Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Rikudou King]

Just because a technique wasn't successful against one opponent doesn't mean that it's useless against another. The seal was meant to stop him free movement, and by every account, it did just that. The only reasonable explanation is that what happened was what happened.

This has nothing to do with successfulness. This has to do with said techniques not having the ability you claim. Neither seal stops movement. Heck, the Wooden Dragon was merely suppose to be draining him of chakra, and we know that wasn't going as plan.

Luck. It wasn't luck that allowed Hashirama to outlast him, and it wasn't luck that conceived his tactics to defeat Madara. And the Kages managed to survive it, so I don't see why there wouldn't be shinobi in Konoha capable of the same. I called them out because it was those techniques that brought the Kages to such a state in the first place, such techniques that allowed him to handle some of the techniques lobbed at him, including Oonoki's Jinton. Madara's Sharingan alone didn't defeat the Kages.

Pretty sure inheriting unique traits would be put down as luck, and that really doesn't change the point that said tactic only worked because of that specific situation. What? The Gokages didn't “survive” anything. Madara never used it against them. And if Konoha could “handle” the destructive force of a Bijuu, they wouldn't have been pissing themselves when the Kyuubi attacked. It was specifically his prefect Susanoo that caused the Gokages to worry and begin to lose hope. They had weathered the Mokuton and Rinnegan much better. And Madara already showed that he could handle two Jinton users without even having to go all out.

He thanks Naruto for defeating Obito because it saved him from having to do it himself, indicating that he thought that he would have to complete the task himself. He didn't expect them to be capable of defeating Obito. Your own link shows that Madara thought he was planning on stopping Obito. He didn't allow himself to be held, he was being held, but simply had a means through Zetsu to escape. There isn't a single reason for Madara to have allowed himself to be restrained. Putting a Rinnegan into a dead body is obviously an easy feat, have we seen a path without one? Obito managed to throw a few into six jins with apparently little effort, it would've undoubtedly been easier than this route if it was an option.

Potentially. How exactly could he not expect it when they made a huge showing of going after Obito? And as been shown, Madara had more to his plan then just himself. And I already pointed out a very good reason why he would want to avoid a direct confrontation with Obito: his ability that could permanently kill even an Edo summon. Just because it's regular doesn't mean it's an easy feat. It took Obito an entire night to place a single Rinnegan in each of his Paths. Why would Madara go through that effort when he already had a usable tool already made?

Did or did not the Kyuubi manage to get some freedom and attack? And why is it considered a different technique, because it's different. Kushina's were simply chains moulded with her special chakra, Madara utilises chains that are a Rinnegan technique of the Outer Path related to the Gedo Mazo. The techniques even have different names. They're simply similar in their form and appearance; that is they both utilise chains. Who are these multiple opponents who he utilised quite a bit of chakra against while attempting to seal the bijuu. He says it was all he could do at his level, and being better than Obito doesn't mean much. Obito took in bijuus that already had rods in them, and only six.

When Kushina was nearing death, as stated. You speak as if the Kyuubi could do as it wanted the entire time, as oppose to the Kyuubi being able to do nothing the majority of the time. It's interesting for you to say the techniques have different names when Kushina's technique doesn't even have an official name yet. And Madara using the Rinnegan to preform the technique doesn't make them a different technique. It's specifically because they had the Rinnegan that Madara and Obito could learn and copy it, since they now had the ability to use all natures. Who are they? Um, Gaara, the Ichibi, Naruto, and Kirabi. The former two he fought against while the latter two he was busy extracting, all the while holding the Bijuus. Which goes back to the point about him expecting to do better, not that it was somehow hard to accomplish. Him attributing any problem to himself and not any external influence shows those outside influences weren't a problem. Not better, faster, which is the point.

It is Enton. And you did mention the Sharingan previously, my comment was almost a repeat of a qualification you'd made about its use.

Enton that is automatically on Susanoo unlike the other versions and without Sasuke having to create the flames or use his other eye to manipulate them. And pretty sure I hadn't mentioned the Sharingan before that. Which post was it?

This is getting a lot like when you claimed that the Sound and Sand took on 15000 Konoha shinbobi during the invasion. If we don't see them, there isn't anything showing he fought them, and we have a rather thorough accounting of who he actually took on, why try to make up numbers?

Except in this case, we have seen them. The through accounting is that he took on Gaara's division, not merely some random group of ninjas.

But, he failed, which was my point. Doing something with his own Rinnegan? By that you mean they show his face and since the Rinnegan are pretty glaring on his face they stuck out. I don't dispute that he has some connection with Black Zetsu, I dispute that he was the primary in the execution of that technique. I don't know how one comes to that conclusion when Zetsu had the eyes, the body of Obito, and the handseals. And how many times did this happen, and how many of these tech compare to Hashirama's? The whole argument, at least this component, which in itself is far removed from my original comment, is whether or not Madara was capable of breaking out on his own without aid. He was having a conversation, shinobi in this manga have that awful habit. Even if Madara had a hand in the resurrection, he didn't do it alone. That has been my argument from the start; that without Zetsu, and even with Zetsu there was a significant chance that, Madara would've been screwed.

Because Obito could fight back, which ties back into my previous point about it being easier with an Obito who couldn't fight back. You're forgetting the speed-lines and the words being within both panels. If it was merely Black Zetsu, then there would be no reason to show Madara or put in the effects that were there. They happen several times, and were at least equal to the techniques that Hashirama used. And as far as the manga has shown, Madara had the means to not merely escape, but not be caught at all. Revealing one's plan is not merely having a conversation, it's messing around. Madara was the one who initialed the story-telling. Given the mechanics of the resurrection, it would never have been alone. Regardless, the point remains that there would have been no “without Zetsu” because Black Zetsu was there the entire time, on Madara's orders, and now we have seen that Swirl Zetsu could have been used to help too. There isn't any reason, aside from Madara playing it, that Madara would have been in any danger.

 

[Impossibility]

This has nothing to do with successfulness. This has to do with said techniques not having the ability you claim. Neither seal stops movement. Heck, the Wooden Dragon was merely suppose to be draining him of chakra, and we know that wasn't going as plan.

It does have that ability. We've seen it against the Juubi and Madara. I'm assuming Hashirama knows what the intent of his own ability is better than you do.

Pretty sure inheriting unique traits would be put down as luck, and that really doesn't change the point that said tactic only worked because of that specific situation. What? The Gokages didn't “survive” anything. Madara never used it against them. And if Konoha could “handle” the destructive force of a Bijuu, they wouldn't have been pissing themselves when the Kyuubi attacked. It was specifically his prefect Susanoo that caused the Gokages to worry and begin to lose hope. They had weathered the Mokuton and Rinnegan much better. And Madara already showed that he could handle two Jinton users without even having to go all out.

So, everything Madara has done is luck. Pretty much everything in the manga comes down to luck then. That line of argument is just asinine. Yes, that tactic worked in that situation, which is why Hashirama utilised it. So the Gokages are dead? And your link shows otherwise, are you just trying to be daft? But, they handled it. In fact, Konoha has handled two bijuu attacks. The primary concern of both of those was the potential loss of civilian life, not the complete annihilation of Konoha. And he used it after he had brought the Kages to the brink using Mokuton and Rinnegan, and the immortality of Edo Tensei. They had weathered those better because they were in better shape, by the time he whipped out his Perfect Susanoo the Kages were on their last legs. Yes, and two jinton users aren't what we're talking about.

Potentially. How exactly could he not expect it when they made a huge showing of going after Obito? And as been shown, Madara had more to his plan then just himself. And I already pointed out a very good reason why he would want to avoid a direct confrontation with Obito: his ability that could permanently kill even an Edo summon. Just because it's regular doesn't mean it's an easy feat. It took Obito an entire night to place a single Rinnegan in each of his Paths. Why would Madara go through that effort when he already had a usable tool already made?

It's there, he says it. He expected them to go after Obito, he didn't expect them to win. He might want to avoid it, but that doesn't change the fact that he thought he was going to have to face him. The logical thing would've been to secure the means to face off against him, Hashirama's senjutsu, as soon as possible. We don't know how long it took Obito to get the Rinnegan into his Paths. It would surely be easier to get a Path than taking on Obito or the entire Allied Forces, that's why.

When Kushina was nearing death, as stated. You speak as if the Kyuubi could do as it wanted the entire time, as oppose to the Kyuubi being able to do nothing the majority of the time. It's interesting for you to say the techniques have different names when Kushina's technique doesn't even have an official name yet. And Madara using the Rinnegan to preform the technique doesn't make them a different technique. It's specifically because they had the Rinnegan that Madara and Obito could learn and copy it, since they now had the ability to use all natures. Who are they? Um, Gaara, the Ichibi, Naruto, and Kirabi. The former two he fought against while the latter two he was busy extracting, all the while holding the Bijuus. Which goes back to the point about him expecting to do better, not that it was somehow hard to accomplish. Him attributing any problem to himself and not any external influence shows those outside influences weren't a problem. Not better, faster, which is the point.

Once again, not disputing that. And never said that, I have explicitly stated more than once that it was a sudden loss of focus that allowed the Kyuubi its freedom. Who says anything about their chains being a copy of Kushina's, it's explicitly been stated to be linked to the Outer Path and the Gedo Mazo, it's name refers to it. I can't imagine that Kushina's technique has anything to do with the Gedo Mazo. He didn't fight the Ichibi, he fought Gaara, and to be honest, that wasn't much of a fight, Gaara never attacked him, he was just trying to hold onto the chains. So he attacked one opponent with a lower form of Susanoo, that's it. No one attacked him, there weren't any external influences to speak much about. Faster is better in this context.

Enton that is automatically on Susanoo unlike the other versions and without Sasuke having to create the flames or use his other eye to manipulate them. And pretty sure I hadn't mentioned the Sharingan before that. Which post was it?

It's Enton. Enton isn't an ability granted by Susanoo. The Sharingan came into it when you said something about him having to activate Susanoo to use it.

Except in this case, we have seen them. The through accounting is that he took on Gaara's division, not merely some random group of ninjas.

We haven't seen them fighting. We saw them earlier before the war commenced.

Because Obito could fight back, which ties back into my previous point about it being easier with an Obito who couldn't fight back. You're forgetting the speed-lines and the words being within both panels. If it was merely Black Zetsu, then there would be no reason to show Madara or put in the effects that were there. They happen several times, and were at least equal to the techniques that Hashirama used. And as far as the manga has shown, Madara had the means to not merely escape, but not be caught at all. Revealing one's plan is not merely having a conversation, it's messing around. Madara was the one who initialed the story-telling. Given the mechanics of the resurrection, it would never have been alone. Regardless, the point remains that there would have been no “without Zetsu” because Black Zetsu was there the entire time, on Madara's orders, and now we have seen that Swirl Zetsu could have been used to help too. There isn't any reason, aside from Madara playing it, that Madara would have been in any danger.

I was just pointing out that it didn't go as planned before. Speed lines, I always assumed those lines there were for dramatic effect and to simply show that something was happening. I've already said that I don't dispute some connection between the two, I dispute the claim that Madara was directing or activating the Rinne Tensei, or took the lead in the execution of that technique. Madara was primarily shown as a beneficiary of the technique. Several times? And how is it that you've come to the conclusion that they're comparable to Hashirama's, which was used against the Juubi itself. And yet Madara was caught. It wouldn't be the first time a villain's done it. By every measure Zetsu should've been able to utilise the Rinne Tensei without Madara. But that isn't what's being debated. I didn't dispute that Madara was capable of getting out of the situation, I disputed that he would've been able to get out on his own. That's what this has always been about. This extended from a discussion about Madara's own capabilities.

 

[Rikudou King]

It does have that ability. We've seen it against the Juubi and Madara. I'm assuming Hashirama knows what the intent of his own ability is better than you do.

Both the Juubi and I'm presuming you meant Obito, were still capable of moving and fighting against it, with Obito successfully breaking free using chakra.

So, everything Madara has done is luck. Pretty much everything in the manga comes down to luck then. That line of argument is just asinine. Yes, that tactic worked in that situation, which is why Hashirama utilised it. So the Gokages are dead? And your link shows otherwise, are you just trying to be daft? But, they handled it. In fact, Konoha has handled two bijuu attacks. The primary concern of both of those was the potential loss of civilian life, not the complete annihilation of Konoha. And he used it after he had brought the Kages to the brink using Mokuton and Rinnegan, and the immortality of Edo Tensei. They had weathered those better because they were in better shape, by the time he whipped out his Perfect Susanoo the Kages were on their last legs. Yes, and two jinton users aren't what we're talking about.

Hardly, that wasn't what I said in the slightest. But specific cases such as having more powerful chakra then any other Uchiha (unique to him and Sasuke) and being able to awaken the Sharingan (something stated only a select number of Uchiha's were capable) do get attributed to luck. It's been that way for a long time, being the key claim towards Naruto and Sasuke's overpowerness. Ad the point was that in any other situation, that tactic wouldn't have worked. What? Madara was clearly shown swinging it outward from his side, thus the reason the force went from his side all the way to the mountains on his right. If he had swung towards the Gokages, then the force would have gone out in front of him, where the Gokages had been positioned. Konoha hasn't handled two Bijuu attacks. The one attack that they did handle, it was solely thanks to their Hokage Minato teleporting blasts away before they could do any harm. That goes right back to my point about Tobirama being the only real challenge. And where do you see it stated that the main concern was the loss of civilian life? The Gokages weren't on their last leg, they had strengthen their resolved and proceed to get around those problems before Madara pulled out his prefect Susanoo and made them completely falter. You called out Onoki's Jinton as if it was only something he could have handled with Mokuton and the Rinnegan, but that's clearly not true because he was already able to defeat two Jinton users well before he had gained either Mokuton or the Rinnegan.

It's there, he says it. He expected them to go after Obito, he didn't expect them to win. He might want to avoid it, but that doesn't change the fact that he thought he was going to have to face him. The logical thing would've been to secure the means to face off against him, Hashirama's senjutsu, as soon as possible. We don't know how long it took Obito to get the Rinnegan into his Paths. It would surely be easier to get a Path than taking on Obito or the entire Allied Forces, that's why.

It's potentially because we're told right after that it was the very thing, taking him over, that Black Zetsu existed for. And if he didn't expect them to win, why would he keep pieces hidden from play, one of which was specifically made to use on Obito? And if Hashirama's Senjutsu was simply to face off against Obito, then why would Madara take it even after Obito had been defeated, after he had return alive? The logical idea would suggest that it wasn't merely to fight Obito, especially with Black Zetsu's involvement, but meant for a greater goal. It took about a night, he implied he had been at it the whole night. How would that be easier? Obito is an idiot, even with all his powers, and the Alliance hasn't proven a hinder to Madara at all.

Once again, not disputing that. And never said that, I have explicitly stated more than once that it was a sudden loss of focus that allowed the Kyuubi its freedom. Who says anything about their chains being a copy of Kushina's, it's explicitly been stated to be linked to the Outer Path and the Gedo Mazo, it's name refers to it. I can't imagine that Kushina's technique has anything to do with the Gedo Mazo. He didn't fight the Ichibi, he fought Gaara, and to be honest, that wasn't much of a fight, Gaara never attacked him, he was just trying to hold onto the chains. So he attacked one opponent with a lower form of Susanoo, that's it. No one attacked him, there weren't any external influences to speak much about. Faster is better in this context.

You have brought up several times the fact that it was Kushina's unique and exceptional ability, as if losing control while nearly dead and out of chakra somehow negates that. It's far more likely to imagine them being the same technique then imaging them being two completely separate techniques that somehow have the exact same ability and are used in the exact same way. Gaara and the Ichibi both fought together. He was still doing several things at once, all the while holding onto the Bijuu. And him using Susanoo goes back to my original point about him being able to defend himself with it if he had been attacked. Faster is faster in this context, tying back to his earlier comment to Zetsu about doing it quickly.

It's Enton. Enton isn't an ability granted by Susanoo. The Sharingan came into it when you said something about him having to activate Susanoo to use it.

Enton as a orb and arrow/sword is specifically granted by his completely Susanoo, it's the only time the two are employed. I never said anything like that. I had previously pointed out how he had specifically activated Susanoo even when his Rinnegan was already active as proof that it wasn't merely a Rinnegan technique.

We haven't seen them fighting. We saw them earlier before the war commenced.

We did see them fighting, we saw them from right before they began fighting straight on through the fight with Madara.

I was just pointing out that it didn't go as planned before. Speed lines, I always assumed those lines there were for dramatic effect and to simply show that something was happening. I've already said that I don't dispute some connection between the two, I dispute the claim that Madara was directing or activating the Rinne Tensei, or took the lead in the execution of that technique. Madara was primarily shown as a beneficiary of the technique. Several times? And how is it that you've come to the conclusion that they're comparable to Hashirama's, which was used against the Juubi itself. And yet Madara was caught. It wouldn't be the first time a villain's done it. By every measure Zetsu should've been able to utilise the Rinne Tensei without Madara. But that isn't what's being debated. I didn't dispute that Madara was capable of getting out of the situation, I disputed that he would've been able to get out on his own. That's what this has always been about. This extended from a discussion about Madara's own capabilities.

It was pretty much a non-issue for Madara, one that he clearly could have changed if he had actually wanted to (what with having Black Zetsu already there to double-up like what is done later on). Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying, the implication was that something was happening. Why depute it when Madara was showed doing that exact thing earlier? It isn't like there nothing to base such a theory on. If it was simply to show him as the beneficiary, then there would have been no need to show him at that point, before he had actually benefited from the technique, or show him in front of the one actually doing the technique while having speedlines and the techniques name sharing both panels. Yeah, Madara has countered sealing techniques several times, I even pointed out a few of those times. Because it's not a seal specifically for the Juubi, just things of that level, and Madara is of that level. Because he allowed it, thus the reason he didn't make an attempt to fight against it but simply sat there smiling and thinking. It would be the first time a Naruto villain done so inside of combat. The only other situation that could be compared is Nagato talking about the cycle of hatred, but even that happen after he had apparently won. There are plenty of reasons why Black Zetsu couldn't have done so on his own. And that has been shown quite likely, with a single handsign taking Hashirama completely out of the fight.

 

[Impossibility]

Both the Juubi and I'm presuming you meant Obito, were still capable of moving and fighting against it, with Obito successfully breaking free using chakra.

No, I meant the Juubi. Hashirama utilised Myojinmon against the Juubi. And what you're arguing is something else entirely. You're pointing out that individuals broke out of the technique, and I'm pointing out that that doesn't change the mechanics or the intent of the technique, and that those individuals weren't Madara.

Hardly, that wasn't what I said in the slightest. But specific cases such as having more powerful chakra then any other Uchiha (unique to him and Sasuke) and being able to awaken the Sharingan (something stated only a select number of Uchiha's were capable) do get attributed to luck. It's been that way for a long time, being the key claim towards Naruto and Sasuke's overpowerness. Ad the point was that in any other situation, that tactic wouldn't have worked. What? Madara was clearly shown swinging it outward from his side, thus the reason the force went from his side all the way to the mountains on his right. If he had swung towards the Gokages, then the force would have gone out in front of him, where the Gokages had been positioned. Konoha hasn't handled two Bijuu attacks. The one attack that they did handle, it was solely thanks to their Hokage Minato teleporting blasts away before they could do any harm. That goes right back to my point about Tobirama being the only real challenge. And where do you see it stated that the main concern was the loss of civilian life? The Gokages weren't on their last leg, they had strengthen their resolved and proceed to get around those problems before Madara pulled out his prefect Susanoo and made them completely falter. You called out Onoki's Jinton as if it was only something he could have handled with Mokuton and the Rinnegan, but that's clearly not true because he was already able to defeat two Jinton users well before he had gained either Mokuton or the Rinnegan.

