Discussion Natsu Dragneel/E.N.D Thread

[MangerDan]

ah I see, I thought that's what you was leaning towards.

But I wonder where does Natsu stand without his Igneel power. compared to Gray, Gajeel, and Laxus the power that Natsu trained for is now gone, and His book still was not open nor did Zeref hint at the book opening being an powerup. All we can do now is hope for Natsu to unlock a Etherious mode and see If this can match dragon king flame or if he can reuse king's flame in the future.

He should be back to where he was prior to revealing igneels left over power. No one noticed the huge power he had hidden under the bandages until he revealed it to zeref, so you can say everything prior to 464 was under his own power. Natsu trained for a year to be able to use the power igneels left him, but he didn't just train just for that either.

 

[DemonKing888]

He should be back to where he was prior to revealing igneels left over power. No one noticed the huge power he had hidden under the bandages until he revealed it to zeref, so you can say everything prior to 464 was under his own power. Natsu trained for a year to be able to use the power igneels left him, but he didn't just train just for that either.

But would he still have that One hit move he used to kill that war god? It was a King Flame skill.

 

[MangerDan]

But would he still have that One hit move he used to kill that war god? It was a King Flame skill.

He should because that was under his own power just because its a dfk skill it doesnt mean he needs igneels power to use them, now he could have used a bit of power from his arm, but there's no evidence he did. What we do know is that he saved that power for zeref, and the power increase he had after he unbadged his arm was significant enough to to where zeref commented on it.

 

[Mystic Mistral]

From the latest chapter, it's clear that igneel didn't 'defeat ' E.N.D cause he cared for Natsu and not because he couldn't

 

[Brandish μ]

Yeah, I wouldn't count Igneel's power anything related to Natsu. Going by that logic, someone like Wendy is stronger than Laxus... I'll soon explain what I mean in the Fairy Prediction/Discussion thread. We haven't seen Gildarts yet but I wouldn't place Natsu above him just yet.

Well if Grandine leaves Wendy with enough MP then she could be stronger than Laxus. Wendy herself commented about Natsu's one time power in ch452 as if she had no clue what Natsu's power under the bandages was. If Mashima decides Wendy and the slayers need huge powers (so they can defeat Acnologia) then Wendy can surpass someone like Laxus or a Spriggan like August. But until that time I can't think of a reason that Wendy > Laxus.

And I was talking about the Gildarts we seen so far in the series. Natsu beats Tartarus Gildarts. Because we haven't seen how strong current Gildarts is I think it's more sensible to put him below Natsu, as putting Gildarts above is a guess based on nothing.

 

[DemonKing888]

I don't know why everyone keeps acting like Gildarts just magically got stronger like all the other guild members, He was already powerful so why would he need to train like the rest.

The way I see it is like this... imagine each fairytail member as a glass cup, Their power level is water inside of this cup. To me Gildarts's cup was already filled to the top, if any water was added to his cup it would just over flow and fall out. So I think Gildarts has already reach his level cap. The man was already a beastly god at the start of the series, he's also a slightly older man who's already was in his prime while everyone else were just kids becoming adults. He's always been spriggan level to me.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Well if Grandine leaves Wendy with enough MP then she could be stronger than Laxus. Wendy herself commented about Natsu's one time power in ch452 as if she had no clue what Natsu's power under the bandages was. If Mashima decides Wendy and the slayers need huge powers (so they can defeat Acnologia) then Wendy can surpass someone like Laxus or a Spriggan like August. But until that time I can't think of a reason that Wendy > Laxus.

And I was talking about the Gildarts we seen so far in the series. Natsu beats Tartarus Gildarts. Because we haven't seen how strong current Gildarts is I think it's more sensible to put him below Natsu, as putting Gildarts above is a guess based on nothing.

Yeah, that was exactly my point with Wendy being stronger than Laxus. If we count Igneel's power as Natsu's and Wendy somehow gets the one-time powerfrom Grandeeney, she'd being stronger than Laxus in that respect. That is why I would leave out the dragon's power for now and just focus on the power of the character itself. Hiro Mashima might give the rest of the dragon slayers the power of the dragon and that would affect power scalings if you were to count it even though it is a one-time use.

