Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Brandish μ]

Well I don't know but a couple of seconds may be too little time to people like us, but to characters like them, some of which move above the speed of sound and so on... One second is quite a lot, get me? I mean, if I was completely sure that upon joinin his hands, Jacob kills me; and I'm as fast as Laxus, then I definetely can do something about it. Or if I'm not that fast but I've got some kind of magic like Hyberion's, that seemingly paralyzes you... I'd use it right away.

I get that DiMaria's teeth grind is quick, like under a second. Clapping your hands is also quick, like a second. It's just a clap. Happy stopped it and knew he had to, and was close. What if Laxus zapped DiMaria with lightning? It might not work but it's possible if he knew he had to. My point is I don't really think there is a great deal of difference in clicking your teeth and clapping, but Age Seal > Transport.

I don't aim at either downplaying Wahl or hyping Laxus. The thing is, if lightning isn't going to work against Wahl, he has to beat him by means of magicless punches and kicks. Laxu's cqc magicless abilities should be superhuman, but not enough to break through Wahl's durability (=Laxus cannot harm Wahl with bare punches and kicks). But now add him a kind of magic, any type, with the intensity of his MP, and then he should actually wreck Wahl. I mean, the only reason why Laxus wasn't harming Wahl was because his attacks weren't magic imbued, or they were immune magic imbued. Give him any other element and he wipes the floor with Wahl, I think.

Why can't Laxus' magicless punches break Wahl's durability? It's still his punches, under his strength. If it's like Natsu's punches, the lightning actually enhances the power of the punch (not just magic, but momentum wise). If it's not like that, then the force in them is still enough to send Wahl flying, and kick him through a house (after using LB to enhance his momentum). All of these hits would be powerful, and it puts Wahl's durability on the top level for Spriggans so far.

I think Laxus will do more damage for sure if Wahl wasn't immune, but it's not going to be a huge difference. If that's the case, then Laxus can probably mid diff every other Spriggan that doesn't have a big hax.

In this case, Wahl can counter Bradman's hax. Does that put him above Bradman? No. Still, I believe Bradman to be above Wahl, but not for that.

But isn't DiMaria above others because none can counter her? I get what you mean, that Wahl is the only one that can counter Bradman; while only a few could stop DiMaria. But who can counter anti-magic particle body? I'm not trying to shut down your outlook, but if you live by the hax counter rule then DiMaria/Bradman should always remain above Laxus/Jellal, or even DF Natsu.

So, I wouldn't say that fight outcomes represent power ranking AT ALL. For example, Erza beat Ajeel but Ajeel > Erza, TO Chelia beat Dimaria but Dimaria > TO Chelia, Tenrou Natsu beat Hades but Hades > Natsu.

An outcome of a fight is most important. Erza beat Ajeel under the circumstances of that fight. TO-Sherria won under the circumstances of that fight. Tenrou LFD Natsu beat Hades and combat wise was better than Hades.

This is my guess with GS. God Serena is underrated because the AoE of his attacks didn't seem to be powerful, but imagine he can create attacks that rival Laxus' or Natsu's best, and in varied different elements. Then he definetely is more powerful than Laxus or Natsu, right?

Why is he underrated if his spells have less AoE? The spells he used are the main reason he is held in any regard - high or low. They were powerful, had sizable AoE, and he spammed them. He might be able to match Natsu, but he certainly didn't show it. If he could match Natsu's power then he'd be as strong as Natsu. Power output doesn't change just because you have more elements. I will say that God Serena would be a more rounded wizard with having more, but I wouldn't say he's more powerful.

She was the only one who was extremely close to Bradman and didn't die! How can you account for that?

So we just selectively omit this because why? All it looks like it serves is to hype Bradman's offensive prowess. His curses he used are not enough to KO Levy, that is all. Essentially, Bradman achieved against Levy what God Serena achieve against the GoI. Gajeel was able to keep fighting, so I can only say it all points to Bradman's offence not being particularly strong (well the offence he used, including his best curse).

You could say that, but it's all very relative. On the one hand, you could argue Natsu's roar was not casual, it was full-powered because he acknowledged the danger of the enemy; whereas GS was just playing around.

On the other hand, if you don't like this argument, you can always claim that yeah, Base Natsu can actually output more power in one attack, but if Serena can successively burst attacks like he does, he eventually overpowers Base Natsu's roar, and ends up outputing similar or superior amount of damage.

However, I do believe Jura's durability to be superior to Bluenote's, and equal to the GoI, but I believe Bluenote's magic to be more haxy/superior/powerful

Natsu used a full-powered roar imo. But I doubt God Serena was playing around. He went serious (he powered up), his eyes went all black (Idk why), and used his best magic. The only thing I will say is that God Serena used low-end spells, rather than roars/secret arts. That is where the hype for Serena should come from, not that he was playing around.

Natsu's roar will be more effective than Serena's in a battle though. If Serena was spamming against Natsu, the roar would overpower any of Serena's spells. Sure they could achive the same result, but Natsu's is a oneshot and would plow through any of Serena's spells. (Assuming Natsu's is acutally stronger).

Well IMO Natsu's attack against the War God was more impressive than God Serena's attack, but I might be wrong here. I do recall Natsu's pre-timeskip attacks having more AoE than Hellflame's God Serena attack though. Which does not mean by any means pretimeskip Natsu is superior to GS, it only makes GS's attacks more concentrated and less AoE based.

Are you talking about Natsu's FD Iron Fist or Demolishing Strike?

The attack that Natsu has that is analogous to Hellflame is FD Iron Fist. Dragon Slayer techniques are in a way an imitation of what dragon's do. The Iron Fist is probably Natsu's most used move, it's a punch. The biggest one to date is the one he used against Zeref's fodders. Both Natsu and Serena gather power in the same way for these 2 attacks, but Natsu's was bigger. I can call it even for argument sake, meaning base Natsu's attacks are equivalent to God Serena's DS attacks.

 

[Jko]

I get that DiMaria's teeth grind is quick, like under a second. Clapping your hands is also quick, like a second. It's just a clap. Happy stopped it and knew he had to, and was close. What if Laxus zapped DiMaria with lightning? It might not work but it's possible if he knew he had to. My point is I don't really think there is a great deal of difference in clicking your teeth and clapping, but Age Seal > Transport.



Why can't Laxus' magicless punches break Wahl's durability? It's still his punches, under his strength. If it's like Natsu's punches, the lightning actually enhances the power of the punch (not just magic, but momentum wise). If it's not like that, then the force in them is still enough to send Wahl flying, and kick him through a house (after using LB to enhance his momentum). All of these hits would be powerful, and it puts Wahl's durability on the top level for Spriggans so far.

I think Laxus will do more damage for sure if Wahl wasn't immune, but it's not going to be a huge difference. If that's the case, then Laxus can probably mid diff every other Spriggan that doesn't have a big hax.



But isn't DiMaria above others because none can counter her? I get what you mean, that Wahl is the only one that can counter Bradman; while only a few could stop DiMaria. But who can counter anti-magic particle body? I'm not trying to shut down your outlook, but if you live by the hax counter rule then DiMaria/Bradman should always remain above Laxus/Jellal, or even DF Natsu.



An outcome of a fight is most important. Erza beat Ajeel under the circumstances of that fight. TO-Sherria won under the circumstances of that fight. Tenrou LFD Natsu beat Hades and combat wise was better than Hades.



Why is he underrated if his spells have less AoE? The spells he used are the main reason he is held in any regard - high or low. They were powerful, had sizable AoE, and he spammed them. He might be able to match Natsu, but he certainly didn't show it. If he could match Natsu's power then he'd be as strong as Natsu. Power output doesn't change just because you have more elements. I will say that God Serena would be a more rounded wizard with having more, but I wouldn't say he's more powerful.



So we just selectively omit this because why? All it looks like it serves is to hype Bradman's offensive prowess. His curses he used are not enough to KO Levy, that is all. Essentially, Bradman achieved against Levy what God Serena achieve against the GoI. Gajeel was able to keep fighting, so I can only say it all points to Bradman's offence not being particularly strong (well the offence he used, including his best curse).