You attempted to frame Hashirama's victory as a result of luck when it was the result of his abilities, if his abilities are just luck, then Madara's are too. Hashirama defeated Madara, it's that simple. You pointed to the Perfect Susanoo as the means of the Gokage's defeat, specifically as a function of his Sharingan, the Gokages survived it. Minato was the Hokage, a member of Konoha, if he handled it, Konoha handled it. And to clarify, I wasn't talking about bijuudamas, I was talking about attacks; the Kyuubi's attack on Konoha and the Ichibi's through Gaara. Konoha aren't facing a bijuu, so this doesn't quite compute. But, I'd wager that Tobirama wouldn't be the only one, it's simply that he's the only one we've seen in action from that time period. Although, I'd point to Sarutobi again, possibly Mito, and I doubt the Senju would be useless, and the many other clans. Does strengthening one's resolve somehow heal one's wounds and restore one's chakra? They were in far less than peak condition. Yes, he defeated two jinton users, so he was able to handle their attacks in the past without Mokuton or Rinnegan, but that doesn't mean he'd be able to handle the attacks under different conditions facing different opponents or their attacks are useless against him. That would be like saying because Kakashi defeated Zabuza, Zabuza's suiton attacks pose no threat.

It's potentially because we're told right after that it was the very thing, taking him over, that Black Zetsu existed for. And if he didn't expect them to win, why would he keep pieces hidden from play, one of which was specifically made to use on Obito? And if Hashirama's Senjutsu was simply to face off against Obito, then why would Madara take it even after Obito had been defeated, after he had return alive? The logical idea would suggest that it wasn't merely to fight Obito, especially with Black Zetsu's involvement, but meant for a greater goal. It took about a night, he implied he had been at it the whole night. How would that be easier? Obito is an idiot, even with all his powers, and the Alliance hasn't proven a hinder to Madara at all.

Yes, but Madara was still going to have to weaken him before Black Zetsu could complete his task. Madara didn't say kill him, he said weaken him. I'm not even sure what your question is supposed to be getting at? What piece are you referring to? Although, I'm just going to take a shot in the dark and say that he kept his pieces hidden from Obito so Obito wouldn't get rid of them. And he probably took Hashirama's senjustu chakra because it was readily available and offered him a significant increase in his reserves. Why not take a massive amount of chakra that's just for the taking, particularly when he has to face an army and take on and seal nine bijuu? The only thing he says that a long night has ended and they should be accustomed to their eyes. During that time he had to implant rods, reseal the bijuu into their respective jins, implant Sharingan, and implant Rinnegan. Yes, I'd wager that a task without any risk to himself would be simpler than getting mixed up with an army and the Juubi.

You have brought up several times the fact that it was Kushina's unique and exceptional ability, as if losing control while nearly dead and out of chakra somehow negates that. It's far more likely to imagine them being the same technique then imaging them being two completely separate techniques that somehow have the exact same ability and are used in the exact same way. Gaara and the Ichibi both fought together. He was still doing several things at once, all the while holding onto the Bijuu. And him using Susanoo goes back to my original point about him being able to defend himself with it if he had been attacked. Faster is faster in this context, tying back to his earlier comment to Zetsu about doing it quickly.

No, I'm just saying that someone who was exceptional handled one, which is a far cry from handling nine. It's easy to imagine because of their appearance, but we know that the techniques are different. Is that what you meant when you said that Shukaku fought? He raised a hand to stop Gaara from being skewered, that's it. That must have made things pretty difficult for Madara. What are these several things? He whipped out a lesser version of Suanoo and threw some blades. And the debate was never about something like a simple Susanoo, if that was what I was arguing from the beginning I wouldn't have focused on the Kages and those of comparable levels. The fact that you were arguing that he wouldn't have trouble whipping out a Perfect Susanoo over the Gedo and make a bunch of mokuton clones makes it clear that we were far beyond that point. Not once did I argue that Madara wasn't going to be able to defend himself, my claim from the very beginning was that if he had to extend significant resources against top-notch opponents, it would reduce his efficiency at sealing the bijuu, and cost him focus on either that task or limit his focus on his own defence with possible risks to himself. That's been my claim from the beginning and was my initial comment that you decided to respond to.

Enton as a orb and arrow/sword is specifically granted by his completely Susanoo, it's the only time the two are employed. I never said anything like that. I had previously pointed out how he had specifically activated Susanoo even when his Rinnegan was already active as proof that it wasn't merely a Rinnegan technique.

So Sasuke can't make a sword with Enton without a complete Susanoo? If he can, it's not a new ability. The orb and the weapons are simply parts of Susanoo coated with Enton. That would be proof that he activated Susanoo, not that it was a new ability gained through an advancement of Susanoo or that it was even an ability of Susanoo. And I thought it wasn't a Rinnegan technique by your reasoning, now it's not 'merely a Rinnegan technique'.

We did see them fighting, we saw them from right before they began fighting straight on through the fight with Madara.

We saw hundreds at that point against Madara, not the thousands upon thousands you claimed he fought.

It was pretty much a non-issue for Madara, one that he clearly could have changed if he had actually wanted to (what with having Black Zetsu already there to double-up like what is done later on). Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying, the implication was that something was happening. Why depute it when Madara was showed doing that exact thing earlier? It isn't like there nothing to base such a theory on. If it was simply to show him as the beneficiary, then there would have been no need to show him at that point, before he had actually benefited from the technique, or show him in front of the one actually doing the technique while having speedlines and the techniques name sharing both panels. Yeah, Madara has countered sealing techniques several times, I even pointed out a few of those times. Because it's not a seal specifically for the Juubi, just things of that level, and Madara is of that level. Because he allowed it, thus the reason he didn't make an attempt to fight against it but simply sat there smiling and thinking. It would be the first time a Naruto villain done so inside of combat. The only other situation that could be compared is Nagato talking about the cycle of hatred, but even that happen after he had apparently won. There are plenty of reasons why Black Zetsu couldn't have done so on his own. And that has been shown quite likely, with a single handsign taking Hashirama completely out of the fight.

And yet he didn't do it. Maybe he was just unprepared. Something was happening is not activating a technique. Madara showed the execution of Rinne Tensei, please show me. Zetsu had speedlines too, he also handseals, and the Rinnegan, and you're still at Madara activating the technique. You pointed out the several times Madara had broken out of high-level seals prior to this, I was unaware of the 'few' times you'd shown. I didn't address what it was meant for, you claimed that the techniques used previously were at the same level as Hashirama's, and I'm struggling to see how you came to that conclusion. It would seem obvious that Hashirama's was stronger, at least to me, but you see otherwise, and I'm just curious why. Madara was at the level of the Juubi, is that what you honestly believe? If that's the case, that would explain a lot. He was relying on Zetsu, that's why he was smiling, he trusted that he would revive him. And Gaara, Kabuto, Sasori, Oro, Kakuzu? Naruto villains pretty much always have something to say, rather than doing what they're supposed to be doing. What are the reasons Black Zetsu wouldn't have been able to do it on his own, he had the tools available. And that happened after Rinne Tensei was activated through Zetsu.

 

[hawaplop]

It's a good thing Obito had all those stored sharingan eyes. They really helped him a lot.
Remember thinking how all of those eyes were going to incorporate into some master plan, and then nothing...never even mentioned again.
I think it's enough proof the story took a complete different direction around the Kage Summit chapters after Nagato died.
The storyline went all haywire after this and almost became a completely different story with new goals and rules.
Wtf was the pointbof helping Sasuke to the point of EMS and showing him with all those stored eyes....makes no sense and never will bc the story has nothing to do with what it used to before Nagato died.

 

[Rikudou King]

No, I meant the Juubi. Hashirama utilised Myojinmon against the Juubi. And what you're arguing is something else entirely. You're pointing out that individuals broke out of the technique, and I'm pointing out that that doesn't change the mechanics or the intent of the technique, and that those individuals weren't Madara.

But it was also used against Obito, which is what I though you were also referring to in addition to the Juubi. I'm arguing against the claim that the technique prevents the target from making any kind of movement or escape attempt. Not once were either of them shown such a mechanic or intent.

You attempted to frame Hashirama's victory as a result of luck when it was the result of his abilities, if his abilities are just luck, then Madara's are too. Hashirama defeated Madara, it's that simple. You pointed to the Perfect Susanoo as the means of the Gokage's defeat, specifically as a function of his Sharingan, the Gokages survived it. Minato was the Hokage, a member of Konoha, if he handled it, Konoha handled it. And to clarify, I wasn't talking about bijuudamas, I was talking about attacks; the Kyuubi's attack on Konoha and the Ichibi's through Gaara. Konoha aren't facing a bijuu, so this doesn't quite compute. But, I'd wager that Tobirama wouldn't be the only one, it's simply that he's the only one we've seen in action from that time period. Although, I'd point to Sarutobi again, possibly Mito, and I doubt the Senju would be useless, and the many other clans. Does strengthening one's resolve somehow heal one's wounds and restore one's chakra? They were in far less than peak condition. Yes, he defeated two jinton users, so he was able to handle their attacks in the past without Mokuton or Rinnegan, but that doesn't mean he'd be able to handle the attacks under different conditions facing different opponents or their attacks are useless against him. That would be like saying because Kakashi defeated Zabuza, Zabuza's suiton attacks pose no threat.

It was luck, since as mentioned, Madara had the means to normally see right through such a tactic, and without any kind of indication that Hashirama purposely dragged out the fight for such a purpose, it falls to luck. And I don't know what you are talking about. I have said numerous times that Madara's (and Obito's) current actions are all thanks to luck and the fact that everyone was not acting in a logical way. Logically, events should never even have gotten as far as they have, because there isn't any reason for anyone to act the way they have been outside of author's fiat.

No, I pointed to the Prefect Susanoo and the damage it was capable of, along with the fact that it crushed the hope of the Gokages upon seeing it. I said nothing about them being "defeated" by it anywhere, and they survived it because they never actually fought against it. Minato is a specific "top-tier" ninja of Konoha, and this discussion was about what specific top-tier ninjas would have been capable of opposing Madara were he to attack Konoha. You made the claim that Madara would be overwhelmed by such individuals, but the fact remains that time and again we have been shown there are only a select few such individuals within the village. And Konoha never had to deal with the Ichibi. Madara's prefect Susanoo was stated to have the power comparable to a Bijuu, so it does compute. Tobirama is the only other ninja shown even near the tier of Hashirama and Madara. Sarutobi or his group haven't shown anything that could handle such power, nor has Mito given the specific situation we're talking about. Strengthing one's resolve does allow one to keep going and using chakra past their limit. Not in peak condition =/= unable to fight. No, what it would be like saying is that if Kakashi could handle Zabuza's suiton while holding back, he's not gonna have any problem doing the same when not holding back. If Madara could fight and defeat two jinton users without his prefect Susanoo, the one ability that could possible give him trouble regardless of defense, why would he have any issue with it? Apart from Hashirama and maybe a senjutsu enhanced Bijuu Blast from Naruto and Minato, the Alliance had nothing else that could possible have gotten through that defense.

Yes, but Madara was still going to have to weaken him before Black Zetsu could complete his task. Madara didn't say kill him, he said weaken him. I'm not even sure what your question is supposed to be getting at? What piece are you referring to? Although, I'm just going to take a shot in the dark and say that he kept his pieces hidden from Obito so Obito wouldn't get rid of them. And he probably took Hashirama's senjustu chakra because it was readily available and offered him a significant increase in his reserves. Why not take a massive amount of chakra that's just for the taking, particularly when he has to face an army and take on and seal nine bijuu? The only thing he says that a long night has ended and they should be accustomed to their eyes. During that time he had to implant rods, reseal the bijuu into their respective jins, implant Sharingan, and implant Rinnegan. Yes, I'd wager that a task without any risk to himself would be simpler than getting mixed up with an army and the Juubi.

Or he would have enhanced Black Zetsu with it to do so without such a conflict. Again, no definitive answer makes it only a potential path. The pieces are the Zetsus, one of which is now being used to deal with the Alliance. There wouldn't have been any reason to worry about Obito getting rid of them at that point, since not only did Obito not know of their real purpose, but he would have had no reason to suspect anything from them before Madara actually made his move against him. But it wasn't a massive "amount" considering, and if that was the case, couldn't that have been the reason he was after it in the first place? Implanting the rods would be tied to the eyes and creation of the Paths, and the Bijuus weren't resealed in anything. They remained in the Gedo Mazo. Also quite sure there aren't any actual Sharingan and Rinnegan being implanted. Except it wouldn't be easier, because he would still have had to eventually deal with Obito. Again, the Alliance hasn't been the slightest hinder to him.

No, I'm just saying that someone who was exceptional handled one, which is a far cry from handling nine. It's easy to imagine because of their appearance, but we know that the techniques are different. Is that what you meant when you said that Shukaku fought? He raised a hand to stop Gaara from being skewered, that's it. That must have made things pretty difficult for Madara. What are these several things? He whipped out a lesser version of Suanoo and threw some blades. And the debate was never about something like a simple Susanoo, if that was what I was arguing from the beginning I wouldn't have focused on the Kages and those of comparable levels. The fact that you were arguing that he wouldn't have trouble whipping out a Perfect Susanoo over the Gedo and make a bunch of mokuton clones makes it clear that we were far beyond that point. Not once did I argue that Madara wasn't going to be able to defend himself, my claim from the very beginning was that if he had to extend significant resources against top-notch opponents, it would reduce his efficiency at sealing the bijuu, and cost him focus on either that task or limit his focus on his own defence with possible risks to himself. That's been my claim from the beginning and was my initial comment that you decided to respond to.

Except that Madara is just as exceptional, if not more, and we already saw the handling of six by someone not as strong as him. I'm pretty sure we don't know that. That was one of many things. The several things were extracting the Kyuubi and Hachibi from their host, holding all the Bijuus together, employing his Susanoo, throwing around attacks to deal with Gaara and the Ichibi, and talking to White Zetsu. At least five different things were being done by him all at the same time. And I had countered that idea that he wouldn't have been able to seal the Bijuus while being attacked with the idea that he could have just activated prefect Susanoo and ignored any incoming attacks without a drop in focus. The manga proved that right, with Madara having no trouble not just using a Susanoo, but also giving focus to other things in addition to holding onto and sealing the Bijuus, with at the very most it taking longer then expected but still happening pretty quickly.

So Sasuke can't make a sword with Enton without a complete Susanoo? If he can, it's not a new ability. The orb and the weapons are simply parts of Susanoo coated with Enton. That would be proof that he activated Susanoo, not that it was a new ability gained through an advancement of Susanoo or that it was even an ability of Susanoo. And I thought it wasn't a Rinnegan technique by your reasoning, now it's not 'merely a Rinnegan technique'.

Actually, no, Sasuke has never made a solid sword using enton outside of his complete Susanoo. And they aren't "parts coated with Enton", they are physically enton interconnected with his Susanoo. And again, we're talking about things that first appeared upon the activation of his complete Susanoo and that have only been displayed with his complete Susanoo. It's not, which is the point.

We saw hundreds at that point against Madara, not the thousands upon thousands you claimed he fought.

Apart from your hyperbole of "thousands upon thousands" not being mentioned as the claim, we saw more then just a few hundred, and even more that wouldn't have been shown.

And yet he didn't do it. Maybe he was just unprepared. Something was happening is not activating a technique. Madara showed the execution of Rinne Tensei, please show me. Zetsu had speedlines too, he also handseals, and the Rinnegan, and you're still at Madara activating the technique. You pointed out the several times Madara had broken out of high-level seals prior to this, I was unaware of the 'few' times you'd shown. I didn't address what it was meant for, you claimed that the techniques used previously were at the same level as Hashirama's, and I'm struggling to see how you came to that conclusion. It would seem obvious that Hashirama's was stronger, at least to me, but you see otherwise, and I'm just curious why. Madara was at the level of the Juubi, is that what you honestly believe? If that's the case, that would explain a lot. He was relying on Zetsu, that's why he was smiling, he trusted that he would revive him. And Gaara, Kabuto, Sasori, Oro, Kakuzu? Naruto villains pretty much always have something to say, rather than doing what they're supposed to be doing. What are the reasons Black Zetsu wouldn't have been able to do it on his own, he had the tools available. And that happened after Rinne Tensei was activated through Zetsu.

Or he simply didn't give a damn, like he was shown doing. Um, I did show you, we have even been talking about it for some time... Yes, because as mentioned, he already did the same thing once already with Obito, causing Obito to use the technique against his will. The seal that Hashirama used was already used by Naruto after he gained control of the Kyuubi's chakra. Naruto used it basically the exact same way as Hashirama did. So like I said, it wasn't just specifically for the Juubi, but anything of that level. Madara had already been established to be akin to a Bijuu, and that was pretty much the situation even before his power-ups. None of those characters told a story in the middle of battle. Some of them had flashbacks, but that's a whole different thing to literally telling a story. And we're not talking about simply talking when one should be fighting, we're talking about talking about a completely separate subject that has nothing to do with the actual fight. Knowledge, first off. Can't very well use a technique he doesn't know how it works. Without anything to suggest that it could have only happen at that point.

 

[Impossibility]

But it was also used against Obito, which is what I though you were also referring to in addition to the Juubi. I'm arguing against the claim that the technique prevents the target from making any kind of movement or escape attempt. Not once were either of them shown such a mechanic or intent.

Since you seem to be at odds with my take on the technique, and Hashirama's, and the manga's take in general, could you please clarify what you think the purpose of Myojinmon is?

It was luck, since as mentioned, Madara had the means to normally see right through such a tactic, and without any kind of indication that Hashirama purposely dragged out the fight for such a purpose, it falls to luck. And I don't know what you are talking about. I have said numerous times that Madara's (and Obito's) current actions are all thanks to luck and the fact that everyone was not acting in a logical way. Logically, events should never even have gotten as far as they have, because there isn't any reason for anyone to act the way they have been outside of author's fiat.

Tactics aren't luck. A style of fighting isn't luck. And here I was thinking that you were suggesting Madara was operating on some plan. Considering that my very first comment was on how lucky Madara was, you'd think, you would've said something before this.

No, I pointed to the Prefect Susanoo and the damage it was capable of, along with the fact that it crushed the hope of the Gokages upon seeing it. I said nothing about them being "defeated" by it anywhere, and they survived it because they never actually fought against it. Minato is a specific "top-tier" ninja of Konoha, and this discussion was about what specific top-tier ninjas would have been capable of opposing Madara were he to attack Konoha. You made the claim that Madara would be overwhelmed by such individuals, but the fact remains that time and again we have been shown there are only a select few such individuals within the village. And Konoha never had to deal with the Ichibi. Madara's prefect Susanoo was stated to have the power comparable to a Bijuu, so it does compute. Tobirama is the only other ninja shown even near the tier of Hashirama and Madara. Sarutobi or his group haven't shown anything that could handle such power, nor has Mito given the specific situation we're talking about. Strengthing one's resolve does allow one to keep going and using chakra past their limit. Not in peak condition =/= unable to fight. No, what it would be like saying is that if Kakashi could handle Zabuza's suiton while holding back, he's not gonna have any problem doing the same when not holding back. If Madara could fight and defeat two jinton users without his prefect Susanoo, the one ability that could possible give him trouble regardless of defense, why would he have any issue with it? Apart from Hashirama and maybe a senjutsu enhanced Bijuu Blast from Naruto and Minato, the Alliance had nothing else that could possible have gotten through that defense.

You brought it up in the context of it's power and the Gokages were used as a measure, and I pointed out that the Gokages faced it and survived, barely, but alive. I also clarified that they were pretty much on the road to defeat regardless of the appearance of Madara's Susanoo. Minato was brought up in the conext of a bijuu attack. And obviously Konoha could handle it; they did. This discussion wasn't about specific top-tier shinobi, it was about Madara taking on Konoha. I simply pointed to specific individuals that would serve as primary threats to him, and would be most capable of handling. Gaara? Having power comparable to a bijuu is different from being a bijuu, they have completely different approaches and abilities. Mito, or most of the other shinobi at the time, haven't shown almost anything because we've barely seen them. Strengthening one's resolve is well and good, but if you're low on chakra and injured, you're low on chakra and injured. Nope, another bad analogy. Maybe he relied on other means to defeat them, means that would've been less effective against other opponents. The other bijuus, Gaara has shown a few tricks, Sakura could probably make at least a little crack in it, jinton has never failed to destroy something, I imagine genjutsu could work against Madara even in his Susanoo, apparently Sarutobi can make five clones as an Edo he could have five cracks at sealing him, I imagine that it would probably get pretty hot within a Susanoo under a bunch of Amaterasu, Kamui is always useful. There is a pretty extensive list of possibilities against a Perfect Susanoo.

