Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2017] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[Scruffy8642]

Wow I missed a lot.

BC at 1 cour? I'll believe it when its confirmed by a more trustworthy source. Only like 3 Jump manga ever have got single cour first seasons (for ones that are longer than that in length anyway), and after doing so with MHA completely shot itself in the foot, I just cant see it happenning again. And Pierrot... Eldlive and TG are the only 2 theyve really done single cours- eldlive because it was never going to make them money anyway, and TG because they needed to ruin it as much as possible.

On the topic of girls in MHA, I think they are all well constructed and unique, but it's true they have had little development time. Still more than most shounens though imo. None of them have felt like their existences were weakened just from simple being a girl outside of Ochako with her crush, and that ended up meaning very little anyway. I can count 2 males for every underdeveloped female in the main cast, so I really do just think its a cast problem.

With hype manga, that is something Jump is majorly lacking in atm. OP, TPN, HZ and MHA are the only series in the magazine currently that can keep up a constant level of excitement, and OP and MHA have been slacking a bit lately. There is nothing in Jump that I feel the need to read as soon as its released atm, and that is quite a shame. I think at this point, everyone just wants some fresh blood they can truly get hyped about and discuss each week. While WNL, RxL and Stone are all decent seris, they are far from amazing, and I'm really looking forward to eventually getting another one.

 

[ChocoBar9]

I agree wholeheartedly.
I mean, Hunter x Hunter is a good example for this. There aren't many women in this manga, but if I do remember the few, who exist in there, they're not bad characters. It's just that Togashi prioritize men/boys as characters in his work, and I really dont mind that much, because at least, when a woman appear in Hunter x Hunter, she's not an insult.

I wouldn't call any of the female characters in HxH exceptionally well-written they just don't appear often enough for people to complain about how useless or not they are hence why you don't see the fanbase bragging about them like they do with any other aspect of the series.

 

[Leoat12]

I'm digging the world building and feelings of tense exploration, and giving us time to build atmosphere and the character vibes.
I wouldn't say nothing is happening at all. I've honestly been enjoying this post-escape stuff more than the stuff in the orphanage. I have no idea whats gonna happen next so every week is hype.

You what? How can it be possible? All the chess game we had in the first part was awesome, now the series really has gone down, the latest chapters were very uneventful.

 

[Bomber D Rufi]

This is not actually the place to ask such question, but I will answer anyway:
- Flying Witch
- Non Non Biyori
- Gendai Majou Shuushoku Jijou
- 三ツ星カラーズ
- ヤマノススメ
- The entire Idolmaster franchise (my avatar is a little taste. XD)

Just naming a few that I'm reading (read) recently.
There is a lot of them, the majority of the manga nowadays have cute girls, no matter the genre. I still think that romance makes use of them the best, but that's your choice.

It was sort of relevant to the conversation so I figured I'd ask while it was the subject. I personally don't understand what makes romance appealing, nor have I ever liked a romance series (both in and out of anime/manga) because most of them feel like wish fulfillment and I don't really have any feelings toward it, mainly because I don't really care about romance between people. It just feels like people project what they'd like to happen to themselves in a romantic plot, and honestly I can't think of a time where a romantic plot/subplot has made things better rather than worse. I feel like friendships are way more interesting than romance, but that's aside from the point. I thank you for the recs though, I'll look into 'em.

There's some like that in Young Jump and other Jump mags.
There are other magazines made for the kind of stuff (CGCDT) that you're looking for.
Like: https://mangahelpers.com/forum/threads/manga-time-kirara-family-houbunsha.3008904/ (4-koma but also normal format ones)
But if you're looking in WSJ, you're out of luck unfortunately.

Thanks. I as hoping that there was more than this out there, but I guess I really am a minority in my disinterest in romance, lol.

To keep on topic, I do think that people need to understand that while it would be nice if female characters were handled better in shounen, the demographic itself is inherently more interested in what males want. I get that it's frustrating --hell, I want to have a shounen with a female protagonist, but it always weirds me out that people go into shounen series expecting one thing, and getting disappointed when it doesn't happen --but they've been into shounen before. I never see people act like this with any other demographic, though I guess on one hand it's because shounen manga have a higher representation rate? Most people get into anime/manga through a shounen manga/anime. Yes there are series that do better with their female characters than others, but they're always going to skew to the male characters because that's what the audience wants. I don't want to say "If you don't like it, get out" but getting in arms about it seems like a waste of time. On that note, I've noticed people praising Neverland for this, but I dunno --yes it's great there's a female lead, but it's like....if she were a dude it wouldn't change the plot much? It's not like being a girl has improved the story much if at all? Though I'm reading it in Japanese by volume so maybe she's done something that deserves the praise? Otherwise like I mentioned about romance, it's more about what people perceive in what they'd like to happen, more than what is happening. Not that this is a bad thing, just a distinction that needs to be made. I certainly do like Emma, and get why people are happy with her, but I don't know if i'd go as far as lauding the series for her.