Natsu used a full-powered roar imo. But I doubt God Serena was playing around. He went serious (he powered up), his eyes went all black (Idk why), and used his best magic. The only thing I will say is that God Serena used low-end spells, rather than roars/secret arts. That is where the hype for Serena should come from, not that he was playing around.

Natsu's roar will be more effective than Serena's in a battle though. If Serena was spamming against Natsu, the roar would overpower any of Serena's spells. Sure they could achive the same result, but Natsu's is a oneshot and would plow through any of Serena's spells. (Assuming Natsu's is acutally stronger).



Are you talking about Natsu's FD Iron Fist or Demolishing Strike?

The attack that Natsu has that is analogous to Hellflame is FD Iron Fist. Dragon Slayer techniques are in a way an imitation of what dragon's do. The Iron Fist is probably Natsu's most used move, it's a punch. The biggest one to date is the one he used against Zeref's fodders. Both Natsu and Serena gather power in the same way for these 2 attacks, but Natsu's was bigger. I can call it even for argument sake, meaning base Natsu's attacks are equivalent to God Serena's DS attacks.

Dimaria actually doesn't have to click her teeth, she does it with a thought. When she used it on Chelia and Kagura she didn't click her teeth. It just a habit.

 

[sharkai]

Some people here believe the GoI to be overhyped? On the contrary, they're severely downplayed. And that's only because of the treatment they received from God Serena.

Again, does it mean that they are fodder because a standard Spriggan level wizard wiped the floor with them, not even struggling?

Or does it mean that GS is above the average spriggan?

IMO, it should be the second. Come on, if 3 Erza level wizards + 1 Jura couldn't put up a fight against a wizard who's said to be at the same level of Ajeel, to whom Erza put up a proper fight... There's inconsistancy here, can't you see?

3 Erza level wizards + 1 Jura (GoI+Jura) should be above, or at the very least equal to Laxus... who, for the record, actually won against a regular Spriggan, when he was severely injured and handicapped, and to top it off, Wahl was a counter of his magic!

Warrod might've stated he's not quite the fighter, but Erza claimed he was just being humble. In terms of MP, Warrod probably tops even Laxus, and if he does not reach the Spriggan lvl category, it mustn't be by far. Old geezers in Fairy Tail are known to have vast amounts of MP.

Wolfheim seems to be an Elfman on steroids. Is that bad? Not at all. Elfman is not thaaaat weak anymore. After all, he managed to finish off a character who even her sister couldn't deal with (Shailah) + he's had 1 year of training. Still, Wolfheim seems to be the master of beast soul. He should be the most proficient Take Over user save Dimaria.

Hyberion seems to have a haxy magic, which comes handy since not many Ishgar mages have proper hax. He was extremely downplayed but I believe him to be capable of giving as much fight to a regular spriggan as Erza did to Ajeel, if not more.

Lol this funny. Serena getting alot of love here.
Lets do some basic analysis shall we
First all springgan are relatively equal depending on situation. Other than of course Irene and August.

So Serena shouldn't be that above unless he shows us something. Unfortunately GOI are featless so that doesn't help him.

Lets look at what happened when Ezra faught ajeel

Ezra. basically swords user cqc
Ajeel sand magic

1) Swords are useless against ajeel
2) ajeel going all out. Sand world erza a cqc fighter eyes becomes useless ajeel attacked while hiding.
conclusion
Ajeel was seriously bad matchup for Ezra

There were three out side interference
Marin made Ezra magicless allowing ajeel to do what he claim a fatal move
One guy flying between them
And Jupiter cannon.

Let start from the beginning
They exchanged some blows reacting equally to each other
Suddenly Ezra magic stopped working. She is engulfed in sand.

After x amount of energy removed
Ezra magic restored she dispels ajeel magic
She blitz ajeel but swords doesn't work on him.

someone flies and hit the ship.Ezra says she understand and blitz ajeel again
This time with water sword
Ajeel gets x1 damage
Ezra attacks again. Ajeel uses arm but still get damage around y1 amount of damage.

Ajeel dodges next hit and uses sand. Ezra dispels it.
And sand world.
Ezra eyes are useless

Ajeel sneaks behind Ezra and attacks. does y amount of damage.
And suddenly appears in front of Ezra and grabs her and drain her energy. Around let say z amount
Erza drops her sword

This is the critical point.
Ezra requires x+y+z energy drain to make her drop her swords.

Then requips into morning star.
Jupiter fires
Then three possible things happen
1) plot. Only ajeel gets hit. get z1 amount of damage. Ezra follows and uses nakagami finishes off ajeel
2) both are hit. But Ezra was ready for it. And she finishes of ajeel.
3) Ezra overpowers ajeel throws him in front of Jupiter and steps away.

assuming Nakagami dealt zz amount of damage.
Ajeel needed
X1+y1+z1+zz
To finish him off.
Since we haven't seen him yet we can easily assume that this is more than actually required to finish him. Unlike Ezra case who still had ability to fight.

Ezra with help > ajeel with help.

What happens without outside interference.
Everything remains the same except Ezra doesn't get damage or drain x.
If we assume Ezra needed atleast x+y+z to drop her swords(because she still had energy to requip twice after that.)
So erza doesn't drop her sword. And instead stabs him.
Ajeel drops her. More powered Nakagami because no x amount of damage. To nearly finish of ajeel. Possible need another blow to compensate for Jupiter
Keep in mind Ezra energy was being drained as well as injuries. So her attacking power falls alot
ajeel attacking power doesn't fall as much if at all

So yes Ezra chances of winning are higher than ajeel provided everything remains same.
But keep in mind ajeel is seriously bad matchup for Ezra

Both Ezra and ajeel had more to offer
But 90% of erza magic doesn't work on him


What would happen if Serena fought three erzas and one Jura
A stomp. Ezra alone might be able to take out Serena since he has no immunity to swords or has ability to drain energy or abilty to render Ezra eyes useless
Three Ezra might be even too much for August to handle.


Where did you get that GOI are Ezra tier that serious downgrading of Ezra
Like laxus is Jura tier now. lol

Keep also in mind that goi are irrelevant so their chances of redemption is very low
While Ezra is the second most important battle character. They cannot be compared at all

 

[Ebony Maw]

Why is he underrated if his spells have less AoE? The spells he used are the main reason he is held in any regard - high or low. They were powerful, had sizable AoE, and he spammed them. He might be able to match Natsu, but he certainly didn't show it. If he could match Natsu's power then he'd be as strong as Natsu. Power output doesn't change just because you have more elements. I will say that God Serena would be a more rounded wizard with having more, but I wouldn't say he's more powerful.

I'd put God Serena on Natsu's tier, the dude casually stomped the GoI, it's impressive no matter which way you slice it. He also tanked all of their attacks with hardly any problems until Hyberion stepped in and even that he broke out of it the second he got serious. I'd generally assume that each of the GoI are at least Erza-tier, their hype alone as the 3 strongest wizards on the continent should put them there. Of course there are a handful of mages stronger (strangely all but one come from Fairy Tail....) but outside of that handful they're the elite and Serena roflstomped them casually, and then proceeded to wreck even harder when he went serious. I honestly can't see base Natsu crushing the GoI that badly, FDKM mode is another story though.

So we just selectively omit this because why? All it looks like it serves is to hype Bradman's offensive prowess. His curses he used are not enough to KO Levy, that is all. Essentially, Bradman achieved against Levy what God Serena achieve against the GoI. Gajeel was able to keep fighting, so I can only say it all points to Bradman's offence not being particularly strong (well the offence he used, including his best curse).

I wouldn't call Bradman's offense not particularly strong when he was destroying his natural counter. The only reason Gajeel survived until Over Skelter was because of Levy, she dispelled Bradman's Second Seal which was draining Gajeel of his life and Bradman expressed shock when both of them escaped Over Skelter (this fight was such bs, it didn't even explain how they escaped -_-) after he said that it's inescapable. Levy was a massive plot hole in that fight, Gajeel could survive thanks to his Iron Lungs but Levy? She apparently tanked being infected by MBP's, which is strange considering how her durability has been before. As for Bradman not using his full set of curses, I put that down to him toying with Gajeevy, he knew that neither could touch him and decided to have fun, right before the fight started he said that he hasn't fought for real due to his MBP's killing too quickly.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Lol this funny. Serena getting alot of love here.
Lets do some basic analysis shall we
First all springgan are relatively equal depending on situation. Other than of course Irene and August.

