Shounen Dragon Ball Super

[kkck]

I wonder if SSB is sort of an intermediate state for goku and vegeta. So far in DBS there have been 3 introduced forms so to speak. First there is the super saiyan god. Which made goku a somewhat relevant opponent to beerus. Then there is the saiyan beyond god. The form from what I gather uses merely a part of the power of a super saiyan god. Thus the SBG is inferior to the SSG. Then the SSB which is a SBG that transforms into a super saiyan. What I am thinking is that goku and vegeta will eventually master the super saiyan god power fully and their base form will not just be a part of a god's power but rather they will have the full power of one. And then on top of that they transform into super saiyans. Super saiyan red anyone?

 

[XXGenesis]

I wonder if SSB is sort of an intermediate state for goku and vegeta. So far in DBS there have been 3 introduced forms so to speak. First there is the super saiyan god. Which made goku a somewhat relevant opponent to beerus. Then there is the saiyan beyond god. The form from what I gather uses merely a part of the power of a super saiyan god. Thus the SBG is inferior to the SSG. Then the SSB which is a SBG that transforms into a super saiyan. What I am thinking is that goku and vegeta will eventually master the super saiyan god power fully and their base form will not just be a part of a god's power but rather they will have the full power of one. And then on top of that they transform into super saiyans. Super saiyan red anyone?

What are you talking about Kckk??
There are no 3 forms..There's only 2 SSG (Red) & SSB. SSBG isn't a real thing; its part of DBU inconsistency

Show me a picture or a cannon description & definition of Super Sayain Beyond God. It's all DBU folklore & Hersey.

I challenege you to show me a scan or refer me to a manga page in which they were in this form of super sayain beyond God?

Let me explain why this "form" is just silly & all non-cannon wank.....SSBG is the idea that *Base Goku & Vegeta are stronger than SSG (RED) but weaker than SSB, & the Ki they are using is God Ki just in base mode transformations ...Seriously think about how dumb that is; Because we would never know if they are using God Ki unless notified in the dailougue; Also that would leave it as a middle level with SSB being the Super Sayin aspect of it. **This is how it was intended to be; but since DBS is such a linear work of art, it's better to just show Vegeta & Goku as SSB & say bam they are using God Ki now. Which is the status Quo...

They don't ever use God Ki unless in 2 forms SSG (Red) or SSB..This is the biggest part of the argument..We were led to believe they can or still use God Ki even in their base forms & because of certain dialogue we believed this was some kind of form or suttin....No it's not a form & no they don't use God Ki in their base form.

All this is due to inconsistency....Because Vegeta & Goku shouldn't need to go SSB all the time if they can use God Ki in base which should make em stronger than most

 

[kkck]

What are you talking about Kckk??
There are no 3 forms..There's only 2 SSG (Red) & SSB. SSBG isn't a real thing; its part of DBU inconsistency

Show me a picture or a cannon description & definition of Super Sayain Beyond God. It's all DBU folklore & Hersey.

I challenege you to show me a scan or refer me to a manga page in which they were in this form of super sayain beyond God?

Let me explain why this "form" is just silly & all non-cannon wank.....SSBG is the idea that *Base Goku & Vegeta are stronger than SSG (RED) but weaker than SSB, & the Ki they are using is God Ki just in base mode transformations ...Seriously think about how dumb that is; Because we would never know if they are using God Ki unless notified in the dailougue; Also that would leave it as a middle level with SSB being the Super Sayin aspect of it. **This is how it was intended to be; but since DBS is such a linear work of art, it's better to just show Vegeta & Goku as SSB & say bam they are using God Ki now. Which is the status Quo...

They don't ever use God Ki unless in 2 forms SSG (Red) or SSB..This is the biggest part of the argument..We were led to believe they can or still use God Ki even in their base forms & because of certain dialogue we believed this was some kind of form or suttin....No it's not a form & no they don't use God Ki in their base form.

All this is due to inconsistency....Because Vegeta & Goku shouldn't need to go SSB all the time if they can use God Ki in base which should make em stronger than most

I use saiyan beyond god because it's in the wiki but I don't think the name itself makes much of a difference to the discussion. As far as it being a form though, the manga and anime give more than enough context for that. How is it that they are so strong in base form if they are not using some measure of god ki? Going by what berus says, goku in base form before their first fight would not be able to defeat frieza. However a while later goku is able to fight with frieza without using SSB even though first form frieza outclassed SS gohan. So even if the name is not cannon and whatnot, they are clearly doing something to be so insanely powerful in their base forms.

