Discussion Natsu Dragneel/E.N.D Thread

[Brandish μ]

Not fixed but I'm not a seeing a drastic change in them. I say Gildarts would remain the ace of FT (imo) for now because he's a standard of power and it's not the time for Natsu to surpass him yet. This doesn't mean Natsu wouldn't surpass him, but just not right now. Of course getting the Natsu > Laxus wrong doesn't mean it certainly follows with Gildarts but I do believe that's a hint that Mashima would keep the ranking that way for now.

Well you have to consider that Gildarts best feat was done at a time that the others were not remotely close to this level. It's a common thing in manga and especially shounen. Guys like Gildarts get nerfed because the manga isn't ready to explore the level of power he is. Sure those are all impressive feats, but it doesn't mean Gildarts can't do better. Heck one can even argue that Gildarts had to scale things down in order to not hurt Natsu but like I've said many times, this is just my opinion. Natsu and Laxus are likely more powerful than the last time we saw Gildarts or they've shown more flashy/impressive stuff but when Gildarts does return, he'd be above. Gildarts ca even crush magic. This is someone who as at Tartarus could still fight Natsu barehanded and only get pushed back a bit. We've not seen him go all out and it's debatable that when he does, he's a monster both in power and his magic type.

Yes Erza is slightly below Natsu and would give him a heck of a fight. She has different sword equips to enable her hold her own against pretty much anyone. Natsu uses Magic that spans a wide range and looks flashy but that isn't always a necessity for being stronger. Natsu would have had a pretty tough time against Ajeel too and I'm quite sure that he wouldn't be able to win without using DF and even then, he's scrape the win.

What is this Gildarts standard for power then? I mean if it's the mountain punch, then hasn't Laxus and Natsu passed that? And given we're in the latter stages of the manga, with the dragon king festival fast approaching, when would do you expect the right time for Natsu to supass Gildarts would be? It seemed to me like Mashima dropped a hint of the changing of the guard when Natsu beat Bluenote.

I understand the concept of nerfing and I don't overly disagree with what you say, that Gildarts was held back from going all out. It's pretty much fan based hype though really to expect Gildarts to be above Laxus though imo, it would put Gildarts in August territory. Do you think Gildarts is superior to God Serena, who was supposedly the number 1 mage in Isghal? I don't really make a big fuss about those titles, they not accurate unless they're constantly assessed. But if Makarov thought Jura might be a match for Gildarts then maybe Gildarts is nowhere near the level of God Serena, and by extension the Spriggan 12. My ranking for Gildarts is below Hades and above Jellal (as of Tartarus).

I do believe Erza fought well against Ajeel and it was a good battle. And I will say that Natsu hasn't been fully tested so I'm actually using more of a guess to say he is clearly ahead of Erza. But I think base Natsu would mid-diff Erza in a fight without a great deal of confidence. How would Erza handle a flame dragon kings roar? Or the same roar against Bluenote? Ajeel could beat base Natsu, either way it's a very tough fight for the winner. But if Natsu is pushing the fight to extreme difficulty in base, he should own Ajeel in Dragon Force (previous dragon force use Natsu went from being outclassed by etherious Mard Geer to over-powering him for a short time).

However I disagree about the magic types. Just because Erza has versatility doesn't mean she can hold her own against almost anyone, if she's outclassed too much in terms of power she loses. Erza can't beat people who are far better than her, she didn't solo Ajeel, she just received a tactical advantage but even so it was not enough to bridge the gap. The same goes for Natsu's magic. Being 'flashy' and having a large range doesn't mean he can hold his own against almost anyone, if he's outclassed too much he loses. His attacks are just larger than Erza's. Imo the amount of power trumps the quality of power, unless explicitly stated or shown to differently in the manga (like devil slayer magic v demons being a quality that trumps quantity). Quality is also subjective for the most part, so hype can be made out of nothing. Even how you said 'flashy', I get that something can look flash but not be strong like with Jackal's curses, but then you get Igneel who uses pretty much the same 'flashy' moves as Natsu.

 

[kkck]

I'd say that DS and dragons use the same type of magic except that dragons use a more superior form. The dragons basically taught their magic to humans and this was dubbed dragon slaying magic because it was power sufficient to slay a dragon considering it was a dragons power (or copy). I think it's basically the same thing. I'd say DS magic isn't exactly super effective against dragons, it's just effective. Unlike other magic, it levels the playing field so that the magic works. The actual damage done would then be equivalent to the potency or the strength of the magic used. Imo, the reason the dragons+humans side were winning was because they'd provided them with similar powers to slay dragons and thus basically outnumbered the dragon only side. Perhaps dragons spend more time fighting on a physical level rather than magic level. I believe dragon slaying simply refers to having a dragon like power. So the DS are basically mini dragons and truthfully, taking an attack from someone no matter how weak would be somewhat effective. Think of Gildarts and Natsu on tenrou. They were worlds apart but Natsu's magic still had some effect on Gildarts, just not at a level potent enough to do actual damage. I believe the DS in the past were of levels like Laxus and Natsu now or higher and thus when they paired up with dragons, they could defeat others especially if they used dragon force. Also, they could eat their elements to strength and replenish themselves so fighting alongside a dragon of similar element means more magic and strength to support.

Well either way, what Natsu was using here wasn't his own power mixed with Igneels. It was apparently strictly Igneels juice. So even if he did fight acnologia, it'd be just as though Igneel were fighting hence why I said it wouldn't suffice.

I think the manga has given enough ground to support the idea that DS magic works by giving the user magic that is effective in spite of a difference in power rather than DS matching dragons in terms of raw power. We saw how mages fared against dragons during the 7 dragons arc. Makarov punched atlasflame with all his might and the guy did not even kinda flinch. In turn natsu and the other guys were able to cause actual pain to the dragons. And even then, at that point natsu would have been nothing next to makarov. We saw natsu fighting gildarts and while he did improve the difference was made more than clear. I am not 100% clear on whether natsu was using lightning flame there though.

We even see this when grey is fighting mard geer. Grey did not have the power to actually land a hit on his own. Mard geer was in all regards immensely superior to grey. However a single git from grey ended mard geer. And grey easily foderized the demon that was fighting gajeel with devil slayer magic. Even though the demon itself was someone that natsu even with lightning flame could not outright defeat. Slayer magic goes beyond "super effective". When it properly works it allows you to obliterate beings whose powers compare to your own.

 

[Holt]

What is this Gildarts standard for power then? I mean if it's the mountain punch, then hasn't Laxus and Natsu passed that? And given we're in the latter stages of the manga, with the dragon king festival fast approaching, when would do you expect the right time for Natsu to supass Gildarts would be? It seemed to me like Mashima dropped a hint of the changing of the guard when Natsu beat Bluenote.

I understand the concept of nerfing and I don't overly disagree with what you say, that Gildarts was held back from going all out. It's pretty much fan based hype though really to expect Gildarts to be above Laxus though imo, it would put Gildarts in August territory. Do you think Gildarts is superior to God Serena, who was supposedly the number 1 mage in Isghal? I don't really make a big fuss about those titles, they not accurate unless they're constantly assessed. But if Makarov thought Jura might be a match for Gildarts then maybe Gildarts is nowhere near the level of God Serena, and by extension the Spriggan 12. My ranking for Gildarts is below Hades and above Jellal (as of Tartarus).

I do believe Erza fought well against Ajeel and it was a good battle. And I will say that Natsu hasn't been fully tested so I'm actually using more of a guess to say he is clearly ahead of Erza. But I think base Natsu would mid-diff Erza in a fight without a great deal of confidence. How would Erza handle a flame dragon kings roar? Or the same roar against Bluenote? Ajeel could beat base Natsu, either way it's a very tough fight for the winner. But if Natsu is pushing the fight to extreme difficulty in base, he should own Ajeel in Dragon Force (previous dragon force use Natsu went from being outclassed by etherious Mard Geer to over-powering him for a short time).

However I disagree about the magic types. Just because Erza has versatility doesn't mean she can hold her own against almost anyone, if she's outclassed too much in terms of power she loses. Erza can't beat people who are far better than her, she didn't solo Ajeel, she just received a tactical advantage but even so it was not enough to bridge the gap. The same goes for Natsu's magic. Being 'flashy' and having a large range doesn't mean he can hold his own against almost anyone, if he's outclassed too much he loses. His attacks are just larger than Erza's. Imo the amount of power trumps the quality of power, unless explicitly stated or shown to differently in the manga (like devil slayer magic v demons being a quality that trumps quantity). Quality is also subjective for the most part, so hype can be made out of nothing. Even how you said 'flashy', I get that something can look flash but not be strong like with Jackal's curses, but then you get Igneel who uses pretty much the same 'flashy' moves as Natsu.

