Games Mafia Game 84 - MH Hydra - END GAME

[Copy Panda]

A long time ago on Hydra Vote Z

Spoiler: Flashback

omomo

A relatively shorter while ago on Hydra Vote Z

Spoiler: [Before the presentation] Day 2 Belsaph arc got cut short by the Vankaku

One VanPlan in the backyard later

Spoiler: [Slide 1] - Night 2 The JoJo franchise collapses

Spoiler: [Slide 2] Day 3 Blackuchi bites the dust

​

To be continued...

 

[Purity of Magi]

A bit of a flashback of this game

....

Basically Takuans Lynch being discussed in a nutshell

Spoiler

Confirmed townie basically yet still pointed as suspicious

Spoiler

How to throw a game

Spoiler

Deadpad talk:

How the game basically ended:

How to use logic and gain trust in Raven style

Spoiler

What have we learned?

Nothing.



Mafia game basically

Spoiler

 

[Farfalla]

Ah ok, we were actually tidy so it was easy to make the final updates. Here are the lists:

Spoiler: Roles

Santa Gifts (Permanent Role Changes):

• Mason
• Mason
• Doctor (Sane if Town)
• Spy (Sane)
• Spirit Medium

Spoiler: Actions

And yes mafia was pink just cause pink = pretty red

 

[Farfalla]

Not defending the stupid lynch of Taku, but Panda certainly has this fame for a reason and you can‘t blame people for playing his games with weird assumptions.

Weird assumptions shouldn't be excuses for bad decision making, though.
And I'm personally not a fan of people remarking his fame while they have their own, sounds like hypocrisy to me, but that's me.

 

[GrySun]

That said this may be the most „tame“ panda game yet, only crazy thing being the Santa gifts(you guys really love to make Masons worthless).

 

[Farfalla]

Question: do we really need to have those 4 roles "for test" after 2 years?

In the mean time, we had roles approved thar went straight to the rules. Also had roles removed 'cause they became problematic. So I don't see why we separate those ones?

 

[GrySun]

In the mean time, we had roles approved thar went straight to the rules.

Example?

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 15, 2020 ---

Only Mafia Politician and Secondary Role Sickly are new to role list, and they‘re not new roles but changed allegiances that were voted to be put into rules than into role suggestions.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2020 ---

And yes we need to have it „for test“ for years so long as nobody tests them enough to either put them in or reject them.

 

[James Rye]

With that train of thought, mafia is outnumbered 4 (and a half?) vs 11, with town having very strong roles. Sounds unfair, doesn't it?

First of all, Mafia is ALWAYS outnumbered, usually 3 to 1. Show me a game that starts with 1:1 ratio of mafia vs townie and I show you a game that ends on day 1 with a mafia win. Second, they can kill us at night, we cannot. Third, it's not 11 when it is 10 due traitor. Fourth, Santa was ultimately a town role destroyer so all those strong roles? Pretty much worthless with a Santa running around turning everyone into a mason, our sole det got done in that way. Fifth, the whole deal of being Mafia is taking down the outnumbering town bit by bit, not suddenly have 5 members and win on day 3 while half of town is still alive, that would be boring and bollocks.
Just don't make games where we have only 1.6 townies vs 1 not-townie, those games depended too much on not-townies killing each other or townie lynching not-townies very early on in the game to prevent an early ending game. At least make it 2.something to make the game last longer than 3 day phases if in theory everything went perfect for mafia.

 

[Copy Panda]

'Panda game' has become the 'thanks obama' of this community

 

[Farfalla]

Example?

Barkeeper. Even Martyr, no?

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 15, 2020 ---

Only Mafia Politician and Secondary Role Sickly are new to role list, and they‘re not new roles but changed allegiances that were voted to be put into rules than into role suggestions.

Spirit Medium also came after it, no?

 

[Copy Panda]

First of all, Mafia is ALWAYS outnumbered, usually 3 to 1. Show me a game that starts with 1:1 ratio of mafia vs townie and I show you a game that ends on day 1 with a mafia win. Second, they can kill us at night, we cannot. Third, it's not 11 when it is 10 due traitor. Fourth, Santa was ultimately a town role destroyer so all those strong roles? Pretty much worthless with a Santa running around turning everyone into a mason, our sole det got done in that way. Fifth, the whole deal of being Mafia is taking down the outnumbering town bit by bit, not suddenly have 5 members and win on day 3 while half of town is still alive, that would be boring and bollocks.
Just don't make games where we have only 1.6 townies vs 1 not-townie, those games depended too much on not-townies killing each other or townie lynching not-townies very early on in the game to prevent an early ending game. At least make it 2.something to make the game last longer than 3 day phases if in theory everything went perfect for mafia.