So Serena shouldn't be that above unless he shows us something. Unfortunately GOI are featless so that doesn't help him.

No, actually, I would agree with [B]Char[/B]. God Serena tends to be downplayed by many people. In fact, many people use "circular" logic in regards to this topic (when they try to prove something by making an argument and then reversing it to prove the opposite). This is what I mean...

1. 3 Gods of Ishgar + Jura are fodders (for losing against God Serena).
2. God Serena is an average Spriggan (for beating fodders).

As you can see, there is a flaw here. Speculating one thing and using it to argue something else will just lead to even more speculation (inaccuracy).

Lets look at what happened when Ezra faught ajeel

Ezra. basically swords user cqc
Ajeel sand magic

1) Swords are useless against ajeel
2) ajeel going all out. Sand world erza a cqc fighter eyes becomes useless ajeel attacked while hiding.
conclusion
Ajeel was seriously bad matchup for Ezra

There were three out side interference
Marin made Ezra magicless allowing ajeel to do what he claim a fatal move
One guy flying between them
And Jupiter cannon.

Let start from the beginning
They exchanged some blows reacting equally to each other
Suddenly Ezra magic stopped working. She is engulfed in sand.

After x amount of energy removed
Ezra magic restored she dispels ajeel magic
She blitz ajeel but swords doesn't work on him.

someone flies and hit the ship.Ezra says she understand and blitz ajeel again
This time with water sword
Ajeel gets x1 damage
Ezra attacks again. Ajeel uses arm but still get damage around y1 amount of damage.

Ajeel dodges next hit and uses sand. Ezra dispels it.
And sand world.
Ezra eyes are useless

Ajeel sneaks behind Ezra and attacks. does y amount of damage.
And suddenly appears in front of Ezra and grabs her and drain her energy. Around let say z amount
Erza drops her sword

This is the critical point.
Ezra requires x+y+z energy drain to make her drop her swords.

Then requips into morning star.
Jupiter fires
Then three possible things happen
1) plot. Only ajeel gets hit. get z1 amount of damage. Ezra follows and uses nakagami finishes off ajeel
2) both are hit. But Ezra was ready for it. And she finishes of ajeel.
3) Ezra overpowers ajeel throws him in front of Jupiter and steps away.

assuming Nakagami dealt zz amount of damage.
Ajeel needed
X1+y1+z1+zz
To finish him off.
Since we haven't seen him yet we can easily assume that this is more than actually required to finish him. Unlike Ezra case who still had ability to fight.

Ezra with help > ajeel with help.

What happens without outside interference.
Everything remains the same except Ezra doesn't get damage or drain x.
If we assume Ezra needed atleast x+y+z to drop her swords(because she still had energy to requip twice after that.)
So erza doesn't drop her sword. And instead stabs him.
Ajeel drops her. More powered Nakagami because no x amount of damage. To nearly finish of ajeel. Possible need another blow to compensate for Jupiter
Keep in mind Ezra energy was being drained as well as injuries. So her attacking power falls alot
ajeel attacking power doesn't fall as much if at all

So yes Ezra chances of winning are higher than ajeel provided everything remains same.
But keep in mind ajeel is seriously bad matchup for Ezra

Both Ezra and ajeel had more to offer
But 90% of erza magic doesn't work on him

My assessment of the fight was that both had equal disadvantages and it became a draw. Why were their disadvantages the same? To answer this question, we need to answer these first.

Who experienced the "disadvantages" first? Erza. This is important because the person who experiences the interference first usually goes downhill faster. It makes sense because when Erza was unable to use her magic (because of Marin), Ajeel had the opportunity to drain her energy completely. As a result, it is only natural that Erza would lose in this regard.

Who experienced the more significant "disadvantages"? Ajeel. What I mean here is who suffered the worse of the two "disadvantages". Now let's not forget that Erza experienced what is called "indirect interference". Her magic abilities were taken away but no damage was done. Meanwhile, Ajeel experienced the opposite, which is called "direct interference". As we saw, he was hit by a fully charged Jupiter Cannon which not only caught him off guard but did major damage.

So going back to the original question... Were the "disadvantages" balanced for both sides? Yes. I don't think Ajeel had any more of an advantage than Erza here.

There was one thing I didn't mention that you brought up. Erza was unable to hit Ajeel because of his Sand Body. Now don't get me wrong. That was was indeed a disadvantage for Erza. But it shouldn't make much of a difference. I mean Erza has advantages too. Her magic can counter Ajeel. Also, don't forget that most of Ajeel's attacks are ground-based so the majority of his attacks were useless as well. It goes both ways.

What would happen if Serena fought three erzas and one Jura
A stomp. Ezra alone might be able to take out Serena since he has no immunity to swords or has ability to drain energy or abilty to render Ezra eyes useless
Three Ezra might be even too much for August to handle.


Where did you get that GOI are Ezra tier that serious downgrading of Ezra
Like laxus is Jura tier now. lol

Keep also in mind that goi are irrelevant so their chances of redemption is very low
While Ezra is the second most important battle character. They cannot be compared at all

Erza probably wouldn't be able to beat God Serena. Now I understand that she wouldn't have to deal with immunity from physical attacks or getting her energy drained. But with advantages, comes other disadvantages. Erza instead would have to deal with God Serena's versatility in elements. That alone would render half of her armors (Purgatory, Wind God, and Sea Empress) useless as God Serena has resistance to them. Basically, she'll be forced to cope with all the other armors she possesses (which may or may not help).

Erza being "God of Ishgar Tier" is not downgrading her at all. In fact, that is a compliment. The only reason one would think it is downgrading is if they go with the assumption that the Gods of Ishgar are fodders (which is not true).

Laxus may be above Jura as of right now. He already showed he could beat him in the GMG. What I don't understand is that you say being "God of Ishgar Tier" is downgrading, but shouldn't being on Jura's level be even worse? I don't know if you rank Laxus high or not, so maybe that is why I am misunderstanding you. However, Jura is definitely not on the same level as the Gods of Ishgar.

 

[sharkai]

No, actually, I agree with [B]Char[/B]. God Serena tends to be downplayed by many people. In fact, many people use "circular" logic in regards to this topic (when they try to prove something by making an argument and then reversing it to prove the opposite). This is what I mean...

1. 3 Gods of Ishgar + Jura are fodders (for losing against God Serena).
2. God Serena is an average Spriggan (for beating fodders).

As you can see, there is a flaw here. Speculating one thing and using it to argue something else will just lead to even more speculation (inaccuracy).



My assessment of the fight was that both had equal disadvantages and it became a draw. Why were their disadvantages the same? To answer this question, we need to answer these first.

Who experienced the "disadvantages" first? Erza. This is important because the person who experiences the interference first usually goes downhill faster. It makes sense because when Erza was unable to use her magic (because of Marin), Ajeel had the opportunity to drain her energy completely. As a result, it is only natural that Erza would lose in this regard.

Who experienced the more significant "disadvantages"? Ajeel. What I mean here is who suffered the worse of the two "disadvantages". Now let's not forget that Erza experienced what is called "indirect (passive) interference". Her magic abilities were taken away but no damage was done. Meanwhile, Ajeel experienced the opposite, which is called "direct (active) interference". As we saw, he was hit by a fully charged Jupiter Cannon that not only caught him off guard but did major damage.

So going back to the original question... Were the "disadvantages" balanced for both sides? Yes. I don't think Ajeel had any more advantage than Erza here.

There was one thing I didn't mention that you brought up. Erza was unable to hit Ajeel because of his Sand Body. Now don't get me wrong. That was was indeed a disadvantage for Erza. But that shouldn't make much of a difference. I mean Erza has advantages too. Her magic can counter Ajeel. Also, don't forget that most of Ajeel's attacks are ground-based so the majority of his attacks were useless too. It goes both ways.



