One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Shasha23]

No feats but he did show great ability as a logia and no one showed any haki ability before so I still think he is tougher than Lucci, but Moria's fruit is versatile and might be able to steal his shadow.

We already know after Luffy beat Lucci the WG knew Moria would lose thats why they send Kuma to help, so with that alone its pretty obvious Lucci was stronger.
As for Crocodile, sure his DF abilities would make him tricky but none of what he showed up till the war comes even close to Lucci's level, and it probably wouldn't be ridiculous to say Lucci would figure out to use water on him and would comfortably beat Crocodile.
The only person who was clearly stronger than all of them was Enel, and probably lost for plot purpose as he displayed physical strength and speed to overwhelm Zoro yet vs Luffy he couldn't do much (cause of plot). Oda made Enel way too powerful for that time line in OP and its not like he outright lost since even after taking Luffy's last hit he didn't get knocked out he proceeded to leave, if he so wanted he could have used RIAGO to kill everyone but he didnt because of plot :/

 

[McNuss]

Did Luffy have physical strength though, or did he increase his strength by stretching his arms back and using momentum? Luffy also won because he used blood to hit Crocodile, otherwise without blood Luffy likely would have been fucked. Crocodile also probably underestimated Luffy, especially after poisoning him.

I don't know if we can determine if Doflamingo's stronger than Crocodile, honestly. Crocodile didn't look like he was in any disadvantage and was able to compete with Doflamingo and survive unscathed enough to save Luffy and Jinbei.

Can we consider preskip Luffy stronger when he's lost two rounds against Crocodile and survived and won due to luck?

I'm essentially agreeing with you that Crocodile is stronger so I'll leave it at that

However I think we can easily determine that Doflamingo is stronger simply by the insane difference in damage he can take compared to Croc

Yeah, but again, if Whitebeard or his crew aren't as strong as they're hyped up to be, why were the Marines scared? Why wouldn't an Emperor try to take out a legend who was known to rival the Pirate King?

The Marines would have done the same with any other Emperor attacking them. They have a face to keep, so they wanted to present the world an overwhelming victory. That didn't go as planned, the wall was ineffective due to Oars Jr, their treachery was ineffective due to Whitebeard forgiving Squard, their Pacifista proved to be easily handable by the New World Captains, thanks to Luffy and Mr 3 they almost lost their objective and lastly Blackbeard was able to gain the Gura Gura no Mi right in front of their eyes. But in the end the Marines won a clear victory. Ace and Whitebeard died and the Pirates were on the retreat, whith the three Admirals on their toes. If it weren't for Shanks and Trafalgar Law arriving, more people would have died including Luffy and Jinbei.

Also no higher ranked Marine was actually scared. Sengoku was quite troubled, but he is the leader, he has the responsibilty and has to transport the seriousness of the situation to his subordinates. The three Admirals were all fearless even when facing Whitebeard.

It is quite clear that the Marines are the strongest military force in the world. However facing an emperor on one's own homeground is much easier than facing him on his. The marines would need to split up their forces as the emperors control many islands, and they would in turn leave the Paradise unprotected from pirates. YOu might win a battle, but you will not win a war just because you have the superior military power.

This is also the reason why the Yonko don't try to take each other out, the situation has reached a stalemate. However, when Whitebeard actually left his territory, Kaido immediately chased him but was somehow stopped by Shanks. That's also the reason why the Marines made such a big deal of Shanks meeting Whitebeard. Any move the Yonko make could trigger a chain of events that could completely shift the balance of the world. The New World is a barrel of gunpowder.

Sanji was also injured and exhausted from when Nami was using his body to the point that even one punch from her took him down. Plus, they both had more important matters to deal with than fight to the death.

For me, breaking the leg of a legs specialist speaks for itself, especialy because Sanji can use Haki.

Anyone who puts Lucci below any pre-timeskip opponent of Luffy is clearly delusional, Lucci's punches were strong enough to damage a ruberman something only people with haki have been able to do and he did it with pure brute force, putting Enel ahead is understandable only because of his OP DF as none of Luffy's pre-timeskip opponents would have a snowday chance in hell against him.

As you said yourself, Lucci does not have Haki. So how does he beat Crocodile?

As for the whole durability part, TB should have proven to all who is the most durable and who can endure the most damage and that is Zoro and not by a little, probably this has changed now as Luffy can fight hours none stop and Zoro post-timeskip hasn't shown he can do the same, but before 3D2Y Zoro is clearly ahead.