Though yeah, I do think Horikoshi is a little better than most, and even then he's a bit lacking. I've heard this praise towards BC in how it handles girls, but I'm waiting for the anime to experience that. As someone here said, it's either you get "Okay-ish" like MHA, or non existent like Jojo and HXH. Either way is a shame, but this just isn't the demographic to really get one's hopes up. To me, the importance is making an interesting character despite their gender, and going from there, and not so much trying to aim for representation since that generally comes at the behest of ill-representing someone else.

 

[Nakura]

The only series that I get hyped for each chapter are My Hero Academia(these past few chapters have been incredible), and Kimetsu no Yaiba(the 3 MCs are so lovable, and I just love how this current arc is exploiting that).

Hinomaru Zumou would be on that list too, but it's scans are behind and aren't released frequently(last time I checked).

 

[Leoat12]

It was sort of relevant to the conversation so I figured I'd ask while it was the subject. I personally don't understand what makes romance appealing, nor have I ever liked a romance series (both in and out of anime/manga) because most of them feel like wish fulfillment and I don't really have any feelings toward it, mainly because I don't really care about romance between people. It just feels like people project what they'd like to happen to themselves in a romantic plot, and honestly I can't think of a time where a romantic plot/subplot has made things better rather than worse. I feel like friendships are way more interesting than romance, but that's aside from the point. I thank you for the recs though, I'll look into 'em.

The only thing I thought while reading this was this: "Man, this guy is cold-hearted". Sorry. XD

Thanks. I as hoping that there was more than this out there, but I guess I really am a minority in my disinterest in romance, lol.

To keep on topic, I do think that people need to understand that while it would be nice if female characters were handled better in shounen, the demographic itself is inherently more interested in what males want. I get that it's frustrating --hell, I want to have a shounen with a female protagonist, but it always weirds me out that people go into shounen series expecting one thing, and getting disappointed when it doesn't happen --but they've been into shounen before. I never see people act like this with any other demographic, though I guess on one hand it's because shounen manga have a higher representation rate? Most people get into anime/manga through a shounen manga/anime. Yes there are series that do better with their female characters than others, but they're always going to skew to the male characters because that's what the audience wants. I don't want to say "If you don't like it, get out" but getting in arms about it seems like a waste of time. On that note, I've noticed people praising Neverland for this, but I dunno --yes it's great there's a female lead, but it's like....if she were a dude it wouldn't change the plot much? It's not like being a girl has improved the story much if at all? Though I'm reading it in Japanese by volume so maybe she's done something that deserves the praise? Otherwise like I mentioned about romance, it's more about what people perceive in what they'd like to happen, more than what is happening. Not that this is a bad thing, just a distinction that needs to be made. I certainly do like Emma, and get why people are happy with her, but I don't know if i'd go as far as lauding the series for her.

Though yeah, I do think Horikoshi is a little better than most, and even then he's a bit lacking. I've heard this praise towards BC in how it handles girls, but I'm waiting for the anime to experience that. As someone here said, it's either you get "Okay-ish" like MHA, or non existent like Jojo and HXH. Either way is a shame, but this just isn't the demographic to really get one's hopes up. To me, the importance is making an interesting character despite their gender, and going from there, and not so much trying to aim for representation since that generally comes at the behest of ill-representing someone else.

I agree 100% with what you've said, it summarizes what I've been trying to say since the beginning. About the "If you don't like it, get out", you are probably talking about my post earlier. Well, when you try to explain the essence of shounen multiple times and people seems they don't get it, you start to lose your patient a bit...
Yes, Emma being a girl or a boy wouldn't make any difference at this point of the story, she didn't make anything inherently feminine so far that feels like it makes any difference, much the contrary, I have a big problem in recognizing her as female. Therefore, while people praise her, I think she is badly handled.

 

[Bomber D Rufi]

The only thing I thought while reading this was this: "Man, this guy is cold-hearted". Sorry. XD


I agree 100% with what you've said, it summarizes what I've been trying to say since the beginning. About the "If you don't like it, get out", you are probably talking about my post earlier. Well, when you try to explain the essence of shounen multiple times and people seems they don't get it, you start to lose your patient a bit...
Yes, Emma being a girl or a boy wouldn't make any difference at this point of the story, she didn't make anything inherently feminine so far that feels like it makes any difference, much the contrary, I have a big problem in recognizing her as female. Therefore, while people praise her, I think she is badly handled.

Cold hearted? Hah, I get that a lot. I guess there's a sort of "suspension of disbelief" that comes with the genre that I just don't have. I'm cool with characters who are friends, but romance tends to sour stories --imo of course. I'm also not really into sports but that's a conversation for another time.