I agree that Natsu beats Tartaros Gildarts. I still think Gildarts got stronger but then it's just speculation. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Brandish μ]

Yeah, that was exactly my point with Wendy being stronger than Laxus. If we count Igneel's power as Natsu's and Wendy somehow gets the one-time powerfrom Grandeeney, she'd being stronger than Laxus in that respect. That is why I would leave out the dragon's power for now and just focus on the power of the character itself. Hiro Mashima might give the rest of the dragon slayers the power of the dragon and that would affect power scalings if you were to count it even though it is a one-time use.

The thing it is unlikely to me that Grandine left anything to Wendy, because Wendy was acting like she didn't know what Natsu's power up was. Igneel left power to Natsu, and Natsu had to train to use it. Unless Wendy doesn't know that Grandeeney left some magic power inside her, I'm assuming Wendy has no Sky Dragon Queen mode.

---------- Post added at 01:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------

I don't know why everyone keeps acting like Gildarts just magically got stronger like all the other guild members, He was already powerful so why would he need to train like the rest.

The way I see it is like this... imagine each fairytail member as a glass cup, Their power level is water inside of this cup. To me Gildarts's cup was already filled to the top, if any water was added to his cup it would just over flow and fall out. So I think Gildarts has already reach his level cap. The man was already a beastly god at the start of the series, he's also a slightly older man who's already was in his prime while everyone else were just kids becoming adults. He's always been spriggan level to me.

Yea Gildarts is closest to his potential than anyone in Fairy Tail in Tartarus Arc. I don't think Mashima will give him a power up, he'll just let Gildarts go completely all out, pushed to either a high diff win or loss.

As for training I only see Gildarts doing some with Cana, and I am not sure how much of a training session that would be for Gildarts.

 

[DemonKing888]

I Agree with both your statements. Also it was never said that all 5 dragons were Kings of their own element. Igneel was the only one who was stated to be a King. Igneel always seemed to be the more superior dragon going toe to toe with Acnologia as an equal.

 

[Holt]

I believe the situation with Gildarts is more of him finally going all out and a little of him advancing in strength during the time skip. I still believe Natsu is at most third in the guild, after Gildarts and Laxus. I doubt Mashima would simply discard the Power rankings in Fairy Tail. I recall that back when Natsu showed up after the time skip and before Laxus reappeared, many said Natsu is on a completely different level and that Laxus, Gildarts and no one else would come close to him and then Laxus showed up to prove himself. Gildarts was already showing insane feats in the past despite not going all out. Most reference his battle with bluenote and while I agree that he was pushed severely in that battle, it was mostly because he fought Bluenote on physical terms while under his gravity magic but made short work of him once he used his magic type. He probably didn't use it earlier because it's hard magic to control. Mashima also had to do that in order to prevent Gildarts from looking too OP when the manga was not ready for that. Right before the time skip, Natsu was still afraid of fighting Gildarts and the latter was able to send him flying while punching him jokingly. He got a little angry and basically destroyed an island. When he does all out, I believe it would be proven that he remains Fairy Tail's Ace. Laxus comes in next and probably Natsu after that. However, Natsu, Erza, Gray and probably Mira, gajeel are about the same level but if I was to choose, Natsu would be slightly above them.

 

[DemonKing888]

I believe the situation with Gildarts is more of him finally going all out and a little of him advancing in strength during the time skip. I still believe Natsu is at most third in the guild, after Gildarts and Laxus. I doubt Mashima would simply discard the Power rankings in Fairy Tail. I recall that back when Natsu showed up after the time skip and before Laxus reappeared, many said Natsu is on a completely different level and that Laxus, Gildarts and no one else would come close to him and then Laxus showed up to prove himself. Gildarts was already showing insane feats in the past despite not going all out. Most reference his battle with bluenote and while I agree that he was pushed severely in that battle, it was mostly because he fought Bluenote on physical terms while under his gravity magic but made short work of him once he used his magic type. He probably didn't use it earlier because it's hard magic to control. Mashima also had to do that in order to prevent Gildarts from looking too OP when the manga was not ready for that. Right before the time skip, Natsu was still afraid of fighting Gildarts and the latter was able to send him flying while punching him jokingly. He got a little angry and basically destroyed an island. When he does all out, I believe it would be proven that he remains Fairy Tail's Ace. Laxus comes in next and probably Natsu after that. However, Natsu, Erza, Gray and probably Mira, gajeel are about the same level but if I was to choose, Natsu would be slightly above them.