That said, I am not entire sure the implication here is that SSBG is stronger than SSG.

As for the bold part, I don't think that is an issue at all. It would be a similar situation to OP with armor haki for instance. So yeah, we would have to be told in some form or another to know what they are doing in their base forms.

 

[XXGenesis]

I use saiyan beyond god because it's in the wiki but I don't think the name itself makes much of a difference to the discussion. As far as it being a form though, the manga and anime give more than enough context for that. How is it that they are so strong in base form if they are not using some measure of god ki? Going by what berus says, goku in base form before their first fight would not be able to defeat frieza. However a while later goku is able to fight with frieza without using SSB even though first form frieza outclassed SS gohan. So even if the name is not cannon and whatnot, they are clearly doing something to be so insanely powerful in their base forms.

That said, I am not entire sure the implication here is that SSBG is stronger than SSG.

As for the bold part, I don't think that is an issue at all. It would be a similar situation to OP with armor haki for instance. So yeah, we would have to be told in some form or another to know what they are doing in their base forms.

You can't look that Deep into DBS it's too inconsistent in showings. Powerscaling & even cannon showings are Juss inconsistent & in jumbles.

*Here's the thing....Base Goku & Vegeta should hands be strong ASF! SSB shouldn't even be used because they are basically clad in God Ki, so their opponents should be Godly like also.

* Base Goku is the only character you'll see doing shit which overall always +^%*'s up the power showings

Ex. Base Goku vs Hit/ SS Goku vs Hit....Base Goku vs Frieza...Because he's the only exception for common sense showings it throws a wrench in the whole thing When Vegeta fights Frost & goes SS to beat him; Why? Why when Vegeta can do the same in Base its inconsistent. Also Vegeta vs Cabba, they appear to be equals & yet worst Vegeta comments on them almost being equals also.....Inconsistent BS, because Canba can't go SS, SS2 or Use God Ki to go SSB; So how is his Base almost equal to Vegeta's...Inconsistent BS...Base Goku fights Hit, then SS Goku fights Hit...These all are bad showings because they aren't consistent in establishing an hierarchy of power. Then we get a super poor explanation of Vegeta being @ 1/10 power. Yet Goku's SSG (RED) appears to be stronger than this ridiculous development of Vegeta being @ 1/10 power.

So SSBG should be a thing but it's not, it's a inconsistent power showing that DBS/Z universe doesn't clean up properly...So vague folklore pops up outta every corner of fans imagination

So as to
How is it that they are so strong in their base form? (rlly Kckk, did you just ask how a characters base form got stronger in a Shounen manga)

They all get stronger as the series progress...After BOG Movie; Goku lost SSG (RED) but still fought Beerus, they explained he kept some of that Strentgh...Then a whole new movie l8er we seen he's been training & can go SSB, Super Sayain form with God Ki....Of course their base form got stronger. that's never changed in DB


when a character is using Hardening's Haki his arm is turned black;

Observation Haki it'll be illustrated as it has been shown previously or some type of context & dailougue will be fit in to explain that a characters current feats are due to Observation Haki.

Touching logia/negating DF powers like observation Haki, it's already been put into context & dialogue that this is in effect.....

When DB wants to show us God Ki we get SSB, or a Charcter who is a God & through context we'll get to know his Ki is different.

We've never received a context that Goku & Vegeta have fought in their base form using God Ki besides during their training...But like I get it..it should be a thing but it's not & the term SSBG doesn't make sense because it's not a real thing or form

 

[kkck]

You can't look that Deep into DBS it's too inconsistent in showings. Powerscaling & even cannon showings are Juss inconsistent & in jumbles.

*Here's the thing....Base Goku & Vegeta should hands be strong ASF! SSB shouldn't even be used because they are basically clad in God Ki, so their opponents should be Godly like also.