Standard of power being that he was fairy tail's ace and the top guy. His mountain crush feat like I've said was impressive but Natsu and Laxus have shown things more impressive, however, it says a lot when we're comparing their feats to something Gildarts did a year ago and it's still pretty close. Well Zeref isn't going down now and Acnologia hasn't even showed up. Frankly, I doubt Natsu on his own would be able to surpass Gildarts. He'd do so when he unlocks his END power but that again is speculation. I'm not stating any of these as facts. We can't say anything about that really. We don't even know what Serena can do. We know for a fact the the WS aren't exactly comprised of the strongest mages. I view Serena as the strongest within the wizard saints. Outside that, there's nothing to base his actual level on. Makarov didn't think Jura would be a match for Gildarts, he thought he would be a difficult opponent even for Gildarts. There's a level one gets to where he can hardly get fodderized. Also, I'm not going to place much on Makarov's words. He never said Jura would best Gildarts just that even Gildarts would have trouble with him, which isn't surprising. Also, he felt that Laxus stood no chance at all against Jura so what's to say he didn't underestimate Gildarts? I mean, how much would Makarov even know about Gildarts? The dude is 99% absent from the guild and most times people aren't around when he fights. When last would Makarov even have seen him in a fight?

No the point was that Erza having different sword equips enable her to stand a chance against pretty much enemy. She's one person that's hard to find a weakness on except you take away her ability to use requip. Just like with the Wahl robots, an opposite element is bound to be troublesome. With Erza, she can cope with fighting almost any element or magic type. She even has requip to bend the laws of magic/physics or tank etc. That's not to say that Erza can solo anyone but her performance against Ajeel is pretty much how Natsu would have fared. Now if he used dragon force, he could possibly overpower his enemy, however, when he's forced to use his ultimate power available, that already indicated that's a high level or difficult battle. Natsu can't beat Erza in his base mode. That's what makes him only slightly above her. Also, you missed my point. Natsu's attack being long range made him a better opponent against Bluenote or fare better. See Gildarts primarily fights hand to hand. We've seen this numerous times. He went hand to hand with Bluenote while under his gravity and this is what made them seem like equals. When Gildarts brought his magic into play, he sent Bluenote flying. For Natsu, he never had to get in close with Bluenote. If you noticed, when Bluenote tried to attack, Natsu leapt out of reach and then proceeded then took out Bluenote. I'm not demeaning his feats in handling Bluenote in far less time and a lot more efficient that Gildarts did but his magic did make things easier. The battle wouldn't have been the same if Natsu decided to exchange blows with Bluenote while under his gravity instead of taking him out with a wide attack and I'm not talking about blows coupled with his fire magic as usual. I'm talking about blows with his mere strength like Gildarts did. So yes, it's not just about the size but having a powerful magic that offers range certainly helps.

For Erza being able to deal with a roar from Natsu, she has flame empress armor that can reduce flame attacks by 50% or the adamantine armor and don't forget she's a hell of a tank herself. She has attacks that can use water as well. The point was that her requip give her vast options that can deal with pretty much any magic she comes against. She hardly gets outclassed in a fight and Natsu isn't at a level where he can do that except he uses his strongest power.

I think the manga has given enough ground to support the idea that DS magic works by giving the user magic that is effective in spite of a difference in power rather than DS matching dragons in terms of raw power. We saw how mages fared against dragons during the 7 dragons arc. Makarov punched atlasflame with all his might and the guy did not even kinda flinch. In turn natsu and the other guys were able to cause actual pain to the dragons. And even then, at that point natsu would have been nothing next to makarov. We saw natsu fighting gildarts and while he did improve the difference was made more than clear. I am not 100% clear on whether natsu was using lightning flame there though.

We even see this when grey is fighting mard geer. Grey did not have the power to actually land a hit on his own. Mard geer was in all regards immensely superior to grey. However a single git from grey ended mard geer. And grey easily foderized the demon that was fighting gajeel with devil slayer magic. Even though the demon itself was someone that natsu even with lightning flame could not outright defeat. Slayer magic goes beyond "super effective". When it properly works it allows you to obliterate beings whose powers compare to your own.

Well yes, but dragons and demons are very different. The FT mages could defeat the demons without DS magic, even overpower them at times. For dragons, the most powerful guys threw a punch of attacks and were ineffective. The gap is much larger. Sure DS magic is quite effective despite the power gap but there's a bit of difference between it being effective and it being able to do proper damage. DS magic levels the playing field imo, but doesn't negate the power difference. That's why the DS in GMG were just about as helpless as the other mages. Yes their magic worked, but it was far from enough to even make the dragons reconsider them. For Gray, he would have ultimately lost to Mard Geer even though the power gap wasn't as insane as a dragon's would have been. Heck Mard Geer took on DF Natsu and Gray using DeS magic and they barely won.

I mean, to be fair, if dragons fought each other, I'm pretty sure they could do significant harm to themselves. Probably a lot more than what majority of DS can do so even though DS magic would be effective enough to hurt dragons, there'd still be a long way to actually being able to properly harm or much less damage them. Though like I said, what Natsu used there was Igneel's power. He substituted himself for Igneel there basically so I doubt it'd would've been enough to take out acnologia.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I agree with [USER]Holt[/USER] on most of his points. Dragon King Flame Mode was solely Igneel's power and did not consist of Natsu's magic whatsoever. Like I've said many times, we have got to stop using the Dragon King Flame Mode as a reference to Natsu's own power.

First of all, it seems like either everyone is once again hyping Natsu's power or underestimating Acnologia's power. There is absolutely no way that Natsu can beat Acnologia at this point. He can't even defeat all 12 Spriggans by himself, let alone a dragon slayer that has slayed numerous dragons. Igneel's power won't help Natsu in this case as it is only a part of his full power and it is time limited. Honestly, I don't even think Natsu can match 1 Spriggan like August and if he does, it would push him to his limits.

Second of all, dragons are obviously stronger than dragon slayers. Yes, the dragon slayers were taught magic to specifically fight against dragons but in order for damage to be inflicted, one's raw power must be exceptionally high. Dragons are essentially teaching dragon slayers their own type of magic. How can they teach somebody magic that they don't possess? Therefore, there is no human that can match a dragon. For those that said the dragon slayers dealt damage or caused "pain" to those dragons of the GMG Arc, you got it all wrong. In fact, I saw none of the dragon slayers affecting any dragon. Even Natsu couldn't deal any damage to Motherglare or Atlas Flame. Neither could Laxus on Zirconis let alone Sting, Rogue, Gajeel, Wendy, and Cobra.

Lastly, we cannot assume Natsu is stronger than Gildarts or Laxus. It's the same vice versa. One thing we know is that Gildarts is extremely powerful. I stopped comparing Natsu and Laxus to Tartaros Gildarts a long time ago as that was the past. I'm not saying Gildarts is stronger than Natsu and Laxus as a fact, but the chances of that happening is more likely. If Gildarts trained during the timeskip, which I believe he did, it would make sense that he is still stronger than Natsu and Laxus because there was already a significant difference prior to the training. As for God Serena, I wouldn't place him higher than Gildarts, Natsu, or Laxus. God Serena may be #1 Mage but it is only out of the 10 Wizard Saints. The power of Fairy Tail is a lot stronger especially when we are talking about the Ace of FT, SS-Class, S-Class, and other notable members of FT. As for Hades, I think Gildarts actually has a chance of beating him.

 

[Brandish μ]

Standard of power being that he was fairy tail's ace and the top guy. His mountain crush feat like I've said was impressive but Natsu and Laxus have shown things more impressive, however, it says a lot when we're comparing their feats to something Gildarts did a year ago and it's still pretty close. Well Zeref isn't going down now and Acnologia hasn't even showed up. Frankly, I doubt Natsu on his own would be able to surpass Gildarts. He'd do so when he unlocks his END power but that again is speculation. I'm not stating any of these as facts.