Do you think if Natsu was to unlock an Etherious mode he would surpass Gildarts?

The biggest issue with Natsu is that he doesn't keep any permanent powerups but with this manga so close to ending I wanna see him unlock and keep something.

 

[Holt]

Do you think if Natsu was to unlock an Etherious mode he would surpass Gildarts?

The biggest issue with Natsu is that he doesn't keep any permanent powerups but with this manga so close to ending I wanna see him unlock and keep something.

He probably would. That would be his END which I believe would make him the most powerful or thereabouts in the manga. He'd probably get or unlock that soon

 

[Erza Scarlett]

Ignorance is a bliss to some that think Natsu is stronger than Laxus.

 

[kkck]

Well, using igneel's power right now I'd think natsu was pretty much the strongest being in the world. However we do have to consider it is a one time thing and from this point natsu will be relying on his own strength. I doubt his dragon force and lightning flame will be enough to match what we just saw.

As far as natsu vs acknologia, as usual the main consideration here is that natsu is a dragon slayer. As such he does not need to match the actual raw power of acknologia to beat him, he just has to be strong enough for his magic to be effective. So even with dragon king flame mode natsu probably did not come close to match acknologia or even regular dragons. But it might be enough of a push for his dragon slaying magic to be effective.

 

[Holt]

Well, using igneel's power right now I'd think natsu was pretty much the strongest being in the world. However we do have to consider it is a one time thing and from this point natsu will be relying on his own strength. I doubt his dragon force and lightning flame will be enough to match what we just saw.

As far as natsu vs acknologia, as usual the main consideration here is that natsu is a dragon slayer. As such he does not need to match the actual raw power of acknologia to beat him, he just has to be strong enough for his magic to be effective. So even with dragon king flame mode natsu probably did not come close to match acknologia or even regular dragons. But it might be enough of a push for his dragon slaying magic to be effective.

Certainly doesn't count for dragons but yes, that powerup probably made the strongest being temporarily.
Tbh, I'd say that Natsu and Laxus are both at a level where their magic can be quite effective against dragons, especially lesser ones. With Natsu using Dragon king mode, I'm sure it's enough to take on and defeat a dragon but definitely not acnologia.

 

[Brandish μ]

I Agree with both your statements. Also it was never said that all 5 dragons were Kings of their own element. Igneel was the only one who was stated to be a King. Igneel always seemed to be the more superior dragon going toe to toe with Acnologia as an equal.

Yea I said Sky Dragon Queen mode just to make an example of what type of hypothetical power Wendy would have if Grandeeney did the same thing as Igneel. Sky Dragon mode didn't really sound as cool.

---------- Post added at 05:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 AM ----------

I believe the situation with Gildarts is more of him finally going all out and a little of him advancing in strength during the time skip. I still believe Natsu is at most third in the guild, after Gildarts and Laxus. I doubt Mashima would simply discard the Power rankings in Fairy Tail. I recall that back when Natsu showed up after the time skip and before Laxus reappeared, many said Natsu is on a completely different level and that Laxus, Gildarts and no one else would come close to him and then Laxus showed up to prove himself. Gildarts was already showing insane feats in the past despite not going all out. Most reference his battle with bluenote and while I agree that he was pushed severely in that battle, it was mostly because he fought Bluenote on physical terms while under his gravity magic but made short work of him once he used his magic type. He probably didn't use it earlier because it's hard magic to control. Mashima also had to do that in order to prevent Gildarts from looking too OP when the manga was not ready for that. Right before the time skip, Natsu was still afraid of fighting Gildarts and the latter was able to send him flying while punching him jokingly. He got a little angry and basically destroyed an island. When he does all out, I believe it would be proven that he remains Fairy Tail's Ace. Laxus comes in next and probably Natsu after that. However, Natsu, Erza, Gray and probably Mira, gajeel are about the same level but if I was to choose, Natsu would be slightly above them.