* Base Goku is the only character you'll see doing shit which overall always +^%*'s up the power showings

Ex. Base Goku vs Hit/ SS Goku vs Hit....Base Goku vs Frieza...Because he's the only exception for common sense showings it throws a wrench in the whole thing When Vegeta fights Frost & goes SS to beat him; Why? Why when Vegeta can do the same in Base its inconsistent. Also Vegeta vs Cabba, they appear to be equals & yet worst Vegeta comments on them almost being equals also.....Inconsistent BS, because Canba can't go SS, SS2 or Use God Ki to go SSB; So how is his Base almost equal to Vegeta's...Inconsistent BS...Base Goku fights Hit, then SS Goku fights Hit...These all are bad showings because they aren't consistent in establishing an hierarchy of power. Then we get a super poor explanation of Vegeta being @ 1/10 power. Yet Goku's SSG (RED) appears to be stronger than this ridiculous development of Vegeta being @ 1/10 power.

So SSBG should be a thing but it's not, it's a inconsistent power showing that DBS/Z universe doesn't clean up properly...So vague folklore pops up outta every corner of fans imagination

So as to
How is it that they are so strong in their base form? (rlly Kckk, did you just ask how a characters base form got stronger in a Shounen manga)

They all get stronger as the series progress...After BOG Movie; Goku lost SSG (RED) but still fought Beerus, they explained he kept some of that Strentgh...Then a whole new movie l8er we seen he's been training & can go SSB, Super Sayain form with God Ki....Of course their base form got stronger. that's never changed in DB


when a character is using Hardening's Haki his arm is turned black;

Observation Haki it'll be illustrated as it has been shown previously or some type of context & dailougue will be fit in to explain that a characters current feats are due to Observation Haki.

Touching logia/negating DF powers like observation Haki, it's already been put into context & dialogue that this is in effect.....

When DB wants to show us God Ki we get SSB, or a Charcter who is a God & through context we'll get to know his Ki is different.

We've never received a context that Goku & Vegeta have fought in their base form using God Ki besides during their training...But like I get it..it should be a thing but it's not & the term SSBG doesn't make sense because it's not a real thing or form

The inconsistencies you mention are only a thing if we assume goku and vegeta using god ki in their base form is not a thing. However in DBZ they were shown learning it and in the return of F movie goku makes the point that he doesn't need to go SS to fight frieza. Overall, them using god ki in base form makes most of this make some semblance of sense and the series alludes to that as well.

As for the hardening part, that is factually incorrect. Haki can be invisible, it is a more advanced version that is visible. Hardening is a specific ability distinct from regular haki. Heck, there are plot points around haki being invisible and people being confused as to WTF is going on.

 

[XXGenesis]

The inconsistency is shown through forgetful or disregard for past plot points with little to no context or retcon. It Makes no sense Cabba was almost equal to Base Vegeta...Or that Goku was able to fight Hit , in Base or SS, it's silly & misrepresentative of power scaling that never gets cleaned up...

Ppl are confused because they aren't catching the context or aspects of Haki...Basic Haki to hurt Luffy or punch Smoker will not & does not have to be visually shown...Once the context of Ceetain characters posses this ability & this is how these characters are getting through to these DF users....Inwont be surprised when I see somebody strong punch Akoji etc etc...The hardening is something completely different & that is needed to be shown which it is always is when in use....The author wouldn't keep the context of hardening w/o some type of visual representation which is their skin turning black.

God Ki is not present unless they go SSB...Whether they trained in Base to attain it; They are never again shown to be able to use God Ki at base to be stronger than majority of the cast...Its just the messed up mechanism of DB.....SS2 Trunks shouldn't be able to lift a finger against Goku yet he's stronger than SS3 Goku; How it should be impossible once Goku has attained God Ki right??

 

[kkck]

The inconsistency is shown through forgetful or disregard for past plot points with little to no context or retcon. It Makes no sense Cabba was almost equal to Base Vegeta...Or that Goku was able to fight Hit , in Base or SS, it's silly & misrepresentative of power scaling that never gets cleaned up...

Ppl are confused because they aren't catching the context or aspects of Haki...Basic Haki to hurt Luffy or punch Smoker will not & does not have to be visually shown...Once the context of Ceetain characters posses this ability & this is how these characters are getting through to these DF users....Inwont be surprised when I see somebody strong punch Akoji etc etc...The hardening is something completely different & that is needed to be shown which it is always is when in use....The author wouldn't keep the context of hardening w/o some type of visual representation which is their skin turning black.