I'm not even arguing people are wrong for expecting more out of female characters, just...this is not the location to choose to place one's flag. Not to mention there are other demographics than shounen where one could level a complaint about female representation and it would be way more valid. Maybe with slow reform (very slow) the demographic might get a lot less lopsided, but it's definitely not something that'll happen quickly or soon. Though referring to the "don't like it get out", I was just saying in general. I'm not trying to tell people what to read, or what demographic they're welcome in, but let's be honest --girls who read shounen are typically in it for the male characters, and the target demographic of teenage boys are too, so expecting change when the audience isn't really demanding it is crazy, I think.

In regard to Neverland, I say this as someone who is enjoying the series --I don't think Emma is badly handled, but I don't quite get the praise for her gender when it doesn't affect anything. It feels nice to say "see, this series has a female protag" but that's really the only thing it has, which proves my point that writing interesting characters should be the priority. Audiences generally respond to characters that are entertaining first and foremost, I think --and not just ones created to have badges of honor or created to be "different" and for no other reason.

Anyway, I get hyped for One piece and Gintama though those are the only ones I read sorta weekly. (I translate Gintama, so I guess I'm sort of obligated, lol.) MHA I read by volume, along with Neverland --buying them digitally off Amazon Japan is really easy for me so. I really do need to catch up on Kimetsu though.

 

[Leoat12]

In regard to Neverland, I say this as someone who is enjoying the series --I don't think Emma is badly handled, but I don't quite get the praise for her gender when it doesn't affect anything. It feels nice to say "see, this series has a female protag" but that's really the only thing it has, which proves my point that writing interesting characters should be the priority. Audiences generally respond to characters that are entertaining first and foremost, I think --and not just ones created to have badges of honor or created to be "different" and for no other reason.

Anyway, I get hyped for One piece and Gintama though those are the only ones I read sorta weekly. (I translate Gintama, so I guess I'm sort of obligated, lol.) MHA I read by volume, along with Neverland --buying them digitally off Amazon Japan is really easy for me so. I really do need to catch up on Kimetsu though.

She is badly handled for me precisely because I don't think she is interesting. She wants to protect her family and friends and make so that everybody escape, well, how many times did we see it in shounen manga? 100% of them? xD
If the author is trying to do something different, as some people defend, he should make it right. Different =/= Good and Cliche =/= Bad as we point out many times here. It is useless make a female protagonist, but make it behave like any other shounen protagonist, which are 99.999% male characters.

 

[shoyoboyo]

I'm also not really into sports but that's a conversation for another time.

Huh, that's strange because sports manga are all about the friendships between team members. Care to explain?

Off topic, but someone joke translated WNL 31 and it's pretty hilarious. Check it out.
https://bato.to/reader#8fbd45ddb65a53f0

 

[ChocoBar9]

She is badly handled for me precisely because I don't think she is interesting. She wants to protect her family and friends and make so that everybody escape, well, how many times did we see it in shounen manga? 100% of them? xD
If the author is trying to do something different, as some people defend, he should make it right. Different =/= Good and Cliche =/= Bad as we point out many times here. It is useless make a female protagonist, but make it behave like any other shounen protagonist, which are 99.999% male characters.

To be fair that extends to most of the cast barring Izabella so its not as if Emma is the weak link the rest of the cast are just as uninteresting as her at the moment.

 

[Leoat12]

To be fair that extends to most of the cast barring Izabella so its not as if Emma is the weak link the rest of the cast are just as uninteresting as her at the moment.

I think they are not interesting because they shouldn't be, I think that the protagonist in the story is not Emma, or any character there, the protagonist is the world, the mysteries that permeating the world. It reminds me a lot of Assassination Classroom, where the protagonist was Korosensei, the most mysterious creature there, the students were not that important. I was in doubt about that because the first part of the series had much more from Emma and company because of the battle of brains they had with Izabella, but now that are out there in the world, the world is the protagonist, we want to know more about the world, not about the children.

 

[shoyoboyo]

Uh no. The characters in Neverland should be interesting. The characters are actually the weakest link in the story, especially since the only interesting child has been absent from the story.

Also, the protagonist of AssClass is Nagisa, not Korosensei. That should be obvious.

 

[Bomber D Rufi]

She is badly handled for me precisely because I don't think she is interesting. She wants to protect her family and friends and make so that everybody escape, well, how many times did we see it in shounen manga? 100% of them? xD
If the author is trying to do something different, as some people defend, he should make it right. Different =/= Good and Cliche =/= Bad as we point out many times here. It is useless make a female protagonist, but make it behave like any other shounen protagonist, which are 99.999% male characters.

I agree with you for the most part. A female character in shounen shouldn't just be a gender flipped male, though how does one go about making them "different" in a meaningful way is the question. If you ask a hundred people you'd get a hundred different answers, so as I've said, I think making an "interesting" character independent of their gender is the best way to go.