Or he would have enhanced Black Zetsu with it to do so without such a conflict. Again, no definitive answer makes it only a potential path. The pieces are the Zetsus, one of which is now being used to deal with the Alliance. There wouldn't have been any reason to worry about Obito getting rid of them at that point, since not only did Obito not know of their real purpose, but he would have had no reason to suspect anything from them before Madara actually made his move against him. But it wasn't a massive "amount" considering, and if that was the case, couldn't that have been the reason he was after it in the first place? Implanting the rods would be tied to the eyes and creation of the Paths, and the Bijuus weren't resealed in anything. They remained in the Gedo Mazo. Also quite sure there aren't any actual Sharingan and Rinnegan being implanted. Except it wouldn't be easier, because he would still have had to eventually deal with Obito. Again, the Alliance hasn't been the slightest hinder to him.

Except there isn't anything to suggest that would've been an option. It is the path Madara had laid out. You just wrote the answer to your own question. And Hashirama's senjutsu chakra isn't a lot of chakra, wow. So the bijuus didn't make their way into their old hosts? So the Sharingan just appeared at will? I'm assuming a stronger Madara would find it easier to take on Obito than a weaker Madara. Except that bit about losing his arm, stopping him from getting his second eye, slowing his plan considerably, almost sealing him, and just generally making him have to work.

Except that Madara is just as exceptional, if not more, and we already saw the handling of six by someone not as strong as him. I'm pretty sure we don't know that. That was one of many things. The several things were extracting the Kyuubi and Hachibi from their host, holding all the Bijuus together, employing his Susanoo, throwing around attacks to deal with Gaara and the Ichibi, and talking to White Zetsu. At least five different things were being done by him all at the same time. And I had countered that idea that he wouldn't have been able to seal the Bijuus while being attacked with the idea that he could have just activated prefect Susanoo and ignored any incoming attacks without a drop in focus. The manga proved that right, with Madara having no trouble not just using a Susanoo, but also giving focus to other things in addition to holding onto and sealing the Bijuus, with at the very most it taking longer then expected but still happening pretty quickly.

So he's more exceptional, not disputing that. And the person who handled six already had the bijuu in question under his control, it shouldn't have been that difficult. Madara had free agents fighting against being sealed along with two jins. I'd say we do. The most recent chapter would further support that. Considering that the first two, the only tasks requiring any effort, are the tasks of focus, there are three; putting up a Susanoo, throwing some blades, and talking, things Madara could do in his sleep. What incoming attacks? No one bothered to attack him, which was my point.

Actually, no, Sasuke has never made a solid sword using enton outside of his complete Susanoo. And they aren't "parts coated with Enton", they are physically enton interconnected with his Susanoo. And again, we're talking about things that first appeared upon the activation of his complete Susanoo and that have only been displayed with his complete Susanoo. It's not, which is the point.

Is there something stopping him from using Enton to make a sword without Susanoo? The obvious reason he only uses it with Susanoo is because he can't wield the blade himself. The weapons are Enton, just like the spikes from the ribs were Enton using Susanoo as a base. You're talking about something that appeared once, and attempting to use that occasion as some sort of indication of Susanoo's abilities gained through advancement, which is just wrong. Maybe you should make up your mind then. Although, I've already made it clear what I think of its connection to the Rinnegan.

Apart from your hyperbole of "thousands upon thousands" not being mentioned as the claim, we saw more then just a few hundred, and even more that wouldn't have been shown.

Hyperbole. These were the numbers you suggested he fought. And where did we see Madara take on more than a few hundred?

Or he simply didn't give a damn, like he was shown doing. Um, I did show you, we have even been talking about it for some time... Yes, because as mentioned, he already did the same thing once already with Obito, causing Obito to use the technique against his will. The seal that Hashirama used was already used by Naruto after he gained control of the Kyuubi's chakra. Naruto used it basically the exact same way as Hashirama did. So like I said, it wasn't just specifically for the Juubi, but anything of that level. Madara had already been established to be akin to a Bijuu, and that was pretty much the situation even before his power-ups. None of those characters told a story in the middle of battle. Some of them had flashbacks, but that's a whole different thing to literally telling a story. And we're not talking about simply talking when one should be fighting, we're talking about talking about a completely separate subject that has nothing to do with the actual fight. Knowledge, first off. Can't very well use a technique he doesn't know how it works. Without anything to suggest that it could have only happen at that point.

And yet it's something he did at his earliest chance after that, suggesting that he did care. Nope, you showed him attempting to force Obito to utilise Rinne Tensei, Obito would've been executing the technique itself. In the second case, it was Zetsu in control. When did Naruto use Myojinmon? Although, I'm going to say you meant that Hahsirama used Myojinmon against Naruto, which would only seem slightly less accurate. Akin to a bijuu is a far cry from what you're suggesting, Kisame was compared to a bijuu, A was. And I'm going to take your silence on the other seals as acceptance of what I've suggested on that front. Kakuzu and Hidan talked out random nonsense a lot. Nagato told his life story. Oro runs on about anything and everything. Kabuto talks quite a bit. Danzo should've known better, but anyway. Sasori had gripes that he felt needed to be addressed. Zabuza also quite talkative despite being known as a silent assassin. Villains talk for as long as the battle lasts. And when something needs to be filled in, they kindly address it for us. Knowledge, what was lacking? Zetsu has been along for the ride for as long as Obito. He knew more than Obito. Besides the fact that it didn't, Hashirama's thoughts, the near sealing, the pointlessness of not breaking out before. Apart, they don't confirm anything, together they make a rather forceful argument, particularly considering the obvious lack of reasoning for the alternative.

 

[Cupid]

"I hope senpai notices me..."

Confess your love for your senpai on Valentine's Day! [14.02.2014]​

 

[Rikudou King]

Since you seem to be at odds with my take on the technique, and Hashirama's, and the manga's take in general, could you please clarify what you think the purpose of Myojinmon is?

I'm not at any odds with Hashirama's take on it, or the manga's general take. We were literally shown that the target still had movement and that it could be broken out of. So like I said, there's nothing supporting the idea that the target couldn't move or make an attempt at escape.

Tactics aren't luck. A style of fighting isn't luck. And here I was thinking that you were suggesting Madara was operating on some plan. Considering that my very first comment was on how lucky Madara was, you'd think, you would've said something before this.

Please show where it was suggested that Hashirama purposely wore Madara out just so he could lose his Sharingan and thus could be tricked by a clone that he normally would have been capable of seeing through. And please provide where it was suggested that this type of thing was his style of fighting. You said that he was lucky to be revived when he did, which I completely disagreed with.

You brought it up in the context of it's power and the Gokages were used as a measure, and I pointed out that the Gokages faced it and survived, barely, but alive. I also clarified that they were pretty much on the road to defeat regardless of the appearance of Madara's Susanoo. Minato was brought up in the conext of a bijuu attack. And obviously Konoha could handle it; they did. This discussion wasn't about specific top-tier shinobi, it was about Madara taking on Konoha. I simply pointed to specific individuals that would serve as primary threats to him, and would be most capable of handling. Gaara? Having power comparable to a bijuu is different from being a bijuu, they have completely different approaches and abilities. Mito, or most of the other shinobi at the time, haven't shown almost anything because we've barely seen them. Strengthening one's resolve is well and good, but if you're low on chakra and injured, you're low on chakra and injured. Nope, another bad analogy. Maybe he relied on other means to defeat them, means that would've been less effective against other opponents. The other bijuus, Gaara has shown a few tricks, Sakura could probably make at least a little crack in it, jinton has never failed to destroy something, I imagine genjutsu could work against Madara even in his Susanoo, apparently Sarutobi can make five clones as an Edo he could have five cracks at sealing him, I imagine that it would probably get pretty hot within a Susanoo under a bunch of Amaterasu, Kamui is always useful. There is a pretty extensive list of possibilities against a Perfect Susanoo.

The Gokages were used for their reaction against it. The measure of it's power was the actual damage that it did to the surrounding mountains. Except that Konoha couldn't handle it, which is why Minato had to step in twice and save everyone, and why he had to persoally deal will it. It was one of the reasons he was in a rush against Obito. This discussion was specifically began about Madara being outnumbered by top tier ninjas, and my claim that there wouldn't be that many in Konoha. The only top tier ninja we know was in Konoha at that point was Tobirama, who recently was established as not that much of a threat towards Madara even in the past. Power-wise, there is no difference. They are both similarly destructive, doing massive and wide range damage. So? Them not showing anything doesn't mean you can make presumptions that they were some kind of powerhouses. And strengthening one's resolves allows for that to be ignored, as we have seen several times. It's a fine analogy, especially since characters are rarely in peak condition when they fight. Heck, Itachi has never been in peak condition and he's still considered one of the strongest characters. Except we're talking about two of the most OP characters he has been against. The only other character who is more OP has been Hashirama. There aren't an extensive list when one remembers that prefect Susanoo could tank multiple blasts from the complete Kyuubi and required a senjutsu-enhanced thousand armed Buddha to break, and the Alliance can't even handle an unehanced version.

Except there isn't anything to suggest that would've been an option. It is the path Madara had laid out. You just wrote the answer to your own question. And Hashirama's senjutsu chakra isn't a lot of chakra, wow. So the bijuus didn't make their way into their old hosts? So the Sharingan just appeared at will? I'm assuming a stronger Madara would find it easier to take on Obito than a weaker Madara. Except that bit about losing his arm, stopping him from getting his second eye, slowing his plan considerably, almost sealing him, and just generally making him have to work.

Not only did Madara originally create Black Zetsu simply by touching a random Zetsu and letting his will/chakra bleed into it, but we also had Kabuto enhance the Zetsus too. There isn't any reason to think that such an thing wouldn't have been an option. And again, no definitive answer makes it only a potential path. You keep acting as if Madara said he was literally going to do something. My question was why would Madara keep the Zetsus back if he didn't think the Alliance wasn't going to win? Obito having no reason to attack them isn't an answer for that question. Madara called it out as not being much. The Bijuus were being channeled into their former hosts, they were still actually within the Gedo Mazo, thus the reason Naruto wasn't able to actually free them upon removing the rods. And no, as I said, the Sharingan and Rinnegan would have been tied to the implanting of the rods and creation of the Paths. Except strength has nothing to do with being able to deal with Obito. Um, he lost his arm and was slowed somewhat because of the Bijuus, not the Alliance, so that really doesn't affect my point. And his other eye isn't being delayed because of the Alliance, but two specific people, and that doesn't appear to be a hinder at all.

So he's more exceptional, not disputing that. And the person who handled six already had the bijuu in question under his control, it shouldn't have been that difficult. Madara had free agents fighting against being sealed along with two jins. I'd say we do. The most recent chapter would further support that. Considering that the first two, the only tasks requiring any effort, are the tasks of focus, there are three; putting up a Susanoo, throwing some blades, and talking, things Madara could do in his sleep. What incoming attacks? No one bothered to attack him, which was my point.

Then why would a more exception person have a problem that a less exception person had due to very specific circumstances? The entire point of the chakra chains is that a Bijuu fighting back means nothing. It's an instant win against them, like the Sharingan and Mokuton. Not at all. Need I point out Izanagi and how it's based off an ability of the Rikudou Sennin, yet the regular Sharingan can still use it even without having the other required pieces for the Rikudou Sennin's power... That's not even going into the whole connection the Uzumaki clan has to Rikudou Sennin and death, or the implication they have with the Rinnega via Madara's decision to use Nagato, an Uzumaki. Your point was that if they had attacked him, they would have delayed or hindered him, and that was disproven by the fact that he could easily have employed Susanoo and basically ignored any incoming attacks for the few moments that he needed.

Is there something stopping him from using Enton to make a sword without Susanoo? The obvious reason he only uses it with Susanoo is because he can't wield the blade himself. The weapons are Enton, just like the spikes from the ribs were Enton using Susanoo as a base. You're talking about something that appeared once, and attempting to use that occasion as some sort of indication of Susanoo's abilities gained through advancement, which is just wrong. Maybe you should make up your mind then. Although, I've already made it clear what I think of its connection to the Rinnegan.

Sasuke can touch and hold Enton. But I'm not talking about something that only appeared once, I'm talking about something that has appeared four different times, always with his complete Susanoo and never with any lesser version. My point hasn't changed, so there's nothing to make up.

Hyperbole. These were the numbers you suggested he fought. And where did we see Madara take on more than a few hundred?

Not once did I claim thousands upon thousands. And as pointed out, we were never given a complete picture of who Madara fought in the actual battle.

And yet it's something he did at his earliest chance after that, suggesting that he did care. Nope, you showed him attempting to force Obito to utilise Rinne Tensei, Obito would've been executing the technique itself. In the second case, it was Zetsu in control. When did Naruto use Myojinmon? Although, I'm going to say you meant that Hahsirama used Myojinmon against Naruto, which would only seem slightly less accurate. Akin to a bijuu is a far cry from what you're suggesting, Kisame was compared to a bijuu, A was. And I'm going to take your silence on the other seals as acceptance of what I've suggested on that front. Kakuzu and Hidan talked out random nonsense a lot. Nagato told his life story. Oro runs on about anything and everything. Kabuto talks quite a bit. Danzo should've known better, but anyway. Sasori had gripes that he felt needed to be addressed. Zabuza also quite talkative despite being known as a silent assassin. Villains talk for as long as the battle lasts. And when something needs to be filled in, they kindly address it for us. Knowledge, what was lacking? Zetsu has been along for the ride for as long as Obito. He knew more than Obito. Besides the fact that it didn't, Hashirama's thoughts, the near sealing, the pointlessness of not breaking out before. Apart, they don't confirm anything, together they make a rather forceful argument, particularly considering the obvious lack of reasoning for the alternative.

It wasn't at his earliest chance. If Madara hadn't been the one executing it, then how could he have made Obito go through the motions and preform it? As mentioned, it was implied it was Madara in control. Naruto used it when he gained control of the Kyuubi, like I had said. THose two were said to have the same amount of chakra as a Bijuu, not really the same thing. I already explained my reasonings towards the seals issue. The closest Kakuzu came to talking during battle was about his past with Hashirama, and that wasn't more then a statement. Hidan whinedin battle, but that was about it. Nagato didn't tell his life story til the fighting was over. Orochimaru mocks his opponent, but he rarely runs on and on about stuff. Same with Kabuto. Neither Danzo or Sasori did it. Nor did Zabuza. Again, we're not talking about villains simply talking, we're talking about them speaking about things that have no baring upon the actual fight, which just doesn't happen. When things need to be filled in, we normally get flashbacks, which as mentioned, is a whole different thing. How could Zetsu have known more then Obito when the specific reason Obito knew everything was because Madara literally taught him everything inside of a genjutsu? Hashirama's thoughts were shown wrong well before that point, when he thought that Naruto's FRS would solve things, already pointed out the "near sealing" wasn't actually sealing as it should have, and gave a perfectly good reason for not breaking out beforehand. There's plenty of reasons for the alternative, especially since said reasonings also explain the Zetsus and why they only appeared when they did. If Madara had truly been in trouble, truly been in a position where he couldn't escape but he wanted to, there isn't any reason he wouldn't have called forth the Zetsus to solve it. They clearly aren't pushovers as we have been shown and obviously would have made the fight much more easier if he had needed it. Not to mention that he was capable of placing the rods in Hashirama's back before he used them and there would have been no reason for that unless he intended to do what he did.

 

[Impossibility]

I'm not at any odds with Hashirama's take on it, or the manga's general take. We were literally shown that the target still had movement and that it could be broken out of. So like I said, there's nothing supporting the idea that the target couldn't move or make an attempt at escape.

This is like saying that because the Second Mizukage escaped from Gaara's sealing technique, the sealing technique isn't meant to restrict movement. No, the Mizukage was just good enough to escape. It doesn't change the intent or ability of the technique. If not to restrain, what is the purpose of Myojinmon?

Please show where it was suggested that Hashirama purposely wore Madara out just so he could lose his Sharingan and thus could be tricked by a clone that he normally would have been capable of seeing through. And please provide where it was suggested that this type of thing was his style of fighting. You said that he was lucky to be revived when he did, which I completely disagreed with.

It didn't. However, as the battle was reaching its conclusion that is the tactical decision that Hashirama came up with. He fought as such, so what else do you want? And you just said Madara's actions are thanks to luck, so what?

The Gokages were used for their reaction against it. The measure of it's power was the actual damage that it did to the surrounding mountains. Except that Konoha couldn't handle it, which is why Minato had to step in twice and save everyone, and why he had to persoally deal will it. It was one of the reasons he was in a rush against Obito. This discussion was specifically began about Madara being outnumbered by top tier ninjas, and my claim that there wouldn't be that many in Konoha. The only top tier ninja we know was in Konoha at that point was Tobirama, who recently was established as not that much of a threat towards Madara even in the past. Power-wise, there is no difference. They are both similarly destructive, doing massive and wide range damage. So? Them not showing anything doesn't mean you can make presumptions that they were some kind of powerhouses. And strengthening one's resolves allows for that to be ignored, as we have seen several times. It's a fine analogy, especially since characters are rarely in peak condition when they fight. Heck, Itachi has never been in peak condition and he's still considered one of the strongest characters. Except we're talking about two of the most OP characters he has been against. The only other character who is more OP has been Hashirama. There aren't an extensive list when one remembers that prefect Susanoo could tank multiple blasts from the complete Kyuubi and required a senjutsu-enhanced thousand armed Buddha to break, and the Alliance can't even handle an unehanced version.

A reaction of five half-dead Kages is supposed to be relevant to the ability to take on an entire village how? Is Minato not a part of Konoha? It was handled by Konoha. Nope, and if there is more than one top-tier shinobi, then he's outnumbered by top-tier shinobi. Yes, raw power isn't everything, which is my point. Simply saying that his power rivalled that of a bijuu is pretty meaningless, when others have been compared to the bijuus in similar manners, and no one would suggest that they could solo Konoha. And them not being shown in action doesn't mean you can assume that they're fodder; the manga has explicitly stated that Sarutobi was a top-tier shinobi despite your insistence, the Senju were respected as a clan for their abilities, Mito had some experience with a battle of massive magnitude, and there are a host of clans that could do some good. No, it doesn't allow for it to be ignored, that only works with characters that have been holding something back, i.e. a bijuu, a seal with a bunch of chakra, a secrte technique, the Kages had exhausted their arsenal and their chakra. Itachi was a genius and a beast, but the reality remains that a sick Itachi would still be signficicantly weaker than a healthy one. I'm not saying weakened Kages are useless, I'm saying they're a lot less useful than fully fit Kages. How've you come to the conclusion that these two were two of the most OP characters outside Hashirama, the manga has made it clear that during both their eras there were shinobi who were seen as more powerful than they were. Their technique is deadly, but it can be handled. Evidenced by the fact that Muu and the Second Mizukage managed to take each other out, they're Kages, so they're beasts, but you're stretching their status a whole lot. There aren't many, no, but I managed to think of a few quite easily.