Yes comparing to Gildarts does in fact show that Gildarts as of Tartarus was strong as hell. It's just his feats have been overcome, with similar or less ease (particularly with Laxus). I believe Natsu in base has already surpassed Gildarts, there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Am I close minded about this? No, if Mashima brings Gildarts back and shows he's stronger then he is.

We can't say anything about that really. We don't even know what Serena can do. We know for a fact the the WS aren't exactly comprised of the strongest mages. I view Serena as the strongest within the wizard saints. Outside that, there's nothing to base his actual level on.

Hyberion said that God Serena was the greatest wizard on the continent. Hyberion doesn't have to be correct, nor does he know everything. It is easiest to assume Serena is above Gildarts. I do believe the Heavenly Kings deserve some kind of separation from the Wizard Saints, and by extension they are likely the top 4 wizards in Isghal at the time this status was given out.

Makarov didn't think Jura would be a match for Gildarts, he thought he would be a difficult opponent even for Gildarts. There's a level one gets to where he can hardly get fodderized. Also, I'm not going to place much on Makarov's words. He never said Jura would best Gildarts just that even Gildarts would have trouble with him, which isn't surprising. Also, he felt that Laxus stood no chance at all against Jura so what's to say he didn't underestimate Gildarts? I mean, how much would Makarov even know about Gildarts? The dude is 99% absent from the guild and most times people aren't around when he fights. When last would Makarov even have seen him in a fight?

The translation I read was Jura was a match for Gildarts. I threw up this statement to see what you thought about it. I generally side with your view on this because it's only a character statement, but even so it is information, just not as accurate as seeing what they can do. Jura didn't really show anything that puts him on the level of Gildarts who can flatten a mountain, so since then I've made a clear distinction between what Jura is capable of, and what Gildarts is capable of.

No the point was that Erza having different sword equips enable her to stand a chance against pretty much enemy. She's one person that's hard to find a weakness on except you take away her ability to use requip. Just like with the Wahl robots, an opposite element is bound to be troublesome. With Erza, she can cope with fighting almost any element or magic type.

How is what you said here different from versatility? She can expose weaknesses, not to the level of precision Wahl can but she'll figure it out thru the course of a fight. It's a nice advantage, gives her a fighting chance against opponents better than her I will agree to that. Just depends on how much stronger they are. It wouldn't allow her to fight evenly with Laxus in Tartarus arc imo, as an example.

She even has requip to bend the laws of magic/physics or tank etc. That's not to say that Erza can solo anyone but her performance against Ajeel is pretty much how Natsu would have fared.

So basically if Natsu got serious and used his full repertoire in base he should be able to outclass Erza? Ajeel accomplished this the second he activated Sandstorm, as spell Erza pretty much acknowledged as beyond her. Without Jupiter Erza is dead. If Ajeel wasn't arrogant, and there were no distractions or interference (this also includes Marin) Ajeel wins this fight and I say mid-diff is about right. Natsu in base would beat Erza with similar difficulty imo.

Now if he used dragon force, he could possibly overpower his enemy, however, when he's forced to use his ultimate power available, that already indicated that's a high level or difficult battle. Natsu can't beat Erza in his base mode.

If Natsu's pushed to dragon force I do believe it's a high or greater difficulty for base Natsu. But if you're considering dragon force as a part of Natsu's ability then it is only high difficulty if dragon force is high difficulty. Hypothetical scenario - Lets say Erza can push base Natsu into using DF, then Natsu stomps Erza quickly in DF. What difficulty would this be relative to say a fight with August who possibly outclasses base Natsu, and then makes a mid to high diff fight for DF Natsu?

What has Erza done to show she can beat base Natsu? He's showing Spriggan level capabilities (pre-Zeref), Erza did not.

That's what makes him only slightly above her. Also, you missed my point. Natsu's attack being long range made him a better opponent against Bluenote or fare better.

So why did you say 'flashy'? That made me interpret your statements as demeaning Natsu's power just because of how it looks. I'll take it from your word here that range allows Natsu to do better.

See Gildarts primarily fights hand to hand. We've seen this numerous times. He went hand to hand with Bluenote while under his gravity and this is what made them seem like equals. When Gildarts brought his magic into play, he sent Bluenote flying. For Natsu, he never had to get in close with Bluenote. If you noticed, when Bluenote tried to attack, Natsu leapt out of reach and then proceeded then took out Bluenote. I'm not demeaning his feats in handling Bluenote in far less time and a lot more efficient that Gildarts did but his magic did make things easier. The battle wouldn't have been the same if Natsu decided to exchange blows with Bluenote while under his gravity instead of taking him out with a wide attack and I'm not talking about blows coupled with his fire magic as usual. I'm talking about blows with his mere strength like Gildarts did. So yes, it's not just about the size but having a powerful magic that offers range certainly helps.

Bluenotes gravity had the same effect on Gildarts as it did Natsu; they could both stand in it. Going on that, Natsu's strength is possibly at Gildarts level, so maybe with just fists Natsu could fight evenly with Bluenote?

Natsu is also holding Chelia so the roar was used. Generally Natsu uses his fists so using a roar was just something he could do. If he used his DS magic with his fist he could pull off an Empyrean of his own.

For Erza being able to deal with a roar from Natsu, she has flame empress armor that can reduce flame attacks by 50% or the adamantine armor and don't forget she's a hell of a tank herself. She has attacks that can use water as well. The point was that her requip give her vast options that can deal with pretty much any magic she comes against. She hardly gets outclassed in a fight and Natsu isn't at a level where he can do that except he uses his strongest power.

Yea she can reduce all flames by 50%. Let's assume that this 50% would hold true against any power level, even Igneel's. If Natsu's roar against Bluenote can oneshot him, it's likely going to do the same to Erza or give her damage that is close to a knockout. So Natsu just uses 2 roars. Adamantine defence was wrecked by Kagura at GMG, doubt it's so strong now that it stops a roar. Her water attacks would be handy if they are also powerful enough, at best they could cut through some of Natsu's flames. Nakagami is probably only chance Erza has, and even then it puts her out of commission. I am not completely sold on Nakagami being able to bend the laws of magic when I don't even know what the laws of magic are, I just think of this armour as a small time power up that pushes her up a tier. If she can bend the laws of all magic regardless of power level with this armour I would say she should be a solid contributor against Zeref or Acnologia.

---------- Post added at 03:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 PM ----------

I agree with [USER]Holt[/USER] on most of his points. Dragon King Flame Mode was solely Igneel's power and did not consist of Natsu's magic whatsoever. Like I've said many times, we have got to stop using the Dragon King Flame Mode as a reference to Natsu's own power.

I do agree that everything after he takes the bandages off should be considered as different from base Natsu. That is the whole fight with Zeref. I still give Natsu the ability to use flame dragon king spells until it's shown he can't. He did use lightning flame dragon moves after Laxus magic power was spent.

First of all, it seems like either everyone is once again hyping Natsu's power or underestimating Acnologia's power. There is absolutely no way that Natsu can beat Acnologia at this point. He can't even defeat all 12 Spriggans by himself, let alone a dragon slayer that has slayed numerous dragons. Igneel's power won't help Natsu in this case as it is only a part of his full power and it is time limited. Honestly, I don't even think Natsu can match 1 Spriggan like August and if he does, it would push him to his limits.

I highly doubt Natsu reaches a level that surpasses Acnologia. 5 dragon slayers were sent, not 1. Natsu will be the strongest that I have no doubt.

Second of all, dragons are obviously stronger than dragon slayers. Yes, the dragon slayers were taught magic to specifically fight against dragons but in order for damage to be inflicted, one's raw power must be exceptionally high. Dragons are essentially teaching dragon slayers their own type of magic. How can they teach somebody magic that they don't possess? Therefore, there is no human that can match a dragon. For those that said the dragon slayers dealt damage or caused "pain" to those dragons of the GMG Arc, you got it all wrong. In fact, I saw none of the dragon slayers affecting any dragon. Even Natsu couldn't deal any damage to Motherglare or Atlas Flame. Neither could Laxus on Zirconis let alone Sting, Rogue, Gajeel, Wendy, and Cobra.

Technically speaking Acnologia is a human, and dragon slayers of the past killed dragons. So with DS magic they can obtain power that can overcome a dragon through dragon force. It depends on just how strong the slayer is, someone like Acnologia back in the day killed dragons, while others like Wendy don't seem too powerful in dragon force, DF Sting/Rogue at GMG got beaten by Natsu. I do believe Wendy was able to hurt Zilconis (in a very small way).