I don't even think it has changed since the timekip. Zoro has an own page in the first Databook, Red, dedicated to how much blood he can lose. Durability was always Zoro's feat. Luffy does come close, but Sanji never did and I can't understand how Sanji fans vastly claim he does and he could have survived Kuma. If you are truly a fan of someone, accept him the way he is.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 4, 2018 ---

Here is something I don't think we discussed thoroughly, Garp supposedly beat up the captain under which both Kaido and Big Mom were serving. What does that mean for Garp's power level I wonder?

It means nothing because that was a long time ago in the past. Age is an impediment, Whitebeard and Chinjao are perfect examples at that. Now Garp didn't age as badly as Chinjao, but he shouldn't be anywhere near his prime.

How strong he exactly is, we don't know since he has barely any onscreen feats in the present timeline.

 

[Shasha23]

As you said yourself, Lucci does not have Haki. So how does he beat Crocodile?

Its not far fetched to think he would figure out to use water, and besides Lucci's stats are higher than Crocodile, dont see how Sir. Croc can even defeat Lucci even though Lucci cant tag him without water or haki.

I don't even think it has changed since the timekip. Zoro has an own page in the first Databook, Red, dedicated to how much blood he can lose. Durability was always Zoro's feat. Luffy does come close, but Sanji never did and I can't understand how Sanji fans vastly claim he does and he could have survived Kuma. If you are truly a fan of someone, accept him the way he is.

All true but unfortunately Sanji fans are mostly delusional, much like Itachi fans, they put their fav. character on this high pedestal and make all this wild claims to make it so their boy can beat anyone and can do anything people above him can do. Its truly sad

 

[Pirate Queen]

Ya'll ever remember what it felt like to be in the middle of an Itachi vs Jiraiya forum lol

Sanji vs Zoro feels an aweful lot like that

 

[McNuss]

Its not far fetched to think he would figure out to use water, and besides Lucci's stats are higher than Crocodile, dont see how Sir. Croc can even defeat Lucci even though Lucci cant tag him without water or haki.

It is actually quite farfetched to think Lucci would figure it out on the first attempt and even if he does, he has no method of generating it. Using one's own blood is a pretty desperate measure.
Lucci doesn't have Haki so he can't protect himself from sharp Sand Blades. Crocodile has a poison hook.

 

[Shasha23]

It is actually quite farfetched to think Lucci would figure it out on the first attempt and even if he does, he has no method of generating it. Using one's own blood is a pretty desperate measure.
Lucci doesn't have Haki so he can't protect himself from sharp Sand Blades. Crocodile has a poison hook.

The Crocodile that fought Luffy would never even lay a single finger on Lucci, the difference in basic speed and combat capabilities is clear between them, if we use the level Crocodile displayed in the war then yes he "might" beat Lucci but only because Lucci wouldn't be able to fight back.
As for Lucci using water im pretty sure he would figure it out, the guy is an intelligence officer after all.

 

[McNuss]

The Crocodile that fought Luffy would never even lay a single finger on Lucci, the difference in basic speed and combat capabilities is clear between them, if we use the level Crocodile displayed in the war then yes he "might" beat Lucci but only because Lucci wouldn't be able to fight back.

Crocodile in the war is the same Crocodile that Luffy fought. You don't get miraculously stronger while in prison.

What difference? There is no need at all for Crocodile to engage with Lucci in close quarter combat. He did that in his final fight with Luffy because he felt his pride was hurt. Keep in mind that Robin also screwed over his entire plan that he worked on for years, and than that pesky little pirate rookie that was supposed to have died twice appears again and just never gives up. Crocodile didn't use much of his devil fruit arsenal anymore during his final fight.

 

[M3J]

Here is something I don't think we discussed thoroughly, Garp supposedly beat up the captain under which both Kaido and Big Mom were serving. What does that mean for Garp's power level I wonder?

Garp's been shown or implied to be extremely powerful, being one of the very few to corner Roger multiple times. He also tried to go after Akainu after Ace got turned into a flaming Swiss cheese. There's no way Garp isn't up there with some of the strongest. I think he could have been promoted to Admiral too if he didn't refuse.

@M3J yes pre TS luffy is stronger than crocodile but up till skypia luffy isnt stronger than crocodile this is how see it. Strongest villains till triller bark. Enel>Moria>crocodile>lucci>Kuro>don Kerieg>buggy>morgan>fat lady girl in the first arc

As for the durability it’s luffy>zoro>sanji the gap of their durability isn’t that far apart I don’t why y’all think luffy durability so much higher than the other 2.

No, Crocodile has been stronger than pre-timeskip Luffy; it's not until post timeskip that we can't tell if Luffy is stronger now.