Not only did Madara originally create Black Zetsu simply by touching a random Zetsu and letting his will/chakra bleed into it, but we also had Kabuto enhance the Zetsus too. There isn't any reason to think that such an thing wouldn't have been an option. And again, no definitive answer makes it only a potential path. You keep acting as if Madara said he was literally going to do something. My question was why would Madara keep the Zetsus back if he didn't think the Alliance wasn't going to win? Obito having no reason to attack them isn't an answer for that question. Madara called it out as not being much. The Bijuus were being channeled into their former hosts, they were still actually within the Gedo Mazo, thus the reason Naruto wasn't able to actually free them upon removing the rods. And no, as I said, the Sharingan and Rinnegan would have been tied to the implanting of the rods and creation of the Paths. Except strength has nothing to do with being able to deal with Obito. Um, he lost his arm and was slowed somewhat because of the Bijuus, not the Alliance, so that really doesn't affect my point. And his other eye isn't being delayed because of the Alliance, but two specific people, and that doesn't appear to be a hinder at all.

And enhancing Zetsus is one thing, taking them to the point that they could take over a healthy Obito is another matter entirely. There's a lot to think that wasn't an available option. Simply because the manga hasn't stated explicitly that something isn't possible doesn't mean we can't reach that conclusion on our own. It isn't just a potential path, it was the path Madara intended to take, he made that obvious. No, I keep acting as though that was Madara's intended course of action. You've answered this already, if Obito knew of Zetu's potential role he likely would've attempted to eliminate them. I'm pretty sure he just said it would be easy to handle. We know that Hashirama has a ton of chakra, this isn't debatable. You realise your portrayal of Obito's Paths make no sense and isn't what the manga showed. So what you're saying is that a more powerful Madara would find it just as difficult to deal with Obito? Surely that doesn't make much sense. And these two people are a part of what? The allied forces are made up of individual shinobi. If one of those shinobi does something, it's a part of the alliance effort.

Then why would a more exception person have a problem that a less exception person had due to very specific circumstances? The entire point of the chakra chains is that a Bijuu fighting back means nothing. It's an instant win against them, like the Sharingan and Mokuton. Not at all. Need I point out Izanagi and how it's based off an ability of the Rikudou Sennin, yet the regular Sharingan can still use it even without having the other required pieces for the Rikudou Sennin's power... That's not even going into the whole connection the Uzumaki clan has to Rikudou Sennin and death, or the implication they have with the Rinnega via Madara's decision to use Nagato, an Uzumaki. Your point was that if they had attacked him, they would have delayed or hindered him, and that was disproven by the fact that he could easily have employed Susanoo and basically ignored any incoming attacks for the few moments that he needed.

Because the more exceptional person is facing a far greater task. No, that's not the point of the chains. It isn't an instant win, neither is Mokuton, as you've constantly mentioned above. Everything is based off an ability of the Rikudou Sennin, he is the founder of the shinobi arts, pretty much. And this reference to Nagato changes what, he was an available option with the background to handle the Rinnegan. The chains used by Kushina and Karin have been linked explicitly to the Uzumaki, and the chains used by Madara have been explicitly linked to the Gedo Mazo. They're different techniques, despite their apparent similarities. That wasn't disproven. What on earth would that tiny Susanoo have done to the likes of the forces this conversation considered as threats to him from the very beginning. Once again, at the commencement of this drawn out conversation you invoked the likes of Perfect Susanoo and a bunch of mokuton clones, far removed from slapping up a base Susanoo. No one attacked Madara, he didn't have to react spontaneously, spend much chakra, or even think much.

Sasuke can touch and hold Enton. But I'm not talking about something that only appeared once, I'm talking about something that has appeared four different times, always with his complete Susanoo and never with any lesser version. My point hasn't changed, so there's nothing to make up.

Sasuke has 'held and touched' Enton, as far as I can remember, once, and that was when he seemed to be holding some blade that threw arrows to save Sakura for a second. Although, I should point out that I don't necessarily disagree with Sasuke being able to hold Enton, obviously we've seen he can, I was more referencing the fact that if he's in Susanoo, he's inside Susanoo and not in a position to do the fighting with the massive blade himself. However, for the record, Sasuke has wielded what appeared to be a blade of Enton. Are we talking about two different things right now? I'm pretty sure Tengai Shinsei wasn't used four times. What you wrote suggested otherwise.

Not once did I claim thousands upon thousands. And as pointed out, we were never given a complete picture of who Madara fought in the actual battle.

You claimed he took on Gaara's entire division, a division that by your own accounting, a number I don't dispute, comprised approximately 1/5th of the alliance's 80000 individuals, so yes, thousands upon thousands would've been an accurate, if somewhat vague, reference to the numbers you claimed. We were given panels depicting his battle, we can use our eyes.

It wasn't at his earliest chance. If Madara hadn't been the one executing it, then how could he have made Obito go through the motions and preform it? As mentioned, it was implied it was Madara in control. Naruto used it when he gained control of the Kyuubi, like I had said. THose two were said to have the same amount of chakra as a Bijuu, not really the same thing. I already explained my reasonings towards the seals issue. The closest Kakuzu came to talking during battle was about his past with Hashirama, and that wasn't more then a statement. Hidan whinedin battle, but that was about it. Nagato didn't tell his life story til the fighting was over. Orochimaru mocks his opponent, but he rarely runs on and on about stuff. Same with Kabuto. Neither Danzo or Sasori did it. Nor did Zabuza. Again, we're not talking about villains simply talking, we're talking about them speaking about things that have no baring upon the actual fight, which just doesn't happen. When things need to be filled in, we normally get flashbacks, which as mentioned, is a whole different thing. How could Zetsu have known more then Obito when the specific reason Obito knew everything was because Madara literally taught him everything inside of a genjutsu? Hashirama's thoughts were shown wrong well before that point, when he thought that Naruto's FRS would solve things, already pointed out the "near sealing" wasn't actually sealing as it should have, and gave a perfectly good reason for not breaking out beforehand. There's plenty of reasons for the alternative, especially since said reasonings also explain the Zetsus and why they only appeared when they did. If Madara had truly been in trouble, truly been in a position where he couldn't escape but he wanted to, there isn't any reason he wouldn't have called forth the Zetsus to solve it. They clearly aren't pushovers as we have been shown and obviously would have made the fight much more easier if he had needed it. Not to mention that he was capable of placing the rods in Hashirama's back before he used them and there would have been no reason for that unless he intended to do what he did.

Did he have some other opportunity I don't know about? And once again, Madara would be manipulating Obito into utilising Rinne Tensei, it would be his body, his eyes, and his chakra used. Madara was pulling the strings. No, that isn't Myojinmon, Myojinon is a sage technique utilised by Hashirama. That is Naruto using torii inside the world of the seal to contain Kurama and throw him back behind his gate. Once again, just because two techniques look superficially similar doesn't mean they are the same thing. In this case, it's pretty similar. Nope, you made a general statement, I asked you to clarify, and then there was silence. So there are other villains that addressed things that weren't completely relevant to their current battle, Sasori most definitely ran on against Sakura and Chiyo. Madara talked more because he just had a lot more time. He's as bad as Obito, if not worse. Because Zetsu has been there from the very beginning and is the only one that knew Madara's actual intentions throughout. And he's also been around for Nagato. Hashirama was wrong before, that was predicting the outcome of a technique vs seeing the outcome of a technique. And you haven't shown that the sealing wasn't working, the manga suggests the complete opposite. And you haven't given any logical reasoning to speak of. He called on a Zetsu, we saw that. He did intend to do what he did to Hashirama, and he did so as soon as he had gained his power-up with a helping hand from Zetsu and Obito.

 

[Rikudou King]

This is like saying that because the Second Mizukage escaped from Gaara's sealing technique, the sealing technique isn't meant to restrict movement. No, the Mizukage was just good enough to escape. It doesn't change the intent or ability of the technique. If not to restrain, what is the purpose of Myojinmon?

It isn't anything like that. The original claim was that Madara didn't attempt to escape or anything because he couldn't, thus he gave up trying. But as shown, that's not true. There isn't anything about that technique that would have prevented Madara from escaping, let along making an attempt to do so. There isn't any reason for Madara to have just sat there smiling except for the fact that he knew he was not in any real kind of danger.

It didn't. However, as the battle was reaching its conclusion that is the tactical decision that Hashirama came up with. He fought as such, so what else do you want? And you just said Madara's actions are thanks to luck, so what?

Which happen, as mentioned, solely because Madara was low enough on chakra that he didn't have his Sharingan active. That makes it due to luck, because the conditions were an exception to the standard. And simply doing something once does not make it a fighting style. Madara's current actions.

A reaction of five half-dead Kages is supposed to be relevant to the ability to take on an entire village how? Is Minato not a part of Konoha? It was handled by Konoha. Nope, and if there is more than one top-tier shinobi, then he's outnumbered by top-tier shinobi. Yes, raw power isn't everything, which is my point. Simply saying that his power rivalled that of a bijuu is pretty meaningless, when others have been compared to the bijuus in similar manners, and no one would suggest that they could solo Konoha. And them not being shown in action doesn't mean you can assume that they're fodder; the manga has explicitly stated that Sarutobi was a top-tier shinobi despite your insistence, the Senju were respected as a clan for their abilities, Mito had some experience with a battle of massive magnitude, and there are a host of clans that could do some good. No, it doesn't allow for it to be ignored, that only works with characters that have been holding something back, i.e. a bijuu, a seal with a bunch of chakra, a secrte technique, the Kages had exhausted their arsenal and their chakra. Itachi was a genius and a beast, but the reality remains that a sick Itachi would still be signficicantly weaker than a healthy one. I'm not saying weakened Kages are useless, I'm saying they're a lot less useful than fully fit Kages. How've you come to the conclusion that these two were two of the most OP characters outside Hashirama, the manga has made it clear that during both their eras there were shinobi who were seen as more powerful than they were. Their technique is deadly, but it can be handled. Evidenced by the fact that Muu and the Second Mizukage managed to take each other out, they're Kages, so they're beasts, but you're stretching their status a whole lot. There aren't many, no, but I managed to think of a few quite easily.

It shows the reactions of people who are heads and shoulders above the majority of people who would be within the village. No, it was handled by Minato, alone. The rest of Konoha would have lost without him, so why would they be granted credit? Yeah, and thus the reason I pointed to Onoki and Muu, to show him being outnumbered was far from an issue. Madara is the only person to be compared power-wise to a Bijuu, all the other comparisons involved the amount of chakra said person had. A clear difference. And also, quite a few ninjas have been accepted as having the ability to solo a village. I'm not assuming they are fodder, I'm simply assuming they aren't legendary powerhouses, the sort of opponents who would be capable of even standing up against Madara. And I suggest you read more carefully. I didn't say that Sarutobi wasn't top-tier, I said that he and his group haven't shown anything to handle the power we're talking about. The Senju being respected as a clan doesn't change that it has been made clear multiple times that only Hashirama could match Madara. If all the Senju could have taken him, then there would never have been any rivalry against the Uchiha clan. And Mito's experience doesn't mean she can actually fight in such a battle, especially without an instant win ability. It does allow such. We saw that with Lee, Naruto at the en of his battle with Gaara, Sasuke several times, etc. Itachi was only "significantly weaker" by the lack of spamable moves, and that didn't even fit his style. "Less useful" is questionable when even when they were "fit" they were barely capable of fighting Madara. Where in the manga has it been shown ninjas more powerful? I consider them OP because of their ability, which I'm pretty sure can't really be handled. But if you believe it can be handled, then exactly why would you believe Onoki could pose even the slightest problem for the current Madara? But the few you thought of have nothing to support the idea that they could even damage prefect Susanoo, let along get through it.

And enhancing Zetsus is one thing, taking them to the point that they could take over a healthy Obito is another matter entirely. There's a lot to think that wasn't an available option. Simply because the manga hasn't stated explicitly that something isn't possible doesn't mean we can't reach that conclusion on our own. It isn't just a potential path, it was the path Madara intended to take, he made that obvious. No, I keep acting as though that was Madara's intended course of action. You've answered this already, if Obito knew of Zetu's potential role he likely would've attempted to eliminate them. I'm pretty sure he just said it would be easy to handle. We know that Hashirama has a ton of chakra, this isn't debatable. You realise your portrayal of Obito's Paths make no sense and isn't what the manga showed. So what you're saying is that a more powerful Madara would find it just as difficult to deal with Obito? Surely that doesn't make much sense. And these two people are a part of what? The allied forces are made up of individual shinobi. If one of those shinobi does something, it's a part of the alliance effort.

Not at all. The only thing that would pose a problem for a Zetsu taking him over would be his own willing fighting against the invasion, and that can be be countered by Madara chipping in with his own control. Obito couldn't even deal with Naruto's mental attack, there's no way he would have been able to handle a double teaming of Madara's willpower. There isn't anything to think that it wasn't an available option. The only way that claim would be supported would have been if we saw Madara trying his hardest to succeed at it. Then you could justify the belief that there weren't any other options. But the very fact that Madara wasn't trying his hardest and displayed the opposite attitude does not allow for the claim that there were no other options. Not in detail, which is the point you're missing. At no point does he specifically state how things are suppose to go down. Plus, there's the whole Black Zetsu purpose and other pieces that we later learn of. Except as mentioned, Obito had no way of knowing that, at least until they actually made a move against him, meaning there isn't any reason that they couldn't have been called upon to help if Madara had needed them to help Obito. And since we know the mechanics of Sage Mode, including how easy it is for one to handle depending upon the amount, we know it wasn't alot or else it would have overwhelmed Madara. Um, Madara has alot of chakra to, at the very least comparable to Hashirama given their past fights, so that's moot here. The manga has suggested that the eyes and shown the abilities are connected to the rods, and we were told by the Yonbi that Obito was merely channeling the Bijuus into the Edo Jinchuuriki.

Because the more exceptional person is facing a far greater task. No, that's not the point of the chains. It isn't an instant win, neither is Mokuton, as you've constantly mentioned above. Everything is based off an ability of the Rikudou Sennin, he is the founder of the shinobi arts, pretty much. And this reference to Nagato changes what, he was an available option with the background to handle the Rinnegan. The chains used by Kushina and Karin have been linked explicitly to the Uzumaki, and the chains used by Madara have been explicitly linked to the Gedo Mazo. They're different techniques, despite their apparent similarities. That wasn't disproven. What on earth would that tiny Susanoo have done to the likes of the forces this conversation considered as threats to him from the very beginning. Once again, at the commencement of this drawn out conversation you invoked the likes of Perfect Susanoo and a bunch of mokuton clones, far removed from slapping up a base Susanoo. No one attacked Madara, he didn't have to react spontaneously, spend much chakra, or even think much.

Except it isn't a greater task, it's basically the same task thanks to the tools being used. That is the point of the chains, the specific reason Kushina was even chosen to be a Jinchuuriki. It has been shown as an instant win, not only that night, but as previously mentioned, even during Naruto's fight against the Kyuubi. Mokuton has been shown an instant win to, as Yamato and Hashirama have shown several times. Also, Naruto shunshin'ing out doesn't change that. Um, all the Rikudou Sennin did was show/grant the ability to use chakra. That doesn't make everything based off of his abilities. Izanagi was specifically based off the ability that the Rikudou Sennin had. Instead of choosing an Uchiha or even a Senju, Madara chose an Uzumaki. No, the chains weren't "linked explicitly" to the Uzumaki, it was the opposite. Possession of the chains were not attributed to merely being an Uzumaki, but having uniquely strong chakra. And as we saw with Obito, the chains aren't merely used with the Gedo Mazo. It was disproven when we not only see Madara having no issue employing Susanoo and doing other stuff while still maintaining his hold on the Bijuus, but that he had a piece in play to deal with the rest of the Alliance. What on earth suggest that were he actually threaten, Madara would not have resorted to prefect Susanoo, not to mention his chakra absorption ability? Madara clearly shows that he could have employed other techniques while doing what he was doing and that he was prepared to handle the rest of the Alliance with Swirly Zetsu.

Sasuke has 'held and touched' Enton, as far as I can remember, once, and that was when he seemed to be holding some blade that threw arrows to save Sakura for a second. Although, I should point out that I don't necessarily disagree with Sasuke being able to hold Enton, obviously we've seen he can, I was more referencing the fact that if he's in Susanoo, he's inside Susanoo and not in a position to do the fighting with the massive blade himself. However, for the record, Sasuke has wielded what appeared to be a blade of Enton. Are we talking about two different things right now? I'm pretty sure Tengai Shinsei wasn't used four times. What you wrote suggested otherwise.

He's done it twice, first when he saved Sakura and secondly when he and Naruto were directly attacking Jinchuuriki Obito. Aside from the random assumption that any blade he made wouldn't be adjusted for his side, Sasuke has never wielded a blade as formed as the ones used with his complete Susanoo. And no, I was talking about the orb and arrow-sword, which has only appeared on his complete Susanoo, never on any of the lesser versions.

You claimed he took on Gaara's entire division, a division that by your own accounting, a number I don't dispute, comprised approximately 1/5th of the alliance's 80000 individuals, so yes, thousands upon thousands would've been an accurate, if somewhat vague, reference to the numbers you claimed. We were given panels depicting his battle, we can use our eyes.

No, that's really not accurate at all, as it implies far more then what is being suggested. And as pointed out, we only have said panels from a single direction, without any panoramic views, meaning you're only seeing a portion of the actual force. Not to mention the aforementioned point about your assumption of the numbers being your own assumption.

Did he have some other opportunity I don't know about? And once again, Madara would be manipulating Obito into utilising Rinne Tensei, it would be his body, his eyes, and his chakra used. Madara was pulling the strings. No, that isn't Myojinmon, Myojinon is a sage technique utilised by Hashirama. That is Naruto using torii inside the world of the seal to contain Kurama and throw him back behind his gate. Once again, just because two techniques look superficially similar doesn't mean they are the same thing. In this case, it's pretty similar. Nope, you made a general statement, I asked you to clarify, and then there was silence. So there are other villains that addressed things that weren't completely relevant to their current battle, Sasori most definitely ran on against Sakura and Chiyo. Madara talked more because he just had a lot more time. He's as bad as Obito, if not worse. Because Zetsu has been there from the very beginning and is the only one that knew Madara's actual intentions throughout. And he's also been around for Nagato. Hashirama was wrong before, that was predicting the outcome of a technique vs seeing the outcome of a technique. And you haven't shown that the sealing wasn't working, the manga suggests the complete opposite. And you haven't given any logical reasoning to speak of. He called on a Zetsu, we saw that. He did intend to do what he did to Hashirama, and he did so as soon as he had gained his power-up with a helping hand from Zetsu and Obito.

What are you talking about? And no, since as mentioned, Obito was basically a Path, with obvious chakra rods coming out of him, meaning that it would have been Madara's power being channeled through him. It's not a Senjutsu, Hashirama merely used it while he was in Sage Mode. It's the exact same situation as Swirly Zetsu using a technique that Hashirama previously used while in Sage Mode. My statement was clear enough. No other villain when into a great speech about something completely irrelevant. If you want to claim that, you're gonna have to provide some links, because Sasori never went on about anything that didn't have to to with the fight. Madara talked more because he just didn't give a damn, or consider anyone else worthy. Except that has nothing to do with knowing the Rinnegan techniques or how to employ them, which was the issue here. And as far as we saw, Zetsu wasn't around Nagato all that much. No, I showed an actual example of the technique when it actually is working, and showed that the sealing happens nearly instant. There was no "waiting" for it to happen. And I did give a reason, to avoid the far more riskier Obito and his ability to kill even an Edo summon. Black Zetsu had been there the whole time, and the same was likely true for Swirly Zetsu, meaning that had Madara truly been caught, he could have had them break him out well before that point. And since he had placed the rods already in Hashirama's back, he was completely prepared to do that regardless of what happen.

 

[ashher]

back here after a long time, and Rikudo King still has the energy to have this big-ass debates i see, lol.

1 thing i wondered, why are Bleach and Naruto so down at the list of Shonen forums here nowadays, is it coz they've actually behind in popularity to the new mangas or just coz they are nearing their ends?

 

[Impossibility]

It isn't anything like that. The original claim was that Madara didn't attempt to escape or anything because he couldn't, thus he gave up trying. But as shown, that's not true. There isn't anything about that technique that would have prevented Madara from escaping, let along making an attempt to do so. There isn't any reason for Madara to have just sat there smiling except for the fact that he knew he was not in any real kind of danger.

