Bam, who was alone all his life has entered the tower to chase after his only friend, Rachel, but how will he survive without having any special strength or power?“What do you desire? Money and wealth? Honor and pride? Authority and power? Revenge? Or something that transcends them all? Whatever...
But.. that doesn't answer the question. Why tell anyone that NN was planning on retrieving her children specifically? It doesn't seem necessary for the rest of the things that were happening. Even under the assumption that at worst kirin or other branch leaders would get involved.
Like I said - take it up with the planning committee. Yas, and NN.
Her Acrinak should have given her power to stop anything short of a FH. The only ones that could escape it mentally were... WW and Yas, who are on her side in this. It stopped EVERYONE that day, save those two, and they only started up again when WW beast-yelled them awake, which he wouldn't be doing in this case.
So, again, for the third time, Acrinak alone should have been sufficient for what they intended to do, save Rei.
So, again, for the third time, Yas didn't expect Rei to get involved, nor for NN to die. He expected the opposite quite obviously.
So, again, for the third time, Yas didn't throw her under the bus. You can argue his reasoning was flawed, but his motives to keep her safe were intact. And we have no reason to think she wasn't on board with his exposing them.
@Jubei_Kibagami I don't think Yas is portrayed as a "hero" in this chapter. Sure, almost everything you said about him is true: it was his and NN's plan, he brought the remaining canines with him to the outer tower by pretending to use them to kill other canines and WW and so on. But, all that doesn't change the fact the he didn't give a damn about anyone else except WW. All of that was necessary for the plan to be successful.
He doesn't have to give a damn to be their attempted savior. He did everything he did for selfish reasons, I've fully admitted that for a while, as did Yas to WW in the dialogue.
But, it just so happens those selfish desires coincide with NN's desires to be a better parent than WW could ever be. And, in doing so, would be the salvation of the dogkin race (had Rei not stepped in of course). NN doesn't care if the cat just wants to help WW only, because their desires have mutual outcomes so she signs on.
America didn't need to know the Soviet Union had pure intent in being an ally against the Axis powers - they just needed an ally with the same motivations. I mean, it was pretty clear the Soviets weren't exactly 'pure' when they entered into an arrangement, but the greater good was stopping the Nazis.
I never said Yas wasn't working towards his own ends - that's been explicitly stated by him for many chapters now. He's not hidden what he's trying to do, or who his concern revolves around. He just HAS to be considerate of WW's people/wife/kids if he's going to get his goal to elope with him. So, even in spite of not caring for NN and the dogkin, he's STILL acting as their benefactor.
We can disagree on motives (we're actually fully in agreement), but the outcome is still heroic for the dog people, WW's kids, NN, and even WW himself though he's too stupid to realize it. They'd probably idolize Yas if he were successful, even if he's a cat, and even if they didn't know he was only doing it from selfish motivations. It would have benefited them regardless.
If he didn't propose taking canines to the outer tower and killing WW himself simultaneously prasing BHs and depreciating WW and his race, the family would send their army which Yas wouldn't be able to control. It is even doubtful they would agree to send Yas with it. He used NN as bait to preoccupy BHs, though she knew about her role in this so it's not like he deceived her. She and Akrinac would probably put a good fight against a few BHs and/or army, so that the family wouldn't be able to send a meaningful force to where WW and Yas were. But they didn't expect Traum to act directly.
Then there is this dialogue between WW and Yas in this very chapter where Yas straight up tells WW that he doesn't care about NN, his children or dogkin. Now, it can be argued that it's not how Yas truly feels and it's just one of those moments where when someone is pissed they try to make the other party show emotions by saying provocative stuff that isn't necessarily true. But i highly doubt that's the case as we later have Yas rather calmly explaining his decision about staying with the family and playing the role of a clown.
And yet his actions show he is considerate of their fate. Further, only Yas is left to get the dog-babies out - he certainly doesn't HAVE to do that. Especially after WW and NN have died so his plan is a flop. But, we know he's involved in getting them away from the LPB. So, there's a certain amount of care there. It's common that people's actions and words don't always align.
I think it's much more obvious he's pressed for time and attempting to spur WW into action. He's presenting it as a choice that WW has, but by telling him the ship has already sailed he's attempting to light the fire under his ass. Now, maybe he truly doesn't care one iota about NN and the other dogs - only WW - but that doesn't somehow negate everything he's done has been in an attempt to help them - if only to make WW happier about abandoning his 'master'.
You guys don't seem to get my point, >>>>I<<<< believe FH are more powerful, but basing it on Gustang's blind speech doesn't make sense from my perspective, why? Simple, they are insects because they could never kill them, insects because they are NPC in their view and not lives, in short, he is extremely elitist, but hypocritical, after all he built a family of insects and, apparently, waged war on zahard because of one of these insects (Enne).
The bread and butter of your rebuttal is that since the FHs have been shown to be unable to achieve this or that, then it is indeed possible that those who rank higher than them or similar to them on the rankings are stronger or similar to them in strength.This is an obvious non sequitur.
