Mag Talk Weekly Shonen Jump [2017] - Discussion and TOC Talk

[ChocoBar9]

Why do I feel like people are discrediting Neverland's success? The fact that it managed to become almost a top 10 seller in the age where print sales in Japan are going down dramatically is really impressive. To add to that, it's a new manga.

Its not discrediting when its clear that TPN had special treatment in comparison to other recent Jump manga because much like Black Clover and Dr.Stone they had clear intention to make sure it was a guaranteed hit. As iceemperor pointed out in its first year TPN had an author recommendation from Oda, three television appearances and a plethora of color pages for promotion yet still sold less than Heroaca's first year which didn't have nearly as much promotion at all and it isn't even close to the surprise hit AssClass was. Its a hit but its not very exceptional and all it does is shows that JUMP's push for it worked out well for it in comparison to Toriko and Black Clover now that being said TPN's critical acclaim shouldn't be ignored and I would say that it being a good manga is what got it attention from manga enthusiasts to begin with which further gave it attention all Jump did was milk it for all its worth. So is TPN an exceptional success? Not really. Did Jump's push benefit it? Definitely, but it being a good manga helped it stand out from becoming a Black Clover in which throwing everything but the kitchen sink isn't really benefiting it in the long run.

 

[TyVip]

First thing I will do as a billionaire is inflate Yuragi no Yuuna San and Spring Weapon N1 number . Only an easy payment of 2,649,000~3,532,000 USD for 1 million copies.

Happy Holidays everyone

edit: oops i multiply 3 yen by 1 million, suppose to be 300 yen multiply by 1 million

 

[shoyoboyo]

The author for Kuroko did a One shot about Archery and ended up doing a manga about Golf.

Fujimaki has wanted to make a golf manga since the beginning. His editor told him to try basketball instead since golf isn't that interesting.

Taishi is the Maes Hughes of WSJ.

Taishi's weekly comments are the reason I even try looking for them ever since mangastream stopped translating them.

First thing I will do as a billionaire is inflate Yuragi no Yuuna San and Spring Weapon N1 number . Only an easy payment of 26,490~35320 USD for 1 million copies.

How has this not been done yet? I'm sure there's a rich manga enthusiast in Japan who's willing to spend a couple thousand dollars every few months.

 

[cody]

Its not discrediting when its clear that TPN had special treatment in comparison to other recent Jump manga because much like Black Clover and Dr.Stone they had clear intention to make sure it was a guaranteed hit. As iceemperor pointed out in its first year TPN had an author recommendation from Oda, three television appearances and a plethora of color pages for promotion yet still sold less than Heroaca's first year which didn't have nearly as much promotion at all and it isn't even close to the surprise hit AssClass was. Its a hit but its not very exceptional and all it does is shows that JUMP's push for it worked out well for it in comparison to Toriko and Black Clover now that being said TPN's critical acclaim shouldn't be ignored and I would say that it being a good manga is what got it attention from manga enthusiasts to begin with which further gave it attention all Jump did was milk it for all its worth. So is TPN an exceptional success? Not really. Did Jump's push benefit it? Definitely, but it being a good manga helped it stand out from becoming a Black Clover in which throwing everything but the kitchen sink isn't really benefiting it in the long run.

Well, if the manga wasn't good Oda wouldn't have given it a shout-out and neither would it have been nominated for an award or get 1st place in the Kono Manga Sugoi rankings.

How is its success not exceptional, I wonder? Especially in the age where print sales are going down big time, Ass Class and BNHA didn't have to deal with that to such an extent when they started out if you feel like bringing those up as comparisons for whatever reason.

What other new manga from 2016 or 2017 have managed to take off as much as TPN, nothing is even close. I don't really know TPN had a special treatment, it's just that Shueisha have figured out more effective ways to advertise things if anything, especially after the Kingdom Ame talk incident happened in 2015 and the TPN's quality spoke for itself, that's why it got so many color pages. If anything, its promotion is directly proportional to the the quality and potential of the manga, if the manga is truly special, then of course Shueisha will make sure people hear about it if they can.

The fact that it even appeared on Ame Talk so early on shows that the manga isn't your everyday typical series, if they didn't consider it worthy it probably wouldn't have been featured there for 3-5 minutes, right?