The Marines would have done the same with any other Emperor attacking them. They have a face to keep, so they wanted to present the world an overwhelming victory. That didn't go as planned, the wall was ineffective due to Oars Jr, their treachery was ineffective due to Whitebeard forgiving Squard, their Pacifista proved to be easily handable by the New World Captains, thanks to Luffy and Mr 3 they almost lost their objective and lastly Blackbeard was able to gain the Gura Gura no Mi right in front of their eyes. But in the end the Marines won a clear victory. Ace and Whitebeard died and the Pirates were on the retreat, whith the three Admirals on their toes. If it weren't for Shanks and Trafalgar Law arriving, more people would have died including Luffy and Jinbei.

The thing is, the Marines invited Whitebeard to attack by executing Ace, otherwise Whitebeard wasn't planning on attacking. Their goal wasn't to just decimate the pirates, but to end the life of Roger's son and send a message. the victory wasn't as much of a victory because Ace was still saved, and Luffy changed the tide of battle singlehandedly, and that was before Blackbeard joined the fight. Otherwise the Marines were scared and would not have gone after Whitebeard.

Also no higher ranked Marine was actually scared. Sengoku was quite troubled, but he is the leader, he has the responsibilty and has to transport the seriousness of the situation to his subordinates. The three Admirals were all fearless even when facing Whitebeard.

It is quite clear that the Marines are the strongest military force in the world. However facing an emperor on one's own homeground is much easier than facing him on his. The marines would need to split up their forces as the emperors control many islands, and they would in turn leave the Paradise unprotected from pirates. YOu might win a battle, but you will not win a war just because you have the superior military power.

This is also the reason why the Yonko don't try to take each other out, the situation has reached a stalemate. However, when Whitebeard actually left his territory, Kaido immediately chased him but was somehow stopped by Shanks. That's also the reason why the Marines made such a big deal of Shanks meeting Whitebeard. Any move the Yonko make could trigger a chain of events that could completely shift the balance of the world. The New World is a barrel of gunpowder.

They were very nervous going up against Whitebeard, if not scared, even if the three admirals weren't. They were still careful though.

Yes, hence why there was a stalemate and why the Marines never tried anything against other Emperors, and why the Emperors didn't fight each other but wanted to amass more power first.

Kaidou's aim was to at least delay Whitebeard long enough that he was too late to save Ace. The Marines also feared Shanks and Whitebeard meeting, as far as I recall, because they didn't want both Emperors to join forces. If that happened, then the Marines would have stood no chance.

For me, breaking the leg of a legs specialist speaks for itself, especialy because Sanji can use Haki.

For me, Sanji still being able to move and act like he never got his leg broken speaks for itself.

Ya'll ever remember what it felt like to be in the middle of an Itachi vs Jiraiya forum lol

Sanji vs Zoro feels an aweful lot like that

Yeah, and it was dumb. Itachi clearly was superior, but we can assume Zoro is probably superior.

 

[LaGOAT]

Give me feats that show Crocodile and Moria > Lucci

Simple marine ford arc crocodile could tangle with yonko commanders lvl opponents while lucci barely tank a g3 luffy pre time skip

@M3J ehh that kinda toss up since luffy knows to beat him especially since he had g2 and 3 luffy will win again

 

[Shasha23]

Crocodile in the war is the same Crocodile that Luffy fought. You don't get miraculously stronger while in prison.

What difference? There is no need at all for Crocodile to engage with Lucci in close quarter combat. He did that in his final fight with Luffy because he felt his pride was hurt. Keep in mind that Robin also screwed over his entire plan that he worked on for years, and than that pesky little pirate rookie that was supposed to have died twice appears again and just never gives up. Crocodile didn't use much of his devil fruit arsenal anymore during his final fight.

Well he did, from being average vs Luffy to being able to block people like Doffy and nope Oda made him stronger!
Even if he tries Lucci can close the gap between them like nothing, no matter what Crocodile does Lucci is still above him in every stat.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 12, 2018 ---

Simple marine ford arc crocodile could tangle with yonko commanders lvl opponents while lucci barely tank a g3 luffy pre time skip

That very same Crocodile who was beaten by base form Luffy who in turn is weaker than Lucci, now how did you come to the conclusion that Crocodile is stronger again?

 

[LaGOAT]

Well he did, from being average vs Luffy to being able to block people like Doffy and nope Oda made him stronger!
Even if he tries Lucci can close the gap between them like nothing, no matter what Crocodile does Lucci is still above him in every stat.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 12, 2018 ---

That very same Crocodile who was beaten by base form Luffy who in turn is weaker than Lucci, now how did you come to the conclusion that Crocodile is stronger again?