Are you suggesting that Power rankings are fixed? It's not a giant leap to say Natsu is above Laxus and Gildarts. Why does Gildarts have to remain the Ace of Fairy Tail? If titles like that held true, then will any one/WS in Isghal rival or surpass the Heavenly Kings?

People just got Natsu > Laxus wrong. It is more or less a certainty that Natsu at the end of Avatar arc is stronger than Gildarts/Laxus in Tartarus arc, so if people jumped to conclusions you can see why, personally I always thought Laxus would come back OP because he had hype (unlike Gildarts). And I would like to add that just because people got Laxus wrong, doesn't mean they are with Gildarts.

Gildarts best feat is the mountain punch in Tartarus arc. Imo this shows what Gildarts is pretty much capable of. Gildarts got pissed/serious, and a mountain was destroyed as a result. It's a very impressive feat, but I'm thinking it's not as impressive as Sands of Death from Ajeel, or a 2000km tree from Warrod, or a casual nuke from Laxus.

I really can't see Natsu being only slightly above Erza. Gray/Gajeel/Mira I am not too sure on because I haven't seen them go all out yet, but we saw Erza. Is she slightly below Natsu?

 

[kkck]

Certainly doesn't count for dragons but yes, that powerup probably made the strongest being temporarily.
Tbh, I'd say that Natsu and Laxus are both at a level where their magic can be quite effective against dragons, especially lesser ones. With Natsu using Dragon king mode, I'm sure it's enough to take on and defeat a dragon but definitely not acnologia.

Why not? Think about it.... What would it take for natsu to best a springan currently? We saw how erza did against one. It took two shots from jupiter and erza using an armor that literally bends the rules of magic for her to barely pull a win. Natsu in his base form would likely be overpowered by one, easily at that. It would at least take natsu entering dragon force for him to be able to match one and even that is a boost that in the past has more or less tripled his strength. Dragon king mode went even beyond a mere springan, it allowed natsu to fight even beyond zeref's power. A 400 years old mass of magic. I think we can make a pretty strong case that dragon king mode is well beyond merely dragon force at this point. As far as zeref's strength... It's insane. At least within the realm where he can easily foderize the likes of makarov. Gildarts as well considering the strength he showed in the past seemed beneath makarov's. Odds are even a group of people like that could be beaten by zeref.

So in the context of natsu fighting acknologia with that power... You have the strongest human, perhaps ever, using dragon slaying magic against acknologia. It's natsu with a power well beyond dragon force. If this is not enough to defeat acknologia then the implication is that to defeat acknologia it would take a dragon slayer using power much greater than what natsu used. God knows what sort of non dragon slaying power could do this as it would take actually surpassing acknologia's raw power which at this point is an insane notion.

 

[Holt]

Are you suggesting that Power rankings are fixed? It's not a giant leap to say Natsu is above Laxus and Gildarts. Why does Gildarts have to remain the Ace of Fairy Tail? If titles like that held true, then will any one/WS in Isghal rival or surpass the Heavenly Kings?

People just got Natsu > Laxus wrong. It is more or less a certainty that Natsu at the end of Avatar arc is stronger than Gildarts/Laxus in Tartarus arc, so if people jumped to conclusions you can see why, personally I always thought Laxus would come back OP because he had hype (unlike Gildarts). And I would like to add that just because people got Laxus wrong, doesn't mean they are with Gildarts.

Gildarts best feat is the mountain punch in Tartarus arc. Imo this shows what Gildarts is pretty much capable of. Gildarts got pissed/serious, and a mountain was destroyed as a result. It's a very impressive feat, but I'm thinking it's not as impressive as Sands of Death from Ajeel, or a 2000km tree from Warrod, or a casual nuke from Laxus.

I really can't see Natsu being only slightly above Erza. Gray/Gajeel/Mira I am not too sure on because I haven't seen them go all out yet, but we saw Erza. Is she slightly below Natsu?

Not fixed but I'm not a seeing a drastic change in them. I say Gildarts would remain the ace of FT (imo) for now because he's a standard of power and it's not the time for Natsu to surpass him yet. This doesn't mean Natsu wouldn't surpass him, but just not right now. Of course getting the Natsu > Laxus wrong doesn't mean it certainly follows with Gildarts but I do believe that's a hint that Mashima would keep the ranking that way for now.

