American Politics

[xi0]

I think it was smart by Biden to cater to the blue leaning republicans. Like that, even among republicans they 'biden is controlled by antifa' narrative didnt work as well as it could have.
I also think he should start catering at least a little bit to the left right now, or at least very soon.

There are no "blue-leaning republicans". A republican would record themselves wiping their ass with the flag before they voted for a Democrat. Democrats have some sort of weird obsession with acting like Trump's rhetoric trumps his policies. The Lincoln Project only existed for people on the right to act like they had some sort of moral objection to Trump's presidency. By and large they have no real ideological differences with him. He lost in places like Georgia because of the efforts of people like Stacy Abrams and he lost in Arizona because of his insistence on shitting on John McCain. Never-Trump Republicans did nothing more than wage a PR effort to distance themselves from him. They obviously had no interest in the Senate and House races, which were of pretty high importance to Democrats as well. I have no idea why anyone would insist on crediting them, not supporting a demonstrable piece of shit isn't worth some sort of celebration.

He'll never cater to the left, because Democrats naively think that costs them elections instead of nominating popular candidates, or supporting popular ideas, or energizing young and minority voters. The grand irony is Republicans will call you a hammer and sickle marxist even if you're a moderate. You're seeing it now.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 16, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 16, 2020 ---

Biden won the election and he won by getting more white and old voters who would usually vote republican than Clinton did.

This happened because 1) he's not Hillary Clinton and 2) he's not a woman. It's not a result of Biden catering to anyone. Don't forget, more people still voted for Hillary over Trump. Having even higher turnout and Trump's handling of COVID-19 are the main reasons he lost.

 

[shionoro]

There are no "blue-leaning republicans". A republican would record themselves wiping their ass with the flag before they voted for a Democrat. Democrats have some sort of weird obsession with acting like Trump's rhetoric trumps his policies. The Lincoln Project only existed for people on the right to act like they had some sort of moral objection to Trump's presidency. By and large they have no real ideological differences with him. He lost in places like Georgia because of the efforts of people like Stacy Abrams and he lost in Arizona because of his insistence on shitting on John McCain. Never-Trump Republicans did nothing more than wage a PR effort to distance themselves from him. They obviously had no interest in the Senate and House races, which were of pretty high importance to Democrats as well. I have no idea why anyone would insist on crediting them, not supporting a demonstrable piece of shit isn't worth some sort of celebration.

He'll never cater to the left, because Democrats naively think that costs them elections instead of nominating popular candidates, or supporting popular ideas, or energizing young and minority voters. The grand irony is Republicans will call you a hammer and sickle marxist even if you're a moderate. You're seeing it now.

There evidently are. There are swing voters who voted Trump but voted Biden this time, or rather, who often vote red but voted blue this time or stayed home because they didnt perceive Biden as the same threat they perceived clinton as.
That is just a fact.
Efforts like those of Stacy Abrams would not have been possible if Biden would have let the republicans paint him as even the slightest bit open to things like defunding the police or similar ideas that are popular on the left. Him keeping his distance from these ideas and playing the 'unity' card was the smartest thing he could have done.

This happened because 1) he's not Hillary Clinton and 2) he's not a woman. It's not a result of Biden catering to anyone. Don't forget, more people still voted for Hillary over Trump. Having even higher turnout and Trump's handling of COVID-19 are the main reasons he lost.

That is just a claim. Let's keep in mind that back when Sanders was in the race, Biden still polled better in head to head polls against Trump than Sanders did.
Let's also keep in mind that Biden was more successful than both the house and senate democrats.
Biden did better in states like georgia than the democrats in the senate race, he also did better in many states than the house democrats.

It is undeniable that Biden had a very successful strategy as a candidate.

Biden won the election but that doesn't mean he actually succeeded in getting votes from republicans... people showed up to vote in droves, you have historic turnout. republicans in general also showed up in historic numbers to support trump.

Biden is without an iota of a hack a corporate hack. The label is fair and well earned through every single day and through most positions he has ever taken. Biden is the "nothing will fundamentally change" candidate. That smallest consensus you mention biden should aim for.... Not gonna happen, it can't happen. It's not where the country is at. Biden right now is essentially running without an agenda and as such his success chances exist as much as his agenda. Biden could get the US back on track on the international stage, rebuild alliance and such. And that would be immensely important. But to people living in the US that means jack shit. Just like it meant jack shit when they elected trump in spite of the incredible effectiveness of the strategy against ISIS at the time (on which trump piggybagged) and even the iran deal, an actual diplomatic solution to at least several issues with iran.

