woke means. The right are dumb and don't do any research, hence why they hijacked that word and are using it incorrectly.

And I explained why - because it represents or can represent their actual thoughts. If they're arguing against others calling Yamato a male or them pronoun, then it likely means they're bigoted, as they shouldn't care or have an issue with what gender Yamato identifies as or how we identify them as.

Of course, how could I forget: only the left can tell what a word means and if anyone else uses any other definition, be it the original meaning or a new one evolved from social use, they're dumb. Woke means whatever you decide it means, just like gender and bigot.

Gotcha, my bad.

it likely means they're bigoted, as they shouldn't care or have an issue with what gender Yamato identifies as or how we identify them as.

Then should you care if I identify Yamato as female? Are you bigoted for not respecting that?

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 9, 2022, Original Post Date: Jun 9, 2022 ---

BTW, do we all agree that Kiku is trans, right?

Yes.

I'd date Kiku if she wasn't like 3 meters tall.

 

[Uriel]

I'd date Kiku if she wasn't like 3 meters tall.

I'm tempted to open a thread on "Would you date X character?" in which people propose a character and deny the date justifying the reason.

 

[Nie Li]

I'm tempted to open a thread on "Would you date X character?" in which people propose a character and deny the date justifying the reason.

Sounds like a fun little forum game.

 

[Erinyes]

Oh I knew it after seeing the spoilers

I'm amazed how the world is regressing, Yamato's case is similar to Oscar François de Jarjailles from Versailles no Bara (1972), who is one of the characters that inspired Oda for Yamato. For 50 years, never people complained or started calling each other names if you use "she" or "he" to refer to Oscar, and suddenly in 2021/2022 internet is all on fire,. It's not like the manga/anime world isn't full of similar ambiguous characters ( Pitou in HxH is an example) I don't get why people are starting to flame each other, now.
it's clear that Oda is deliberately feeding the teasing with this chapter. And, her very name is based on to both Yamato Nadeshiko ( aka epitome of the perfect woman) and Yamato Takeru a historical imperial figure (male). But at the same time Yamato's epithet is Oni hime ( demon princess) and in the last databook, she's referred to as female. From the start, I always considered her a a woman identifying to Oden, so playing a role, impersonating Oden. Anyone is free to see her as they want to, but why does it have to go that far...

 

[weixiaobao]

Woke is the same as red pilled in its original usage. It is for the narcissistic people of all political spectrums and or even the edgy ones that don't align with any faction. People who said others are sheep, who buy into propaganda (by that they meant different opinions that they disagree with). That they are the only with the monopoly on truth, and the only ones that can see reality for what it is. For the left it is woke, being awake while everyone is in a fantasy. For the right, it is the red pill instead of a blue pill. Which is funny consider what the red pill meant for the trans directors of the Matrix.

Yamato is Oden-sexual. Yamato is a cosplayer. Yamato is a fan of Oden but deep down truly don't understand the essence of Oden. She can't never be Oden. Oden is his own man. Oden is not one to cosplay as someone else. Oden paved his own path. Oden will do the unorthodox route which not caring what others think of him. It was his introduction in the flash back at that funeral really portrayed his character. Oden is not just his "feats." It is what underneath. It is the rationale, reasons, motivations, desires for why he does those feats. Oden is larger than life, he doesn't want to be bound to just one corner of the world. He wants to see what the vast vast world had to offer. While Yamato wanting to travel, because Yamato want to be Oden. 2 very different desires.

Heck if society imposed everyone to be like Oden, I could see the real Oden want to be something different than Oden. If Yamato embrace the essence of Oden, she wouldn't be so focus on being a "man." Had Oden born a girl, she would focus more about exploring, adventure, doing something grand. And not focusing on "gender expression." Hell even the whole trans thing is really opposite of Oden. When a trans person dressed up a certain way or demand/request/respectfully request/or expect (due to appearance) certain pronouns. The interplay between that individual and the larger society is more than the body dysphoria, it is about social dysphoria. And wanting society to accept what their brain perceived as the right gender. But Oden wouldn't give a shit about what other people think. Oden would dress hell ever the hell he please if that what he desire. And seek no approval of anyone, nor expect approval of anyone. Hell, even if they misgender him. He probably either think nothing of it. Or laugh that they are stupid or something. He wouldn't be mad. And that is why Oden is also fictional and not real.

Yamato is immature. Hell the fact that Yamato called out to Momonosuke as his father is all sort of wrong. But that is fine. I like Yamato because she is flawed, deeply flawed.

 

[Organizized]

It's just not a clear-cut case with Yamato. I won't be correcting and calling people out who call them by female pronouns, but if you go out of your way to bash those who use "he" or "they", that's another story. The fact of the matter is, as long as they identify as Oden, they identify as a man (a specific man, but a man nonetheless) and we don't know what Yamato thinks of Yamato in terms of gender.

But even if they drop the Oden persona, I wouldn't think they'd easily just suddenly say they're a woman, because for most of their life they've acted and thought the opposite. But maybe that will be a thing, and a part of them becoming their own person and leaving Oden behind, and that will lead to hilarious misunderstandings and situations or sth..

Although, at this point I'm really not sure they ever will, they might stay Kozuki Oden forever.

 

[catagon87]

again, that is not what woke means. The right are dumb and don't do any research, hence why they hijacked that word and are using it incorrectly.

And I explained why - because it represents or can represent their actual thoughts. If they're arguing against others calling Yamato a male or them pronoun, then it likely means they're bigoted, as they shouldn't care or have an issue with what gender Yamato identifies as or how we identify them as.

I'd actually argue that hijacking words like this isn't really dumb. It's underhanded, but not dumb. It's a common political strategy. You take a word like "woke", or a term like "social justice (with the optional warrior added to the end)." Basically a group, or person creates a word with a positive meaning behind it, and their opponents (who fully well understand the meaning of it) take the word and start attributing largely exaggerated characteristics to the word in an attempt to undo their opponent at the deepest level - their very own description of themselves.

The other side of that is euphemisms. We get a word that is suppose to be an empathetic way to describe a bad condition (think "retarded" or something along those lines). Eventually the word gets used in crass ways causing the euphemism to now be a slur. Then we create another word to replace the original euphemism, and it gets used in crass ways to now be a slur (think mentally handicap).

 

[Organizized]

Yamato clearly has a sense of self outside of "being Oden", saying others can call them Yamato, and still introduces themself as Kaido's son (not like they think Oden is Kaido's son)... whether that's a case of "I'm Yamato who is Kaido's child, and I'm Oden so I must be his son" or actually seeing themself as "Yamato, Kaido's son", people's opinions will differ.

Like Erin said, Oda is definitely being intentionally vague, especially in contrast to Kiku who is just clearly written as trans and no ifs and buts about it. (Doesn't stop people from intentionally being assholes about her gender as well though, unfortunately.)

 

[meeedoooz]

People should really consider that many are not from USA or Europe. English isn't our first language and in our languages gender and sex are the same thing and we were tought that in English it's the same (as it really was until "modern" adjustments).

This is how the other part of the World that isn't really concerned with the "identity" or "social construct" or the left wars sees things, you can call yourself whatever you would like, but asking people to call a fictional character that has all biological features of a woman as a man is just confusing, and insulting us is unreasonable.