Well you have to consider that Gildarts best feat was done at a time that the others were not remotely close to this level. It's a common thing in manga and especially shounen. Guys like Gildarts get nerfed because the manga isn't ready to explore the level of power he is. Sure those are all impressive feats, but it doesn't mean Gildarts can't do better. Heck one can even argue that Gildarts had to scale things down in order to not hurt Natsu but like I've said many times, this is just my opinion. Natsu and Laxus are likely more powerful than the last time we saw Gildarts or they've shown more flashy/impressive stuff but when Gildarts does return, he'd be above. Gildarts ca even crush magic. This is someone who as at Tartarus could still fight Natsu barehanded and only get pushed back a bit. We've not seen him go all out and it's debatable that when he does, he's a monster both in power and his magic type.

Yes Erza is slightly below Natsu and would give him a heck of a fight. She has different sword equips to enable her hold her own against pretty much anyone. Natsu uses Magic that spans a wide range and looks flashy but that isn't always a necessity for being stronger. Natsu would have had a pretty tough time against Ajeel too and I'm quite sure that he wouldn't be able to win without using DF and even then, he's scrape the win.

Why not? Think about it.... What would it take for natsu to best a springan currently? We saw how erza did against one. It took two shots from jupiter and erza using an armor that literally bends the rules of magic for her to barely pull a win. Natsu in his base form would likely be overpowered by one, easily at that. It would at least take natsu entering dragon force for him to be able to match one and even that is a boost that in the past has more or less tripled his strength. Dragon king mode went even beyond a mere springan, it allowed natsu to fight even beyond zeref's power. A 400 years old mass of magic. I think we can make a pretty strong case that dragon king mode is well beyond merely dragon force at this point. As far as zeref's strength... It's insane. At least within the realm where he can easily foderize the likes of makarov. Gildarts as well considering the strength he showed in the past seemed beneath makarov's. Odds are even a group of people like that could be beaten by zeref.

So in the context of natsu fighting acknologia with that power... You have the strongest human, perhaps ever, using dragon slaying magic against acknologia. It's natsu with a power well beyond dragon force. If this is not enough to defeat acknologia then the implication is that to defeat acknologia it would take a dragon slayer using power much greater than what natsu used. God knows what sort of non dragon slaying power could do this as it would take actually surpassing acknologia's raw power which at this point is an insane notion.

Well I say so because Igneel fought Acnologia and lost. That was a literal dragon using dragon slaying magic as well but he still lost. He wasn't at full power however, DKM also uses residue power from Igneel not his full power. Also, Igneel on his own is far stronger than Natsu. Yet even utilizing his magic wasn't sufficient. Natsu simply used Igneels power in DKM so it would be enough to take down acnologia. He'd do certain damage but ultimately lose. One also has to consider that he's nowhere near as durable as Igneel. The latter could take some hits from Acnologia, Natsu can't do the same. DKM would probably be sufficient for most dragons, just not the likes of Acnologia.

 

[kkck]

Well I say so because Igneel fought Acnologia and lost. That was a literal dragon using dragon slaying magic as well but he still lost. He wasn't at full power however, DKM also uses residue power from Igneel not his full power. Also, Igneel on his own is far stronger than Natsu. Yet even utilizing his magic wasn't sufficient. Natsu simply used Igneels power in DKM so it would be enough to take down acnologia. He'd do certain damage but ultimately lose. One also has to consider that he's nowhere near as durable as Igneel. The latter could take some hits from Acnologia, Natsu can't do the same. DKM would probably be sufficient for most dragons, just not the likes of Acnologia.

To me the first question here would be whether dragons can even use dragon slaying magic. It's weird that they resorted to teaching this to humans to begin with if they could use it effectively themselves. If humans can best dragons with slaying magic then even weak dragons should be able to obliterate much stronger dragons. To me this suggests dragons can't use DS magic in the same way humans can. Slaying magic works by turning the user into something similar to that which they are supposed to slay. In this context it is weird that a dragon would because more dragonlike thanks to dragon slaying magic.