God Ki is not present unless they go SSB...Whether they trained in Base to attain it; They are never again shown to be able to use God Ki at base to be stronger than majority of the cast...Its just the messed up mechanism of DB.....SS2 Trunks shouldn't be able to lift a finger against Goku yet he's stronger than SS3 Goku; How it should be impossible once Goku has attained God Ki right??

Unless the whole god ki thing is treated as optional. As in, goku and vegeta can choose when and when not to use it. That is why they can still use the original super saiyan form.
https://mangastream.com/r/dragon_ball_z_rebirth_of_f/02/2749/9
Besides, isn't the implication there that goku, in base form, has acquired the power of a god?

 

[XXGenesis]

Unless the whole god ki thing is treated as optional. As in, goku and vegeta can choose when and when not to use it. That is why they can still use the original super saiyan form.
https://mangastream.com/r/dragon_ball_z_rebirth_of_f/02/2749/9
Besides, isn't the implication there that goku, in base form, has acquired the power of a god?

Evidently it is something that is optional.......Using White Ki Aura is not a good reference to say "God Ki in use" we've seen white Ki used for simply Ki already....

*Inconsistency of the Series*
( Because they trained in base form to acquire/master God Ki)
(They aren't suppose to rlly be going SS2/3 anymore) *According to Akira retconing them as wasteful forms; Yet they still do.

Take it at face value because it's nothing deeper to delve into, besides errors or the Mangaka; DBZ is simple with, many mistakes always has been.

***You are dope for finding that scan I couldn't find it anywhere....This is from ROF Manga, & he's practicing against Whis.....After movie Oneshot its ROF Movie & Then DBS.

***Biggest Major Point why it's not a thing.....

The Moniker/Name/Title SSBG or SS Beyond God is from DBZ Heroes; Which is a DBZ game. but that isn't cannon when tlking about DBZ Mytho's.....They are simply never referred to SSBG in the manga or Movie, because it wouldn't make sense, when you have SSG; & SSGSS=SSB.

I'm not saying they can't use God Ki in base form, But if they do. SSB or SSG is the result, not a baseless form of SSBG.

When Goku fought Hit, he went SSG then SSB.

 

[Demonspeed]

There is a Yamcha spinoff now: Link.

 

[LordOTaco]

Honestly, at this point with DBZ/Super I kinda take Akira's words with a grain of salt. Its his manga and he'll take it wherever he wants even if he's said things before that contradict what he's doing now or the other way around. I remember the whole debate over who was stronger between Mystic/Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Goku. To me the whole thing about SSB and how it compares to the other forms is vaguely similar to that. As far as why they trained in base forms to attain God Ki I think it has more to do with to increase their base power. Especially if you take the whole multiplier thing to heart then increasing the power of the base form means that their overall power grows much more assuming they can't increase the multiplier itself.

 

[Zehahaha]

Welp new chapter is out, and it is completely different from the anime
No Super Saiyan Rosé at all, just Zamasu using SSJ2 (which makes total sense actually), and him getting rekt by Vegeta easily

It seems they will be going for the fusion as expected, but I have a feeling things will be different compared to the anime

 

[kkck]

Interesting, things have developed differently from the anime. O prefer this over the anime, the pace is fast enough and to boot it makes more sense than the anime. As far as super saiyan rose though, I think that the situation is not that it got scrapped but rather that we will see it soon enough. Odds are that now that goku black got a taste of SSB he will just activate SSR.

 

[Demonspeed]

Although Black is much less entertaining, threatening and there is no SSR for now, this was a good chapter. DBS manga should have been weekly or biweekly. I am sure the arc will end next month since Toyotaro said he'd be ahead of the anime soon.

 

[Doughboy]

This manga really should of been weekly lol this arc is too good. I'm not watching the anime until the dub drops this Jan but I'm seeing the script is a bit different. Either way this chapter was great, it was obvious as daylight that Beerus didn't vaporize Zamasu, he probably used his time ring to warp to safety. I'm guessing if those two merge then he would be able to go into SSG, which is what he was saying earlier he can't. Still another dope chapter, Beerus might be the best character of the series

 

[XXGenesis]

Awesome chapter, This arc is much more concrete & solid in the manga compared to the anime which Uggh, is too confusing & paradoxical.