I will also add that the reason biden doesn't get behind defunding the police isn't because its politically inconvenient. It's because he doesn't believe the police needs reforming.

How is that a fair label in the wake of american politics? Which longterm high profile politicans aside from popular leftist icons are not corporate hacks in your opinion?

Also: If Biden didnt get votes from republicans who would usually vote red but voted blue this time, why did lots of people vote Biden but not the blue senator in their state?
You cannot only explain that with Trumps unpopularity. Biden made it easy for a republican who loathed Trump to vote for him, that is why he was successful in states where the few republicans that could be swayed mattered, like pennsylvania and georgia.
I am not saying the turnout did not matter, it sure did, but so did that Biden could not be used to create a bigger republican turnout on the other side.

Had Biden done things like endorse defunding the police, a wealth tax and the complete green deal, these things could have gone very differently.
This was a close election, these votes mattered.

And it is also going to matter if the senate turns red.

 

[xi0]

There evidently are. There are swing voters who voted Trump but voted Biden this time, or rather, who often vote red but voted blue this time or stayed home because they didnt perceive Biden as the same threat they perceived clinton as.
That is just a fact.
Efforts like those of Stacy Abrams would not have been possible if Biden would have let the republicans paint him as even the slightest bit open to things like defunding the police or similar ideas that are popular on the left. Him keeping his distance from these ideas and playing the 'unity' card was the smartest thing he could have done.

Yeah but that's not a credit to Biden catering to them IMO. The "unity" card means nothing on it's own, it was just in stark contrast to Trump.

Those ideas aren't popular among Democrats though, that's right-wing media speak. It's not some smart play really, he was never going to be for those types of things unless they were popular. Which they aren't among the average Democrat. Sure, police reform might be, but if you're going to treat the expression without any nuance, of course it's not a popular concept. The effort to paint Harris as some raving socialist lunatic when she herself has a terrible anti-progressive history California or that either were just some Antifa puppet also failed. Nothing about their ticket was inspiring, it merely represented a return to "normal" and a removal of a cringe-inducing wannabe-autocrat that fumbled the response to the largest public health crisis in the last century.

That is just a claim. Let's keep in mind that back when Sanders was in the race, Biden still polled better in head to head polls against Trump than Sanders did.
Let's also keep in mind that Biden was more successful than both the house and senate democrats.
Biden did better in states like georgia than the democrats in the senate race, he also did better in many states than the house democrats.

It is undeniable that Biden had a very successful strategy as a candidate.

You've lost context there though. Biden polled better after Harris, Buttegieg, and Klobuchar dropped out and uniformly endorsed him within a week before Super Tuesday. Let's not pretend like that was accidental lol. Sanders polled better than Clinton did against Trump as well, but why was his candidacy largely ignored by the Democratic establishment? It's certainly not because he would stand no chance against Trump.

Biden was more successful than the House for sure, but not the Senate really. Democrats hoped to flip the Senate, but they still gained a seat and might gain 2 after the GA runoff. But yeah, I guess it was still it disappointing for those delusional enough to hope for a Blue Wave by marching Biden out there as the party's best hope.

 

[kkck]

There evidently are. There are swing voters who voted Trump but voted Biden this time, or rather, who often vote red but voted blue this time or stayed home because they didnt perceive Biden as the same threat they perceived clinton as.
That is just a fact.
Efforts like those of Stacy Abrams would not have been possible if Biden would have let the republicans paint him as even the slightest bit open to things like defunding the police or similar ideas that are popular on the left. Him keeping his distance from these ideas and playing the 'unity' card was the smartest thing he could have done.

How is that a fair label in the wake of american politics? Which longterm high profile politicans aside from popular leftist icons are not corporate hacks in your opinion?

Also: If Biden didnt get votes from republicans who would usually vote red but voted blue this time, why did lots of people vote Biden but not the blue senator in their state?
You cannot only explain that with Trumps unpopularity. Biden made it easy for a republican who loathed Trump to vote for him, that is why he was successful in states where the few republicans that could be swayed mattered, like pennsylvania and georgia.
I am not saying the turnout did not matter, it sure did, but so did that Biden could not be used to create a bigger republican turnout on the other side.