Lastly, we cannot assume Natsu is stronger than Gildarts or Laxus. It's the same vice versa. One thing we know is that Gildarts is extremely powerful. I stopped comparing Natsu and Laxus to Tartaros Gildarts a long time ago as that was the past. I'm not saying Gildarts is stronger than Natsu and Laxus as a fact, but the chances of that happening is more likely. If Gildarts trained during the timeskip, which I believe he did, it would make sense that he is still stronger than Natsu and Laxus because there was already a significant difference prior to the training. As for God Serena, I wouldn't place him higher than Gildarts, Natsu, or Laxus. God Serena may be #1 Mage but it is only out of the 10 Wizard Saints. The power of Fairy Tail is a lot stronger especially when we are talking about the Ace of FT, SS-Class, S-Class, and other notable members of FT. As for Hades, I think Gildarts actually has a chance of beating him.

It's fine to have an opinion that Gildarts is stronger. I just prefer to stick with what is shown until proven otherwise, unless there is some kind of hype or reason. At the end of the day it is an opinion. I have an opinion that Jellal will be stronger than Gildarts when they both appear in this arc. But if I was comparing them to Laxus/Natsu I would use Jellal/Gildarts Tartarus levels otherwise I would be making stuff up.

God Serena according to Hyberion is the greatest wizard in Isghal at some point in time, Fairy Tail resides within this continent. This is a far better accolade than an ace/SS/S class of any guild. But these are just titles. Natsu is not an S class but Mira is. Laxus is not a wizard saint but he beat Jura. Makarov reveres the power of the heavenly kings of Isghal, more so than he would Gildarts imo.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I do agree that everything after he takes the bandages off should be considered as different from base Natsu. That is the whole fight with Zeref. I still give Natsu the ability to use flame dragon king spells until it's shown he can't. He did use lightning flame dragon moves after Laxus magic power was spent.



I highly doubt Natsu reaches a level that surpasses Acnologia. 5 dragon slayers were sent, not 1. Natsu will be the strongest that I have no doubt.



Technically speaking Acnologia is a human, and dragon slayers of the past killed dragons. So with DS magic they can obtain power that can overcome a dragon through dragon force. It depends on just how strong the slayer is, someone like Acnologia back in the day killed dragons, while others like Wendy don't seem too powerful in dragon force, DF Sting/Rogue at GMG got beaten by Natsu. I do believe Wendy was able to hurt Zilconis (in a very small way).



It's fine to have an opinion that Gildarts is stronger. I just prefer to stick with what is shown until proven otherwise, unless there is some kind of hype or reason. At the end of the day it is an opinion. I have an opinion that Jellal will be stronger than Gildarts when they both appear in this arc. But if I was comparing them to Laxus/Natsu I would use Jellal/Gildarts Tartarus levels otherwise I would be making stuff up.

God Serena according to Hyberion is the greatest wizard in Isghal at some point in time, Fairy Tail resides within this continent. This is a far better accolade than an ace/SS/S class of any guild. But these are just titles. Natsu is not an S class but Mira is. Laxus is not a wizard saint but he beat Jura. Makarov reveres the power of the heavenly kings of Isghal, more so than he would Gildarts imo.

Fair enough. We are each entitled to our own beliefs. I acknowledge your statement about Acnologia and the dragon slayers in the past being able to beat dragons. It's hard for me to analyze the past which is why I avoided that scenario as there are so many unknown factors; however, until I get more information about it, then you've got a point for now. As for Gildarts, I actually believe he is way above Makarov in overall strength let alone raw power. I know you didn't mention anything about it in your post, but I'm just setting the record straight according to my own belief to show how high I actually rank Gildarts.

 

[Axiomus]

I don't think the Dragon King's spells can be attributed to Igneel's power. Natsu was able to use Flame Dragon King spells without ever removing those bandages. Nobody was able to detect this power from Natsu when he had the bandages on, but as soon as he took it off Zeref could immediately feel its power. Happy also made a passing comment on the fact that Natsu was going to use the power so early on against Zeref. If Natsu was already using the power against the Alvarez troops, wouldn't he have made the comment then? It kind of goes against the "I can only use this power once" if it turns out Natsu can just use portions of it at his choosing. He has enough power for one more attack, but it doesn't seem like he can stop once he's started using the power because he's afraid it'll run out. There were times where his arm would act up against the Spriggan 12, but Natsu decided to hold back. Why would he hold back against the Spriggan 12, but use his power against the regular Alvarez Troops and the war god? Natsu could probably oneshot Ajeel or Brandish with that punch that sent Zeref through a mountain. It doesn't add up.

Natsu was punching Zeref with Igneel's power before entering Flame Dragon King Mode for his final attack. The attacks he used before were with Igneel's power, but they were not really stated to be flame dragon king spells. It was only with his final attack that he entered Flame Dragon King Mode and threw a punch. Those first few attacks may not have been Flame Dragon King spells. At least, it would be odd to be using Flame Dragon King spells the entire fight...and then declare you are entering Flame Dragon King Mode half-way through it.

I don't think Natsu is anywhere near Acnologia's level. Let's face it: Acnologia killed Igneel, and Natsu's only got whatever power Igneel left him when he died. That's not exactly that encouraging when you think about it. I do think Natsu surpassed Tenrou Gildarts though. That hit he used to oneshot Bluenote was his own power, and he definitely took out Bluenote far easier than Gildarts did.

---------- Post added at 02:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 AM ----------

I think the manga has given enough ground to support the idea that DS magic works by giving the user magic that is effective in spite of a difference in power rather than DS matching dragons in terms of raw power. We saw how mages fared against dragons during the 7 dragons arc. Makarov punched atlasflame with all his might and the guy did not even kinda flinch. In turn natsu and the other guys were able to cause actual pain to the dragons. And even then, at that point natsu would have been nothing next to makarov. We saw natsu fighting gildarts and while he did improve the difference was made more than clear. I am not 100% clear on whether natsu was using lightning flame there though.

We even see this when grey is fighting mard geer. Grey did not have the power to actually land a hit on his own. Mard geer was in all regards immensely superior to grey. However a single git from grey ended mard geer. And grey easily foderized the demon that was fighting gajeel with devil slayer magic. Even though the demon itself was someone that natsu even with lightning flame could not outright defeat. Slayer magic goes beyond "super effective". When it properly works it allows you to obliterate beings whose powers compare to your own.

I disagree. It doesn't really make sense if you think about it from a dragon's perspective. Dragons are entirely capable of using magic. They have magic to heal, talk with spirits, telepathy, make clothing disappear, and even seal themselves inside someone else. The dragons know enough about dragon slaying magic to teach it. In fact, before they taught the humans they were the only ones who even had dragon slayer magic. If a dragon knew of an effective magic to use against other dragons, they would use it. There's no real reason they couldn't or wouldn't. Dragons can also use dragon slayer magic, and their dragon slayer magic would be more powerful than the human's. A human would have no advantage over a dragon.

It's no coincidence that Acnologia, the strongest dragon slayer, literally turns into a dragon to fight. Acnologia wouldn't be able to slay Igneel if he wasn't able to fight on an even level with Igneel. He's also the only dragon slayer we've seen actually take down a dragon. Dragon Force, the strongest form available to dragon slayers, gives you dragon-like properties. Dragon Force is described by pretty much everyone to be "wielding the power of a dragon". I believe it was even stated that to slay a dragon you must have power that is on the same level as a dragon, and that's what makes a dragon slayer.

The fact that Makarov couldn't harm Atlas Flame but weaker dragon slayers could, implies that dragons have a natural resistance to magic. However, dragons wouldn't have evolved natural immunity to their own magic. Since dragon slayers are essentially using dragon magic, the dragons don't have this resistance against them either. It doesn't imply that a dragon would get wrecked by dragon slayers weaker than themselves, not in the same way demon slayer magic wrecks demons. That's simply not what happened. Even with dragon slayer magic, the only dragon that managed to be knocked out was Motherglare. That was only achieved by Natsu taking some of Atlas Flame's power and then working together.