WSJ want all of their manga to be successful, especially now when they had so many big things finish in one year, so maybe that's why it seems like they're desperate to make sure their new stuff takes off, I mean for Christ's sake, they had the Jump Super Push section at Jump Festa this year with Bokuben, Dr. Stone, Kimetsu, BC and Neverland, they've always wanted for their manga to take off. Now let's say they're more direct about it, literally.

Again, people sure seem to be discrediting TPN's success, kind of ridiculous to be quite honest, even if you consider it to be extra pushed or not or whatever... xD

 

[shoyoboyo]

It's more like they're acknowledging that it probably wouldn't be as successful as it is now if it didn't get all that promotion.

If anything, its promotion is directly proportional to the the quality and potential of the manga, if the manga is truly special, then of course Shueisha will make sure people hear about it if they can.

Black Clover says hi

 

[cody]

It's more like they're acknowledging that it probably wouldn't be as successful as it is now if it didn't get all that promotion.

Black Clover says hi

Well, the guys in charge there do seem to think that it is going to be something special.

 

[SharkBait]

It's more like they're acknowledging that it probably wouldn't be as successful as it is now if it didn't get all that promotion.

Black Clover says hi

BLack Clover is special. Its going to be the first manga where the lead doesnt get the winning status (yuno for magic king and is high quality.

 

[De La Croissant]

My problem here is that the special treatment received is seen as merit rather than as a special treatment because it's selling a lot or because it's not a "generic" battle shonen. So it's like: Oda recommended Toriko just because he is Shimabukuro's friend. Oda recommended TPN because TPN is good. BC got countless color pages just because they want it to be the next big thing. TPN got countless color pages because it is good. Dr. Stone was mentioned on Ame Talk and sold poorly because Dr. Stone was pushed. TPN was mentioned on Ame Talk and had a boost because TPN is good.

 

[cody]

My problem here is that the special treatment received is seen as merit rather than as a special treatment because it's selling a lot or because it's not a "generic" battle shonen. So it's like: Oda recommended Toriko just because he is Shimabukuro's friend. Oda recommended TPN because TPN is good. BC got countless color pages just because they want it to be the next big thing. TPN got countless color pages because it is good. Dr. Stone was mentioned on Ame Talk and sold poorly because Dr. Stone was pushed. TPN was mentioned on Ame Talk and had a boost because TPN is good.

I don't really get what you're trying to say, sorry, could you try to word it differently?

 

[razerxs]

I don't really get what you're trying to say, sorry, could you try to word it differently?

It's called confirmation bias.

 

[shoyoboyo]

all this attention it got led it to promotion that's equal to the quality of the manga

That is literally not how it works. Attention doesn't lead to promotion, it's the other way around.

 

[cody]

That is literally not how it works. Attention doesn't lead to promotion, it's the other way around.

I don't know, it's at least how I see things for WSJ, if they have something they know is special, they won't just sit and do nothing.

It's called confirmation bias.

I was asking because I didn't fully understand what he was trying to say I didn't fully get the examples he gave and how they were connected to what he was saying, I'm not a native speaker of English so I was asking for a different wording, maybe a simpler way to put things, I don't mind hearing different perspectives, I actually love to see multiple perspectives and maybe debate and discuss them.

 

[Ninjaz]

It definitely goes both ways. You could say that "Attention leads to more promotion." And in contrast, depending on how you promote something, it won't necessarily get as much attention as hoped for.
TPN was well received, and so it got more and more promotion. If it wasn't received well to begin with, it wouldn't have blown up so much from the AmeTalk or its marketing. Or else most series would be the same way. I think it's fair to think of this as a special case, like with anything that blows up.

Even though Black Clover is doing well, I think the reason a lot of people are so critical as to its success is because of how much it's being pushed compared to how well it's being received.
If we were to scale how much they're pushing something to how big its growth is, a lot of people would argue about its "success".
It's no lie that Black Clover is doing well for a manga. Though if they're pushing the series with all they've got, and its growth doesn't scale well with the amount of attention they want it to get. Then you could debate its success. No one can say Black Clover isn't doing well in general terms, but that's not how some people scale its success.