Dragons so far are beings with power more than immensely greater than human's. Laxus was probably among the strongest people in the world a year back and even then he failed to defeat atlasflame or zirconis. However his magic and that of the others did end up having some degree of effectiveness at least. But, can you imagine how effective DS magic would be if a being that could actually match a dragon used it? Slaying magic works by basically overcoming a difference in raw power. So far the implication is that even the stronger humans are much weaker than dragons, almost ant-like. So if under those circumstances DS magic can have some degree of effectiveness... then imagine a proper dragon using it effectively against the other. It's still more power than a human could ever use against a creature a human dragon slayer could potentially defeat.

So there are several possibilities:

1.- Acknologia and igneel were not using DS magic (or probably couldn't in the same way as humans do)
2.- They were both using dragon slaying magic (and it cancelled out I guess)
3.- Igneel did use DS but acknologia is technically not a dragon.Though if this is the case it would be weird if acknologia can be defeated at all considering we know for a fact his actual raw power is superior to that of other dragons. Although this would also imply acknologia did not use DS magic because otherwise a light tap would have reduced igneel to dust considering the effectiveness of DS magic against actual dragons.

 

[Holt]

To me the first question here would be whether dragons can even use dragon slaying magic. It's weird that they resorted to teaching this to humans to begin with if they could use it effectively themselves. If humans can best dragons with slaying magic then even weak dragons should be able to obliterate much stronger dragons. To me this suggests dragons can't use DS magic in the same way humans can. Slaying magic works by turning the user into something similar to that which they are supposed to slay. In this context it is weird that a dragon would because more dragonlike thanks to dragon slaying magic.

Dragons so far are beings with power more than immensely greater than human's. Laxus was probably among the strongest people in the world a year back and even then he failed to defeat atlasflame or zirconis. However his magic and that of the others did end up having some degree of effectiveness at least. But, can you imagine how effective DS magic would be if a being that could actually match a dragon used it? Slaying magic works by basically overcoming a difference in raw power. So far the implication is that even the stronger humans are much weaker than dragons, almost ant-like. So if under those circumstances DS magic can have some degree of effectiveness... then imagine a proper dragon using it effectively against the other. It's still more power than a human could ever use against a creature a human dragon slayer could potentially defeat.

So there are several possibilities:

1.- Acknologia and igneel were not using DS magic (or probably couldn't in the same way as humans do)
2.- They were both using dragon slaying magic (and it cancelled out I guess)
3.- Igneel did use DS but acknologia is technically not a dragon.Though if this is the case it would be weird if acknologia can be defeated at all considering we know for a fact his actual raw power is superior to that of other dragons. Although this would also imply acknologia did not use DS magic because otherwise a light tap would have reduced igneel to dust considering the effectiveness of DS magic against actual dragons.

I'd say that DS and dragons use the same type of magic except that dragons use a more superior form. The dragons basically taught their magic to humans and this was dubbed dragon slaying magic because it was power sufficient to slay a dragon considering it was a dragons power (or copy). I think it's basically the same thing. I'd say DS magic isn't exactly super effective against dragons, it's just effective. Unlike other magic, it levels the playing field so that the magic works. The actual damage done would then be equivalent to the potency or the strength of the magic used. Imo, the reason the dragons+humans side were winning was because they'd provided them with similar powers to slay dragons and thus basically outnumbered the dragon only side. Perhaps dragons spend more time fighting on a physical level rather than magic level. I believe dragon slaying simply refers to having a dragon like power. So the DS are basically mini dragons and truthfully, taking an attack from someone no matter how weak would be somewhat effective. Think of Gildarts and Natsu on tenrou. They were worlds apart but Natsu's magic still had some effect on Gildarts, just not at a level potent enough to do actual damage. I believe the DS in the past were of levels like Laxus and Natsu now or higher and thus when they paired up with dragons, they could defeat others especially if they used dragon force. Also, they could eat their elements to strength and replenish themselves so fighting alongside a dragon of similar element means more magic and strength to support.

Well either way, what Natsu was using here wasn't his own power mixed with Igneels. It was apparently strictly Igneels juice. So even if he did fight acnologia, it'd be just as though Igneel were fighting hence why I said it wouldn't suffice.