It shown a lot Luffy see Sanji on leadership and command like the assault on BMP for one as well hearing him lead during different arcs like Enies Lobby for example. There also been other characters treated on same status with each other with no authority over the other like King and Queen for example. Oda does show it a lot with certain crews on their dynamic.
I'm talking specifically if the term "Left Hand Man" is used in the series in the same way we've seen characters referred to as "First Mate/Vice-Captain", because I couldn't remember that it had been. So I guess the Left Hand Man is more of a term you and others use to refer to Sanji and the assumption you have on other characters.
Sanji does have leadership qualities, that's not questionable but so do Franky and Nami too. I don't think all crews are set up in ways to have a Right Hand Man/Vice Captain, none of the yonko crews besides Shanks seem to have that. There is a meritocracy based on strength and from their conversations, it would seem King and Queen would be closer in strength but King is shown as the more authoritative of the two.
I wouldn't really use that as a example on this as you can tell different of relationship on how Aizen seen Gin and Tousen differently and not really should use same of another series for OP given they work different on dynamics. There been more cases where Luffy leave Sanji in charge than just Zou one and even others took his lead and authority before. You don't need to say 'left-hand man' to know Sanji is seen in that position with Luffy just same we don't here anyone calling Zoro 'right-hand man' in manga and more calling him the 'subordinate' if anything, but doesn't take away on how Luffy see them both when he isn't around in taking care of the crew.
I'm not comparing Tousen to Sanji, because there is clearly a difference in their relationships with Aizen and Luffy respectively. I'm just using him as another example of the left hand man designation.
Luffy trust Sanji implicitly, as we saw many times. But the narrative makes it pretty clear that Zoro is the second in the crew. And keep in mind, I don't even think they are all that far apart in power.
I'm talking specifically if the term "Left Hand Man" is used in the series in the same way we've seen characters referred to as "First Mate/Vice-Captain", because I couldn't remember that it had been. So I guess the Left Hand Man is more of a term you and others use to refer to Sanji and the assumption you have on other characters.
Sanji does have leadership qualities, that's not questionable but so do Franky and Nami too. I don't think all crews are set up in ways to have a Right Hand Man/Vice Captain, none of the yonko crews besides Shanks seem to have that. There is a meritocracy based on strength and from their conversations, it would seem King and Queen would be closer in strength but King is shown as the more authoritative of the two.
Not really as it shown even in manga about set leaderships when captain isn't around at times too. You don't here others call them Vice-Captains or anything like that, but we get heavily implied vibe on who is in charge when captain isn't around. It's not fanon thing nor one-time with one group as there are certain others around.
True, not saying he is only one, but times of action, the crew do let Sanji and Zoro take the leader despite Nami and Franky having leadership. Only time those two take charge are for their occupation like navigation or how the ship need to be fix respectively. Everyone have free will in Strawhats to do what they want, but during time of actions Sanji and Zoro (If not to lead somewhere with him) due take charge over them more compare to rest of the crew.
Also you are right as not all crews are set like that, but some do have the dynamic of having two people in charge, but not each other like King and Queen. Idk about that on that as never has Queen taken his lead on anything nor anything implied who is stronger of the 2. It heavily implied they are equal not just in power, but in authority since never seen anything where Oda state who is better than other on.
I'm not comparing Tousen to Sanji, because there is clearly a difference in their relationships with Aizen and Luffy respectively. I'm just using him as another example of the left hand man designation.
Luffy trust Sanji implicitly, as we saw many times. But the narrative makes it pretty clear that Zoro is the second in the crew. And keep in mind, I don't even think they are all that far apart in power.
Ah I see. Thought you were pushing around it something else than it is, but still not really example to use on that on position as probably would work with another group than that.
He is, but Zoro never been call much on that and is more call the underling or subordinate on his end. We see him as right-hand by how he acts while others don't say while we see same with Sanji in same vibe. Just saying Sanji and Zoro are seen most as ones to take action if captain not around or to come after Luffy when he doing something. We seen many examples of this display, so not farfetched to see Sanji and Zoro are his Left-Hand Man and Right-Hand Man respectively.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me pre Ennies Lobby Sanji could barely break through Blueno's tekkai...
With Jabra though, wasn't Sanji clearly above him power-level wise? I mean at least in anime he seemed to be superior. Even his normal kicks were effective against Jabra's tekkai, no?
Both Anime and Manga shows Jabra was in pain even with his kicks from no-named to named attacks before DJ. It's clear Sanji already broke though at start of the fight.
I'm not comparing Tousen to Sanji, because there is clearly a difference in their relationships with Aizen and Luffy respectively. I'm just using him as another example of the left hand man designation.