Invest 3 and get 6 back, or invest 7 and get 9 back, both are successful outcomes.

Not really the best way to explain it realistically, but that's my point of view anyways.

 

[cody]

Yeah, I forgot Toriko became the next One Piece and Dragon Ball. Money well spent.

I hope this conversation is going somewhere soon. I've made my contribution.

So, Golem Hearts is getting 23 pages next issue, and Kimetsu is getting another color page. I'm really happy about Kimetsu. However, I'm still split on how I feel about Golem Hearts at this point. From what we've gotten so far I don't think it was has been awful, but I can't say I'm super interested in it, like I've been with most other series that ended up doing well. So I'm curious to see if Golem Hearts is going to do well or not, because at this point I don't think I would care whether it continues or ends.

I've heard a lot of people really like GH after the time skip, do you think that could be enough to save it for a while?

 

[Ninjaz]

I've heard a lot of people really like GH after the time skip, do you think that could be enough to save it for a while?

Hard to tell what the audience likes and what they don't. My biggest gripe with Golem Hearts is that I don't feel like it has an interesting enough cast yet. If I take something like My Hero Academia or even Black Clover into comparison, there were many interesting characters that I would like to know more about, and the narrative was fleshed out rather early on. It doesn't have any specifically unique element about it either, like Dr.Stone with its science and concept and it had the same issue with the characters early on. So I don't where it would go from here.

 

[Nakurawari]

Well the My Hero one shot is what inspired Horikoshi to create My Hero Academia. My Hero was what Horikoshi considered to be his peak. In my opinion, there is inherently a connection there.

 

[perroloco]

MHA has already reached its peak; it can't go much higher. TPN can definitely keep growing and might have a higher ceiling. Let's see how volume 7 debuts in January before making any calls, though.

I'm not entirely sure that is a fair comparison. I'm of two minds on this issue. One I sincerely doubt that we'll ever see a success on the level of Naruto, Bleach, or One Piece regardless of writing quality or presentation as I believe a large part of their success is due to a combination of factors involving timing and the advent of the internet.

Secondly, if we're using the Marineford Arc as an example, One Piece took 550 chapters to reach the Marineford Arc. That is 550 chapters of world building and character moments leading up to that point. In my mind comparing a 164 chapter manga to a 889 chapter behemoth like One Piece is kinda churlish.

It just seems like MHA's storytelling quality seems to be a separate issue to whether or not it can achieve similar results to the "Big 3" in their prime.

I agree with both of your posts, I remember around 7 years (IIRC) back when One Piece had all that promotion about Strong World you could clearly see a HUGE push by Shueisha's marketing team, IIRC the series got an enormous boost (even the first volume of ONE PIECE and a couple other volumes got into Oricon's Top 100 sellers after 10 years of being published! all thanks to that marketing) and I also think that the epic scope of the Marineford arc probably brought old fans back again..

TM2 wrote:
we'll ever see a success on the level of Naruto, Bleach, or One Piece regardless of writing quality or presentation as I believe a large part of their success is due to a combination of factors involving timing and the advent of the internet.

But then again I'm sure back when Dragon Ball was being published people tought there couldn't possibly be a new manga that could reach those sales and yet some years later Slam Dunk broke the record for the highest selling volume of a manga sold, then that record was in turn broken by ONE PIECE.

I'm not saying a manga will come that will break ONE PIECE records, it probably won't happen, and for example Dragon Ball is still the most popular manga/anime property worldwide (tied probably with Saint Seiya, Pokemon, Captain Tsubasa and Sailor Moon in popularity.. Yet still I guess Dragon Ball is the one that sells the most out of these properties).

Think about it, chances are Dragon Ball got this popularity worldwide because it also had a great timing, its anime adaptation started around the time non-asian countries started opening to anime series to be broadcasted worldwide, and thus channels bought Dragon Ball to be broadcasted.

So Dragon Ball's popularity outside of Japan IMO was due to it's timing coinciding with non-asian countries opening to broadcasting anime on their channels.

As TM2 suggests One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, the big 3 too had the timing to coincide with the internet's growth, and so they grew huge fanbases.