Huh, that's strange because sports manga are all about the friendships between team members. Care to explain?

Off topic, but someone joke translated WNL 31 and it's pretty hilarious. Check it out.
https://bato.to/reader#8fbd45ddb65a53f0

It's mostly with sports that I enjoy the characters, but find that I don't like actually watching the characters play. I find that part of the series boring because there's no sense of urgency. Yes, yes the writer will present it in a way that makes it feel that way, but other than loss of pride and maybe injury there's nothing preventing the losing protagonist from just trying again next year or whatever. It's pretty harsh I know, but even if the heroes are bound to win, I like the sense of there being a lot on the line that comes with adventure series. So in short, while I generally like the sense of friendship between characters in sports series, I dislike when they actually play sports. (It doesn't help that I don't like IRL sports much either, I suppose.) It does sort of limit what I can read in the shounen demographic, lol. Though hey at least I'm not stuck trying to figure out what to buy.

 

[Leoat12]

Uh no. The characters in Neverland should be interesting. The characters are actually the weakest link in the story, especially since the only interesting child has been absent from the story.

Also, the protagonist of AssClass is Nagisa, not Korosensei. That should be obvious.

You should tell the author then because I don't think they are going to be interesting any time soon.

You should tell it to Jump editors then because they clearly didn't realize that.

Spoiler: A lot of Korosensei!

I agree with you for the most part. A female character in shounen shouldn't just be a gender flipped male, though how does one go about making them "different" in a meaningful way is the question. If you ask a hundred people you'd get a hundred different answers, so as I've said, I think making an "interesting" character independent of their gender is the best way to go.

Sure, I agree, but you cannot make a good character being gender agnostic, what makes a male character good is one thing and what makes a female character good is another thing completely different.

 

[Bomber D Rufi]

You should tell the author then because I don't think they are going to be interesting any time soon.

You should tell it to Jump editors then because they clearly didn't realize that.

Spoiler: A lot of Korosensei!

Sure, I agree, but you cannot make a good character being gender agnostic, what makes a male character good is one thing and what makes a female character good is another thing completely different.

Right, but what makes a female character more interesting? What makes a guy more interesting? Can those questions feasibly be answered?

 

[Leoat12]

Right, but what makes a female character more interesting? What makes a guy more interesting? Can those questions feasibly be answered?

It depends on the story, but it can be answered. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to understand that a given character is good and another one is bad, something we can.

 

[Bomber D Rufi]

It depends on the story, but it can be answered. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to understand that a given character is good and another one is bad, something we can.

Right, but my question is does gender really come into play in what makes a good character good or a bad character bad in any aspect other than how they're designed/look? Does someone really say "Oh this character sucks because they're a girl/guy" or "This character sucks because I don't relate to them/they're not written well?"

 

[shoyoboyo]

Qualities of a good character aren't gender specific. It doesn't matter if they're a boy or a girl, they just have to be compelling and contribute to the story in a positive way.

 

[iceemperor]

Right, but what makes a female character more interesting? What makes a guy more interesting? Can those questions feasibly be answered?

I'd go even further and say what traits in a female character make them interesting and engaging as characters? We already know some traits that Jump readers find appealing in male protagonists, traits such as being bright, funny, happy-go-lucky, big eater, etc. Jump readers in the past and arguably even now primarily seem to want female characters that are at the least cute. There are whole discussions online about the cutest Jump heroine currently in jump and even cute rankings within series. The majority of these discussions are done by older jump readers from the 80s and 90s and maybe even early 00s so they are not the target audience. The question is what feminine qualities make for effective characters? What feminine traits will draw in both female and male readers and make them not only relate with the character but also want to cheer on the character and see them succeed? Essentially, how can a female character over come the title of "heroine" and become a "hero"?

 

[Bomber D Rufi]

I'd go even further and say what traits in a female character make them interesting and engaging as characters? We already know some traits that Jump readers find appealing in male protagonists, traits such as being bright, funny, happy-go-lucky, big eater, etc. Jump readers in the past and arguably even now primarily seem to want female characters that are at the least cute. There are whole discussions online about the cutest Jump heroine currently in jump and even cute rankings within series. The majority of these discussions are done by older jump readers from the 80s and 90s and maybe even early 00s so they are not the target audience. The question is what feminine qualities make for effective characters? What feminine traits will draw in both female and male readers and make them not only relate with the character but also want to cheer on the character and see them succeed? Essentially, how can a female character over come the title of "heroine" and become a "hero"?

This is what I was getting at. It's really just not as easy as giving a female character male traits and sticking her in the spotlight. There's a whole lot that we could discuss about that and still not be able to come to an answer, but I don't want to derail the thread any more than I have. A bit of it is "cuteness" but obviously there's a lot more to it than that --and hell, maybe it's just not a question that can be answered satisfactorily.