I guess by ur logic base luffy attacks>Jozu attack 2.took 3 tries for this nigga luffy to win while it took luffy once vs lucci. 3.lucci only one advantage is he a better combat physical fighter

 

[nik87]

I would really like to see that fight post-time-skip, Lucci vs Crocodile with both having CoA and not plot bound to lose against a protagonist.

 

[Shasha23]

I guess by ur logic base luffy attacks>Jozu attack 2.took 3 tries for this nigga luffy to win while it took luffy once vs lucci. 3.lucci only one advantage is he a better combat physical fighter

But Jozu was simply pushing him back not really attacking him, before he could attack for real Doffy blocked him, Crocodile didnt tank any hit he got knocked back and started bleeding, thats not a feat on any book!
Why should it matter how many time it took Luffy to beat Crocodile, thats just............. logic there.

Yeap Lucci is better than Crocodile at every stat, the only thing Crocodile has going for him is his logia power but Lucci is intelligent enough to know to use water.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 12, 2018 ---

I would really like to see that fight post-time-skip, Lucci vs Crocodile with both having CoA and not plot bound to lose against a protagonist.

I just cant see Crocodile doing much in that fight, more so if Lucci doesn't have to worry about getting his fur wet

 

[nik87]

@Shasha23 I know that Lucci is a beast who was physically stronger than Crocodile back then and after time-skip is even stronger and if given CoA doesn't have a problem hitting a Logia but Marineford Crocodile gave me totally a different vibe. I would really like to see how they would battle it out, i think Crocodile's abilities are very deadly and he could be able to avoid Lucci's physical attacks similar to Katakuri/Aokiji, imo no need for that good observation or observation haki at all unless the attacks are at the very high speed. Crocodiles physical strength isn't too shabby either, clashing with Doflamingo and Mihawk didnt look like he was short on strength and we know how powerful Doffy is and only assume Mihawk's strength. Not sure how effective his sand blades with haki are against Lucci's tekkai+haki but his sandstorms could provide him some advantage and if he manages to grab Lucci he can dehydrate him.
Other than his Logia abilities i am more interested in their physical showdown. Hopefully, Oda will do those matchups once OP is completed.

 

[M3J]

Can Lucci even hurt Crocodile without CoA? Lucci's advantage against Luffy was that Luffy is a paramecia who still can get wounded by sharp objects whereas logias like Crocodile can avoid attacks or not get wounded unless their weakness hits them, or they get hit with CoA.

 

[Shasha23]

Can Lucci even hurt Crocodile without CoA? Lucci's advantage against Luffy was that Luffy is a paramecia who still can get wounded by sharp objects whereas logias like Crocodile can avoid attacks or not get wounded unless their weakness hits them, or they get hit with CoA.

Lucci is intelligent enough to figure out to use water against him.
Lucci could hurt Luffy not just because he was a paramecia, his punches were strong enough to even make the rubber-man bleed, something only people using CoA have been able to do.

 

[M3J]

DIdn't Shigan work like a bullet? Lucci said that if Luffy wasn't rubber, his neck would have had a hole.

Doesn't guarantee Lucci's gonna win. Luffy figured that out as well but still nearly died in the second round.

 

[Fox666]

I don't think Luffy can get hurt if just enough strength can be used. Moriah hit Luffy with an attack that split his island ship in half to no effect.

I am guessing it's more accurate to compare Shigan to this...

 

[Copy Panda]

Tbh I've always thought Moriah as Jinbe+ level but super lazy. Kind of stopped training, gave up becoming super strong and decided to build something strong instead

 

[Shasha23]

DIdn't Shigan work like a bullet? Lucci said that if Luffy wasn't rubber, his neck would have had a hole.

Doesn't guarantee Lucci's gonna win. Luffy figured that out as well but still nearly died in the second round.

Lucci's overall combat stats are much higher than Crocodile, unless Crocodile shows he has dramatically improved it would be impossible for him to win in a fair fight.
Yeah Lucci in normal form couldnt hurt Luffy with shigan but in his half/half form his shigan were able to hurt Luffy, but lets not forget he didnt need shigan since his kicks and punches were strong enough to damage Luffy who is a rubber man

I don't think Luffy can get hurt if just enough strength can be used. Moriah hit Luffy with an attack that split his island ship in half to no effect.

I am guessing it's more accurate to compare Shigan to this...

Yet Lucci was able to punch Luffy so hard he coughed out blood, something that cant happen to a rubberman.