As for new manga/anime that could beat One Piece's records or even reach Naruto popularity levels??
I don't think it will happen, there are 2 factors I mainly think it can't happen:

-New animes are done in seasons, we won't have any more long running anime like we used to for popular shonen.
-The birthrates in Japan, simply put the audience for shonen series is 'disappearing'

Also I think it's pretty clear Black Clover isn't liked that much, I mean it sells very good but even its fanbase knows it just a mash of cliche after cliche.. I remember LOTS of people really liked Naruto back when it started in 2002, and it just grew bigger and bigger, and then with time as it happens with lots of properties it also got popular to hate the show, but it still had more fans than detractors I think.

Also I read a comment about how both Boku no hero academy and Black clover had gotten a game announced..
Naruto got 4 games back when it started.
And got a PS2 game announcement a year later
And a movie adaptation in 2004 (a little more than a year later after its premiere in October 2002)


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Let's compare the series sales

Naruto had sold around 60million volumes by its 32nd volume
(Interesting to note that BLEACH had sold 30 million volumes with only 21 volumes), but and finished selling 90 million with 74 volumes but that's counting worldwide sales so BLEACH volume sales really did decline a lot, I remeber back when Soul Society arc/Hueco mundo arc first volumes it used to sell 1M+ per volume..

Also I couldn't find the news on ANN but according to my memory (and this)
Naruto had sold around 12 million copies by the time the 13rd volume had been shipped in Japan
"Masashi Kishimoto made his debut in Weekly Shonen Jump in 1999 with Naruto, Naruto became a big hit with both boys and girls. Kishimoto added a ... To date, with the release of all 13 volumes of the graphic novel, this title has sold 12 million copies."

I remember Volume 13 when released back in 2001ish? Had the 12million copies sold in the obi (IIRC that's the name of the thing tankobons have, right?)

My hero's 13th volume also had an announcement that the series had sold aroun 10m copies (counting spinoffs like Vigilante, and novels..)

So BNHA sold a little less than Naruto did by its 13 volume but Naruto had no spinoff and probably no novels, and also hadn't had an anime adaptation yet (Naruto's anime adaptation was done in October 2002, around the time the 14th volume was released.

Black Clover just revelead it had like 4.8 million copies in print by its 14th volume.

So, that's more than half what Naruto had by its 13th volume..

I don't know if there will be another WSJ manga that will attain ONE PIECE/BLEACH/NARUTO levels of popularity but Black Clover just isn't selling well enough.. Had D-Gray Man continued or Hunter x Hunter had a regular weekly serialization they would have been strong contenders to be as huge as these mangas, but alas both authors had sickness..

And yeah people probably forgot it but there was a time when D-Gray Man while not neccesarily reaching Big3 status outside of Japan was posisionated to overtake or at least be on the same levels of BLEACH and perhaps even Naruto in terms of sales..

You can see the jump in sales
2006 D-Gray Man with 7 volumes already selling 4 million copies
2007 D-Gray Man with only 10 volumes reaching the 8m volume mark

Although D-Gray Man already had an anime promoting its manga by the 7th volume, probably because the mangaka had to rest sometimes and the volumes were released sometimes like 5 months after the last volume (most weekly manga get volumes every 2.5 months)

 

[Luca11]

Guys we all know that the most successful new manga of 2016-2017 is Yuri on ice, why quibble about the plebs.

 

[101nemesis]

(Interesting to note that BLEACH had sold 30 million volumes with only 21 volumes), but and finished selling 90 million with 74 volumes but that's counting worldwide sales so BLEACH volume sales really did decline a lot, I remeber back when Soul Society arc/Hueco mundo arc first volumes it used to sell 1M+ per volume..

If I'm not mistaken, 90 million is ONLY Japanese sales. They never released worldwide numbers. So by all accounts, it's average is still above 1 million per volume.

 

[TyVip]

If I'm not mistaken, 90 million is ONLY Japanese sales. They never released worldwide numbers. So by all accounts, it's average is still above 1 million per volume.

Viz kinda did, it sold a total of 2 million. This info is couple years before it ended.

Also, we know the last 10 volumes of Bleach sold between 500~700k in JPN.