I believe Black will use something similar to SSRose or he'll still fuse with Zamasu..Either way Vegeta is kicking major ass in the manga that's s great chapter on anyday

 

[kkck]

One thing that did make more sense in the anime though is black's power to an extent. In it we saw black in base form being able to defeat future trunks and could give SS2 a run for his money. In the manga I am not quite sure of what is going around. Black going SS would even have the implication that he is not quite using god ki at all, otherwise he would have jumped to blue or rose to begin with.

 

[Zehahaha]

One thing that did make more sense in the anime though is black's power to an extent. In it we saw black in base form being able to defeat future trunks and could give SS2 a run for his money. In the manga I am not quite sure of what is going around. Black going SS would even have the implication that he is not quite using god ki at all, otherwise he would have jumped to blue or rose to begin with.

How could he use God Ki when he took over Goku's body before him achieving SSG
The anime doesn't make sense, because Black used SSR out of nowhere despite taking over Goku's body before achieving God Ki... But, in the anime, there is the implication that the body exchange resulted in an exchange of Ki as well (as Black's Ki was fairly similar to Zamasu)

I find the manga version more logical to be honest, Black/Zamasu should have access to God Ki onces he fuses with the alternate Zamasu. However, I still find it strange that Trunks who held his own against SSJ3 Goku was still beaten by Black, heck even SSJ2 Vegeta had the upperhand against Black

 

[Demonspeed]

Now that I think about it, there is an inconsistency. Trunks SSJ2 was said to be about as strong as as Goku SSJ3 and yet Black was dealing with him easily even though he lacks God Ki.

How could he use God Ki when he took over Goku's body before him achieving SSG
The anime doesn't make sense, because Black used SSR out of nowhere despite taking over Goku's body before achieving God Ki... But, in the anime, there is the implication that the body exchange resulted in an exchange of Ki as well (as Black's Ki was fairly similar to Zamasu)

I find the manga version more logical to be honest, Black/Zamasu should have access to God Ki onces he fuses with the alternate Zamasu. However, I still find it strange that Trunks who held his own against SSJ3 Goku was still beaten by Black, heck even SSJ2 Vegeta had the upperhand against Black

In the anime I assumed that Black learnt to control it by himself using Goku's potential coupled with his own, since Zamasu is a God.

 

[kkck]

How could he use God Ki when he took over Goku's body before him achieving SSG
The anime doesn't make sense, because Black used SSR out of nowhere despite taking over Goku's body before achieving God Ki... But, in the anime, there is the implication that the body exchange resulted in an exchange of Ki as well (as Black's Ki was fairly similar to Zamasu)

I find the manga version more logical to be honest, Black/Zamasu should have access to God Ki onces he fuses with the alternate Zamasu. However, I still find it strange that Trunks who held his own against SSJ3 Goku was still beaten by Black, heck even SSJ2 Vegeta had the upperhand against Black

Well, as far as we know god ki is the type of ki zamasu would have been using in his original body to begin with. It's not a stretch that after he switched bodies he would have been able to use god ki in goku's body or otherwise learned how to use it.

Indeed, most of what we have seen with trunks seems inconsistent this chapter. In the flashback to the buu battle we saw him being able to keep up with dabura using merely SS. Then when he got angry he awakened SS2 and easily won. Now, SS2 vegeta having that upper hand is not necessarily strange. Back in battle of gods he got angry and while in SS2 gave beerus more of a fight than goku did in SS3. I am not so sure if that was skipped over in the manga though, I can't recall.

 

[Demonspeed]

Well, as far as we know god ki is the type of ki zamasu would have been using in his original body to begin with. It's not a stretch that after he switched bodies he would have been able to use god ki in goku's body or otherwise learned how to use it.

Indeed, most of what we have seen with trunks seems inconsistent this chapter. In the flashback to the buu battle we saw him being able to keep up with dabura using merely SS. Then when he got angry he awakened SS2 and easily won. Now, SS2 vegeta having that upper hand is not necessarily strange. Back in battle of gods he got angry and while in SS2 gave beerus more of a fight than goku did in SS3. I am not so sure if that was skipped over in the manga though, I can't recall.

It was not skipped. But he keeping that rage boost permanently would be weird.