Bro you talking about perfect theory when over the course of 12 hours four people stopped playing the game? Town won, you guys just threw by not playing? As for the game itself, didn't most traps btw not reveal themselves early on or offer themselves up to die? You and Taku for instance? Didn't you yourself say this game would be too small/difficult for Santa?

Look at that list and tell me town is outmatched by the mafia please. If anyone wants to argue balance, my workday ended so I'm ready to detoxify if you catch my drift.

 

[GrySun]

Barkeeper. Even Martyr, no?

Those 2 were removed entirely, that's unrelated to what you said that some roles were put in without being listed "for testing".

Spirit Medium also came after it, no?

No, Spirit Medium was in the "to test" list, had a decent first game test, then it was put into the role list.

It was tested in Game 72 over a year ago:

New Roles Testing

\/

At least one of the following roles is being tested, that means from just one... to all of them.

Spoiler: Super Mason

Super Mason (Secondary Role/Townie)
A townie with a role at the start of the game. When he/she got recruited by the Mason Recruiter, he/she will not lose his/her original role. (e.g. Super Mason Doctor, Super Mason Detective)

Spoiler: Substitute Teacher

Substitute Teacher (Townie)
The Substitute Teacher can only win with third party Mentor/Mentee. He has one guess per day to guess who the Mentor is. If he guesses correctly he joins the Mentor/Mentee group. If the Mentor dies at any point after the Substitute Teacher joined his group, the Substitute Teacher changes his role into Mentor. If both Mentor and Mentee die before he joins them he commits suicide the following night.

Spoiler: Spirit Medium

Spirit Medium (Townie)
The Spirit Medium can target a dead Townie player. He gets to know which players that Townie targeted every Day/Night, in chronological order. But he doesn't find out any action results.

Spoiler: Mafia Apprentice

Mafia Apprentice (Mafia)
At the start of the game, the host presents the Mafia Apprentice with up to three mafia roles of the host's choosing. If the Mafia Apprentice successfully kills twice, he can pick one of those roles to become his primary role for the rest of the game.

-----------------o-----------------

As you see Super Mason and Substitute Teacher have been on that list even back then, since then SM and Mafia Apprentice were tested and included, and some new roles were put for testing.

 

[Farfalla]

Those 2 were removed entirely, that's unrelated to what you said that some roles were put in without being listed "for testing".

Yes, thought you quoted a different part.

No, Spirit Medium was in the "to test" list, had a decent first game test, then it was put into the role list.

It was tested in Game 72 over a year ago:

Fair enough, then.

 

[Hardy]

First of all, Mafia is ALWAYS outnumbered, usually 3 to 1. Show me a game that starts with 1:1 ratio of mafia vs townie and I show you a game that ends on day 1 with a mafia win. Second, they can kill us at night, we cannot. Third, it's not 11 when it is 10 due traitor. Fourth, Santa was ultimately a town role destroyer so all those strong roles? Pretty much worthless with a Santa running around turning everyone into a mason, our sole det got done in that way. Fifth, the whole deal of being Mafia is taking down the outnumbering town bit by bit, not suddenly have 5 members and win on day 3 while half of town is still alive, that would be boring and bollocks.
Just don't make games where we have only 1.6 townies vs 1 not-townie, those games depended too much on not-townies killing each other or townie lynching not-townies very early on in the game to prevent an early ending game. At least make it 2.something to make the game last longer than 3 day phases if in theory everything went perfect for mafia.

First yes of course they are outnumbered, didn't say the opposite. Don't pull a strawman, that's obnoxious. In the last 7 games, 3 didn't follow your 3x1 criteria, so it's not as usual as you are making it seem (nor is it as simple as just numbers).

Second yes that's how the game works.

Third I counted 11 because you did the same when you counted santa among the mafias, which is disingenuous. The traitor was the an a half.

Fourth, that is only one way to look at it. Masons could had been absurdly OP in this game but you guys didn't take advantage of it. Santa affected both teams both ways, in an unpredictable manner as I said (which probably means it shouldn't had been included) but it doesn't tip the balance to either side from moment 0, that's silly.

Fifth wth is this even? Did we play the same game? That's not the case at all.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 15, 2020 ---

Day one santa lynched scav recruited, it's 10 vs 5.
D/n 2: 2 more kills 8 vs 5
D/n 3: 2 more kills 6 vs 5
D/n 4: 1 more kill 5 vs 5

It's still a 4 day even with town fucking up 3/4 times and everything going perfectly for mafias, what are you on about? If everything goes perfect for town it's the same quantity of cycles btw.