 

[Holt]

Yes comparing to Gildarts does in fact show that Gildarts as of Tartarus was strong as hell. It's just his feats have been overcome, with similar or less ease (particularly with Laxus). I believe Natsu in base has already surpassed Gildarts, there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Am I close minded about this? No, if Mashima brings Gildarts back and shows he's stronger then he is.



Hyberion said that God Serena was the greatest wizard on the continent. Hyberion doesn't have to be correct, nor does he know everything. It is easiest to assume Serena is above Gildarts. I do believe the Heavenly Kings deserve some kind of separation from the Wizard Saints, and by extension they are likely the top 4 wizards in Isghal at the time this status was given out.



The translation I read was Jura was a match for Gildarts. I threw up this statement to see what you thought about it. I generally side with your view on this because it's only a character statement, but even so it is information, just not as accurate as seeing what they can do. Jura didn't really show anything that puts him on the level of Gildarts who can flatten a mountain, so since then I've made a clear distinction between what Jura is capable of, and what Gildarts is capable of.



How is what you said here different from versatility? She can expose weaknesses, not to the level of precision Wahl can but she'll figure it out thru the course of a fight. It's a nice advantage, gives her a fighting chance against opponents better than her I will agree to that. Just depends on how much stronger they are. It wouldn't allow her to fight evenly with Laxus in Tartarus arc imo, as an example.



So basically if Natsu got serious and used his full repertoire in base he should be able to outclass Erza? Ajeel accomplished this the second he activated Sandstorm, as spell Erza pretty much acknowledged as beyond her. Without Jupiter Erza is dead. If Ajeel wasn't arrogant, and there were no distractions or interference (this also includes Marin) Ajeel wins this fight and I say mid-diff is about right. Natsu in base would beat Erza with similar difficulty imo.



If Natsu's pushed to dragon force I do believe it's a high or greater difficulty for base Natsu. But if you're considering dragon force as a part of Natsu's ability then it is only high difficulty if dragon force is high difficulty. Hypothetical scenario - Lets say Erza can push base Natsu into using DF, then Natsu stomps Erza quickly in DF. What difficulty would this be relative to say a fight with August who possibly outclasses base Natsu, and then makes a mid to high diff fight for DF Natsu?

What has Erza done to show she can beat base Natsu? He's showing Spriggan level capabilities (pre-Zeref), Erza did not.



So why did you say 'flashy'? That made me interpret your statements as demeaning Natsu's power just because of how it looks. I'll take it from your word here that range allows Natsu to do better.




Bluenotes gravity had the same effect on Gildarts as it did Natsu; they could both stand in it. Going on that, Natsu's strength is possibly at Gildarts level, so maybe with just fists Natsu could fight evenly with Bluenote?

Natsu is also holding Chelia so the roar was used. Generally Natsu uses his fists so using a roar was just something he could do. If he used his DS magic with his fist he could pull off an Empyrean of his own.



Yea she can reduce all flames by 50%. Let's assume that this 50% would hold true against any power level, even Igneel's. If Natsu's roar against Bluenote can oneshot him, it's likely going to do the same to Erza or give her damage that is close to a knockout. So Natsu just uses 2 roars. Adamantine defence was wrecked by Kagura at GMG, doubt it's so strong now that it stops a roar. Her water attacks would be handy if they are also powerful enough, at best they could cut through some of Natsu's flames. Nakagami is probably only chance Erza has, and even then it puts her out of commission. I am not completely sold on Nakagami being able to bend the laws of magic when I don't even know what the laws of magic are, I just think of this armour as a small time power up that pushes her up a tier. If she can bend the laws of all magic regardless of power level with this armour I would say she should be a solid contributor against Zeref or Acnologia.

Allow me to elaborate on this Gildarts and Natsu thing. My stand is that we cannot definitely say that Natsu is or isn't stronger than Gildarts. The simple answer is because we haven't seen the current Gildarts. It's been a year since we last saw anything from him. Now is the current Natsu superior to the last we saw Gildarts, that's very debatable. For me, I'd say no except he uses DF in which case, he'd might slightly edge it out or draw. Gildarts has been shown numerous times blocking Natsu's flame attacks with his bare hands and then remains pretty much unscathed and there are a number of things to consider. Such a battle can go either way but I'd say Natsu would lose without using DF. Some think otherwise. However, considering everything, if Natsu uses DF and everything he has, he might slightly edge it out so I could say that Natsu Maybe stronger than that Gildarts. He's shown impressive stuff but his feats are still comparable to that Gildarts without him being definitely stronger. My main issue with Natsu and Gildarts comparison is that most say Natsu is definitely stronger than Gildarts. How can a valid comparison be made when Gildarts hasn't even shown up? It's fine to speculate but to pass it as a certain fact is something that doesn't follow. That's why I reference the laxus situation at times. Obviously people would always have different opinions at times but some said with certainty that Natsu would be superior and it turned out otherwise. That's basically to say that one should wait before comparing. One can't simply say Natsu is stronger than Jellal or Gildarts when we've not seen them. One can say Natsu maybe/should be than them or that Natsu is stronger than the last time we saw them but that's different when we've not even seen then. That's why I take care to say I think Gildarts 'would be' and mention that it's speculation. We're not in a position to state these opinions as fact when we don't have all the details.

On the heavenly kings, like I said, I don't really have basis to compare them. The wizard saints are generally considered the strongest in Ishgar. We've seen that isn't the case. Serena might be the strongest or not. He currently has that rank but events in the past has made me skeptical about such things. He's certainly at the top tier of Ishgar though.

Yes range allows Natsu to do better. I said flashy not to demean his attacks but to say that attacks like that usually makes one think it's a magic far stronger than another that wasn't as flashy. Think of it, Natsu used a roar against bluenote and it wasn't a named attack. What Natsu used to oneshot the war god was likely stronger than what he used against bluenote. Yet at first glance, the former might look a lot more powerful. Not to say that Natsu's attacks were weaker, it's definitely a strong attack however, it's flashy nature makes one think it's a lot more powerful when compared to some other things.

As for Natsu fighting evenly with bluenote, well that's basically my point. If he resorted to basic combat like Gildarts did, he'd have done about the same as that battle was.

Well you can't compare her armor and weapons right now to a year or some time before. It's just like you can't compare Natsu using a roar now to that of a year ago even if it's the same magic. It wouldn't allow her fight evenly with Tartarus Laxus? I disagree. Erza held her own against a spriggan on her own for the most part. I'd say that shows she can not only fight evenly with that Laxus but defeat him.

 

[Brandish μ]

Allow me to elaborate on this Gildarts and Natsu thing. My stand is that we cannot definitely say that Natsu is or isn't stronger than Gildarts. The simple answer is because we haven't seen the current Gildarts. It's been a year since we last saw anything from him. Now is the current Natsu superior to the last we saw Gildarts, that's very debatable. For me, I'd say no except he uses DF in which case, he'd might slightly edge it out or draw. Gildarts has been shown numerous times blocking Natsu's flame attacks with his bare hands and then remains pretty much unscathed and there are a number of things to consider. Such a battle can go either way but I'd say Natsu would lose without using DF. Some think otherwise. However, considering everything, if Natsu uses DF and everything he has, he might slightly edge it out so I could say that Natsu Maybe stronger than that Gildarts. He's shown impressive stuff but his feats are still comparable to that Gildarts without him being definitely stronger. My main issue with Natsu and Gildarts comparison is that most say Natsu is definitely stronger than Gildarts. How can a valid comparison be made when Gildarts hasn't even shown up? It's fine to speculate but to pass it as a certain fact is something that doesn't follow. That's why I reference the laxus situation at times. Obviously people would always have different opinions at times but some said with certainty that Natsu would be superior and it turned out otherwise. That's basically to say that one should wait before comparing. One can't simply say Natsu is stronger than Jellal or Gildarts when we've not seen them. One can say Natsu maybe/should be than them or that Natsu is stronger than the last time we saw them but that's different when we've not even seen then. That's why I take care to say I think Gildarts 'would be' and mention that it's speculation. We're not in a position to state these opinions as fact when we don't have all the details.

Okay I will accept that current Natsu is not 100% certified stronger than Gildarts in Tartarus, because I do agree we don't know everything so you can't say for absolute certainty; although this is not much fun because this is a manga we're not going to be able to sample information in a controlled way we just get to look at whatever Mashima gives us. And again to clarify I am talking about Tartarus Gildarts whenver I say Natsu is stronger, I often mention Gildarts in Tartarus to make it obvious. Where I have the issue is how Gildarts could possibly improve to be beyond Natsu now, which I have debated in other posts not with you I don't think. It might be that Gildarts is and always has been stronger than Natsu is right now, but until this is shown to me I don't have any reason to believe it so.