Erza probably wouldn't be able to beat God Serena. Now I understand that she wouldn't have to deal with immunity from physical attacks or getting her energy drained. But with advantages, comes other disadvantages. Erza instead would have to deal with God Serena's versatility in elements. That alone would render half of her armors (Purgatory, Lightning Empress, and Sea Empress) useless as God Serena has resistance to them. Basically, she'll be forced to cope with all the other armors she possesses (which may or may not help)

Erza being "God of Ishgar Tier" is not downgrading her at all. In fact, that is a compliment. The only reason one would think it is downgrading is if they go with the assumption that the Gods of Ishgar are fodders (which is not true).

Laxus may be above Jura as of right now. He already showed he could beat him in the GMG. What I don't understand is that you say being "God of Ishgar Tier" is downgrading, but shouldn't being on Jura's level be even worse? I don't know if you rank Laxus high or not, so maybe that is why I am misunderstanding you. However, Jura is definitely not on the same level as the Gods of Ishgar.

I meant that would be extreme downgrading for lacus to be compared with Jura.

Hybrion did nothing against a springgan. Ezra took one out. So unless hybrion has done something to be placed near Ezra I will say its downgrading of Ezra.

Yes you are right about circular logic.
Let me make one for you.
1) ajeel is far above Serena.
2) erza can handle ajeel
3) thus Ezra is far above Serena.
No one should agree with this. Right?

So let us look at what is stated
1) springgan are relatively equal
2) hybrion has shown nothing on a level of any springgan. Nor can he ever hope to defeat one from what he has shown.
Thus Serena and ajeel should be around eachother.
And Ezra should be far above hybrion.

Your assessment did not include that ajeel rendering a cqc mage pretty much useless.
Also it didn't include how high you rank Jupiter cannon. I dont rank it high. to me it is a possibility that both Ezra and ajeel were hit by it.
And passive and active mean nothing because of both were hurt due to it. Unless you are saying active interference was so strong that Ezra couldn't replicate it without tiring herself
If instead of Ezra was given a free shot like ajeel was given. this fight would have been cut seriously short. In fact I also think Jupiter hurt ajeel less as compared to how much Ezra was damaged thanks to marin.

And while ajeel was compete immune to what was 90% of Ezra magic. Ezra had one move which was medium in power and could counter some ajeel moves.
So to me
Weak erza attack. useless
Medium Ezra attack. Only one available to counter and one to hurt.
Strong Ezra attack. Only Nakayami

When things get serious
Her benzukuru, armudura. useless.
Her eyes useless
Her post t's armor useless

Ajeel was not on ground which basically stopped him from the sand pit every other attack he could do. I don't think that sand pit will be above any attack he actually did against Ezra.

So how much is ajeel disadvantaged here.
Wind sword repels some his attack.
Water sword mean Ezra can actually hurt him(that is not advantage lol)
Not being able to use sand pit

And that's it.
On the other hand
Ezra disadvantage
Sand body most of Ezra attacks other than water sword and Nakagami useless
Her eyes useless
His ability to drain magic when grabbing her

Ezra has no options at all due to this match up. it would be same if she was as strong as lacus
Because she still wont have that aoe and nor that nose

To me Ezra is seriously more at disadvantage then ajeel. While ajeel only had a disadvantage of wind sword.
Jupiter cannon shouldn't be that much stronger than GMG kagura strong form. Which is canonically compared with Jupiter.
Ajeel should be able to do much more damage then that with marin help

Fight with ajeel didn't show what Ezra was capable of.
Her power unknown
Her durability unknown.

She could probably beat Wahl or Serena. Because both uses brute strength
Serena has no advantage over Ezra. Especially since Ezra is actually more versatile than he is.

 

[Char]

I get that DiMaria's teeth grind is quick, like under a second. Clapping your hands is also quick, like a second. It's just a clap. Happy stopped it and knew he had to, and was close. What if Laxus zapped DiMaria with lightning? It might not work but it's possible if he knew he had to. My point is I don't really think there is a great deal of difference in clicking your teeth and clapping, but Age Seal > Transport.

I guess you could consider that lag in this case is negligible, but think of it, the faster who casts his magic, the winner! And Dimaria doesn't even need to click her teeth she just needs to think of the activation which probably takes less time than any other hax in the series.

Why can't Laxus' magicless punches break Wahl's durability? It's still his punches, under his strength. If it's like Natsu's punches, the lightning actually enhances the power of the punch (not just magic, but momentum wise). If it's not like that, then the force in them is still enough to send Wahl flying, and kick him through a house (after using LB to enhance his momentum). All of these hits would be powerful, and it puts Wahl's durability on the top level for Spriggans so far.

I guess magic imbued punches multiply their strength by a lot of time. But that's just my wild guess. I've always thought of a lightning/fire punch as strong as 10x a magicless punch from the same user, but that may be just me. This is why I was soooo impressed at Glidartz's magicless punches, which could send anyone flying.

I think Laxus will do more damage for sure if Wahl wasn't immune, but it's not going to be a huge difference. If that's the case, then Laxus can probably mid diff every other Spriggan that doesn't have a big hax.

OK so I guess magic imbued punches being vastly superior to magicless punches is just my opinion, in yours it doesn't work like that.

But isn't DiMaria above others because none can counter her? I get what you mean, that Wahl is the only one that can counter Bradman; while only a few could stop DiMaria. But who can counter anti-magic particle body? I'm not trying to shut down your outlook, but if you live by the hax counter rule then DiMaria/Bradman should always remain above Laxus/Jellal, or even DF Natsu.

Yes, Dimaria is above others because noone can counter her + her hax is superior to others' => she can potentially beat more enemies than most of the other spriggans.

Anyone who's not a human being or who can alter the 'material' of his lungs (Wahl - Gajeel), or who's resistance to MBP is very high (Laxus) can counter Bradman. However, countering Dimaria is just a matter of Ultear, and even Ultear couldn't beat her by preventing age seal because Dimaria is vastly superior.

Dimaria will always remain above Laxus to me, unless we learn that anyone with more MP than her is immune to age seal, and end of series Laxus has gotten stronger than the average spriggan and has climbed to August/Irene or even Acnologia levels. As for MBP, I think Laxus' got a chance because of his 'immunity' to MBP.

An outcome of a fight is most important. Erza beat Ajeel under the circumstances of that fight. TO-Sherria won under the circumstances of that fight. Tenrou LFD Natsu beat Hades and combat wise was better than Hades.

Circumstances/scenarios are indeed always important to favour one or the other fighter. But the fact Erza or TO-Sherria beat their enemies does not mean they can beat their opponents on a fair 1 vs 1 at all.

Erza had the sky advantage (I think Ajeel is stronger in the ground, as he can assimilate into the sand and so on). Erza had Jupiter and she had Bisca, but we all know she'd have been beheaded otherwise.

TO-Sherria had Ultear for an age seal counter and Wendy to protect her from the most powerful of Dimaria's attacks, which still managed to break the barrier and damage her.

So, circumstances favour either one or the other character but by no means does it mean that in neutral conditions and on a 1 vs 1, Erza > Ajeel, for example.

Why is he underrated if his spells have less AoE? The spells he used are the main reason he is held in any regard - high or low. They were powerful, had sizable AoE, and he spammed them. He might be able to match Natsu, but he certainly didn't show it. If he could match Natsu's power then he'd be as strong as Natsu. Power output doesn't change just because you have more elements. I will say that God Serena would be a more rounded wizard with having more, but I wouldn't say he's more powerful.

God Serena's spells didn't prove AoE worthy of being compared with BDKM Natsu and that's why several people downplay him to the extent of saying he'd lose to Natsu.

I believe AoE is not everything there's to an attack, but I believe the fact he was capable of spamming 'less strong attacks' a better feat than throwing a powerful roar at Bluenote and oneshotting him.

Also, we don't know the extent of true Serena's attacks' output. For all we know, he was being casual.

So we just selectively omit this because why? All it looks like it serves is to hype Bradman's offensive prowess. His curses he used are not enough to KO Levy, that is all. Essentially, Bradman achieved against Levy what God Serena achieve against the GoI. Gajeel was able to keep fighting, so I can only say it all points to Bradman's offence not being particularly strong (well the offence he used, including his best curse).

That's making Levy a tad too durable and severely downplaying Bradman, isn't it? I mean, how can you justify she doesn't die after breathing MBP for an extended period of time?