 

[Vandred]

We were honestly busy, and as you said, that's a "courtesy". In general could be done, but not in that specific case, baby sitting wasn't doable for us then (and, overall, we were often throwing warnings). Doesn't remove the annoyance of seeing people make such a silly mistake after so many games.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2020 ---

=_= I guess we deseve this kind of shit ^ huh...

It was an honest question, the townies got all the shit for wasting 15 hours but it felt like the hosts were kind of throwing too

Since it looked like an avoidable situation I was wondering if you deliberately decided to punish those who hadn't posted. If you were busy can't be helped.

Question: do we really need to have those 4 roles "for test" after 2 years?

In the mean time, we had roles approved thar went straight to the rules. Also had roles removed 'cause they became problematic. So I don't see why we separate those ones?

- Not sure how much Mafia Doctor has been tested yet, nor if it was ever relevant in a game yet. Probably the only one I'd say can join the list due to being pretty straightforward.
- The only time I remember Super Mason getting recruited was when I was Sleeper, a borderline case which led to some furious tilting and not much else. I'm also personally still undecided on the idea of having recruitable power roles being a good one, but with Masons having already been nerfed to the ground, I don't have a strong opinion about it.
- Robber is kind of an iffy role with peculiar conditions that might need refining, and currently up for approval in the big list if I'm not mistaken.
- Substitute Teacher should be removed asap.

Apart from the last one, all those would benefit from more testing if you ask me. And as Gry said, Mafia Politician and Sickly were modifications to existing roles rather than new additions.

 

[Hardy]

It was an honest question, the townies got all the shit for wasting 15 hours but it felt like the hosts were kind of throwing too

Since it looked like an avoidable situation I was wondering if you deliberately decided to punish those who hadn't posted. If you were busy can't be helped.

Yeah it's the hosts' work to babysit the players so that they do the bare minimum of posting 3 times (among two people!!!!) in 16 hours.

 

[Vandred]

Yeah it's the hosts' work to babysit the players so that they do the bare minimum of posting 3 times (among two people!!!!) in 16 hours.

If they give a shit about their game not ending like it did, yeah they can make the bare minimum effort on their part.

 

[Hardy]

If they give a shit about their game not ending like it did, yeah they can make the bare minimum effort on their part.

Aight it's the hosts' fault that the players lose a game they aren't playing.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 15, 2020 ---

Let's see if that works in my next LoL match

 

[Raven]

well league gives you a warning if you went afk in base.

 

[Hardy]

well league gives you a warning if you went afk in base.

Damn, outplayed. This is why you are the one with the penta highlights.

 

[GrySun]

Aight it's the hosts' fault that the players lose a game they aren't playing.

Players are certainly at fault but don't pretend like they couldn't have prevented it. They don't have to, but hosts don't have to do many things, like answering people's questions. Not the hosts fault they're confused and can't read the rule threads.

 

[Farfalla]

It was an honest question, the townies got all the shit for wasting 15 hours but it felt like the hosts were kind of throwing too

Since it looked like an avoidable situation I was wondering if you deliberately decided to punish those who hadn't posted. If you were busy can't be helped.

It was more like an assumption than a question, but meh. And no, I think it's simply cruel to punish people like that, specially 'cause Ik those specific people would/did get borderline depressed with it. Not to mention it means punishing the players as a whole, in spite of all that effort they put into the game. I kinda hope no one ever pulls that intentionally, lol? That's simply toxic...

I set an alarm to wake up 1h before the end of the phase to recollect things and aid Panda, and while checking the threads to prepare to finish the day, my boss engaged with me to prep for a meeting we had after the phase would end (I took a week off to host, had 150 emails in my box, and wasn't even aware I'd have a meeting in my first working hour after my return - cause the invitation was among those emails). Panda spent the game juggling with classes and work hours as well, sometimes we simply can't antecipate if something will happen and keep us from doing everything we could do, so we stick to our actual duties.

Mentioning those things above to say I disagree this best practice (sending warnings) should get promoted to some kind of rule. Players are requested to follow the basic ones, and I wanna believe hosts do their best for their games? Demanding those people to be available to the point they have to commit to extra warnings (and God knows how many) might make it impractical. But that's my view, people are free to debate that.. (if I got your first post correctly, when you mentioned hosts should always give warnings).


About the testing roles, I agree they weren't properly tested yet, and Gry answered they are following the process the other roles did. I didn't recall SM, for example, had gone thru the same.

 

[scav]

When the game thread turn into a salt factory