Really? Please show me where I claimed Madara gave up trying. You consistently attempt to reframe the discussion, even very specific parts of it. This, here, has specifically been about Myojinmon, and its ability, for some time. Your words;

Neither of those techniques prevent the target from moving or fighting back.

Uh? Neither the Wooden Dragon or the torii seal are techniques that prevent movement or cancel out any ability to fight back against them.

Obviously wrong. Trying to change the discussion to something else doesn't change that.

Which happen, as mentioned, solely because Madara was low enough on chakra that he didn't have his Sharingan active. That makes it due to luck, because the conditions were an exception to the standard. And simply doing something once does not make it a fighting style. Madara's current actions.

And how did Madara end up low on chakra? Because Hashirama pushed him to such a point. Which current actions are due to luck? The only thing he'd done before that statement was absorb the bijuus, which is what began this discussion, and just before that he was being revived, something that I've also attributed to luck. So?

It shows the reactions of people who are heads and shoulders above the majority of people who would be within the village. No, it was handled by Minato, alone. The rest of Konoha would have lost without him, so why would they be granted credit? Yeah, and thus the reason I pointed to Onoki and Muu, to show him being outnumbered was far from an issue. Madara is the only person to be compared power-wise to a Bijuu, all the other comparisons involved the amount of chakra said person had. A clear difference. And also, quite a few ninjas have been accepted as having the ability to solo a village. I'm not assuming they are fodder, I'm simply assuming they aren't legendary powerhouses, the sort of opponents who would be capable of even standing up against Madara. And I suggest you read more carefully. I didn't say that Sarutobi wasn't top-tier, I said that he and his group haven't shown anything to handle the power we're talking about. The Senju being respected as a clan doesn't change that it has been made clear multiple times that only Hashirama could match Madara. If all the Senju could have taken him, then there would never have been any rivalry against the Uchiha clan. And Mito's experience doesn't mean she can actually fight in such a battle, especially without an instant win ability. It does allow such. We saw that with Lee, Naruto at the en of his battle with Gaara, Sasuke several times, etc. Itachi was only "significantly weaker" by the lack of spamable moves, and that didn't even fit his style. "Less useful" is questionable when even when they were "fit" they were barely capable of fighting Madara. Where in the manga has it been shown ninjas more powerful? I consider them OP because of their ability, which I'm pretty sure can't really be handled. But if you believe it can be handled, then exactly why would you believe Onoki could pose even the slightest problem for the current Madara? But the few you thought of have nothing to support the idea that they could even damage prefect Susanoo, let along get through it.

Yes, but not everyone, particularly not in the condition they were in. And Minato is a part of Konoha. Konoha is granted credit for those things its shinobi accomplishes. If we break it down to individuals, Konoha gets credit for nothing. Yes, because facing two shinobi is comparable to facing an entire village with individuals at that level and better. I'm assuming the jins get that credit too, at the very least. Where are these 'few' shinobi that have been claimed to be able to solo a whole village akin to Konoha? In this context, top-tier, for me, indicates someone who can be some sort of individual threat to Madara. Not only 'legendary powerhouses' are capable of making a difference. Once again, match Madara in one-on-one. Madara had other Uchiha to back him up, it wasn't Senju v Madara, that reasoning makes absolutely no sense. Why would an instant win ability be necessary from Mito? At that point, she was a jin, I'm pretty sure she could so something. And the examples you used make my point, Lee was capable of releasing his gates as a last gasp effort, Naruto had the kyuubi to pump some more chakra, and Sasuke had the CS. The only Kage with something comparable was Tsunade and her seal, but she had whipped that out ages before that point. Shinobi more powerful; Tobirama, Hashirama, Madara, Sarutobi, 3rd Raikage, and apparently the 2nd Mizukage was a match. Obviously the ability can be handled, otherwise the 2nd Mizukage would've died by himself. And I don't consider Oonoki a threat to Madara alone, I consider him a threat if he's backed by other top-tier shinobi that can keep Madara busy. And to be honest, Oonoki had mostly been mentioned in his ability to be a threat to the Gedo Mazo. The fact that comparable attacks have harmed Susanoo, and some wouldn't even be affected by Perfect Susanoo, I'd say I do.

Not at all. The only thing that would pose a problem for a Zetsu taking him over would be his own willing fighting against the invasion, and that can be be countered by Madara chipping in with his own control. Obito couldn't even deal with Naruto's mental attack, there's no way he would have been able to handle a double teaming of Madara's willpower. There isn't anything to think that it wasn't an available option. The only way that claim would be supported would have been if we saw Madara trying his hardest to succeed at it. Then you could justify the belief that there weren't any other options. But the very fact that Madara wasn't trying his hardest and displayed the opposite attitude does not allow for the claim that there were no other options. Not in detail, which is the point you're missing. At no point does he specifically state how things are suppose to go down. Plus, there's the whole Black Zetsu purpose and other pieces that we later learn of. Except as mentioned, Obito had no way of knowing that, at least until they actually made a move against him, meaning there isn't any reason that they couldn't have been called upon to help if Madara had needed them to help Obito. And since we know the mechanics of Sage Mode, including how easy it is for one to handle depending upon the amount, we know it wasn't alot or else it would have overwhelmed Madara. Um, Madara has alot of chakra to, at the very least comparable to Hashirama given their past fights, so that's moot here. The manga has suggested that the eyes and shown the abilities are connected to the rods, and we were told by the Yonbi that Obito was merely channeling the Bijuus into the Edo Jinchuuriki.

If Zetsu was simply capable of taking over Obito, this entire exercise, Madara's entire plan, the hiccups in the plan, and his subsequent reactions would be pretty stupid, and just generally illogical. I'm not even getting into attempting to compare the power of TnJ to Madara's willpower. And Madara's comments and approach suggest otherwise. He explicitly states that if Naruto hadn't weakened Obito that he was going to have to do it himself. Which is why Madara didn't point it out, this began when you posed the question about Madara revealing the Zetsu, you've answered your own question already. Madara isn't just Madara anymore, he is now capable of handling Sage chakra. And yes, Madara has a lot of chakra, and no he doesn't have as much chakra as Hashirama, and even if they were comparable, it would mean that Madara practically doubled his reserves. The manga has suggested what about the eyes and their abilities? The manga suggests that Obito further augmented the Paths to increase their abilities. And the manga showed that the bijuus were temporarily resealed using the rods, while the chakra remained under Obito's control through the Gedo.

Except it isn't a greater task, it's basically the same task thanks to the tools being used. That is the point of the chains, the specific reason Kushina was even chosen to be a Jinchuuriki. It has been shown as an instant win, not only that night, but as previously mentioned, even during Naruto's fight against the Kyuubi. Mokuton has been shown an instant win to, as Yamato and Hashirama have shown several times. Also, Naruto shunshin'ing out doesn't change that. Um, all the Rikudou Sennin did was show/grant the ability to use chakra. That doesn't make everything based off of his abilities. Izanagi was specifically based off the ability that the Rikudou Sennin had. Instead of choosing an Uchiha or even a Senju, Madara chose an Uzumaki. No, the chains weren't "linked explicitly" to the Uzumaki, it was the opposite. Possession of the chains were not attributed to merely being an Uzumaki, but having uniquely strong chakra. And as we saw with Obito, the chains aren't merely used with the Gedo Mazo. It was disproven when we not only see Madara having no issue employing Susanoo and doing other stuff while still maintaining his hold on the Bijuus, but that he had a piece in play to deal with the rest of the Alliance. What on earth suggest that were he actually threaten, Madara would not have resorted to prefect Susanoo, not to mention his chakra absorption ability? Madara clearly shows that he could have employed other techniques while doing what he was doing and that he was prepared to handle the rest of the Alliance with Swirly Zetsu.

Basically the same task? So dragging in seven bijuu and extracting two bijuu from their very conscious jins is comparable to dragging in one bijuu. Yes, Kushina was chosen because of her special chakra, but nowhere was it suggested that the bijuus fighting back meant nothing. Have you not spent quite a bit of time repeating that Hashirama's Mokuton dragon is useless because Naruto was able to escape it? How does that indicate instant win in any way? Instant is instant. And have you not seen the Rinnegan? Maybe Uzumaki's were just better options because of their special chakra, and there weren't a bunch of Senju or Uchiha kids running around without any supervision to speak of. The only two people who've used the ability are Uzumaki, Uzumakis with 'special chakra', but Uzumakis. The chains are linked to the Gedo, thus the name. Did that piece in play require some effort on his part, and I've already addressed his use of Susanoo.? He wasn't threatened because there wasn't anyone there, which was my point. And the absorption ability doesn't stop taijutsu or genjutsu. I've already covered this. And I never said he couldn't use techniques, feel free to reread.

He's done it twice, first when he saved Sakura and secondly when he and Naruto were directly attacking Jinchuuriki Obito. Aside from the random assumption that any blade he made wouldn't be adjusted for his side, Sasuke has never wielded a blade as formed as the ones used with his complete Susanoo. And no, I was talking about the orb and arrow-sword, which has only appeared on his complete Susanoo, never on any of the lesser versions.

So that would counter your claim that Sasuke couldn't make a sword of enton without Susanoo. Which once again brings up the question of how the Enton swords are an ability attributable to Susanoo. Maybe they just aren't the style he likes to use himself. He's used arrows outside of Susanoo. Those are visuals. They aren't new abilities. There isn't anything stopping Sasuke from creating such forms outside of Susanoo, he's shown that.

No, that's really not accurate at all, as it implies far more then what is being suggested. And as pointed out, we only have said panels from a single direction, without any panoramic views, meaning you're only seeing a portion of the actual force. Not to mention the aforementioned point about your assumption of the numbers being your own assumption.

Nope, so you didn't claim what I just stated, I mean, I can go back and take some quotes if you want. You even posted links trying to support such large numbers. So what number do you believe Madara took on? We saw who he was fighting. Assumption, you're assuming far more than I am, I'm simply pointing out what the manga showed.

What are you talking about? And no, since as mentioned, Obito was basically a Path, with obvious chakra rods coming out of him, meaning that it would have been Madara's power being channeled through him. It's not a Senjutsu, Hashirama merely used it while he was in Sage Mode. It's the exact same situation as Swirly Zetsu using a technique that Hashirama previously used while in Sage Mode. My statement was clear enough. No other villain when into a great speech about something completely irrelevant. If you want to claim that, you're gonna have to provide some links, because Sasori never went on about anything that didn't have to to with the fight. Madara talked more because he just didn't give a damn, or consider anyone else worthy. Except that has nothing to do with knowing the Rinnegan techniques or how to employ them, which was the issue here. And as far as we saw, Zetsu wasn't around Nagato all that much. No, I showed an actual example of the technique when it actually is working, and showed that the sealing happens nearly instant. There was no "waiting" for it to happen. And I did give a reason, to avoid the far more riskier Obito and his ability to kill even an Edo summon. Black Zetsu had been there the whole time, and the same was likely true for Swirly Zetsu, meaning that had Madara truly been caught, he could have had them break him out well before that point. And since he had placed the rods already in Hashirama's back, he was completely prepared to do that regardless of what happen.

You suggested he didn't take his earliest opportunity, if not, which ones did he pass up? Obito wasn't a Path, he was a living being, the technique would've been his, he would've paid the price and been responsible for the technique. The technique is classified as a Sage Art, so that's what it is. And yet, it didn't exist. Completely irrelevant is relative, but a look at any number of fights would confirm a tendency to talk by villains, it's a shounen standard. He was around for the whole thing, every step of the way for the plan, a Zetsu is over there spewing Hashirama's jutsu, and you think it's somehow strange that he would know Rinnegan jutsu. What you showed was that that sealing was taking slightly longer, that doesn't show the seal wasn't working in any shape or way, Sai blatantly states that the seal is working fine. Except that reason doesn't make sense with everything else; Madara under the torii even after his defeat, Madara's thoughts on fighting Obito anyway. And Madara had them aid him as soon as Zetsu had a clear opening. Supposedly there are pretty large distances between everything, I know that doesn't make much sense considering the events, but that's what the manga's going with. And maybe Zetsu didn't want to deal with Hashirama, or just wasn't ready. But he didn't do it until Rinne Tensei, and the only reason that makes sense, is if he couldn't do it before. I've had this argument with others already.

 

[Rikudou King]

Really? Please show me where I claimed Madara gave up trying. You consistently attempt to reframe the discussion, even very specific parts of it. This, here, has specifically been about Myojinmon, and its ability, for some time. Your words;

Obviously wrong. Trying to change the discussion to something else doesn't change that.

How exactly are they wrong when I literally showed that the target can move and fight back while being binded by (those) techniques? I'm not claiming anything that I haven't been claiming the whole time. And you claimed that Madara made no attempt to escape or fight back because there was no alternative, and that's clearly not true.

Yes, I'm pointing out his personality. Your description of his personality would suggest that he wouldn't allow himself to be put into that situation unless it was beyond his control. I don't think he was a gracious loser, I think he simply was forced to respond as he did because there wasn't a practical alternative. If he didn't act as he did, he'd be finished.

And how did Madara end up low on chakra? Because Hashirama pushed him to such a point. Which current actions are due to luck? The only thing he'd done before that statement was absorb the bijuus, which is what began this discussion, and just before that he was being revived, something that I've also attributed to luck. So?

There is nothing to suggest that Hashirama pushed him to that point on purpose, which is the point. Madara has also employed his doujutsu abilities despite not having the eyes, the durability to be swatted around by the Bijuus without any protection, and a never before hinted at Rinnegan technique.

Yes, but not everyone, particularly not in the condition they were in. And Minato is a part of Konoha. Konoha is granted credit for those things its shinobi accomplishes. If we break it down to individuals, Konoha gets credit for nothing. Yes, because facing two shinobi is comparable to facing an entire village with individuals at that level and better. I'm assuming the jins get that credit too, at the very least. Where are these 'few' shinobi that have been claimed to be able to solo a whole village akin to Konoha? In this context, top-tier, for me, indicates someone who can be some sort of individual threat to Madara. Not only 'legendary powerhouses' are capable of making a difference. Once again, match Madara in one-on-one. Madara had other Uchiha to back him up, it wasn't Senju v Madara, that reasoning makes absolutely no sense. Why would an instant win ability be necessary from Mito? At that point, she was a jin, I'm pretty sure she could so something. And the examples you used make my point, Lee was capable of releasing his gates as a last gasp effort, Naruto had the kyuubi to pump some more chakra, and Sasuke had the CS. The only Kage with something comparable was Tsunade and her seal, but she had whipped that out ages before that point. Shinobi more powerful; Tobirama, Hashirama, Madara, Sarutobi, 3rd Raikage, and apparently the 2nd Mizukage was a match. Obviously the ability can be handled, otherwise the 2nd Mizukage would've died by himself. And I don't consider Oonoki a threat to Madara alone, I consider him a threat if he's backed by other top-tier shinobi that can keep Madara busy. And to be honest, Oonoki had mostly been mentioned in his ability to be a threat to the Gedo Mazo. The fact that comparable attacks have harmed Susanoo, and some wouldn't even be affected by Perfect Susanoo, I'd say I do.

Condition hardly matters when that wasn't a factor in their reaction. It's not as if they were dishearten because they weren't in a condition to fight it or something like that. No, that's not how it works. It would be one thing if multiple Konoha ninjas aided in doing something, then perhaps you could grant the credit to them all, or if whatever was done was common enough that you could justify the idea that any of them could have accomplished it. But you can't grant credit for something a specific person did thanks to their own unique ability. That logic makes no sense. And again, the only noted shinobi that would have been on the level of Onoki and Muu is Tobirama and maybe Sarutobi. There would not have been anyone "better" and there surely wouldn't have been an entire village. Nagato literally did solo the village, Sasori was acknowledged also to have solo'd a village, and Deidara was shown capable of doing so too, just for starters. Your context of top-tier makes no sense, especially when the only person acknowledged to pose any threat to Madara has been Hashirama. And what are you talking about? Madara took on Hashirama and a bunch of Senju along, not to mention that such a thing shouldn't have even mattered given that Madara was acknowledged as the strongest Uchiha, meaning any others with him would have been even easier using that logic. Mito was a Jinchuuriki in status only. There is nothing to suggest either she or Kushina actually developed as a Jinchuuriki, especially given that the majority of Konoha had no idea that they possessed the Kyuubi. Lee kept going after he lost the gates, Naruto kept going after both he and Gaara were on the ground, and there are plenty of examples with Sasuke, such as his fight with Deidara and with Itachi of him continuing on without anything. There isn't any justification for that list after Madara. And no, the techniques being handled would be proven by the Mizukage surviving. Him not dying along doesn't show that the techniques could be handled, only that he too had such power. Right, because the last three times Onoki attacked Madara with others worked out so well... And in defense of the Gedo Mazo was brought up the idea that prefect Susanoo could cover it, as Madara has been shown capable of doing.

If Zetsu was simply capable of taking over Obito, this entire exercise, Madara's entire plan, the hiccups in the plan, and his subsequent reactions would be pretty stupid, and just generally illogical. I'm not even getting into attempting to compare the power of TnJ to Madara's willpower. And Madara's comments and approach suggest otherwise. He explicitly states that if Naruto hadn't weakened Obito that he was going to have to do it himself. Which is why Madara didn't point it out, this began when you posed the question about Madara revealing the Zetsu, you've answered your own question already. Madara isn't just Madara anymore, he is now capable of handling Sage chakra. And yes, Madara has a lot of chakra, and no he doesn't have as much chakra as Hashirama, and even if they were comparable, it would mean that Madara practically doubled his reserves. The manga has suggested what about the eyes and their abilities? The manga suggests that Obito further augmented the Paths to increase their abilities. And the manga showed that the bijuus were temporarily resealed using the rods, while the chakra remained under Obito's control through the Gedo.

Maybe for you. I recall at least two previous examples of another's will nearly taking over a person's body, Orochimaru via Kabuto and Hashirama via Danzo. So it's something already established as possible and fits with what we were given regarding Black Zetsu's purpose and the later revelations. Madara never explicitly stated that he would have had to do it himself. My statement doesn't at all answer the question I put forth, of why the Zetsus wouldn't be used to help Obito. One doesn't just become capable of handling senjutsu. And by all accounts, Madara did have as much chakra as Hashirama. At least twice we were shown him lasting just as long as Hashirama in battle, one time going an entire day, despite employing costly techniques. Ad no, it wouldn't mean that at all. We have clearly see a few times that even an Edo summon can run low, such as when Minato got caught by the Shinju roots and didn't have enough chakra to go save Naruto. The manga has suggested that they are connected to the rods insertion. And the manga doesn't suggest that Obito augmented the Paths, because he didn't give them any new abilities but kept the ones they already possessed. They weren't resealed, they were channeled, which is why the removal of the rods didn't actually free them.

Basically the same task? So dragging in seven bijuu and extracting two bijuu from their very conscious jins is comparable to dragging in one bijuu. Yes, Kushina was chosen because of her special chakra, but nowhere was it suggested that the bijuus fighting back meant nothing. Have you not spent quite a bit of time repeating that Hashirama's Mokuton dragon is useless because Naruto was able to escape it? How does that indicate instant win in any way? Instant is instant. And have you not seen the Rinnegan? Maybe Uzumaki's were just better options because of their special chakra, and there weren't a bunch of Senju or Uchiha kids running around without any supervision to speak of. The only two people who've used the ability are Uzumaki, Uzumakis with 'special chakra', but Uzumakis. The chains are linked to the Gedo, thus the name. Did that piece in play require some effort on his part, and I've already addressed his use of Susanoo.? He wasn't threatened because there wasn't anyone there, which was my point. And the absorption ability doesn't stop taijutsu or genjutsu. I've already covered this. And I never said he couldn't use techniques, feel free to reread.