Natsu used a full-powered roar imo. But I doubt God Serena was playing around. He went serious (he powered up), his eyes went all black (Idk why), and used his best magic. The only thing I will say is that God Serena used low-end spells, rather than roars/secret arts. That is where the hype for Serena should come from, not that he was playing around.

Hmmm he went serious, but not all out. To me, he was just spamming mildly powerful attacks as in toying with them. I guess we'll never know

Natsu's roar will be more effective than Serena's in a battle though. If Serena was spamming against Natsu, the roar would overpower any of Serena's spells. Sure they could achive the same result, but Natsu's is a oneshot and would plow through any of Serena's spells. (Assuming Natsu's is acutally stronger).

You're right I guess. One attack with more concentrated power > three attacks with less power but outputting more power in the end.

Still, I believe God Serena was capable of much more, and if he wasn't then Natsu is definetely stronger than him. Still, God Serena could eat that roar!

Are you talking about Natsu's FD Iron Fist or Demolishing Strike?

The attack that Natsu has that is analogous to Hellflame is FD Iron Fist. Dragon Slayer techniques are in a way an imitation of what dragon's do. The Iron Fist is probably Natsu's most used move, it's a punch. The biggest one to date is the one he used against Zeref's fodders. Both Natsu and Serena gather power in the same way for these 2 attacks, but Natsu's was bigger. I can call it even for argument sake, meaning base Natsu's attacks are equivalent to God Serena's DS attacks.

When I was putting Natsu above God Serena I was probably thinking of demolishing strike (the one used to defeat the war god). But yeah, I get what you mean. Also, think, however, that if I were Natsu and I had to fight 1000 enemies, I'd try to expand the AoE of my attacks but reducing its intensity, while if I'm fighting 4 enemies I'd reduce the AoE and I'd powerup the intensity, so IMO AoE does not equate to potence.

@sharkai how is Ajeel a bad matchup for Erza when Erza's got wind and water elements among her disposal? Ajeel was just superior. He proved to be slightly faster, immune to physical attacks non-water/wind imbued, and a cqc expert as much as Erza was. The moment Ajeel decides he's gonna end the battle, he just takes her by the neck and dehydrates her, done.

I agree with @SaberToothFan and @XXEliteXXAceXX in their latest posts, I couldn't have attempted to explain it better!

I meant that would be extreme downgrading for lacus to be compared with Jura.

Hybrion did nothing against a springgan. Ezra took one out. So unless hybrion has done something to be placed near Ezra I will say its downgrading of Ezra.

Laxus is extremely superior to Jura but saying Erza took one Spriggan out is just not accurate.

Your reasoning is that all spriggans have around the same amount of power. In that case anything you say is going to make sense to you and to the group who thinks so. Since Erza performed better against Ajeel than the GoI against God Serena, and the two spriggans should be equal, then Erza is above the 3 GoI+Jura.

That's not my logic though.

 

[sharkai]

@sharkai how is Ajeel a bad matchup for Erza when Erza's got wind and water elements among her disposal? Ajeel was just superior. He proved to be slightly faster, immune to physical attacks non-water/wind imbued, and a cqc expert as much as Erza was. The moment Ajeel decides he's gonna end the battle, he just takes her by the neck and dehydrates her, done.



Laxus is extremely superior to Jura but saying Erza took one Spriggan out is just not accurate.

Your reasoning is that all spriggans have around the same amount of power. In that case anything you say is going to make sense to you and to the group who thinks so. Since Erza performed better against Ajeel than the GoI against God Serena, and the two spriggans should be equal, then Erza is above the 3 GoI+Jura.

That's not my logic though.

Water allowed Ezra to hurt him. That is not an advantage. That like saying laxus had a punch so he had an advantage over Wahl.
Wind gave her some advantage that is correct
Ajeel wasnt faster he couldn't react to two of her blitz. While he had to hide from Ezra to land a hit. Hiding ability is also a magical advantage which counters Ezra perfectly
Sorry, that is not how fight goes here
Ezra could just go nakagami and one shot him. Would you accept this? no
Ajeel needed to dehydrate her with outside help and injure and then sneak attack on her to grab her throat and make her drop her swords.
This is due to magically advantage not because he is stronger.

Laxus is extremely superior to Jura yes.
And Ezra is extremely superior to hybrrion

And yes Ezra took out a out a sprinnggan
She had help sure
But so did he
And his magic is counter to Ezra magic. Ezra only had two attacks that hurt him
And maybe his ground based attacks weren't available (keep in mind he did assimilate into sand in sand world)
But that would just make them equal.

You are correct about my reasoning.
Your reasoning is however little funnier
Your making an assumption
That Serena is stronger than average springgan. Yeah?
And you are making another assumption to prove your previous assumption
That goi are really strong (Ezra level)
And since Serena defeated them thus he is above average
Ajeel > Ezra
Serena > 3 x Ezra.
Thus Serena >> Ajeel
Unfortunately you don't have proof for either

From plot point of view
You hope the goi will redeem themselves at the cost of the main heros.
That is also pretty much unlikely to happen

 

[Brandish μ]

I actually disagree with Erza being a bad match up for Ajeel. I'm not going to list the other factors in the fight (distractions, Jupiter, Marin, being in the air etc) - I am only going to compare the magic part.

Ajeel's hax allows him to turn things into sand. The 2 elemental counters for this are water and wind magic. Water hardens sand, and wind blows it. The former allows Erza to hit Ajeel, the latter is effective defensively against Ajeel's sand attacks. But all of her other offence sans Nakagami are useless.

Erza is disadvantaged by having to figure out how to get around Ajeel's sand.

Ajeel is disadvantaged due to ego and knowledge (this really shouldn't be a disadvantage - it's his fault). He was cocky, and he thought it was impossible for a sword to do damage to him.

Both wizards were able to get over their opponents counters. Firstly Erza has wind and water swords, and a powerful finisher which voids hax in Nakagami Starlight. This got around sand-body. Ajeel on the otherhand overcame Erza's countermeasures with sheer power in the form of Sandworld.

 

[sharkai]

I actually disagree with Erza being a bad match up for Ajeel. I'm not going to list the other factors in the fight (distractions, Jupiter, Marin, being in the air etc) - I am only going to compare the magic part.

Ajeel's hax allows him to turn things into sand. The 2 elemental counters for this are water and wind magic. Water hardens sand, and wind blows it. The former allows Erza to hit Ajeel, the latter is effective defensively against Ajeel's sand attacks. But all of her other offence sans Nakagami are useless.

Erza is disadvantaged by having to figure out how to get around Ajeel's sand.

Ajeel is disadvantaged due to ego and knowledge (this really shouldn't be a disadvantage - it's his fault). He was cocky, and he thought it was impossible for a sword to do damage to him.

Both wizards were able to get over their opponents counters. Firstly Erza has wind and water swords, and a powerful finisher which voids hax in Nakagami Starlight. This got around sand-body. Ajeel on the otherhand overcame Erza's countermeasures with sheer power in the form of Sandworld.

What is counter for sand world in which Ezra cant use her eyes.
How do you rank wind and water attacks compared to her other attacks like benzikuru or armudura
If you rank them water and wind considerably below benzukuru then how can you say that ajeel stronger than Ezra
Since his strongest attack can overcome Ezra mediocre moves
While her strongest attacks are countered by ajeel not doing anything.
How is this not a disadvantage

Ajeel over coming Ezra countermeasures is the same way Ezra over came ajeel sand body with Nakagami

 

[Brandish μ]

I guess magic imbued punches multiply their strength by a lot of time. But that's just my wild guess. I've always thought of a lightning/fire punch as strong as 10x a magicless punch from the same user, but that may be just me. This is why I was soooo impressed at Glidartz's magicless punches, which could send anyone flying.

10x's might be a tad high... is there any reasoning for that?

Gildarts crash punches aren't enough to overpower Bluenote in CQC, but Empyrean yea.

Dimaria will always remain above Laxus to me, unless we learn that anyone with more MP than her is immune to age seal, and end of series Laxus has gotten stronger than the average spriggan and has climbed to August/Irene or even Acnologia levels. As for MBP, I think Laxus' got a chance because of his 'immunity' to MBP.

I agree with Age Seal I'd always rate her at least equal to someone like Laxus, or above. Natsu w/DF is already above them both imo, so I couldn't rate DiMaria above Natsu.