My submission has never been that FHs or Zahard or the irregulars could do whatever they please, if that were indeed the case, many aspects of the story would be pointless. They're still shackled and limited. I have merely done my best to acquaint those who make the proposition that certain non irregulars can equal or best the FHs, with the facts of the story.
I will state it again as simply as possible. Every single character in the story who has talked about the FHs and Zahard has one common view, and that is that in terms of ability, they are in a totally different league to non irregulars. Every. Single. Character. Regardless of their approval or disapproval of the FHs. If it were common knowledge, that Luslec or Molic One or Adori or Enne or Masceth or whoever else could rival them, then it'd be stated already. And other than Luslec who lives in hiding from the FHs and Zahard, every other character suggested as a rival to these people are subservient to Zahard.
Ancients? Khel Hellam is certainly not weak like NN, he met the FHs, he should have met Luslec, and he knows the difference.
Who else? Eduan's literally got an open invitation for anyone to come at them, which of these potentials people hap on about have taken the opportunity to show him a thing or two in all the eons the offer has been in place for?
I'm not presenting a theory nor making an assumption. I'm stating the exact views and scenarios current in the story. If your proposition is indeed valid and there is indeed evidence to suggest those who are equal or greater to the FHs in ranking are similarly equal or greater in battle power, and that there are non irregular characters other than administrators who have the capacity to combat or defeat them, why not present a view from a character within the story itself to corroborate your point?
The writer has up until this point, created an identity for these irregulars and FHs, why is it so difficult to accept?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
WW being the idiot and Yas an unsung hero is certainly interesting.
Loyalty and magnanimity is idiocy?
Scheming to destroy a companion's life because you disagree with him is heroic?
Your first line is a misinterpretation of my posts on the matter.
Your next paragraph is a straw man as I've not stated that you have argued otherwise.
You then gloss over points I've made to bring up ranking (something I hadn't brought up in the scope of this conversation this time). A flawed system for either perspective.
You miss what the writer, SIU, is doing setting up breadcrumbs and foreshadowing of their downfall. NO ONE is arguing at present they can be bested - it would take key events happening, and key players to come together. For instance, GongBang arming FUG/Gustang using the bracelet/Thorn being completed/Spells being broken/100F wish taking place/etc etc.
EVERY big bad is always invulnerable, indomitable, behind a force-field, under a spell that gives them a huge PU - whatever function is immaterial. They are always impossible to kill - until they aren't. SIU has given nods in several directions, possibly, unless he hasn't and they are misdirection. That doesn't mean they are 'wrong' 'to discuss, because we don't know what the Achilles' Heel will be - yet. But the Tower is certainly mysterious and constantly surprising with more facets and powers, and we haven't even scratched the surface. That you can't fathom alternatives to Baam punching a hole in each FH one-by-one isn't my problem.
There's no point crapping up another thread on this - I'll make a separate thread as that's a long time coming. You claim to not see any value in tit-for-tat, and yet you keep doing it (until proven wrong in the case of this chapter events).
Just know you have grossly misinterpreted my, and I'd say others, opinions on what their weak points could theoretically be. And the timeline of which each threat operates under - which is to say, in the future. The setup is far from complete in any case.
Yasratcha wasn't trying to destroy Wang's life. He was trying to free Wang from Traumerei's grasp. To help Wang live a life with dignity. Not a life where Wang lived as a dog to a master that considered him to hold less value than dust.
Yasratcha wanted Wang to be free.
Wang wasn't admirable. He was a disgrace to his station and to his race. He shirked his responsibility and had no dignity as a person.
I think Bam is more of like the child of prophecy that was created by a God outside the tower destined to kill Zahard to open upper floors. If you guys remember Garam told Bam "You are the child of prophecy". Phantaminum, as an Axis, was that God's messenger to relay the message about a Child that is prophesied to kill Zahard. That was why Phantaminum did not kill Zahard because he was just a messenger from the God outside the tower. The reason why Zahard have been wanting to kill Bam.
Yasratcha wasn't trying to destroy Wang's life. He was trying to free Wang from Traumerei's grasp. To help Wang live a life with dignity. Not a life where Wang lived as a dog to a master that considered him to hold less value than dust.
Yasratcha wanted Wang to be free.
Wang wasn't admirable. He was a disgrace to his station and to his race. He shirked his responsibility and had no dignity as a person.
Per Garam, the messenger of the Outside God is Enryu.
There are only 7 personal beasts that Traumerei has.
Yas doesn't need statues erected as the Second Coming or anything, but in comparison to WW's personal failures Yas is downright heroic. At least he would be from the perspective of the freed dogkin if the plan went as expected.
Like I said - take it up with the planning committee. Yas, and NN.
Her Acrinak should have given her power to stop anything short of a FH. The only ones that could escape it mentally were... WW and Yas, who are on her side in this. It stopped EVERYONE that day, save those two, and they only started up again when WW beast-yelled them awake, which he wouldn't be doing in this case.