The number of Bijuus don't matter when the chains are meant to instantly shut them down regardless. We were told specifically that she can suppress the Kyuubi. We have had numerous showing of just that all across the manga. No I haven't, and again, Naruto escaping it doesn't change the point here, that they negate the Bijuu and their chakra. As stated, we have seen the instant win of it several times from both Yamato, such as during Naruto's FRS training, and Hashirama, such as his final fight with Madara. First off, there was nothing "special" about Nagato's chakra, and secondly, Madara clearly had access to the Uchiha clan given that he was able to get another Sharingan. Except they aren't the only people, which is the entire point, and the fact that they're attributed to a unique ability as oppose to their clan, is the other point. And Izanagi is linked to the Rikudou Sennin, didn't prevent it from being used by others. Clearly it didn't require any effort, given that he called for Swirly Zetsu well before his revival. Yeah, no one else was there because they were being dealt with by another of his pieces, which is the point. Taijutsu wouldn't even be able to get to him within prefect Susanoo, and genjutsu is silly given that he has the Sharingan/Rinnegan.

So that would counter your claim that Sasuke couldn't make a sword of enton without Susanoo. Which once again brings up the question of how the Enton swords are an ability attributable to Susanoo. Maybe they just aren't the style he likes to use himself. He's used arrows outside of Susanoo. Those are visuals. They aren't new abilities. There isn't anything stopping Sasuke from creating such forms outside of Susanoo, he's shown that.

No, because the issue here has been the application of that specific orb and arrow-sword, that is always appearing whenever he employs his complete Susanoo, but not outside it. Using an actual physical bow and arrow isn't in the least bit comparable to this situation. The fact that he could "possibly" use them outside doesn't not make them a new ability, especially since he hasn't actually done so. Anyway, by that logic, Enton wouldn't be a new ability because Sasuke could already employ Amaterasu, and we clearly been told it's a separate ability.

Nope, so you didn't claim what I just stated, I mean, I can go back and take some quotes if you want. You even posted links trying to support such large numbers. So what number do you believe Madara took on? We saw who he was fighting. Assumption, you're assuming far more than I am, I'm simply pointing out what the manga showed.

No, I never claimed that. I claimed the fifth, which as you acknowledged comes out to about 16000. That isn't a "thousand of thousands", which suggest at least a million. And I'm pointing out that the manga shows Madara fighting in the middle of the group, but only shows a side of that group at any one time.

You suggested he didn't take his earliest opportunity, if not, which ones did he pass up? Obito wasn't a Path, he was a living being, the technique would've been his, he would've paid the price and been responsible for the technique. The technique is classified as a Sage Art, so that's what it is. And yet, it didn't exist. Completely irrelevant is relative, but a look at any number of fights would confirm a tendency to talk by villains, it's a shounen standard. He was around for the whole thing, every step of the way for the plan, a Zetsu is over there spewing Hashirama's jutsu, and you think it's somehow strange that he would know Rinnegan jutsu. What you showed was that that sealing was taking slightly longer, that doesn't show the seal wasn't working in any shape or way, Sai blatantly states that the seal is working fine. Except that reason doesn't make sense with everything else; Madara under the torii even after his defeat, Madara's thoughts on fighting Obito anyway. And Madara had them aid him as soon as Zetsu had a clear opening. Supposedly there are pretty large distances between everything, I know that doesn't make much sense considering the events, but that's what the manga's going with. And maybe Zetsu didn't want to deal with Hashirama, or just wasn't ready. But he didn't do it until Rinne Tensei, and the only reason that makes sense, is if he couldn't do it before. I've had this argument with others already.

There were plenty of opportunities well before that point, such as right when Madara originally came to the field, a point in time where Black Zetsu was already waiting. Obito was basically a Path as shown, he had the rods within him, and as we saw a few times with Nagato, they still transmit his chakra even into living targets. And again, so was the buddha that Swirly Zetsu is now using. Completely irrelevant isn't relative. It clearly goes toward talking about something that has nothing to do with the fight itself. As repeatedly mentioned, we're not talking about merely talking, we're talking about a long conversation revealing stuff that was neither asked for nor relevant. That is not something that happens in Naruto. That doesn't change that the only reason that Obito knew anything was specifically because Madara went out of his way to literally teach him everything within a genjutsu. And the implication about Swirly Zetsu is that he's using Yamato, so that really doesn't help your claim. No, what Sai stated was that there was only a little more to go, which aside from not even working like previously shown, still didn't succeed even though there was quite some time between that point and Madara's actual revival. Where did Madara ever suggest that he still intended to fight Obito, please show that page. The closest we got to anything like that was simply him thanking Naruto for saving him the trouble of having to weaken Obito, which is not the same thing at all. And not really, Obito was down and on the ground for some time before Black Zetsu made his move, without anything that could have gotten in his way, and Swirly Zetsu was seemingly around that whole time dealing with the rest of the Alliance. Neither of those assumptions have anything to back them up, nor are real factors here. Except there is nothing to suggest that he couldn't have done it before. If there was a mention about his power in the rods or it stated as an actual technique, then perhaps you could make that argument. But as it stands, the rods are simply rods pressed in the pressure points, plain and simple.

 

[Impossibility]

How exactly are they wrong when I literally showed that the target can move and fight back while being binded by (those) techniques? I'm not claiming anything that I haven't been claiming the whole time. And you claimed that Madara made no attempt to escape or fight back because there was no alternative, and that's clearly not true.

They are wrong. You've shown individuals break out of the technique, that doesn't somehow change the intent of the technique. And that quote is what you suggested in your last post that I stated how? Not even close.

There is nothing to suggest that Hashirama pushed him to that point on purpose, which is the point. Madara has also employed his doujutsu abilities despite not having the eyes, the durability to be swatted around by the Bijuus without any protection, and a never before hinted at Rinnegan technique.

He fought him, what other purpose would there be? And how are those things luck? They may seem like nonsense abilties, but I don't classify them as luck.

Condition hardly matters when that wasn't a factor in their reaction. It's not as if they were dishearten because they weren't in a condition to fight it or something like that. No, that's not how it works. It would be one thing if multiple Konoha ninjas aided in doing something, then perhaps you could grant the credit to them all, or if whatever was done was common enough that you could justify the idea that any of them could have accomplished it. But you can't grant credit for something a specific person did thanks to their own unique ability. That logic makes no sense. And again, the only noted shinobi that would have been on the level of Onoki and Muu is Tobirama and maybe Sarutobi. There would not have been anyone "better" and there surely wouldn't have been an entire village. Nagato literally did solo the village, Sasori was acknowledged also to have solo'd a village, and Deidara was shown capable of doing so too, just for starters. Your context of top-tier makes no sense, especially when the only person acknowledged to pose any threat to Madara has been Hashirama. And what are you talking about? Madara took on Hashirama and a bunch of Senju along, not to mention that such a thing shouldn't have even mattered given that Madara was acknowledged as the strongest Uchiha, meaning any others with him would have been even easier using that logic. Mito was a Jinchuuriki in status only. There is nothing to suggest either she or Kushina actually developed as a Jinchuuriki, especially given that the majority of Konoha had no idea that they possessed the Kyuubi. Lee kept going after he lost the gates, Naruto kept going after both he and Gaara were on the ground, and there are plenty of examples with Sasuke, such as his fight with Deidara and with Itachi of him continuing on without anything. There isn't any justification for that list after Madara. And no, the techniques being handled would be proven by the Mizukage surviving. Him not dying along doesn't show that the techniques could be handled, only that he too had such power. Right, because the last three times Onoki attacked Madara with others worked out so well... And in defense of the Gedo Mazo was brought up the idea that prefect Susanoo could cover it, as Madara has been shown capable of doing.

Condition was. They're obviously capable of handling less when they're on their last legs. Konoha gets credit for the feats of its shinobi. It's been claimed that Sarutobi was better. And once again, Mito is probably worth a mention. You claimed he was capable of soloing Konoha, so obviously there's an entire village. Nagato failed in the end, Sasori took down some nameless village, which undoubtedly doesn't compare to Konoha, and Deidara didn't solo a village, although he probably would be capable of soloing Suna, I'd wager quite a few individuals would. That isn't surprising though, Suna has had the weakest showing of any of the villages. Once again, it's been stated that Hashirama was the only match for Madara. Madara wasn't alone, he ended that battle alone. Yes, but the others would've been fighting other Senju. A bit like when Tobirama was busy fighting Izuna. We've no idea what Mito was, the only thing we know it that she was an Uzumaki with the kyuubi, and she was involved in the sealing of said Kyuubi at the time of Madara's attack. We've seen what Uzumakis are capable of, and what jins are capable of. Lee kept moving and was about to die, his resolve didn't change his weakened condition, Naruto was crawling along the ground, hardly a showing of resolve allowing one to ignore one's condition, I don't know what the Itachi mention is for, and Sasuke showed his condition, he simply had one last trick. The list is justified by what we've been told. Mizukage taking down Muu shows that he could handle the attacks to such a point that he could take Muu down with him. It did work to a certain extent, and the others didn't include the individuals I'd mentioned, or the fact that he's be focused on the Gedo, as I've previously mentioned on multiple occasions. And I've already argued there isn't anything to suggest that perfect susanoo would stop jinton, and if Madara utilised perfect Susanoo around the Gedo Mazo that would require more of his resources. I'm pretty I've already written this and you've decided to go around in circles.

Maybe for you. I recall at least two previous examples of another's will nearly taking over a person's body, Orochimaru via Kabuto and Hashirama via Danzo. So it's something already established as possible and fits with what we were given regarding Black Zetsu's purpose and the later revelations. Madara never explicitly stated that he would have had to do it himself. My statement doesn't at all answer the question I put forth, of why the Zetsus wouldn't be used to help Obito. One doesn't just become capable of handling senjutsu. And by all accounts, Madara did have as much chakra as Hashirama. At least twice we were shown him lasting just as long as Hashirama in battle, one time going an entire day, despite employing costly techniques. Ad no, it wouldn't mean that at all. We have clearly see a few times that even an Edo summon can run low, such as when Minato got caught by the Shinju roots and didn't have enough chakra to go save Naruto. The manga has suggested that they are connected to the rods insertion. And the manga doesn't suggest that Obito augmented the Paths, because he didn't give them any new abilities but kept the ones they already possessed. They weren't resealed, they were channeled, which is why the removal of the rods didn't actually free them.

Not for me, for everyone. Obito's persona wouldn't have been necessary. Both different scenarios and different means, they aren't even close to comparable. His statement indicated that he thought he would. That wasn't your question. Feel free to go back and check. If one has been modified, apparently yes. No, EMS allows one to use said techniques with less cost, Madara also had Kurama, and Hashirama's overly large techniques aren't exactly cheap. Which would change what I suggested why? When did the manga indicate that the eyes just popped into their heads just because of the rods. So their hax eyes don't count as augmentation? If they were being channelled through the rods as you suggest, surely the bijuus would've disappeared when the rod was removed. As I've said, the bijuus were simply being controlled through the Gedo.

The number of Bijuus don't matter when the chains are meant to instantly shut them down regardless. We were told specifically that she can suppress the Kyuubi. We have had numerous showing of just that all across the manga. No I haven't, and again, Naruto escaping it doesn't change the point here, that they negate the Bijuu and their chakra. As stated, we have seen the instant win of it several times from both Yamato, such as during Naruto's FRS training, and Hashirama, such as his final fight with Madara. First off, there was nothing "special" about Nagato's chakra, and secondly, Madara clearly had access to the Uchiha clan given that he was able to get another Sharingan. Except they aren't the only people, which is the entire point, and the fact that they're attributed to a unique ability as oppose to their clan, is the other point. And Izanagi is linked to the Rikudou Sennin, didn't prevent it from being used by others. Clearly it didn't require any effort, given that he called for Swirly Zetsu well before his revival. Yeah, no one else was there because they were being dealt with by another of his pieces, which is the point. Taijutsu wouldn't even be able to get to him within prefect Susanoo, and genjutsu is silly given that he has the Sharingan/Rinnegan.

Numbers don't matter, based on what, this is just very obvious. And I've already addressed this nonsense about the chains shutting down the bijuu; they're capable of fighting back, as has been shown, and even capable of blocking a Susanoo blade while at it. Yes, her special chakra allows her to suppress the Kyubi, but by no means does that instantly shut down the Kyuubi. It does, obviously. If it was an instant shut down, as you claim, he wouldn't have escaped. Yamato admitted to his limits. And I don't get the reference to Hashirama. He's an Uzumaki, they're known for their life force and strong chakra. Access to the Uchiha Clan to gain an eye, and free control and manipulation of a clanless child in the middle of a war-torn country are far apart, if Madara had attempted to manipulate an Uchiha from the village, someone might have noticed, particularly if they began sporting the Rinnegan. Nagato was simply an ideal candidate based on abilities and background. They are. The chains linked to the Gedo are another matter entirely, and just because every Uzumaki doesn't posses it doesn't mean it isn't distinct to the clan, every Uchiha doesn't get to sport a Sharingan, doesn't change the link between the two. So why bring up swirly Zetsu in this context? No it isn't the point, because this discussion began long before the reveal of swirly Zetsu. This began as a question of what the others were doing, and how their availability could've contributed. You questioned that from the beginning, swirly Zetsu couldn't have been the reason you decided to criticise my point because you aren't prescient. I've seen some taijutsu crack some Susanoos, and this was in reference to Madara's absorption ability, and the Sharingan didn't stop the Uchiha brothers from being affected by Tayuya's genjutsu, the Sharingan is immune to visual genjutsus, one's that attack through the auditory system are another matter entirely.

No, because the issue here has been the application of that specific orb and arrow-sword, that is always appearing whenever he employs his complete Susanoo, but not outside it. Using an actual physical bow and arrow isn't in the least bit comparable to this situation. The fact that he could "possibly" use them outside doesn't not make them a new ability, especially since he hasn't actually done so. Anyway, by that logic, Enton wouldn't be a new ability because Sasuke could already employ Amaterasu, and we clearly been told it's a separate ability.

That isn't an ability, you've in no way connected an ability to an advancement of Susanoo. Not possibly, actually use them outside of Susanoo. Enton isn't itself a new ability, it's a nature, the manipulation and free use of Enton is the ability itself that was granted.

No, I never claimed that. I claimed the fifth, which as you acknowledged comes out to about 16000. That isn't a "thousand of thousands", which suggest at least a million. And I'm pointing out that the manga shows Madara fighting in the middle of the group, but only shows a side of that group at any one time.

Show me where I said 'thousands of thousands', please do. I said 'thousands upon thousands', which indicates several thousand. If you weren't so desperate to be right, maybe you'd avoid being so needlessly wrong and wasting so much time in the process. And I'm showing that that group was never shown to amount to more than a few hundred at that time.

There were plenty of opportunities well before that point, such as right when Madara originally came to the field, a point in time where Black Zetsu was already waiting. Obito was basically a Path as shown, he had the rods within him, and as we saw a few times with Nagato, they still transmit his chakra even into living targets. And again, so was the buddha that Swirly Zetsu is now using. Completely irrelevant isn't relative. It clearly goes toward talking about something that has nothing to do with the fight itself. As repeatedly mentioned, we're not talking about merely talking, we're talking about a long conversation revealing stuff that was neither asked for nor relevant. That is not something that happens in Naruto. That doesn't change that the only reason that Obito knew anything was specifically because Madara went out of his way to literally teach him everything within a genjutsu. And the implication about Swirly Zetsu is that he's using Yamato, so that really doesn't help your claim. No, what Sai stated was that there was only a little more to go, which aside from not even working like previously shown, still didn't succeed even though there was quite some time between that point and Madara's actual revival. Where did Madara ever suggest that he still intended to fight Obito, please show that page. The closest we got to anything like that was simply him thanking Naruto for saving him the trouble of having to weaken Obito, which is not the same thing at all. And not really, Obito was down and on the ground for some time before Black Zetsu made his move, without anything that could have gotten in his way, and Swirly Zetsu was seemingly around that whole time dealing with the rest of the Alliance. Neither of those assumptions have anything to back them up, nor are real factors here. Except there is nothing to suggest that he couldn't have done it before. If there was a mention about his power in the rods or it stated as an actual technique, then perhaps you could make that argument. But as it stands, the rods are simply rods pressed in the pressure points, plain and simple.

That wasn't an opportunity. Obito was in good working order, where was the opportunity. Black Zetsu was waiting for absolutely nothing at that point. That doesn't make them a Path, a Path is pretty specific. And, so what? Does that change something? Swirly Zetsu is capable of using Hashirama's techniques. It is depending on the person's interest. Some would say that Madara's conversation wasn't completely irrelevant considering the wider context, in the same way that some would describe Obito's endless talking as relevant. Either way, there's a sizeable list of villains who talk too much. Well, everyone seemed pretty curious about the Shinju, so it was kind of asked for, and somewhat relevant to the war at hand. And Zetsu was around at that point, and has been around Rinnegan users since then. Swirly Zetsu would sort of prove my point, it would be exactly the same situation with Obito, using techniques by means of the body of another. Nope, Sai says everything's fine, almost there, andthen Rinne Tensei and Myojinmon goes pop. I'm referring to the same thoughts that are mentioned above about fighting Obito,you reference them. We've no idea when Swirly Zetsu popped up, and if the time was so long, as you point out, between Obito's defeat and Zetsu's action, why didn't Madara break out during that time? Why did he only do it after Rinne Tensei. There isn't anything to suggest that he could have escaped on his own before, the fact that he didn't speaks volumes. Except that doesn't make any sense because Hashirama executed techniques and continued in action after the rods were placed in him, so it isn't just simply rods in pressure points, otherwise Hashirama would've been down the moment those rods were in him.

 

[Cupid]

Love is like a hurricane!



Profess your love for your soulmate on Valentine's Day! [02.14.2014]​

 

[Rikudou King]

They are wrong. You've shown individuals break out of the technique, that doesn't somehow change the intent of the technique. And that quote is what you suggested in your last post that I stated how? Not even close.

No they aren't. The point, as it has always been, was that there wasn't any reason for Madara to just calmly sit there if he was truly in trouble. You claimed that he had no choice but to do that, and I clearly showed that wasn't true. There wasn't anything preventing him from making an attempt to escape or move.

He fought him, what other purpose would there be? And how are those things luck? They may seem like nonsense abilties, but I don't classify them as luck.

Him fighting Madara doesn't prove anything. Case in point, he had originally began that fight without any intent to actually kill Madara. Lack of any foreshadowing, the fact that normally contact with a Bijuu's chakra is suppose to burn as we have seen a few times, the fact that they chose such a random method of attack instead of employing the far more use of Bijuu Blasts, etc.

Condition was. They're obviously capable of handling less when they're on their last legs. Konoha gets credit for the feats of its shinobi. It's been claimed that Sarutobi was better. And once again, Mito is probably worth a mention. You claimed he was capable of soloing Konoha, so obviously there's an entire village. Nagato failed in the end, Sasori took down some nameless village, which undoubtedly doesn't compare to Konoha, and Deidara didn't solo a village, although he probably would be capable of soloing Suna, I'd wager quite a few individuals would. That isn't surprising though, Suna has had the weakest showing of any of the villages. Once again, it's been stated that Hashirama was the only match for Madara. Madara wasn't alone, he ended that battle alone. Yes, but the others would've been fighting other Senju. A bit like when Tobirama was busy fighting Izuna. We've no idea what Mito was, the only thing we know it that she was an Uzumaki with the kyuubi, and she was involved in the sealing of said Kyuubi at the time of Madara's attack. We've seen what Uzumakis are capable of, and what jins are capable of. Lee kept moving and was about to die, his resolve didn't change his weakened condition, Naruto was crawling along the ground, hardly a showing of resolve allowing one to ignore one's condition, I don't know what the Itachi mention is for, and Sasuke showed his condition, he simply had one last trick. The list is justified by what we've been told. Mizukage taking down Muu shows that he could handle the attacks to such a point that he could take Muu down with him. It did work to a certain extent, and the others didn't include the individuals I'd mentioned, or the fact that he's be focused on the Gedo, as I've previously mentioned on multiple occasions. And I've already argued there isn't anything to suggest that perfect susanoo would stop jinton, and if Madara utilised perfect Susanoo around the Gedo Mazo that would require more of his resources. I'm pretty I've already written this and you've decided to go around in circles.