Circumstances/scenarios are indeed always important to favour one or the other fighter. But the fact Erza or TO-Sherria beat their enemies does not mean they can beat their opponents on a fair 1 vs 1 at all.

Yes that's what I'm saying. If you factor in the whole fight then that is the most important thing. If Erza with help beats Ajeel then that's the most important factor, well if we're ranking people as combatants.

God Serena's spells didn't prove AoE worthy of being compared with BDKM Natsu and that's why several people downplay him to the extent of saying he'd lose to Natsu.

I believe AoE is not everything there's to an attack, but I believe the fact he was capable of spamming 'less strong attacks' a better feat than throwing a powerful roar at Bluenote and oneshotting him.

Also, we don't know the extent of true Serena's attacks' output. For all we know, he was being casual.

Well wouldn't the AoE be somewhat indicative of the power in the attacks? There isn't even the potency argument for God Serena when compared to Natsu's base and FDK attacks.

I agree AoE is not everything, but with Fire dragon slayer magic I think a lot can be determined purely by AoE. We've seen enough from Natsu this series to have a good idea. Where my assumptions become shaky is comparing Purgatory DS magic to Natsu's fire DS. They might be a lot different, making AoE comparisons useless.

Well God Serena has a level of MP that would make those attacks look casual. Laxus can drop a nuke casually, and Wahl can spam Assault attacks casually. It's probably hard for them to truly exert themselves in a few spells.

That's making Levy a tad too durable and severely downplaying Bradman, isn't it? I mean, how can you justify she doesn't die after breathing MBP for an extended period of time?

I can only go by the panels. I mean Hiro could be inconsistent, it happens, but right now I have no reason to think Bradman is stronger than what he was.

Still, I believe God Serena was capable of much more, and if he wasn't then Natsu is definetely stronger than him. Still, God Serena could eat that roar!

I do agree Serena has more to show. And yes he'd eat the roar (just showing that roar > his spells).

When I was putting Natsu above God Serena I was probably thinking of demolishing strike (the one used to defeat the war god). But yeah, I get what you mean. Also, think, however, that if I were Natsu and I had to fight 1000 enemies, I'd try to expand the AoE of my attacks but reducing its intensity, while if I'm fighting 4 enemies I'd reduce the AoE and I'd powerup the intensity, so IMO AoE does not equate to potence.

That's true, Natsu did want to get Zeref's attention. But he made that FD fist with the same amount of time it took Serena.

 

[Char]

Water allowed Ezra to hurt him. That is not an advantage. That like saying laxus had a punch so he had an advantage over Wahl.
Wind gave her some advantage that is correct
Ajeel wasnt faster he couldn't react to two of her blitz. While he had to hide from Ezra to land a hit. Hiding ability is also a magical advantage which counters Ezra perfectly
Sorry, that is not how fight goes here
Ezra could just go nakagami and one shot him. Would you accept this? no
Ajeel needed to dehydrate her with outside help and injure and then sneak attack on her to grab her throat and make her drop her swords.
This is due to magically advantage not because he is stronger.

Laxus is extremely superior to Jura yes.
And Ezra is extremely superior to hybrrion

And yes Ezra took out a out a sprinnggan
She had help sure
But so did he
And his magic is counter to Ezra magic. Ezra only had two attacks that hurt him
And maybe his ground based attacks weren't available (keep in mind he did assimilate into sand in sand world)
But that would just make them equal.

You are correct about my reasoning.
Your reasoning is however little funnier
Your making an assumption
That Serena is stronger than average springgan. Yeah?
And you are making another assumption to prove your previous assumption
That goi are really strong (Ezra level)
And since Serena defeated them thus he is above average
Ajeel > Ezra
Serena > 3 x Ezra.
Thus Serena >> Ajeel
Unfortunately you don't have proof for either

From plot point of view
You hope the goi will redeem themselves at the cost of the main heros.
That is also pretty much unlikely to happen

You need to understand Erza can't go nakagami whenever he wants and speedblitz/oneshot him. Otherwise, she'd have done that the moment she understood she was facing an enemy she couldn't beat in any other possible way.

She only used Nakagami when he was hurt and immobilized. That's because she knew that armor spends a lot of MP and she couldn't afford to fail. She acknowledged he's fast and she cannot afford to miss.

If you analyze the battle carefully, it's true that Ajeel had to use his sandworld, that's when he was pushed to being serious and so we can say Erza pushed him to a battle in which Ajeel would've won mid difficulty hadn't it been for Bisca and Jupiter.

But it is rather clear to me, and to 99% of the fandom, that Ajeel was superior when he just grabbed her neck, began to dehydrate her and was about to behead her.

It's not that Erza is a natural counter, as Ultear was for Dimaria; but Erza is a depowered version of God Serena: she's got a wide variety of elements but her attacks are on a different scale if compared to a Spriggan. If Erza was superior to Ajeel she could've slashed him dead but her slash only gave him an unimportant injury.

Are you so sure Erza would beat Ajeel in other conditions? Say, Both in the ground, 1 vs 1, no help for any of the two... IMHO, there'd be a preamble/trade of blows then when both are mildly injured Ajeel is going to get serious and is going to sandworld her to death/dehydrate her to death/something along those lines.

My reasoning is not funnier than yours. As a matter of fact my reasoning is the 99% of the fandom's. I don't think anyone would actually defend that Erza is anywhere close to Ajeel...

As for Serena being stronger than the average spriggan, you need to understand either you vastly downplay the GoI to class Serena equal to the other spriggans, or you hype Serena to give the benefit of the doubt to the GoI. I'm from the latter, you're from the former. It's fine. I know I don't have proof and I know it's unlikely for the GoI to redeem themselves but without feats enough to determine otherwise we'll never know the truth unless a databook comes out or something like that.

10x's might be a tad high... is there any reasoning for that?

Maybe I was exaggerating. My reasoning is that, since unlike Dragon Ball characters, they do not specifically train their body but rather they rely on their magic, and although many mages have been shown to be proficient in cqc, I'd say bare punches from the strongest characters should be city block level at most, while magic powered could even be mountain level (Glidartz) or even island level (powerscaling here). But again, that's vague reasoning I guess.

Gildarts crash punches aren't enough to overpower Bluenote in CQC, but Empyrean yea.

That would also favor my reasoning. As in, Glidartz bare punches, which should be astonishingly powerful, won't hurt BN whereas magic-imbued punches will oneshot him.

I agree with Age Seal I'd always rate her at least equal to someone like Laxus, or above. Natsu w/DF is already above them both imo, so I couldn't rate DiMaria above Natsu.

I have to agree here, if we don't apply the NLF, then DF Natsu should by hype and powerscaling be around the level of August (more or less) and then his MP should be superior to Dimaria's by which it's likely Dimaria can't age seal him.

Yes that's what I'm saying. If you factor in the whole fight then that is the most important thing. If Erza with help beats Ajeel then that's the most important factor, well if we're ranking people as combatants.

Right, but for me these are group battles, and it's another story. 1 vs 1 battles are good for determining who's, in general, for classing characters into tiers. So, we could say that Bisca(+Jupiter) and Erza are a team that's spriggan level.

Well wouldn't the AoE be somewhat indicative of the power in the attacks? There isn't even the potency argument for God Serena when compared to Natsu's base and FDK attacks.

Well imagine a sea wave and then imagine a water jet cutter. A water jet cutter is going to kill me if he hits me in a vital organ or it cuts me in half, but a sea wave is not going to do much to me, or maybe if it is very big it drowns me, but I mean, it's not going to hurt me phisically.

A sea wave has many times the AoE of a water jet cutter. So that's pretty much my point. Also, compare very big AoE bursts with Dimaria's laser. It's clear maybe big AoE bursts are going to hurt you if they explode close to you but that laser is gonna pierce you to death.

So no, IMHO, AoE =/= power.

I agree AoE is not everything, but with Fire dragon slayer magic I think a lot can be determined purely by AoE. We've seen enough from Natsu this series to have a good idea. Where my assumptions become shaky is comparing Purgatory DS magic to Natsu's fire DS. They might be a lot different, making AoE comparisons useless.