Had Biden done things like endorse defunding the police, a wealth tax and the complete green deal, these things could have gone very differently.
This was a close election, these votes mattered.

And it is also going to matter if the senate turns red.

Based on what? I don't really see any evidence that republicans voted for biden.

But, biden was painted as open to defunding the police, the green new deal and other such things regardless of coming out against them. Biden could have campaigned on free guns, eliminating taxes altogether and selling the government to wall street and he would still have been attacked as a tree hugging marxist. And it wasn't just trump attacking him like that, it was the entire right wing machine including media and at a minimum the vast majority of republican politicians. Democrats keep making the mistake of thinking there is something they can do in the current political climate to stop the opposing party from calling them communists. And there just isn't.

So, biden isn't a corporate hack because of the environment he is in? That's nonsense. And sure, this plays out to how cartoonishly corrupt politics in the US are when it comes to money in politics.... But Biden has been one of the more influential US politicians from the past few decades. He isn't one of the better democrats in this regard. Going further, kamala wasn't elected as VP because she will fight corporate power in the government.

Welp, if the senate stays red then biden can at least pretend he has an agenda which republicans won't let pass...

 

[M3J]

All evidence points to Biden being a corporate hack and centrist.

Anyway, how many cities defunded the police few months ago but are now increasing their funding? I've heard of different cities like Minneapolis (?) and LA doing that....

 

[hokageji]

If not for defund the police, Trump wouldn't have been so close either... that was a bullshit narrative... even if the idea wasn't to cut funding, people only read hashtag and that's the message that comes out.

If police would be defunded, 2nd amendment would be much more important and that's scarier.

 

[M3J]

It wasn't defunding the police, but Trump accusing Biden of wanting to abolish it, I believe. Police being defunded wouldn't really make the 2nd Amendment that much more important, it'd just mean the paychecks wouldn't be as big or them getting so many unnecessary equipments. Trump would have come close either way.

 

[kkck]

It wasn't defunding the police, but Trump accusing Biden of wanting to abolish it, I believe. Police being defunded wouldn't really make the 2nd Amendment that much more important, it'd just mean the paychecks wouldn't be as big or them getting so many unnecessary equipments. Trump would have come close either way.

paychecks? Defunding the police is definitely not about that. Pretty sure the police in the US isn't making cocaine amounts of money.

 

[hokageji]

It wasn't defunding the police, but Trump accusing Biden of wanting to abolish it, I believe. Police being defunded wouldn't really make the 2nd Amendment that much more important, it'd just mean the paychecks wouldn't be as big or them getting so many unnecessary equipments. Trump would have come close either way.

If it were that simple. Americans are way too polarized so any message that is anti-right is considered a democratic message and to an extent, vice-versa as well. Trump used that to attack Biden.
If you are in a neighbourhood where police are defunded, how do you expect to defend yourself from people's attacks? Lesser police means higher possibility of crime, so people are likely to buy guns. Heck, if i was in Texas or Georgia, i would've bought it too. But where i live, nobody owns one.

Biden didn't do well, that is a fact. If you check the 3rd party votes that didnt go towards Hillary, those have gone to Biden showing a bigger gap. This election was lost by Trump, not won by Biden. And defunding the police would have played a part...

 

[kkck]

Well, to be fair biden has won the election by about 6 million votes so far. Beating trump by over 3% of the votes in such a polarized environment is respectable at least. Biden's mandate isn't.... overwhelming so to speak but its more solid than what he has been given credit for. If trump completed 4 years while having lost the popular vote by 3 million votes then biden can do fine with having won by 6 million votes. The only reason this was even a contest is because the electoral college, anti democratic institution which USA folk have been brainwashed into using and keeping, is a thing in the 21th century... It's absurd to have a electoral college for presidential elections and the US already has a senate which gives individual states more than adequate representation.

 

[M3J]

paychecks? Defunding the police is definitely not about that. Pretty sure the police in the US isn't making cocaine amounts of money.

Did you read the whole thing or just focused on the paycheck part?
And the police are making quite a bit of money, especially the NYPD. I think part of it is due to overtime.