* Unless you can show that they would have been capable of handling prefect Susanoo in a "better" condition, condition does not matter as stated.
* No, Konoha doesn't get credit. Konoha has never gotten credit for the achievements of lone ninjas. If you have an example to prove otherwise, then feel free to show it. By that logic, it would have been claimed that Konoha defeated Pain, which clearly has never been claimed.
* The praise for Sarutobi was all in Part One, which is why I said perhaps. He hasn't shown anything "better" that would suggest that he could be a match against Madara.
* Once again, no, she's not. There is nothing to base that idea on except for the fact that she took down the Kyuubi, and that was clearly thanks to her unique ability, something that won't be a factor in this situation.
* As mentioned before, the number of ninjas at Onoki and Muu's level or "better" would not have been many. The majority of of the villagers would have been useless fodder, like they always are.
* Nagato didn't fail to take down the whole village, there isn't anything to support the idea that Sasori's village wasn't a real challenge, and Deidara showed that he could have taken out a village with a single move. Also, Suna wasn't that weak, they were capable of trashing Konoha with only an army of 200.
* Which goes right back to the point of no one else being capable of really doing anything against him. If Madara could be handled just by a few powerful ninjas, then there wouldn't have been any worry when the Gokage took him on. Yet Dan believed they were incapable of defeating him and resorted to only Hashirama doing that. And this was without him even being aware of Madara's up-grades.
* What are you talking about? There isn't a single sign of anyone else with Madara.
* Mito was just like Kushina, as we were told. And in that way, they were not like regular Jinchuuriki. They were meant to merely seal the Kyuubi, not to be used as weapons like the other Jinchuuriki, which is why as mentioned, Konoha had no idea that they were in possession of the Kyuubi before the attack.
* His resolve allowed him to keep moving, which is the point. Same with Naruto, compared to the equally weaken Gaara who was incapable of moving. Against Itachi, Sasuke kept going despite being weakened, same with Deidara.
* There is nothing showing that Sarutobi could handle Onoki's attacks, or the Sandaime Raikage, or the Nidaime Mizukage. And no, all it shows was that he could kill Muu regardless of dying too. That's not handling.
* Madara wasn't even seriously and they could barely trouble him. And focus is moot, as we have seen.
* Circles? I pointed to the fact that he could do it with the Kyuubi without effort, something he did back when he didn't have even more stamina or senjutsu or chakra absorption. It makes little sense for you to argue about Madara's resources when we have never seen an actual limit for him, much less been given a limit of where he would "lose concentration or be incapable of maintaining a hold on the Bijuus". I also pointed out that Madara took on both Onoki and Muu, thereby clearly showing that he has the means to deal with Dust release. Not to mention, that according to your belief, their recent condition made them incapable of handling prefect Susanoo, so how could they possibly have done anything when they were in an even worst condition? They wouldn't even have had the cloaks to fall back on, not that having the cloaks would have prevented them from running out as we were showed. How could the Gokages, even with a bunch of help, have put up any kind of fight against Madara when they were all pretty low and in crap condition? A single clone would probably have been enough to hold them off at that point, or even that Rinnegan technique that could hit multiple targets. If it's powerful enough to send the Bijuus flying, then it would probably be powerful enough to totally take down any threat against him. That's not even factoring in Swirly Zetsu running interference and thereby creating yet another hurtle in their way.

Not for me, for everyone. Obito's persona wouldn't have been necessary. Both different scenarios and different means, they aren't even close to comparable. His statement indicated that he thought he would. That wasn't your question. Feel free to go back and check. If one has been modified, apparently yes. No, EMS allows one to use said techniques with less cost, Madara also had Kurama, and Hashirama's overly large techniques aren't exactly cheap. Which would change what I suggested why? When did the manga indicate that the eyes just popped into their heads just because of the rods. So their hax eyes don't count as augmentation? If they were being channelled through the rods as you suggest, surely the bijuus would've disappeared when the rod was removed. As I've said, the bijuus were simply being controlled through the Gedo.

* No, just for you. The majority of people have already decided that things are stupid and illogical long before this point.
* They are perfectly comparable given that half of Obito's body is made from a Zetsu and he's filled with Zetsu goo, at least partially. There isn't any reason to think that Black Zetsu wouldn't have any advantage interacting with it's own material.
* No, his statement really doesn't. It can be taken many ways. Heck, Madara could have simply intended to summon the Gedo Mazo out of him, as we actually see him doing later on.
* I asked, because you claimed that the Madara didn't expect the Alliance to win, why he would keep the Zetsus hidden instead of using them? You stated that he kept them hidden because Obito would have gotten rid of them if he didn't, and I pointed out that Obito would have had no reason to do that because he would have still considered them on his side. You claimed that was the answer to my question, but it doesn't answer anything.
* If that was the case, then Orochimaru wouldn't have had the trouble he did at handling it.
* Controlling the Kyuubi is costly too, and Hashirama had the benefit of senjutsu later on.
* You claimed that Madara "practically doubled his reserves" and I pointed that it doesn't mean that given that Hashirama likely wasn't at full.
* Again with the facetiousness.
* Seeing as they weren't making use of the eyes, not really.
* Um, they did disappear when the rods were removed.

Numbers don't matter, based on what, this is just very obvious. And I've already addressed this nonsense about the chains shutting down the bijuu; they're capable of fighting back, as has been shown, and even capable of blocking a Susanoo blade while at it. Yes, her special chakra allows her to suppress the Kyubi, but by no means does that instantly shut down the Kyuubi. It does, obviously. If it was an instant shut down, as you claim, he wouldn't have escaped. Yamato admitted to his limits. And I don't get the reference to Hashirama. He's an Uzumaki, they're known for their life force and strong chakra. Access to the Uchiha Clan to gain an eye, and free control and manipulation of a clanless child in the middle of a war-torn country are far apart, if Madara had attempted to manipulate an Uchiha from the village, someone might have noticed, particularly if they began sporting the Rinnegan. Nagato was simply an ideal candidate based on abilities and background. They are. The chains linked to the Gedo are another matter entirely, and just because every Uzumaki doesn't posses it doesn't mean it isn't distinct to the clan, every Uchiha doesn't get to sport a Sharingan, doesn't change the link between the two. So why bring up swirly Zetsu in this context? No it isn't the point, because this discussion began long before the reveal of swirly Zetsu. This began as a question of what the others were doing, and how their availability could've contributed. You questioned that from the beginning, swirly Zetsu couldn't have been the reason you decided to criticise my point because you aren't prescient. I've seen some taijutsu crack some Susanoos, and this was in reference to Madara's absorption ability, and the Sharingan didn't stop the Uchiha brothers from being affected by Tayuya's genjutsu, the Sharingan is immune to visual genjutsus, one's that attack through the auditory system are another matter entirely.

* Based on the fact that the chains are an instant win against them regardless.
* Both during the Kyuubi attack and during Naruto's fight against the Kyuubi we saw said ability.
* How exactly does it being an instant win against the Kyuubi somehow prevent Naruto, a whole different person with a separate power, from being able to escape?
* So? He was still capable of dealing with the Kyuubi's chakra several times, which is the point.
* Hashirama too was able to stop the Kyuubi using his Mokuton, with just a touch of the head, using the same technique.
* All of the Rikudou Sennin's descendants have similar.
* Free control and manipulation? All Madara did with Nagato was put in his eyes. He was shown having nothing else to do with Nagato after that.
* Obito used the chains from his body too. Also, I though I had brought this up before but had - Your argument about the name doesn't mean anything when it was Madara who gave it that name in the first place.
* The Sharingan is directly stated to be a bloodline limit, the chains have never been toted as such.
* What? I brought up Swirly Zetsu because he was the piece used by Madara to deal with the Alliance, and as far as it's been shown, didn't require any effort to bring forth.
* Yeah, weaker Susanoo versions, which is why I specifically mentioned prefect Susanoo.
* Madara employs the absorption technique beneath his Susanoo, as we saw in the fight with the Gokages.
* The Sharingan did allow them to see through it and break it, which has been the case with the majority of genjutsus employed against the Sharingan.

That isn't an ability, you've in no way connected an ability to an advancement of Susanoo. Not possibly, actually use them outside of Susanoo. Enton isn't itself a new ability, it's a nature, the manipulation and free use of Enton is the ability itself that was granted.

* It's an enton usage that wasn't called Kagutsuchi and only appears in a specific circumstance. I see no reason why I shouldn't assume it's a new ability.
* Except it is considered a new ability. The chapter where it was first shown refers to it as a new ability and later on Shi comments specifically on the power of his right MS being to manipulate the flames while his left cast Amaterasu.

Show me where I said 'thousands of thousands', please do. I said 'thousands upon thousands', which indicates several thousand. If you weren't so desperate to be right, maybe you'd avoid being so needlessly wrong and wasting so much time in the process. And I'm showing that that group was never shown to amount to more than a few hundred at that time.

* Same thing. The point is it implies far more then what was actually being claimed.
* That's kind of the pot calling the kettle black...
* And I pointed out that we are never given a full view, so claiming such amount isn't show doesn't really work.

That wasn't an opportunity. Obito was in good working order, where was the opportunity. Black Zetsu was waiting for absolutely nothing at that point. That doesn't make them a Path, a Path is pretty specific. And, so what? Does that change something? Swirly Zetsu is capable of using Hashirama's techniques. It is depending on the person's interest. Some would say that Madara's conversation wasn't completely irrelevant considering the wider context, in the same way that some would describe Obito's endless talking as relevant. Either way, there's a sizeable list of villains who talk too much. Well, everyone seemed pretty curious about the Shinju, so it was kind of asked for, and somewhat relevant to the war at hand. And Zetsu was around at that point, and has been around Rinnegan users since then. Swirly Zetsu would sort of prove my point, it would be exactly the same situation with Obito, using techniques by means of the body of another. Nope, Sai says everything's fine, almost there, andthen Rinne Tensei and Myojinmon goes pop. I'm referring to the same thoughts that are mentioned above about fighting Obito,you reference them. We've no idea when Swirly Zetsu popped up, and if the time was so long, as you point out, between Obito's defeat and Zetsu's action, why didn't Madara break out during that time? Why did he only do it after Rinne Tensei. There isn't anything to suggest that he could have escaped on his own before, the fact that he didn't speaks volumes. Except that doesn't make any sense because Hashirama executed techniques and continued in action after the rods were placed in him, so it isn't just simply rods in pressure points, otherwise Hashirama would've been down the moment those rods were in him.

* How wasn't there an opportunity? Aside from the weird assumption that Obito being in "good working order" meant he couldn't be used, what exactly would have prevented Madara from striking him down and going from there.
* Pretty sure Black Zetsu was simply waiting for Madara's command.
* Which is why I have been saying "basically" a Path.
* You commented on Madara making Obito do that was all Obito and I was pointing out that using the rods meant it was Madara too.
* Right, but my point was that Swirly Zetsu isn't in Sage Mode but is still using a technique originally referred to as one. So it clearly is possible for a technique originally referred to as one to be used outside it. I could probably have thrown in the Rasengan variations too.
* But it was irrelevant to the situation, with no other reason to be there then to fill the readers in on the information. The issue with Obito's talk was that it was repetitive, the same stuff over and over again.
* As said, there aren't even that many who have long conversations. And I don't think you can say people were curious about the Shinju when that whole thing came out of nowhere specifically at that point.
* And just being around them wouldn't teach or tell him how something is done. But Swirly Zetsu is using a technique Yamato has never used and probably wouldn't even know about, if the whole prefect Susanoo surprise is anything to go off of.
* Nothing about everything being fine.
* But that says nothing about fighting. Like I said, he could very well have meant the remove of the Gedo Mazo by summoning.
* It was implied the Alliance had been fighting him for some time, so it had to have been shortly after the Bijuus got removed and Naruto left. Not much time could have past between that point and Madara sealing the Bijuus.
* Because, as said, Madara likes to knock people's hope down, which is exactly what happen in that situation.
* The fact that he calmly accepted that situation, and didn't call upon the two Zetsus to save him suggest otherwise. It's a far harder sale to believe that Madara was in actual danger and he just accepted it because there was no other option when he has been showcasing a bunch of options since then.
* It does when one assumes that Madara allowed it. Plus, Tobirama also used a technique after being pierced.

 

[Impossibility]

No they aren't. The point, as it has always been, was that there wasn't any reason for Madara to just calmly sit there if he was truly in trouble. You claimed that he had no choice but to do that, and I clearly showed that wasn't true. There wasn't anything preventing him from making an attempt to escape or move.

He wasn't just calmly sitting there, he was calming sitting there waiting for Zetsu to help him out. And the technique was preventing him from moving, clearly, that's what it was meant to do, and by every account, it succeeded, at least until Rinne Tensei.

Him fighting Madara doesn't prove anything. Case in point, he had originally began that fight without any intent to actually kill Madara. Lack of any foreshadowing, the fact that normally contact with a Bijuu's chakra is suppose to burn as we have seen a few times, the fact that they chose such a random method of attack instead of employing the far more use of Bijuu Blasts, etc.

Yes, but the fight continued, and he had to bring him down. None of those are based in luck; bad writing maybe, but not luck.

* Unless you can show that they would have been capable of handling prefect Susanoo in a "better" condition, condition does not matter as stated.
* No, Konoha doesn't get credit. Konoha has never gotten credit for the achievements of lone ninjas. If you have an example to prove otherwise, then feel free to show it. By that logic, it would have been claimed that Konoha defeated Pain, which clearly has never been claimed.
* The praise for Sarutobi was all in Part One, which is why I said perhaps. He hasn't shown anything "better" that would suggest that he could be a match against Madara.
* Once again, no, she's not. There is nothing to base that idea on except for the fact that she took down the Kyuubi, and that was clearly thanks to her unique ability, something that won't be a factor in this situation.
* As mentioned before, the number of ninjas at Onoki and Muu's level or "better" would not have been many. The majority of of the villagers would have been useless fodder, like they always are.
* Nagato didn't fail to take down the whole village, there isn't anything to support the idea that Sasori's village wasn't a real challenge, and Deidara showed that he could have taken out a village with a single move. Also, Suna wasn't that weak, they were capable of trashing Konoha with only an army of 200.
* Which goes right back to the point of no one else being capable of really doing anything against him. If Madara could be handled just by a few powerful ninjas, then there wouldn't have been any worry when the Gokage took him on. Yet Dan believed they were incapable of defeating him and resorted to only Hashirama doing that. And this was without him even being aware of Madara's up-grades.
* What are you talking about? There isn't a single sign of anyone else with Madara.
* Mito was just like Kushina, as we were told. And in that way, they were not like regular Jinchuuriki. They were meant to merely seal the Kyuubi, not to be used as weapons like the other Jinchuuriki, which is why as mentioned, Konoha had no idea that they were in possession of the Kyuubi before the attack.
* His resolve allowed him to keep moving, which is the point. Same with Naruto, compared to the equally weaken Gaara who was incapable of moving. Against Itachi, Sasuke kept going despite being weakened, same with Deidara.
* There is nothing showing that Sarutobi could handle Onoki's attacks, or the Sandaime Raikage, or the Nidaime Mizukage. And no, all it shows was that he could kill Muu regardless of dying too. That's not handling.
* Madara wasn't even seriously and they could barely trouble him. And focus is moot, as we have seen.
* Circles? I pointed to the fact that he could do it with the Kyuubi without effort, something he did back when he didn't have even more stamina or senjutsu or chakra absorption. It makes little sense for you to argue about Madara's resources when we have never seen an actual limit for him, much less been given a limit of where he would "lose concentration or be incapable of maintaining a hold on the Bijuus". I also pointed out that Madara took on both Onoki and Muu, thereby clearly showing that he has the means to deal with Dust release. Not to mention, that according to your belief, their recent condition made them incapable of handling prefect Susanoo, so how could they possibly have done anything when they were in an even worst condition? They wouldn't even have had the cloaks to fall back on, not that having the cloaks would have prevented them from running out as we were showed. How could the Gokages, even with a bunch of help, have put up any kind of fight against Madara when they were all pretty low and in crap condition? A single clone would probably have been enough to hold them off at that point, or even that Rinnegan technique that could hit multiple targets. If it's powerful enough to send the Bijuus flying, then it would probably be powerful enough to totally take down any threat against him. That's not even factoring in Swirly Zetsu running interference and thereby creating yet another hurtle in their way.

Why, oh why bullet points? Well, we saw what they could do in better condition, and that would probably help. Obviously, someone's going to better off with a lot more chakra and better health. From the outside, yes, Konoha withstood the invasion of Pain, obviously Naruto gets credit too, but as a shinobi of Konoha. Doesn't change that Sarutobi was supposedly godly, something I myself am not entirely convinced by, but that's what the manga says. Why wouldn't Mito's abilities be of use? That would still put Konoha far ahead of those two. And those useless fodder did contribute to Obito's demise somewhat, give them credit, even if only a little bit. Well, the vllage still exists, and people were still alive, so I'd say he didn't take down the whole village And Sasori took down some random village, Konoha is one of the great villages, there's everything to say that the two challenges weren't even close. And I've already said Deidara might succeed, he's a demolition man. Suna is weaker than Konoha, we know it, and am I going to be forced to address the Sound and Suna invasion of Konoha again? The Gokages took on a modified Madara, and why should Dan's opinion be taken as something of note? If we're talking about the same battle, Madara didn't battle the Senju alone. Yes, allowed him to keep moving, but it didn't change that he was weak. Resolve didn't change that he couldn't put up much of a fight or use his techniques. The manga suggests they could handle him, taking on jinton is as simple as avoiding it. And focus isn't moot, the example you kept on bringing showed that a momentary lapse in focus was enough to create an opening. His control over Kurama was completely different, it wasn't a sealing and he didn't have to handle eight others with two jins fighting back. We know Madara has a limit. And I pointed to individuals beyond the Gokages, who seemed pretty renewed upon their return. And as I've said they would be taking on a Madara trying to seal the bijuus, obviously distracted and without the entirety of his resources, and unlike the last Madara they fought, this one dies. And Swirly Zetsu wasn't a factor when this discussion began. It began as hypothetical with the forces being able to aid the bijuus.

* No, just for you. The majority of people have already decided that things are stupid and illogical long before this point.
* They are perfectly comparable given that half of Obito's body is made from a Zetsu and he's filled with Zetsu goo, at least partially. There isn't any reason to think that Black Zetsu wouldn't have any advantage interacting with it's own material.
* No, his statement really doesn't. It can be taken many ways. Heck, Madara could have simply intended to summon the Gedo Mazo out of him, as we actually see him doing later on.
* I asked, because you claimed that the Madara didn't expect the Alliance to win, why he would keep the Zetsus hidden instead of using them? You stated that he kept them hidden because Obito would have gotten rid of them if he didn't, and I pointed out that Obito would have had no reason to do that because he would have still considered them on his side. You claimed that was the answer to my question, but it doesn't answer anything.
* If that was the case, then Orochimaru wouldn't have had the trouble he did at handling it.
* Controlling the Kyuubi is costly too, and Hashirama had the benefit of senjutsu later on.
* You claimed that Madara "practically doubled his reserves" and I pointed that it doesn't mean that given that Hashirama likely wasn't at full.
* Again with the facetiousness.
* Seeing as they weren't making use of the eyes, not really.
* Um, they did disappear when the rods were removed.