I'd say the axiom to any debate in about this particular match up would be that Natsu has better feats. Saying things like 'we haven't seen Gildarts capabilities' is nothing more than guessing or estimating. Natsu hasn't shown his upper limits either, he hasn't been pushed to a high diff fight in base. So really, using your reasoning, it is not possible to really tell, right? I think at the very least you can use their Bluenote encounters, Natsu's casual empyrean, and the mountain punch v demolition fist as a basis to infer their relative power levels. You say that Gildarts in Tartarus is likely stronger, but from those events I just gave where is he stronger? And let's not forget that Gildarts has gotten quite serious, enough to show just about how strong he is. Can Gildarts withstand Natsu's flames like he did before, keeping in mind that they've burned clothes and that GMG stadium?

On the heavenly kings, like I said, I don't really have basis to compare them. The wizard saints are generally considered the strongest in Ishgar. We've seen that isn't the case. Serena might be the strongest or not. He currently has that rank but events in the past has made me skeptical about such things. He's certainly at the top tier of Ishgar though.

That's reasonable. I think the most likely strongest person in Isghal was God Serena, someone like Gildarts could be at his level though and not recognised as a WS.

Yes range allows Natsu to do better. I said flashy not to demean his attacks but to say that attacks like that usually makes one think it's a magic far stronger than another that wasn't as flashy. Think of it, Natsu used a roar against bluenote and it wasn't a named attack. What Natsu used to oneshot the war god was likely stronger than what he used against bluenote. Yet at first glance, the former might look a lot more powerful. Not to say that Natsu's attacks were weaker, it's definitely a strong attack however, it's flashy nature makes one think it's a lot more powerful when compared to some other things.

Yea but I don't really see the need to comment on how something looks unless you're comparing the same moves, like a pre-TS roar v Bluenote roar. This is why I stated the quality of the move is not nearly as important as the MP involved with it. Just because something has a larger area of effect doesn't mean it's stronger.

As for Natsu fighting evenly with bluenote, well that's basically my point. If he resorted to basic combat like Gildarts did, he'd have done about the same as that battle was.

This is debatable but I have no reason to think otherwise.

Well you can't compare her armor and weapons right now to a year or some time before. It's just like you can't compare Natsu using a roar now to that of a year ago even if it's the same magic. It wouldn't allow her fight evenly with Tartarus Laxus? I disagree. Erza held her own against a spriggan on her own for the most part. I'd say that shows she can not only fight evenly with that Laxus but defeat him.

Adamantine was not that strong before in my view, which was my point, I just don't have a great deal of faith in it like her other armours, she can't just try and tank everything she needs to fight back. I would be considering her god armours (I am assuming she has more, hopefully we see it in her fight against Di Maria), Armadura, Benisakura, flame empress and Nakagami in a fight vs Natsu.

Yea I meant Laxus and Erza both in Tartarus, sorry for not being clear. If current Erza fights Tartarus Laxus that's a different story, it's much closer, I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if Erza won.

---------- Post added December 11, 2015 at 12:00 AM ---------- Previous post was December 10, 2015 at 11:51 PM ----------

Fair enough. We are each entitled to our own beliefs. I acknowledge your statement about Acnologia and the dragon slayers in the past being able to beat dragons. It's hard for me to analyze the past which is why I avoided that scenario as there are so many unknown factors; however, until I get more information about it, then you've got a point for now. As for Gildarts, I actually believe he is way above Makarov in overall strength let alone raw power. I know you didn't mention anything about it in your post, but I'm just setting the record straight according to my own belief to show how high I actually rank Gildarts.

I think it safe to say though that humans without dragon slayer magic probably can't beat a dragon. Dragons like you say are implied to be supremely powerful. I consider dragon slayers as an exception to the rule kind of thing.

Makarov's been on the slide health wise, in terms of MP he is probably still a beast. But wouldn't put him past Gildarts to be frank.

 

[kkck]

I disagree. It doesn't really make sense if you think about it from a dragon's perspective. Dragons are entirely capable of using magic. They have magic to heal, talk with spirits, telepathy, make clothing disappear, and even seal themselves inside someone else. The dragons know enough about dragon slaying magic to teach it. In fact, before they taught the humans they were the only ones who even had dragon slayer magic. If a dragon knew of an effective magic to use against other dragons, they would use it. There's no real reason they couldn't or wouldn't. Dragons can also use dragon slayer magic, and their dragon slayer magic would be more powerful than the human's. A human would have no advantage over a dragon.

It's no coincidence that Acnologia, the strongest dragon slayer, literally turns into a dragon to fight. Acnologia wouldn't be able to slay Igneel if he wasn't able to fight on an even level with Igneel. He's also the only dragon slayer we've seen actually take down a dragon. Dragon Force, the strongest form available to dragon slayers, gives you dragon-like properties. Dragon Force is described by pretty much everyone to be "wielding the power of a dragon". I believe it was even stated that to slay a dragon you must have power that is on the same level as a dragon, and that's what makes a dragon slayer.

The fact that Makarov couldn't harm Atlas Flame but weaker dragon slayers could, implies that dragons have a natural resistance to magic. However, dragons wouldn't have evolved natural immunity to their own magic. Since dragon slayers are essentially using dragon magic, the dragons don't have this resistance against them either. It doesn't imply that a dragon would get wrecked by dragon slayers weaker than themselves, not in the same way demon slayer magic wrecks demons. That's simply not what happened. Even with dragon slayer magic, the only dragon that managed to be knocked out was Motherglare. That was only achieved by Natsu taking some of Atlas Flame's power and then working together.

Dragons having immunity to magic or human magic does not add up in this case. If such was the case the implication would be that they would have immunity to magic except dragon slaying magic. Basically it would allow humans to fight dragons on even terms and reduce the fight to pure skill and power. However dragons have consistently shown power immensely greater than humans in all regards. Take the dragon roars from actual dragons we have seen. Natsu has shown a few powerful ones so far however nothing even vaguely close to this. Even the springan have yet to show something of this magnitude. And that is considering that is a normal dragon roar for a dragon and springans seem to be at a level higher than makarov. One way or the other dragons enjoy having a volume of power simply unattainable for humans, at least up to this point. Which is why even a dragon slayer of gildart's caliber isn't enough to deal with atlasflame. Dragon slayers works by being remarkably effective against dragons (not overcoming immunity against a being that is potentially comparable in terms of power).

Just look at the effect of using slayer type magic against a being whose power is comparable to your own. Grey foderized tempest and defeated mard geer, who was quite stronger than him, in a single shot. And mard geer literally barely felt natsu's lightning flame attacks, it took dragon force for natsu to do anything at all.

Also, it wouldn't be the first time dragon slayer magic is not quite as effective as it should be. At least not to the extent it was when dragon slayers used it against dragons or grey used his slayer magic against mard geer. Remember natsu vs gajeel? In the fight they were shown as roughly equal, maybe natsu had a slight edge. However their magic was not as effective against the other as grey' slayer magic was against mard geer. And that is even considering mard geer was immensely more powerful than grey at the time. If their magic had been as effective grey's magic was against mard geer or as their magic was against dragons during the eclipse events then a single tap from either would have obliterated the other, not a speck of them would have been left.

 

[Axiomus]

Dragons having immunity to magic or human magic does not add up in this case. If such was the case the implication would be that they would have immunity to magic except dragon slaying magic. Basically it would allow humans to fight dragons on even terms and reduce the fight to pure skill and power. However dragons have consistently shown power immensely greater than humans in all regards. Take the dragon roars from actual dragons we have seen. Natsu has shown a few powerful ones so far however nothing even vaguely close to this. Even the springan have yet to show something of this magnitude. And that is considering that is a normal dragon roar for a dragon and springans seem to be at a level higher than makarov. One way or the other dragons enjoy having a volume of power simply unattainable for humans, at least up to this point. Which is why even a dragon slayer of gildart's caliber isn't enough to deal with atlas flame. Dragon slayers works by being remarkably effective against dragons (not overcoming immunity against a being that is potentially comparable in terms of power).