Well but Natsu's magic (and fire DS magic for that matter) is not just about 'fire'. Fire does not 'hurt', it burns. It doesn't burst or create explosions, you cannot concentrate its power in one spot or expand it unless you've got a proper gas or you apply pressure so that it explodes and so on, do you get my point?

There's something else to Natsu's magic than just fire. There's the ability to compress it and release it making bursts, the ability to expand it in large AoE or to concentrate it in a massive roar...

I guess it's hard to compare.

Well God Serena has a level of MP that would make those attacks look casual. Laxus can drop a nuke casually, and Wahl can spam Assault attacks casually. It's probably hard for them to truly exert themselves in a few spells.

IMO God Serena may've spent 3% of his magic power gauge by these 3 attacks, but hey, wild guess again. After all Spriggan MP is said to be just on a whole other level.

I can only go by the panels. I mean Hiro could be inconsistent, it happens, but right now I have no reason to think Bradman is stronger than what he was.

Well he was said to posess all the curses so he can just use haxy macro, alegria or memento mori can't he? This puts him very high on the ranking.

But yeah, if he didn't use it it's because he's dumb, cocky or overzealous and that downplays him.

That's true, Natsu did want to get Zeref's attention. But he made that FD fist with the same amount of time it took Serena.

Natsu's become as powerful as to be able to mold his magic into large AoE-covering attacks or concentrated attacks, but I'm not sure to how extent his wide AoE-covering attacks are very powerful, or just try to encompass more area.

 

[Brandish μ]

I'd put God Serena on Natsu's tier, the dude casually stomped the GoI, it's impressive no matter which way you slice it. He also tanked all of their attacks with hardly any problems until Hyberion stepped in and even that he broke out of it the second he got serious. I'd generally assume that each of the GoI are at least Erza-tier, their hype alone as the 3 strongest wizards on the continent should put them there. Of course there are a handful of mages stronger (strangely all but one come from Fairy Tail....) but outside of that handful they're the elite and Serena roflstomped them casually, and then proceeded to wreck even harder when he went serious. I honestly can't see base Natsu crushing the GoI that badly, FDKM mode is another story though.

That's fair enough, God Serena is the only dude who smashed opponents from the Spriggans, and they were some of Isghal's best. I rate Erza better than Hyberion in a fight, but it's not like I'd expect Erza alone to beat Serena. She might push him to DS magic by herself. Yes it's very strange they come from FT I think God Serena has advantages over Natsu MP wise (definitely) and likely in durability too. So I think base Natsu can equalise Serena in offence, but not overall.

I wouldn't call Bradman's offense not particularly strong when he was destroying his natural counter. The only reason Gajeel survived until Over Skelter was because of Levy, she dispelled Bradman's Second Seal which was draining Gajeel of his life and Bradman expressed shock when both of them escaped Over Skelter (this fight was such bs, it didn't even explain how they escaped -_-) after he said that it's inescapable. Levy was a massive plot hole in that fight, Gajeel could survive thanks to his Iron Lungs but Levy? She apparently tanked being infected by MBP's, which is strange considering how her durability has been before. As for Bradman not using his full set of curses, I put that down to him toying with Gajeevy, he knew that neither could touch him and decided to have fun, right before the fight started he said that he hasn't fought for real due to his MBP's killing too quickly.

Well I mean not particularly strong for a Spriggan-tier. It's not going to be Serena level, but I'd put it around DiMaria's Chronos attacks.

It's true Levy did help with the second seal, but they still took on all the curses that came (Levy also helped with Torafusa's Black water). I understand it might seem BS how they can escape, but they did, so I assume that the could either dodge and/or endure it. Levy, well I can see your point and Char's too. But it might just means she didn't take on as much, or MBP's aren't that big of a deal. I definitely wouldn't call it toying around with Gajevy if he used his strongest curse.

 

[sharkai]

You need to understand Erza can't go nakagami whenever he wants and speedblitz/oneshot him. Otherwise, she'd have done that the moment she understood she was facing an enemy she couldn't beat in any other possible way.

She only used Nakagami when he was hurt and immobilized. That's because she knew that armor spends a lot of MP and she couldn't afford to fail. She acknowledged he's fast and she cannot afford to miss.

If you analyze the battle carefully, it's true that Ajeel had to use his sandstorm hiding magic where he becomes "a god", that's when he was pushed to being serious and so we can say Erza pushed him to a battle in which Ajeel would've won mid difficulty hadn't it been for Bisca and Jupiter.

But it is rather clear to me, and to 99% of the fandom, that Ajeel was superior when he just grabbed her neck, began to dehydrate her and was about to behead her.

It's not that Erza is a natural counter, as Ultear was for Dimaria; but Erza is a depowered version of God Serena: she's got a wide variety of elements but her attacks are on a different scale if compared to a Spriggan. If Erza was superior to Ajeel she could've slashed him dead but her slash only gave him an unimportant ijury.

Are you so sure Erza would beat Ajeel in other conditions? Say, Both in the ground, 1 vs 1, no help for any of the two... IMHO, there'd be a preamble/trade of blows then when both are mildly injured Ajeel is going to get serious and is going to sandworld her to death/dehydrate her to death/something along those lines.

My reasoning is not funnier than mine. As a matter of fact my reasoning is the 99% of the fandom's. I don't think anyone would actually defend that Erza is anywhere close to Ajeel...

As for Serena being stronger than the average spriggan, you need to understand either you vastly downplay the GoI to class Serena equal to the other spriggans, or you hype Serena to give the benefit of the doubt to the GoI. I'm from the latter, you're from the former. It's fine. I know I don't have proof and I know it's unlikely for the GoI to redeem themselves but without feats enough to determine otherwise we'll never know the truth unless a databook comes out or something like that.

Actually it was draining pr t's. Ezra used it after being drained alot so I do think she can use it from the start now.
Hold on. you think Ezra medium ranked attacks should finish off ajeel. While his medium ranked attacks did same to Ezra. hell Serena medium attacks didn't finish off Jura.
Also Serena attacks are nowhere near aoe scale of ajeel.

I think Ezra is in same ball park as him because her medium ranked attacks did same damage to him as his medium ranks attacked did to her.
I think that is fair.
I don't think Ezra can beat ajeel if you change the scene and take out ajeel arrogance
Just the way I don't think laxus can beat Wahl if you give Wahl some iq points

This is because both fairy tail mages disadvantaged against their respective opponents
They are not weaker then them.

So if all you remove is outside interferences and nothing else changes
Then I can assume that Ezra need to be drained that much and injured that much to drop her swords. otherwise she will stab him and finish him off.
So Ezra chances are higher of victory.
Think of it like this.
If Ezra was as strong as laxus wont she break from his grip.
Same thing, if Ezra has more energy she can break his grip by stabbing him.

Unfortunately fandom hate Ezra. That is how ajeel became the weakest springgan
Even though he can turn metal and Wahl to sand just by touching them

How do you rank Serena attack above Ezra attack
Three Serena ds attacks managed to defeat already injured goi and Jura
Ezra required almost same amount to put down ajeel

I said your funnier when talking about Serena. basically assumption being used to prove an assumption
That's what I found funny

 

[Ebony Maw]

Yes it's very strange they come from FT

Plot confirmed.

Well I mean not particularly strong for a Spriggan-tier. It's not going to be Serena level, but I'd put it around DiMaria's Chronos attacks.

It's true Levy did help with the second seal, but they still took on all the curses that came (Levy also helped with Torafusa's Black water). I understand it might seem BS how they can escape, but they did, so I assume that the could either dodge and/or endure it. Levy, well I can see your point and Char's too. But it might just means she didn't take on as much, or MBP's aren't that big of a deal. I definitely wouldn't call it toying around with Gajevy if he used his strongest curse.

Yeah "toying" wasn't the best word, I meant that he wasn't going all out. As for them escaping Over Skelter, Bradman seemed incredibly surprised so that may literally have been the first time it's happened. About Levy and the MBP's, I don't think it would have been so weird had it not been insta-killing Sabertooth members in the previous chapter, right now Levy's survival just feels out of place IMO.

Apart from those few points I agree with your entire post.

 

[Brandish μ]

That would also favor my reasoning. As in, Glidartz bare punches, which should be astonishingly powerful, won't hurt BN whereas magic-imbued punches will oneshot him.