You say no, it isn't illogical, and then follow it up with things have been stupid and illogical for a long time. Ok, go with that. The entire plot suggests otherwise, the shreds remaining, suggest that it wasn't an option. If Zetsu was capable of that, Obito would've been fundamentally unnecessary. And as I said, those examples are far different. And summoning the Gedo Mazo would be Madara taking on Obito, so what's your point? At that point Madara and Obito were at odds, Madara had just tried to force him to use Rinne Tensei, of course, Obito would know that the Zetsus, spawn of Madara, weren't on his side. Obviously Oro's modifications weren't as helpful, Kabuto's worked out. Is there anything to suggest that Kurama is more costly in chakra than the benefit and chakra he provides, I'd say common sense would suggest otherwise. Yes, but Hashirama's senjustu should be far more than Madara's own reserves. So they didn't make use of the shared sight? No, Son didn't disappear, he even catches Naruto after his rod is removed, he is then dragged back into the Gedo by the Gedo's chains.

* Based on the fact that the chains are an instant win against them regardless.
* Both during the Kyuubi attack and during Naruto's fight against the Kyuubi we saw said ability.
* How exactly does it being an instant win against the Kyuubi somehow prevent Naruto, a whole different person with a separate power, from being able to escape?
* So? He was still capable of dealing with the Kyuubi's chakra several times, which is the point.
* Hashirama too was able to stop the Kyuubi using his Mokuton, with just a touch of the head, using the same technique.
* All of the Rikudou Sennin's descendants have similar.
* Free control and manipulation? All Madara did with Nagato was put in his eyes. He was shown having nothing else to do with Nagato after that.
* Obito used the chains from his body too. Also, I though I had brought this up before but had - Your argument about the name doesn't mean anything when it was Madara who gave it that name in the first place.
* The Sharingan is directly stated to be a bloodline limit, the chains have never been toted as such.
* What? I brought up Swirly Zetsu because he was the piece used by Madara to deal with the Alliance, and as far as it's been shown, didn't require any effort to bring forth.
* Yeah, weaker Susanoo versions, which is why I specifically mentioned prefect Susanoo.
* Madara employs the absorption technique beneath his Susanoo, as we saw in the fight with the Gokages.
* The Sharingan did allow them to see through it and break it, which has been the case with the majority of genjutsus employed against the Sharingan.

Once again, this instant win stuff is pretty pointless, we've seen the bijuus act with the chains in effect. Kurama's power aided, so he wasn't shut down. Not like the Uzumakis, they've been highlighted. Obito followed up. The chains are linked to the Gedo Mazo, Madara naming it doesn't change that. The chains haven't been explicitly stated to be a bloodline limit, but it's been suggested to be the case. And I've already pointed out that Swirly Zetsu doesn't factor. And we haven't had nything to suggest that Perfect Susanoo's body is stronger beyond its increase in size. When did Madara use Preta Path's absorption within Susanoo? No, they didn't see through it, they were affected by it, they were forced to use stronger genjutsus on one another to overcome it.

* It's an enton usage that wasn't called Kagutsuchi and only appears in a specific circumstance. I see no reason why I shouldn't assume it's a new ability.
* Except it is considered a new ability. The chapter where it was first shown refers to it as a new ability and later on Shi comments specifically on the power of his right MS being to manipulate the flames while his left cast Amaterasu.

Does that somehow change something? Which is what I just said, the ability granted was the manipulation of said flames, Enton is simply the name of the nature.

* Same thing. The point is it implies far more then what was actually being claimed.
* That's kind of the pot calling the kettle black...
* And I pointed out that we are never given a full view, so claiming such amount isn't show doesn't really work.

No, it isn't. You just claimed I suggest something far removed from what I did. And several thousand isn't far more than what you claimed, your prior comment only reinforces that. Nope, because I haven't blatantly rewrote your arguments in order to prove a point. And it does for me, because it was the sequence of his battle, and there isn't anything that I see that suggests more.

* How wasn't there an opportunity? Aside from the weird assumption that Obito being in "good working order" meant he couldn't be used, what exactly would have prevented Madara from striking him down and going from there.
* Pretty sure Black Zetsu was simply waiting for Madara's command.
* Which is why I have been saying "basically" a Path.
* You commented on Madara making Obito do that was all Obito and I was pointing out that using the rods meant it was Madara too.
* Right, but my point was that Swirly Zetsu isn't in Sage Mode but is still using a technique originally referred to as one. So it clearly is possible for a technique originally referred to as one to be used outside it. I could probably have thrown in the Rasengan variations too.
* But it was irrelevant to the situation, with no other reason to be there then to fill the readers in on the information. The issue with Obito's talk was that it was repetitive, the same stuff over and over again.
* As said, there aren't even that many who have long conversations. And I don't think you can say people were curious about the Shinju when that whole thing came out of nowhere specifically at that point.
* And just being around them wouldn't teach or tell him how something is done. But Swirly Zetsu is using a technique Yamato has never used and probably wouldn't even know about, if the whole prefect Susanoo surprise is anything to go off of.
* Nothing about everything being fine.
* But that says nothing about fighting. Like I said, he could very well have meant the remove of the Gedo Mazo by summoning.
* It was implied the Alliance had been fighting him for some time, so it had to have been shortly after the Bijuus got removed and Naruto left. Not much time could have past between that point and Madara sealing the Bijuus.
* Because, as said, Madara likes to knock people's hope down, which is exactly what happen in that situation.
* The fact that he calmly accepted that situation, and didn't call upon the two Zetsus to save him suggest otherwise. It's a far harder sale to believe that Madara was in actual danger and he just accepted it because there was no other option when he has been showcasing a bunch of options since then.
* It does when one assumes that Madara allowed it. Plus, Tobirama also used a technique after being pierced.

The people in between them , Obito's own abilities. He didn't expect to be necessary, so he wasn't waiting, if the command came he would act, but otherwise, he was just chilling. Basically a Path, but not. No that's not the sequence, you claimed Madara used Rinne Tensei before, and I said no, it was Obito who would've been utilising Rinne Tensei with Madara playing the role of puppeteer. Who knows what Zetsu is on? And that wouldn't change anything. I'd say that's pretty relvant, not just to us, but the shinobi around. And over and over again, no on wanted to hear it. But there are some. And it was at that point that Madara decided to explain. So Swirly Zetsu is showing that the Zetsus are quite adept at techniuqes, if he can use techniques like the ones he's been utilising, the idea that Zatsu wouldn't be able to use Rinne Tensei seems like a distant stretch. You're right he didn't say fine, he says good, good is better than fine, let's be specific. Some time means when, and you're suggestion is after the events we've been addressing. He didn't knock their hope down, they would've been just as phased if he'd done it as soon as Obito was brought down, they jumped into action. He did call on a Zetsu; see Rinne Tensei. You just described it as a simple rod in the pressure point, obviously it's more complicated that that, and Tobirama spat some needles, that wasn't a jutsu, that was him spitting, dangerous spitting, but spitting none the less.

 

[Fox666]

Is it just me or pratically everything from TV Tropes Bad Writing Index is true for Naruto?

 

[Rikudou King]

He wasn't just calmly sitting there, he was calming sitting there waiting for Zetsu to help him out. And the technique was preventing him from moving, clearly, that's what it was meant to do, and by every account, it succeeded, at least until Rinne Tensei.

Black Zetsu, who was there the entire time, and therefore could have been called upon at any point, thereby disproving the argument about him being in actual danger or having no other options available. But as shown, the technique doesn't prevent one from moving or attempting to break free.

Yes, but the fight continued, and he had to bring him down. None of those are based in luck; bad writing maybe, but not luck.

And as mentioned, there isn't anything supporting the idea that to bring Madara down, Hashirama specifically aimed for that specific scenario, thus making it on purpose and not a lucky fluke. How are they less luck-base then Madara depending upon an agent that he himself called for well before he was needed?

Why, oh why bullet points? Well, we saw what they could do in better condition, and that would probably help. Obviously, someone's going to better off with a lot more chakra and better health. From the outside, yes, Konoha withstood the invasion of Pain, obviously Naruto gets credit too, but as a shinobi of Konoha. Doesn't change that Sarutobi was supposedly godly, something I myself am not entirely convinced by, but that's what the manga says. Why wouldn't Mito's abilities be of use? That would still put Konoha far ahead of those two. And those useless fodder did contribute to Obito's demise somewhat, give them credit, even if only a little bit. Well, the vllage still exists, and people were still alive, so I'd say he didn't take down the whole village And Sasori took down some random village, Konoha is one of the great villages, there's everything to say that the two challenges weren't even close. And I've already said Deidara might succeed, he's a demolition man. Suna is weaker than Konoha, we know it, and am I going to be forced to address the Sound and Suna invasion of Konoha again? The Gokages took on a modified Madara, and why should Dan's opinion be taken as something of note? If we're talking about the same battle, Madara didn't battle the Senju alone. Yes, allowed him to keep moving, but it didn't change that he was weak. Resolve didn't change that he couldn't put up much of a fight or use his techniques. The manga suggests they could handle him, taking on jinton is as simple as avoiding it. And focus isn't moot, the example you kept on bringing showed that a momentary lapse in focus was enough to create an opening. His control over Kurama was completely different, it wasn't a sealing and he didn't have to handle eight others with two jins fighting back. We know Madara has a limit. And I pointed to individuals beyond the Gokages, who seemed pretty renewed upon their return. And as I've said they would be taking on a Madara trying to seal the bijuus, obviously distracted and without the entirety of his resources, and unlike the last Madara they fought, this one dies. And Swirly Zetsu wasn't a factor when this discussion began. It began as hypothetical with the forces being able to aid the bijuus.

* Make it easier to keep track of things.
* But even in their "better" condition, they were barely capable of even getting through a lesser Susanoo. If they had been ripping through the lesser versions like cheese, then maybe you could pull this argument, but it was taking everything they had just to get through those versions. Not to mention that we're talking about a defense that withstood multiple blasts from the complete Kyuubi. Even Onoki has never been shown doing damage like a Bijuu Blast.
* Naruto gets the credit because he was the one who defeated Pain. That's why he specifically got praised. The rest of Konoha doesn't get praise, especially when a good portion of them were killed like the fodder they were.
* And if you look, I'm not doubting what was said (I even acknowledged him living up to it a few chapters ago), what I said was that he hasn't shown anything that would allow him to be a match for Madara.
* Because they're specifically tailored for a specific opponent.
* No it really doesn't. At best, you have the same number of top tier ninjas, Tobirama and Sarutobi. It was already implied the former was incapable of doing anything against Madara even back then and the latter is questionable. The fodder's small contribution that was made only possible by stronger ninjas really doesn't help them.
* The village still exist because Naruto came and got Nagato to revive them. Except that we have been shown time and again that Konoha was only so powerful because of key characters, i.e. they were being owned by Iwa til Minato came along and singlehandedly turnt the tide of battle. Every incident of mass battle has the majority of Konoha being saved by the handful. And the manga itself shows that the difference between them wasn't that much, since as mentioned they were able to cause major devastation.
* The Gokages are five of the strongest ninjas around, stronger then any one village would have been capable of producing at a single time. And why should we not consider Dan's opinion, given that he lived during that timeframe and who had no knowledge that Madara was even more powerful?
* There's not a sign of a single Uchiha besides Madara that whole time.
* Yes, but he was not as weak as he would have been, as shown in contrast. But his resolve did keep him fighting even after he was basically out.
* Jinton has been shown to cover a massive area of effect. I don't doubt that Madara could dodge it if desired, but to do so against two users at once while still beating them down seems much even for him.
* What opening?
* The only difference there is was that Madara had automatic control over the Juubi, meaning he didn't have to waste effort on maintaining control like with the Kyuubi. The limit we saw for Madara was his previously self, and even that was basically equal to Hashirama's limit, both of them far above any other character. Current Madara has shown no limit, not to mention his means to basically extending his limit with his new abilities. Um, I know you mentioned others, which is why I pointed out that they and their help were all low and in pretty crap condition. You mentioned without the "entirely of his resources", but where is such a thing implied? There is nothing to support the idea that Madara couldn't have used all the resources he had to protect himself or the Gedo Mazo, especially since he was standing right on top of it and therefore would have still been in a position to do so. There's definitely nothing supporting the idea that Madara couldn't have made a single clone, which would have handled the Alliance fine given the previous showing. Swirly Zetsu was added in when it was shown that he was the one responsible for delaying the Alliance and thus the explanation for why they didn't interfere. Also, Madara dying is question now that he has Hashirama's regeneration.

You say no, it isn't illogical, and then follow it up with things have been stupid and illogical for a long time. Ok, go with that. The entire plot suggests otherwise, the shreds remaining, suggest that it wasn't an option. If Zetsu was capable of that, Obito would've been fundamentally unnecessary. And as I said, those examples are far different. And summoning the Gedo Mazo would be Madara taking on Obito, so what's your point? At that point Madara and Obito were at odds, Madara had just tried to force him to use Rinne Tensei, of course, Obito would know that the Zetsus, spawn of Madara, weren't on his side. Obviously Oro's modifications weren't as helpful, Kabuto's worked out. Is there anything to suggest that Kurama is more costly in chakra than the benefit and chakra he provides, I'd say common sense would suggest otherwise. Yes, but Hashirama's senjustu should be far more than Madara's own reserves. So they didn't make use of the shared sight? No, Son didn't disappear, he even catches Naruto after his rod is removed, he is then dragged back into the Gedo by the Gedo's chains.

* Um, no, I didn't say it wasn't illogical. I said that it was only for you that this thing was that, whereas the majority of people have felt that way for a long time. You can't act like that one thing would suddenly make things illogical and people question the plot when such has been going on for the whole arc. No matter which path had been taken, it still would have posed the same exact problem.
* Moot argument. Obito's involvement never made any sense.
* Obito has at least twice simply stuck Zetsu parts on and been fixed. Even Madara has done that. So the examples are comparable.
* Um, how so? We literally saw that Madara could summon it without being anywhere near Obito.
* See, I disagree. Obito's past history with them would likely make him believe they were on his side, as they "helped" him disobey Madara's "orders".
* Kabuto was taught it by the Snake Sage though, which goes toward my point.
* What suggests that the Kyuubi was benefiting chakra to Madara? The manga would suggest differently.
* Hashirama's senjutsu reserves being bigger counter the argument about the costly-ness of his techniques.
* I can only recall a single time the shared sight came up, thus my comment about them not really using the eyes.
* Well I was talking about the other Bijuus. That's true, but the Yonbi itself mentions they were just being channeled in through the rods.

Once again, this instant win stuff is pretty pointless, we've seen the bijuus act with the chains in effect. Kurama's power aided, so he wasn't shut down. Not like the Uzumakis, they've been highlighted. Obito followed up. The chains are linked to the Gedo Mazo, Madara naming it doesn't change that. The chains haven't been explicitly stated to be a bloodline limit, but it's been suggested to be the case. And I've already pointed out that Swirly Zetsu doesn't factor. And we haven't had nything to suggest that Perfect Susanoo's body is stronger beyond its increase in size. When did Madara use Preta Path's absorption within Susanoo? No, they didn't see through it, they were affected by it, they were forced to use stronger genjutsus on one another to overcome it.

* Only in a specific situation. Kushina was instantly able to stop the Kyuubi before that, she did the same during Naruto's fight with it, and Obito did so with the Gobi.
* Kyuubi's power was being absorbed, it was Naruto himself that shunshin'd away.
* Both the Senju and Uchiha clan's chakra has been mentioned as being something unique.
* Which doesn't change the original point about another host being used, especially since Obito was not only coming and going in the village as he wished, but was shown making deals with specific people in the village.
* Madara choosing to use the chains through the Gedo Mazo doesn't mean they are specifically through the Gedo Mazo. Obito used it through the Gedo Mazo too, but he was also capable of using it outside the Gedo Mazo. The difference merely goes towards where the Bijuus were wanted. Unlik Kushina who was planning on sealing the Kyuubi within herself, they were sealing the Bijuu within the Gedo Mazo first.
* But Swirly Zetsu does factor. He is the specific reason the majority of the Alliance is stuck in a single place. It's not like I had just brought him up, I've been talking about him since he first appeared.
* He did so against the Gokages.
* We've seen prefect Susanoo tank multiple Bijuu Blasts from the complete Kyuubi, power which equals more then several other Bijuu's combined.
* They did see through it, else they wouldn't have been capable of turning their heads and looking at one another to break it in the first place.

Does that somehow change something? Which is what I just said, the ability granted was the manipulation of said flames, Enton is simply the name of the nature.

* Yes, since all other examples of the manipulation have been referred to as Kagutsuchi.
* My mistake then. The overall point remains.

No, it isn't. You just claimed I suggest something far removed from what I did. And several thousand isn't far more than what you claimed, your prior comment only reinforces that. Nope, because I haven't blatantly rewrote your arguments in order to prove a point. And it does for me, because it was the sequence of his battle, and there isn't anything that I see that suggests more.

* Thousands upon thousands still implies the same as thousands of thousands, which was my issue.
* I already pointed out what number such a phrased implied to me, a million.
* My argument has been the same as it always has been, I even wrote out the actual number of 16000.
* You acknowledge the overall number of Alliance members, yet you believe the majority of ninjas that were there suddenly disappeared for no good reason...

The people in between them , Obito's own abilities. He didn't expect to be necessary, so he wasn't waiting, if the command came he would act, but otherwise, he was just chilling. Basically a Path, but not. No that's not the sequence, you claimed Madara used Rinne Tensei before, and I said no, it was Obito who would've been utilising Rinne Tensei with Madara playing the role of puppeteer. Who knows what Zetsu is on? And that wouldn't change anything. I'd say that's pretty relvant, not just to us, but the shinobi around. And over and over again, no on wanted to hear it. But there are some. And it was at that point that Madara decided to explain. So Swirly Zetsu is showing that the Zetsus are quite adept at techniuqes, if he can use techniques like the ones he's been utilising, the idea that Zatsu wouldn't be able to use Rinne Tensei seems like a distant stretch. You're right he didn't say fine, he says good, good is better than fine, let's be specific. Some time means when, and you're suggestion is after the events we've been addressing. He didn't knock their hope down, they would've been just as phased if he'd done it as soon as Obito was brought down, they jumped into action. He did call on a Zetsu; see Rinne Tensei. You just described it as a simple rod in the pressure point, obviously it's more complicated that that, and Tobirama spat some needles, that wasn't a jutsu, that was him spitting, dangerous spitting, but spitting none the less.

* What people inbetween them? And Obito's abilities are easy to get around once you know about them.
* He was told to come and wait at the battlefield, before Madara had even arrived, and acknowledges that he was made just to do what he did. What suggest that he didn't expect to be necessary.
* Which I have acknowledged, by mentioning him living being the issue. Seeing as I never referred to him as an actual Path, I'm not seeing the problem.
* And the I pointed out the usage of the rods, which thanks to Nagato, we know channels the user's power into another, that being their purpose, tells us that it wasn't all Obito.
* He neither have the marks of Sage Mode nor the size/power of Hashirama's version.
* How does it not change anything when your argument against the idea that Naruto's seal was the same was simply that Hashirama's version involved Sage Mode and I show another character using a technique that was likewise previously merely used by Hashirama in Sage Mode? I also brought up Naruto's Rasengan variations, which are just as much usable outside of Sage Mode as within.
* But it wasn't relevant to them, it has yet to play any role aside from retconing canon and giving a reason for the roots to be a danger, which could have easily been explained simply by having them go after the Kyuubi's chakra as it was doing.
* There wasn't even some because the issue was literally introduced at that point, during the very conversation being questioned. Before that, it didn't exist.
* Swirly Zetsu is using Mokuton, which we already knew he was capable of enhancing thanks to Obito's flashback. The Rinnegan is a whole different thing.
* Being specific, there was nothing about the situation that was "everything is fine/good", which was the point.
* No, my suggestion had been before these events, which explains the lack of the rest of the Alliance during that whole timeframe.
* He did knock their hope down, specifically Hashirama and Naruto.
* But if your claim that he was always in danger and had no other options available was true, then he would have called upon them before that point. Him waiting shows that he was never in any danger.
* I used the description we were given. Also, aside from the obvious comment about said needles coming from nowhere, shooting a needle out the mouth is considered a technique.