If it were that simple. Americans are way too polarized so any message that is anti-right is considered a democratic message and to an extent, vice-versa as well. Trump used that to attack Biden.
If you are in a neighbourhood where police are defunded, how do you expect to defend yourself from people's attacks? Lesser police means higher possibility of crime, so people are likely to buy guns. Heck, if i was in Texas or Georgia, i would've bought it too. But where i live, nobody owns one.

Biden didn't do well, that is a fact. If you check the 3rd party votes that didnt go towards Hillary, those have gone to Biden showing a bigger gap. This election was lost by Trump, not won by Biden. And defunding the police would have played a part...

Community policing and all. Lot of people say that cops don't do much and often make the whole thing worse. If you call the cops to rein in a person with mental health issues safely, the chances are they'll get violent or even kill the person. Victims of sexual assault have also said the cops don't do anything to protect them or barely do anything to apprehend the assaulters, or even protect victims of domestic violence.

 

[hokageji]

Community policing and all. Lot of people say that cops don't do much and often make the whole thing worse. If you call the cops to rein in a person with mental health issues safely, the chances are they'll get violent or even kill the person. Victims of sexual assault have also said the cops don't do anything to protect them or barely do anything to apprehend the assaulters, or even protect victims of domestic violence.

I dont disagree with you completely, the point i am trying to make is, the message "defundthepolice" was a crappy statement.

Community policing wont help in case of serious offenses. The fact is that cops are in general nice and they do have a few bad apples, and the primary problem is the brotherhood which wont rat each other and point out the bad cops. Thats the bigger problem. Cops are underpaid and overworked... which other profession can you say that about, where government is involved?

If you defund the police, it will mean lesser body cams, or even lesser cops. Some counties said that defunding would result in colored cops being laid off further, and that just makes it worse. YOu cant have zero policing, you understand that right?

 

[kkck]

If you defund the police, it will mean lesser body cams, or even lesser cops. Some counties said that defunding would result in colored cops being laid off further, and that just makes it worse. YOu cant have zero policing, you understand that right?

As far as I understand this I would think this bits are BS. No one has actually proposed specific policy in regards to "defunding" the police. So its absurd to suggest it'd result in them specifically losing their body cams. Or lesser cops. This is just taking the "defunding the police" thing without any context. Which of course plays into this being a shitty slogan to run on.

 

[hokageji]

No one has actually proposed specific policy in regards to "defunding" the police. So its absurd to suggest it'd result in them specifically losing their body cams. Or lesser cops. This is just taking the "defunding the police" thing without any context. Which of course plays into this being a shitty slogan to run on.

I am with you that its a shitty slogan and have said that from the start. And yea, while these proposals were not made by policy makers or people in the government, they were the talks back then.
Defunding the police was an actual thing, something a lot of mayors spoke about. All these things kinda worked against Biden cos even if he doesn't support it, its whats associated with the left and people dont like that. Trump defended the cops on all occasions and even would say blue lives matter, when Biden would say things like most cops are good, but.... Biden managed to get the support of the left, but not as many as the right.

 

[M3J]

I dont disagree with you completely, the point i am trying to make is, the message "defundthepolice" was a crappy statement.

Community policing wont help in case of serious offenses. The fact is that cops are in general nice and they do have a few bad apples, and the primary problem is the brotherhood which wont rat each other and point out the bad cops. Thats the bigger problem. Cops are underpaid and overworked... which other profession can you say that about, where government is involved?

If you defund the police, it will mean lesser body cams, or even lesser cops. Some counties said that defunding would result in colored cops being laid off further, and that just makes it worse. YOu cant have zero policing, you understand that right?

It really wasn't, there were good arguments for it. The problem I think was that the leaders didn't really care to defund the police, they were just pretending to for PR.

Where is that a fact? Claiming few bad apples is a pretty shitty argument when there's constant report of them being bad AND the good ones staying quiet or doing nothing about the bad cops.

Cops’ massive salaries are robbing taxpayers blind

Knocking over banks is for amateurs. Local cops in towns and counties around New York state are robbing taxpayers blind with astronomical yearly salaries — including one officer who pulled down $44…

nypost.com

Based on what? Did they do any research or is that just an assumption that defunding police means lesser stuff? And it'd be their fault if it resulted in cops being laid off, especially if some departments aren't using their money wisely.