Just look at the effect of using slayer type magic against a being whose power is comparable to your own. Grey foderized tempest and defeated mard geer, who was quite stronger than him, in a single shot. And mard geer literally barely felt natsu's lightning flame attacks, it took dragon force for natsu to do anything at all.

Also, it wouldn't be the first time dragon slayer magic is not quite as effective as it should be. At least not to the extent it was when dragon slayers used it against dragons or grey used his slayer magic against mard geer. Remember natsu vs gajeel? In the fight they were shown as roughly equal, maybe natsu had a slight edge. However their magic was not as effective against the other as grey' slayer magic was against mard geer. And that is even considering mard geer was immensely more powerful than grey at the time. If their magic had been as effective grey's magic was against mard geer or as their magic was against dragons during the eclipse events then a single tap from either would have obliterated the other, not a speck of them would have been left.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. Dragons have greater magical power than humans and they have a natural resistance to non-dragon magic. To slay a dragon, you need to have dragon magic and be stronger than one. I don't really see any other way. Just take Igneel and Acnologia. We didn't get the sense that Acnologia killed Igneel because Acnologia's magic was far more effective. We got the sense that he killed Igneel because he was simply stronger.

Dragon slayer magic doesn't really work the same way as demon slayer magic. Dragon Slayers can't wreck a dragon far stronger than themselves. Literally none of the dragon slayers could do any sort of permanent damage to their dragons, except for Natsu when he had Atlas Flame's power.

There's also the fact that dragons can use magic. If worse comes to worse, they can just use dragon slayer magic to match yours. In fact, they might even overpower you. Dragons would also be used to tanking attacks from other dragons. So why would a human that is taught the same magic, but using it on a weaker level, be seen as an equal threat? If you were a dragon and you were given the choice of fighting Natsu or Igneel, you would probably pick Natsu 100% of the time. Igneel can do everything Natsu can, but a lot better.

 

[kkck]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. Dragons have greater magical power than humans and they have a natural resistance to non-dragon magic. To slay a dragon, you need to have dragon magic and be stronger than one. I don't really see any other way. Just take Igneel and Acnologia. We didn't get the sense that Acnologia killed Igneel because Acnologia's magic was far more effective. We got the sense that he killed Igneel because he was simply stronger.

Dragon slayer magic doesn't really work the same way as demon slayer magic. Dragon Slayers can't wreck a dragon far stronger than themselves. Literally none of the dragon slayers could do any sort of permanent damage to their dragons, except for Natsu when he had Atlas Flame's power.

If dragons had both things then dragon slayers wouldn't be able to match dragons, it'd be impossible. The actual powers dragons have is immensely greater than any humans, and probably even beyond human altogether. For dragon slayer magic to work it'd have to be either dragons are immensely stronger than humans or dragons are immune to human and slayer magic overcomes that.

I agree on the igneel and acknologia bit. However their magic not being particularly effective on the other has the direct implication that the situation does not work as we have seen with other slayers. We saw dragon slayer magic being effective against dragons even when makarov failed to even tickle one. We saw grey, who was much weaker than mard geer, ending mard geer in a single hit even after dragon force did not deal much damage. The thing is, all slayer type magics are equally effective against their intended targets. Which is why weak dragon slayers had an effect against dragons. And why grey was able to one shot demons, one whom he would have been lucky to be a match against and another who was quite stronger. With igneel and acknologia we did not see their magics being as effective as slaying magic had been in the past against their intended targets. Which means that they were either not using proper dragon slaying magic or they were working under different rules. And its the same when natsu and gejeel fought. They are supposed to have bodies similar to that of dragons and yet they were not ended with a single attack from the other. Different slayer type magics are equally effective against their intended targets. The difference is the strength of the target. Which is why grey can one shoot demons but dragon slayers only manage to cause some damage so far. Dragons are simply much stronger than demons.

Also, natsu was the one that most notoriously did damage to a dragon because of atlasflame. However the others did do damage as well.
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/330/6
Laxus with that alone did more than makarov did.
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/330/8
Sting did so as well.
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/330/12
And so did cobra.

 

[Axiomus]

If dragons had both things then dragon slayers wouldn't be able to match dragons, it'd be impossible. The actual powers dragons have is immensely greater than any humans, and probably even beyond human altogether. For dragon slayer magic to work it'd have to be either dragons are immensely stronger than humans or dragons are immune to human and slayer magic overcomes that.

I agree on the igneel and acknologia bit. However their magic not being particularly effective on the other has the direct implication that the situation does not work as we have seen with other slayers. We saw dragon slayer magic being effective against dragons even when makarov failed to even tickle one. We saw grey, who was much weaker than mard geer, ending mard geer in a single hit even after dragon force did not deal much damage. The thing is, all slayer type magics are equally effective against their intended targets. Which is why weak dragon slayers had an effect against dragons. And why grey was able to one shot demons, one whom he would have been lucky to be a match against and another who was quite stronger. With igneel and acknologia we did not see their magics being as effective as slaying magic had been in the past against their intended targets. Which means that they were either not using proper dragon slaying magic or they were working under different rules. And its the same when natsu and gejeel fought. They are supposed to have bodies similar to that of dragons and yet they were not ended with a single attack from the other. Different slayer type magics are equally effective against their intended targets. The difference is the strength of the target. Which is why grey can one shoot demons but dragon slayers only manage to cause some damage so far. Dragons are simply much stronger than demons.

Also, natsu was the one that most notoriously did damage to a dragon because of atlasflame. However the others did do damage as well.
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/330/6
Laxus with that alone did more than makarov did.
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/330/8
Sting did so as well.
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/330/12
And so did cobra.

The dragon slayers during the GMG weren't able to match a dragon. They weren't even close. That's why Mavis expressed her disappointment. It is possible for a dragon slayer to match a dragon if they can actually become as strong as a dragon with dragon slayer magic though, which is what Acnologia does. I'm sure you can get by slaying weaker dragons with less power. Laxus can probably take out dragons of Zirconis' level by now. I see Laxus' giant blast as being roughly on the same level as the dragons. It's likely the case that some dragons, like Igneel, most human dragon slayers will never match. It would take someone of Acnologia's level to slay them.

The dragon slayers attacks managed to "hurt" the dragons, but it wasn't anything significant. Imagine if a 12 year old punched you. Yeah, it would hurt and be annoying, but you wouldn't be threatened by him. Technically Natsu managed to hurt the dragons with Atlas Flame's power. However, even with his massive attacks, Motherglare was still able to tank his punches and continue fighting Atlas Flame: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/333/10.
It was only when Atlas Flame helped Natsu out that he was able to take out Motherglare. If Natsu was standing in front of Motherglare trying to trade blows with her, Natsu would have lost entirely.

 

[kkck]

The dragon slayers during the GMG weren't able to match a dragon. They weren't even close. That's why Mavis expressed her disappointment. It is possible for a dragon slayer to match a dragon if they can actually become as strong as a dragon with dragon slayer magic though, which is what Acnologia does. I'm sure you can get by slaying weaker dragons with less power. Laxus can probably take out dragons of Zirconis' level by now. I see Laxus' giant blast as being roughly on the same level as the dragons. It's likely the case that some dragons, like Igneel, most human dragon slayers will never match. It would take someone of Acnologia's level to slay them.

The dragon slayers attacks managed to "hurt" the dragons, but it wasn't anything significant. Imagine if a 12 year old punched you. Yeah, it would hurt and be annoying, but you wouldn't be threatened by him. Technically Natsu managed to hurt the dragons with Atlas Flame's power. However, even with his massive attacks, Motherglare was still able to tank his punches and continue fighting Atlas Flame: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/333/10.
It was only when Atlas Flame helped Natsu out that he was able to take out Motherglare. If Natsu was standing in front of Motherglare trying to trade blows with her, Natsu would have lost entirely.

I didn't say the dragons slayers matched the 7 dragons back then. My point was that their attacks did have an effect, however small, on their targets while the likes of makarov did not match even that. Of course, the dragons slayers would have lost if the fight continued but that is besides the point. It does however show the insane extent to which dragon slaying magic is effective against dragons.