Luffy trust Sanji implicitly, as we saw many times. But the narrative makes it pretty clear that Zoro is the second in the crew. And keep in mind, I don't even think they are all that far apart in power.
i agree. The relationship between luffy and sanji is just another relationship like with usopp, franky, chopper.
Meanwhile, oda put a huge emphasis on first mate relationship. We saw this on roger-rayleigh
i agree. The relationship between luffy and sanji is just another relationship like with usopp, franky, chopper.
Meanwhile, oda put a huge emphasis on first mate relationship. We saw this on roger-rayleigh
Nah, Luffy actually see them all alike on same level. He values them all equally, but he trust Sanji and maybe Zoro (If it wasn't for his gag in getting lost) to take charge while he isn't around. Roger shown to have same faith in both Rayleigh and Gaban given we saw in flashback they can lead the crew and they take orders for them. Even suggest in their conversation he sees them as his top guys together, so same with Sanji and Zoro.
Nah, Luffy actually see them all alike on same level. He values them all equally, but he trust Sanji and maybe Zoro (If it wasn't for his gag in getting lost) to take charge while he isn't around. Roger shown to have same faith in both Rayleigh and Gaban given we saw in flashback they can lead the crew and they take orders for them. Even suggest in their conversation he sees them as his top guys together, so same with Sanji and Zoro.
luffy trusted his crew, i never said he didn't. But luffy and zoro had a special dynamic since he's the first mate. Not to mention zoro took charge of the decision sometimes. See how zoro made luffy to stand his ground and demanded for usopp to apologize after enies lobby fight. That's a right hand fellow for luffy.
Sanji doesn't have that relationship with luffy, which is fine.
luffy trusted his crew, i never said he didn't. But luffy and zoro had a special dynamic since he's the first mate. Not to mention zoro took charge of the decision sometimes. See how zoro made luffy to stand his ground and demanded for usopp to apologize after enies lobby fight. That's a right hand fellow for luffy.
Sanji doesn't have that relationship with luffy, which is fine.
I know they do as that is just Zoro given he was first to join him, but Luffy see Sanji on same position of Zoro in taking care of the crew just like him as he has both left-hand man and right hand man as shown how they act together and when Luffy isn't around. Never stated Zoro wasn't one, but just that Luffy see them both in charge when he isn't there. Also in that situation, both Sanji and Zoro agree on Usopp's actions even when Luffy, Chopper, Nami, and Robin weren't expecting them to be against bringing him back in.
While looking for Zoro's vivre card translation, I came across a great piece of writing regarding roles within the crew; specifically that of Sanji/Zoro. It provides a lot of examples that I had myself forgotten about and summarised their roles based on what their vivre card translations state. The post ends by saying:
As far as the narrative perspective is concerned; Zoro has always been implied in the light of “Right Hand Man” or “First Mate” or “Vice Captain”, be it the opinion of other characters, him being compared to his Captain often, or his public reputation- or the running theme of him partaking in several narrative actions, both minor and major, like the writer choice of having him take Luffy’s fatigue over Sanji during Thriller Bark, having him be the one to explain to us readers what 3D2Y meant, and countless others.
I don’t think there’s an hierarchy within the crew, but if I have to come up with an unofficial one, in my opinion it’d be:
Captain: Luffy First Mate: Zoro Second Mate and Strategist: Sanji
It gives examples of situations where both Sanji and Zoro have acted in these capacities, and also reminded me that Sanji (especially pre-timeskip) was used a lot in being the advisor/strategist to the crew. Second Mate sounds more accurate to me, especially as it concerns pirates rather than left hand man which seems random.
While looking for Zoro's vivre card translation, I came across a great piece of writing regarding roles within the crew; specifically that of Sanji/Zoro. It provides a lot of examples that I had myself forgotten about and summarised their roles based on what their vivre card translations state. The post ends by saying:
It gives examples of situations where both Sanji and Zoro have acted in these capacities, and also reminded me that Sanji (especially pre-timeskip) was used a lot in being the advisor/strategist to the crew. Second Mate sounds more accurate to me, especially as it concerns pirates rather than left hand man which seems random.
That's what I been saying on how Luffy sees them both as leading the crew while he isn't around as Sanji and Zoro have taken lead many times during time of action and crisis most of the time.
Also should we place databooks as effectively as been told that sometimes they have inaccurate information that manga have reveal, but they didn't though?
Also should we place databooks as effectively as been told that sometimes they have inaccurate information that manga have reveal, but they didn't though?
There are some information regarding appearance and other personal details that are sometimes conflicting but I don't think there's nothing on Sanji's or Zoro's vivre card entries that's inaccurate. What information are you talking about exactly?