SOme policing isn't really as effective. Not to mention, if we focused more on helping out the communities rather than giving the wealthy and corps money, then maybe we wouldn't have as much need for cops.

I am with you that its a shitty slogan and have said that from the start. And yea, while these proposals were not made by policy makers or people in the government, they were the talks back then.
Defunding the police was an actual thing, something a lot of mayors spoke about. All these things kinda worked against Biden cos even if he doesn't support it, its whats associated with the left and people dont like that. Trump defended the cops on all occasions and even would say blue lives matter, when Biden would say things like most cops are good, but.... Biden managed to get the support of the left, but not as many as the right.

Some mayors did it, but then they recently increased the funding.

Biden didn't really get the support of the left as he was still pro-cop. I think you're talking about centrists.

 

[hokageji]

I am not debating the specifics about defund the police, you are probably right about that. my only comment is that a lot of people who would've voted against trump were lost because of this. Anyways, if i find that discussion again, will share, tell then i will drop it.

 

[kkck]

It really wasn't, there were good arguments for it. The problem I think was that the leaders didn't really care to defund the police, they were just pretending to for PR.

The issue is not the substance of defund the police, the issue is the slogan itself. No one who hears "defund the police" will immediately know what this actually means. It doesn't convey any context regarding its intent. It takes actual research to make sense of it. Any reasonable person who hears that without context will just be baffled at the stupidity it is proposing. Imagine if the slogan was something not stupid like "Reform the police".... It'd be much easier to get the point across. But as usual the leftwing in the US can't take two steps without tripping...

 

[M3J]

I am not debating the specifics about defund the police, you are probably right about that. my only comment is that a lot of people who would've voted against trump were lost because of this. Anyways, if i find that discussion again, will share, tell then i will drop it.

Then that'd mean they weren't going to vote against Trump anyway if they didn't vote for Biden because of this without doing their research.

The issue is not the substance of defund the police, the issue is the slogan itself. No one who hears "defund the police" will immediately know what this actually means. It doesn't convey any context regarding its intent. It takes actual research to make sense of it. Any reasonable person who hears that without context will just be baffled at the stupidity it is proposing. Imagine if the slogan was something not stupid like "Reform the police".... It'd be much easier to get the point across. But as usual the leftwing in the US can't take two steps without tripping...

That's because they don't want to do any research. Biden and every Democrat and progressive politicians could explain it, and people will still refuse to listen. Any reasonable person who actually has knowledge will either agree or know the benefits of defunding the police, and the issues with cops throughout the country. They won't lost their shit. Reforming the police is also inaccurate for many as they think cops can't be and refuse to be reformed.

 

[kkck]

That's because they don't want to do any research. Biden and every Democrat and progressive politicians could explain it, and people will still refuse to listen. Any reasonable person who actually has knowledge will either agree or know the benefits of defunding the police, and the issues with cops throughout the country. They won't lost their shit. Reforming the police is also inaccurate for many as they think cops can't be and refuse to be reformed.

Democrats are torn between those who are against what defunding the police actually means and those who won't actually try to get their message across. Essentially, they are not on board. But that doesn't mean "Defunding the police" isn't a shit slogan. it's just an extra pile of shit on top of a turd of a slogan. Slogans are supposed to be clear and convey meaning instantly. It shouldn't require research for people to get that those behind this aren't actually trying to make the police disappear altogether (which would be stupid and indefensible). The message and slogans regarding this issue should invariably and strictly convey the message that the intention is to make the police better and make it work for everyone without needing people to do research.

 

[xi0]

Any reasonable person who actually has knowledge will either agree or know the benefits of defunding the police, and the issues with cops throughout the country.

A slogan lacking any nuance that turns off pearl-clutching white people is not going to get a "reasonable" response. There are those, like abolitionists, who truly believe in defunding the police and abolishing prisons, etc. Regardless of the reason, that's not going to be a popular thing. So of course moderates and people on the right are going to focus on this sort of thing and make it into something it isn't.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Nov 20, 2020 ---

I think the slogan itself is in response to the sense of futility seen when reform fails. There are an incredible amount of corrupt police departments in this country. They put protecting each other over serving and protecting. That is the kind of cancer that needs to be removed, but how do you do it? New policy with the same old faces? Not very likely. That's where defunding/replacing the police comes into the conversation.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 20, 2020 ---

uh... yikes