At the start of my previous post I did use the word match however I didn't mean the specific case of the eclipse events. I meant dragon slayers wouldn't be able to match dragons in general. As in, it would be completely impossible under any scenario for any human dragon slayer regardless of circumstances to kill a dragon if they had to match dragons in terms of raw power and overcome a natural immunity to magic. It's either one or the other and as far as I can tell the manga does not really support the idea of dragons being immune to human magic. And it is likely impossible for a human to match a dragon in terms of sheer raw power. Hence slayer magic which is incredibly effective even in spite of the raw power gap. The most likely situation is that even the most powerful human mages don't come even vaguely close to matching the raw power of an actual dragon.

Dragon slayers don't have to become as strong as dragons. In the same way grey didn't have to be anywhere near mard geer to end him in one attack. Of course, there is a minimum that dragon slayers need to defeat dragons which seems to be more than what we have seen from them in terms of strength so far. Grey was closer to mard geer than the dragon slayers were to the dragons. However that is the reason why grey one shooted mard geer while the dragon slayers had to settle for annoying the dragons.

 

[Axiomus]

I didn't say the dragons slayers matched the 7 dragons back then. My point was that their attacks did have an effect, however small, on their targets while the likes of makarov did not match even that. Of course, the dragons slayers would have lost if the fight continued but that is besides the point. It does however show the insane extent to which dragon slaying magic is effective against dragons.

At the start of my previous post I did use the word match however I didn't mean the specific case of the eclipse events. I meant dragon slayers wouldn't be able to match dragons in general. As in, it would be completely impossible under any scenario for any human dragon slayer regardless of circumstances to kill a dragon if they had to match dragons in terms of raw power and overcome a natural immunity to magic. It's either one or the other and as far as I can tell the manga does not really support the idea of dragons being immune to human magic. And it is likely impossible for a human to match a dragon in terms of sheer raw power. Hence slayer magic which is incredibly effective even in spite of the raw power gap. The most likely situation is that even the most powerful human mages don't come even vaguely close to matching the raw power of an actual dragon.

Dragon slayers don't have to become as strong as dragons. In the same way grey didn't have to be anywhere near mard geer to end him in one attack. Of course, there is a minimum that dragon slayers need to defeat dragons which seems to be more than what we have seen from them in terms of strength so far. Grey was closer to mard geer than the dragon slayers were to the dragons. However that is the reason why grey one shooted mard geer while the dragon slayers had to settle for annoying the dragons.

Why does there have to be either or? It's not impossible for a human to match a dragon in terms of raw power. It depends on the dragon. I would say someone like Laxus have already surpassed dragons like Zirconis in that regard. I don't see there being much of a difference between the attack Laxus used against Ajeel and Motherglare's roar either. For dragons like Igneel, it would be impossible for most humans. It takes someone of Acnologia's caliber to slay a dragon like Igneel. Most humans would probably never reach the level where they can slay dragons like Metallicana or Grandeeney either. They'll have to settle for weaker ones like Zirconis and max out against Motherglare-type dragons.

I just don't see any real advantage a dragon slayer would have over an actual dragon. Their strongest power, Dragon Force, dragonizes them. Their opponent dragon will also have access to dragon slayer magic, and the dragon's will be more powerful than theirs.

---------- Post added at 01:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 PM ----------

If you were to ask me, someone like August could probably fight on an even level with a dragon like Motherglare without using dragon slayer magic. He might not be able to deal any significant damage to the dragon, but I can definitely see him being able to block and parry attacks. I can definitely see Motherglare having to struggle immensely to put him down and might end up even failing trying to do so.

 

[kkck]

Why does there have to be either or? It's not impossible for a human to match a dragon in terms of raw power. It depends on the dragon. I would say someone like Laxus have already surpassed dragons like Zirconis in that regard. I don't see there being much of a difference between the attack Laxus used against Ajeel and Motherglare's roar either. For dragons like Igneel, it would be impossible for most humans. It takes someone of Acnologia's caliber to slay a dragon like Igneel. Most humans would probably never reach the level where they can slay dragons like Metallicana or Grandeeney either. They'll have to settle for weaker ones like Zirconis and max out against Motherglare-type dragons.

I just don't see any real advantage a dragon slayer would have over an actual dragon. Their strongest power, Dragon Force, dragonizes them. Their opponent dragon will also have access to dragon slayer magic, and the dragon's will be more powerful than theirs.

---------- Post added at 01:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 PM ----------

If you were to ask me, someone like August could probably fight on an even level with a dragon like Motherglare without using dragon slayer magic. He might not be able to deal any significant damage to the dragon, but I can definitely see him being able to block and parry attacks. I can definitely see Motherglare having to struggle immensely to put him down and might end up even failing trying to do so.

Two reasons. first, there is no real evidence that dragons have any degree of actual immunity to human magic. Second, it is too much. Dragons have consistently shown power immensely greater than that of humans. In terms of size laxus did use pretty big attacks but I doubt they come close to what dragons have shown so far. Take a look at the roar mothergrea used. There is no way what laxus used against ajir even compares to that. Sure, the scale of the attacks is considerable however motherglare's roar traveled past the city well into the distance and caused a explosion which seemed huge. In turn what we saw from laxus was pretty big but also in the immediate vicinity. Laxus at this point might be able to defeat a dragon. However him actually matching the raw power of one probably won't be a thing.

To put dragon's power in context... We just saw natsu almost killing zeref. And what did natsu used? Leftovers from igneel's power. Just how immense was igneel's power that leftovers from it were enough to work? Ok, maybe it is not outright impossible for a human to match a dragon in terms of raw power. However the implication so far is that dragons have a volume of power so absurdly immense that even a punch from makarov is nothing to one much weaker than acknologia. It is so absurdly immense that even when faced with a dragon slayer of laxus caliber 2 years ago zirconis walked out of it pretty much unscathed. And there is no reason to think dragon slayer magic is less effective against dragons than it is against demons. How many times stronger than makarov do you have to be to not even flinch at his attack? dozens? Hundreds? thousands? Maybe it is plausible for a human to eventually acquire that sort of power... but over how long? I doubt even among the sprigan there are people who have dozens of times the power makarov has. And to be fair, zeref gathered the springan to defeat acknologia.

 

[Erza Scarlett]

E.N.D. is NEVER gonna be the strongest, not without knowing the potential of LAXUS, GILDARTZ or hence even JELLAL to the fullest extent of their power in THIS ARC.

 

[DemonKing888]

I wonder how Silver knew that E.N.D was a flame demon, and why would Igneel even think about killing a child Natsu. Maybe he could use his Etherious mode as a kid.

Maybe a Bratty Natsu went on a rampage that Igneel had to stop.

 

[dark123]

I know that i was right about everything what happened but i am afraid of something. I hope that Mashima won't forget that Natsu is supposed to be the strongest being created from pure power and we won't see nakama power in action because this one story about END is 100 times better than whole manga. I really have enough of Erza's love power up. Mashima created END to make history interesting, he created being who can overpower everyone and devour all enemies. That is how it was/is supposed to be. For me he should continue what he started and give us main hero this manga deserves: the strongest being alive.
What do you think about that?

 

[Brandish μ]

Nakama power is a legit source of magic and a major theme in the manga, hate it or love it it won't disappear.

I feel Mashima has handled END in a peculiar way. To explain, there's a whole heap of stuff we're told about END that is not true or at least made up by somebody who didn't know END - Mard Geer in particular. This has lead to misinformed hype which I don't like as a fan, it feels like I am cheated. But there's more to this story so I will wait and see.

Basically I'm only considering what Zeref has said about END to be fact, anything Igneel said would also be true. Everyone else who said anything about END: Mard Geer, Atlas Flame, Silver etc their statements I consider inconclusive until proven right/wrong.

As for how Mashima will handle END there is 2 primary points:

- How his guildmates take the news of END = Natsu. First off Natsu/Happy has to tell the guild, and the amount of info he relays to the guild is also important. Secondly and most importantly is the impact of the revelation. Gray and Lucy are the main ones. Gray and his END vandetta, what route does Gray take? And Lucy. She holds romantic feelings for Natsu (I believe so anyway) so how does she take this news, and furthermore how does Lucy react to the Layla+Natsu connection (provided Natsu or happy say anything about Layla/Anna)? [The dragon slayers also have bombshells dropped on them with the 400+ YO revelation but this isn't exactly to do with END]

- Will there be any curse powers? Is there more to Natsu being END than being a dragon slayer?

I am not particularly interested in the END story-line, I am actually alright with END being Natsu the dragon slayer and not demon related. But I am very interested in how it affects the guild.