There are some information regarding appearance and other personal details that are sometimes conflicting but I don't think there's nothing on Sanji's or Zoro's vivre card entries that's inaccurate. What information are you talking about exactly?
Idk we can't pick or choose like that as otherwise wouldn't it be hypocritical to believe one source from there, but not the other. Feel we should rely more on manga before deep on datatbooks unless Oda stated something different that datatbooks were wrong on. Though it's obvious Zoro is treated like right-hand man while Sanji is treated as left-hand man. Basically Luffy's top guys is what I mean in my talks.
I think read certain infos are mismatch like who has Haki and don't have it in certain characters, but manga and SBS shown otherwise different about the case?
Idk we can't pick or choose like that as otherwise wouldn't it be hypocritical to believe one source from there, but not the other. Feel we should rely more on manga before deep on datatbooks unless Oda stated something different that datatbooks were wrong on. Though it's obvious Zoro is treated like right-hand man while Sanji is treated as left-hand man. Basically Luffy's top guys is what I mean in my talks.
I think read certain infos are mismatch like who has Haki and don't have it in certain characters, but manga and SBS shown otherwise different about the case?
Okay but what from our current discussion differs from the manga and databook? because the link to the post I provided has manga pages confirming entries from the databook. So I wouldn't call that hypocritical. Unless we're debating errors in characters birthdays which sometimes happens between what Oda agrees with a fan in SBS and what is listed in the databooks, I've not seen information regarding plot elements differ( basically abilities). I'm happy to be proven wrong though.
I think what you're referring to is Ace's vivrecard databook entry, in which it lists him as only have CoC but doesn't specify if he has Armemant or Observation; which is in line with his portrayal in the manga. It's the Novel that lists him as having the latter, which for one isn't something confirmed in the manga or databook, which is why it's never really brought up in discussions when referring to Ace. Other than, I'm not sure what else you're referring to as any other character who's abilities aren't listed in the databook just means it hasn't been revealed in the series.
Okay but what from our current discussion differs from the manga and databook? because the link to the post I provided has manga pages confirming entries from the databook. So I wouldn't call that hypocritical. Unless we're debating errors in characters birthdays which sometimes happens between what Oda agrees with a fan in SBS and what is listed in the databooks, I've not seen information regarding plot elements differ( basically abilities). I'm happy to be proven wrong though.
I think what you're referring to is Ace's vivrecard databook entry, in which it lists him as only have CoC but doesn't specify if he has Armemant or Observation; which is in line with his portrayal in the manga. It's the Novel that lists him as having the latter, which for one isn't something confirmed in the manga or databook, which is why it's never really brought up in discussions when referring to Ace. Other than, I'm not sure what else you're referring to as any other character who's abilities aren't listed in the databook just means it hasn't been revealed in the series.
Again just saying databooks don't have full aspect of information, so don't rely on them as true canon when manga and SBS could state different about it about character's abilities and situation like Haki for example.
Ace one is example of that as well others being stated like Sengoku and Kidd having COC that was reveal more through Oda side compare to other source of information to be honest.
Not really on stuff if manga and SBS reveal something not in it or Oda states something different. You got trust more manga and SBS than databooks especially they can't be updated with specific book compare to manga and SBS which can be updated just by what Oda says.
Sanji been shown as left-hand to Luffy especially how much he values him in taking action even when he isn't around just like with Zoro.
Not really on stuff if manga and SBS reveal something not in it or Oda states something different. You got trust more manga and SBS than databooks especially they can't be updated with specific book compare to manga and SBS which can be updated just by what Oda says.
Sanji been shown as left-hand to Luffy especially how much he values him in taking action even when he isn't around just like with Zoro.
as said, unless.....
i implied that databook is canon if the manga doesn't have any information on it. Nothing suggests sanji is left hand position, that is more inclined for jinbei to be honest
as said, unless.....
i implied that databook is canon if the manga doesn't have any information on it. Nothing suggests sanji is left hand position, that is more inclined for jinbei to be honest
He has moments of ordering Crew when Luffy isn't around many times and it does implies he is someone Luffy trust in leading the crew when he isn't around.
Seems like your stating Databook should be believe more over Manga and SBS despite Oda can describe it more on the latters compare to set databook from the past. Again, better to believe more in the latter than the former is what I am saying.
He has moments of ordering Crew when Luffy isn't around many times and it does implies he is someone Luffy trust in leading the crew when he isn't around.
Seems like your stating Databook should be believe more over Manga and SBS despite Oda can describe it more on the latters compare to set databook from the past. Again, better to believe more in the latter than the former is what I am saying.
you misunderstand what i said. The canon in manga preceded the databook, but there is nothing that explicitly states sanji as the left hand both in the manga and databook. You just claim he is.