Gildarts used magic imbued punches against Bluenote in CQC in much the same way Laxus using Lightning magic in his punches. Empyrean is like Laxus using Red Lightning.

Well imagine a sea wave and then imagine a water jet cutter. A water jet cutter is going to kill me if he hits me in a vital organ or it cuts me in half, but a sea wave is not going to do much to me, or maybe if it is very big it drowns me, but I mean, it's not going to hurt me phisically.

A sea wave has many times the AoE of a water jet cutter. So that's pretty much my point. Also, compare very big AoE bursts with Dimaria's laser. It's clear maybe big AoE bursts are going to hurt you if they explode close to you but that laser is gonna pierce you to death.

So no, IMHO, AoE =/= power.

I understand what you're saying here and I agree with that analogy. But it's not the same as comparing dragon slayer magics of the same element. When you compare Natsu's Fire DS and Serena's Purgatory, it's like comparing 2 sea waves.

Well but Natsu's magic (and fire DS magic for that matter) is not just about 'fire'. Fire does not 'hurt', it burns. It doesn't burst or create explosions, you cannot concentrate its power in one spot or expand it unless you've got a proper gas or you apply pressure so that it explodes and so on, do you get my point?

Sorry, I don't understand. Fire magic is something I doubt follows the rules of physics as we know, because Hiro might not know, and Earthland doesn't have to be Earth. The only thing I can really gleam from the manga is that Natsu's spells present in a certain way (size/shape/temperature) and cause a certain effect (damage/destruction etc).

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 3, 2016 ---

What is counter for sand world in which Ezra cant use her eyes.
How do you rank wind and water attacks compared to her other attacks like benzikuru or armudura

Ajeel over coming Ezra countermeasures is the same way Ezra over came ajeel sand body with Nakagami

Erza couldn't counter Sandworld, it was out of her league. The best she could do was requip into Morning Star as a Hail Mary for Bisca's Jupiter. It worked in the end.

I'd say that God Armour would definitely be up there with her best requips like Benisakura. Nakagami is still the most powerful.

Well Erza also needed the opportunity too, which Jupiter gave. But yes Nakagami can counter Sand Body, that's for sure.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 3, 2016 ---

Plot confirmed.

Yea I think it's hard to deny plot driving the power inflation, well FT > everyone. Even though they definitely would have trained more than anyone, it's still hard to believe some of the ridiculous levels people are at. But it is what it is

Yeah "toying" wasn't the best word, I meant that he wasn't going all out. As for them escaping Over Skelter, Bradman seemed incredibly surprised so that may literally have been the first time it's happened. About Levy and the MBP's, I don't think it would have been so weird had it not been insta-killing Sabertooth members in the previous chapter, right now Levy's survival just feels out of place IMO.

Like with Serena and his 8 elements, I think it's hard for Spriggan's to look like they're going all out. But I think Bradman is closer to being all out, given he used the third seal/skelter.

I can definitely see your point about Levy. Yourself/Char are somewhat convincing me it's an inconsistent feat for MBP effects... just so there can be a Gajevy farewell. Unless Levy meant that the MBP's were going through her skin and not her mask, which means she still would have taken on less MBP's than anyone with the mask on.

 

[sharkai]

Gildarts used magic imbued punches against Bluenote in CQC in much the same way Laxus using Lightning magic in his punches. Empyrean is like Laxus using Red Lightning.



I understand what you're saying here and I agree with that analogy. But it's not the same as comparing dragon slayer magics of the same element. When you compare Natsu's Fire DS and Serena's Purgatory, it's like comparing 2 sea waves.



Sorry, I don't understand. Fire magic is something I doubt follows the rules of physics as we know, because Hiro might not know, and Earthland doesn't have to be Earth. The only thing I can really gleam from the manga is that Natsu's spells present in a certain way (size/shape/temperature) and cause a certain effect (damage/destruction etc).

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Jul 3, 2016 ---

Erza couldn't counter Sandworld, it was out of her league. The best she could do was requip into Morning Star as a Hail Mary for Bisca's Jupiter. It worked in the end.

I'd say that God Armour would definitely be up there with her best requips like Benisakura. Nakagami is still the most powerful.

Well Erza also needed the opportunity too, which Jupiter gave. But yes Nakagami can counter Sand Body, that's for sure.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 3, 2016 ---

Yea I think it's hard to deny plot driving the power inflation, well FT > everyone. Even though they definitely would have trained more than anyone, it's still hard to believe some of the ridiculous levels people are at. But it is what it is



Like with Serena and his 8 elements, I think it's hard for Spriggan's to look like they're going all out. But I think Bradman is closer to being all out, given he used the third seal/skelter.

I can definitely see your point about Levy. Yourself/Char are somewhat convincing me it's an inconsistent feat for MBP effects... just so there can be a Gajevy farewell. Unless Levy meant that the MBP's were going through her skin and not her mask, which means she still would have taken on less MBP's than anyone with the mask on.

My point is sand world was not out her league because of power. if she had wind armor equivalent of god armor. She would have handled it.
Basically medium ranked move of Ezra was over powered by ajeel strongest move.
Why is no one mentioning it.
This an example of magical advantage

 

[Ebony Maw]

Yea I think it's hard to deny plot driving the power inflation, well FT > everyone. Even though they definitely would have trained more than anyone, it's still hard to believe some of the ridiculous levels people are at. But it is what it is

Honestly it doesn't even annoy me, it's more funny then anything. The only bit that annoyed me a little was the fact that the GoI were overtaken by most FT members through... 1 year of training. GG Hiro. I'm actually OK with Laxus and Jellal doing that, Jellal was a wizard saint at 19 years old and half of his MP and I've always held Laxus as his equal.

Like with Serena and his 8 elements, I think it's hard for Spriggan's to look like they're going all out. But I think Bradman is closer to being all out, given he used the third seal/skelter.

I can definitely see your point about Levy. Yourself/Char are somewhat convincing me it's an inconsistent feat for MBP effects... just so there can be a Gajevy farewell. Unless Levy meant that the MBP's were going through her skin and not her mask, which means she still would have taken on less MBP's than anyone with the mask on.

I think Bradman was closer to going all out than holding back, he did enter his etherious/3rd Seal form after all. Though he could have used more curses like Sensation and Macro so I don't think he was fully going all out.

 

[Brandish μ]

My point is sand world was not out her league because of power. if she had wind armor equivalent of god armor. She would have handled it.
Basically medium ranked move of Ezra was over powered by ajeel strongest move.
Why is no one mentioning it.
This an example of magical advantage

Erza tried to blow away the sand in Sandworld but it only helped for a second, there was too much sand. And she is using Wind God Armour.

There isn't anything Erza can do, she simply lacks the AoE to stop something like Sandworld which is Magnolia plus. This doesn't downgrade Erza, it just means that she can't deal with it, and tbh not many can.

 

[Rain Cloud]

Why can't Laxus' magicless punches break Wahl's durability? It's still his punches, under his strength. If it's like Natsu's punches, the lightning actually enhances the power of the punch (not just magic, but momentum wise). If it's not like that, then the force in them is still enough to send Wahl flying, and kick him through a house (after using LB to enhance his momentum). All of these hits would be powerful, and it puts Wahl's durability on the top level for Spriggans so far

You try punching through steel beams with your bare hands and let us know how it goes lol. If a few punches boosted by some magic is enough to make a person top-tier spriggan durability than I'd hate to see the rest.

Honestly it doesn't even annoy me, it's more funny then anything. The only bit that annoyed me a little was the fact that the GoI were overtaken by most FT members through... 1 year of training. GG Hiro. I'm actually OK with Laxus and Jellal doing that, Jellal was a wizard saint at 19 years old and half of his MP and I've always held Laxus as his equal.

Completely agree. In GMG, Jura was said to be a clear cut underneath the GOI no matter what he did (over 7 years) who were shown to be a clear cut below WS#1 God Serena. Erza & Mira were a clear cut or two below Jura. To imagine everyone in FT suddenly advancing past these multiple gaps in just one year to put up a fight against the people equal to ishgar's strongest is pretty low-quality writing imo lol. The only solution I can think of is

God Serena >>>> Jacob/Ajeel/other non-laxus/jellal opponents.