So, again, for the third time, Acrinak alone should have been sufficient for what they intended to do, save Rei.
So, again, for the third time, Yas didn't expect Rei to get involved, nor for NN to die. He expected the opposite quite obviously.
So, again, for the third time, Yas didn't throw her under the bus. You can argue his reasoning was flawed, but his motives to keep her safe were intact. And we have no reason to think she wasn't on board with his exposing them.
Hm, not sure of what to do with that. I am pointing out that to me it doesn't make sense that yaratcha would mention nen nen going for her children since it apparently does not contribute anything to the overall presumed plan. You don't disagree or bother to explain how yaratcha telling kirin that nen is going to attack the base where the baylord siblings are at helps the plan (let alone nen nen or yaratcha's alledged plan).
And I agree, acrinak is probably enough to handle most branch leaders in general, let alone mere rankers. But yaratcha making things more difficult for no discernible reason or advantage seems more like betrayal than anything. This would also play into yaratcha mentioning he wanted to break up WW and NN.
Hm, not sure of what to do with that. I am pointing out that to me it doesn't make sense that yaratcha would mention nen nen going for her children since it apparently does not contribute anything to the overall presumed plan. You don't disagree or bother to explain how yaratcha telling kirin that nen is going to attack the base where the baylord siblings are at helps the plan (let alone nen nen or yaratcha's alledged plan).
And I agree, acrinak is probably enough to handle most branch leaders in general, let alone mere rankers. But yaratcha making things more difficult for no discernible reason or advantage seems more like betrayal than anything. This would also play into yaratcha mentioning he wanted to break up WW and NN.
AKA, 'I'm wrong and have nothing substantive to say'
I mean, you're objectively wrong about several key points. That's not a discussion of 'theory' or 'guesses' or even opinion.
Why even post like this unless to just say 'I have nothing to say' - a cop-out.
[/QUOTE]
Let me water it down for you since succinct points aren't your thing.
Replying to your posts is so tiresome because you seem to read the story in order to confirm your own subjective expectations, not to understand or learn the plot.
Other than the statement of Traum being present at the time of Yas disclosure of the plot to Kirin, which I think he is from looking at the scene, nothing else I've said here isn't undisputed fact. I think upon reflection that he may have been absent since its unclear from the drawing but that doesn't change the central point of Yas's betrayal. You can point to any statement I've made here which isn't established fact.
I'm not interested in speculation or theories. If I see any I think is particularly deductive or insightful, I tap the like button, and whatever piques my curiosity I state as curious or ask questions. Everything else I write about is a fact and the implication of that fact.
Writing a long thread filled with your analysis and critique of a character based on your assumptions of the character's interest, motivation, or morals is of no value whatsoever to my views or the discussion.
Let me water it down for you since succinct points aren't your thing.
Replying to your posts is so tiresome because you seem to read the story in order to confirm your own subjective expectations not to understand or learn the plot.
Other than the statement of Traum being present at the time of Yas disclosure of the plot to Kirin, which I think he his from looking at the scene, nothing else I've said here isn't undisputed fact. I think upon reflection that he may have been absent since its unclear from the drawing but that doesn't change the central point of Yas's betrayal. You can point to any statement I've made here which isn't established fact.
I'm not interested in speculation or theories. If I see any I think is particularly deductive or insightful, I tap the like button, and whatever piques my curiosity I state as curious or ask questions. Everything else I write about is a fact and the implication of that fact.
Writing a long thread filled with your analysis and critique of a character based on your assumptions of the character's interest, motivation, or morals is of no value whatsoever to my views or the discussion.
You were also wrong about Yas wanting to kill WW, when he's telegraphing the plan a year out, and pleading with him to run to save his ass.
And, no, the dialog makes it beyond clear that Rei is in fact not present. I'm not sure of a single other reader that would cosign to that nonfact.
It's always fun to see a multi-paragraph diatribe about how there's no point responding though. Followed with another reference to disregard every point I've made.
But you can't point to a single thing I'm objectively wrong about. Not one. You just miscategorize them (I'm noticing a theme) as subjective.
Unless you actually have anything to discuss, I don't see how you aren't further wasting both of our time... something you CLAIM to be against.
I see these comments casting Yas in a good light, talking about sacrifices and whatnot, so please can anyone outline what it cost Yas to "save" WW and how?
"Hey, guiz, I'm a sellout Jew and I had the opportunity to save my wife AND keep my kids from a life of slavery (oh, and all the other Jewish people too for crying out loud), but instead abandoned my parental and spousal duty and lied to her face about sticking up for them - haha, dumb bitch! 'Why?' you ask? Because, I'm, like suuuuuper-dedicated to Hitler. Hitler makes me feel useful and powerful and gives me purpose. So, fuck my wife and kids, amirite? Now, everyone gather around tell me how loyal I am (to Hitler... not my wife or kids or people lol). And how ADMIRABLE I am as well! Dont worry, my best friend who I dont deserve will put his own ass on the line to help all those i claim to care about out. And when I'm dead and disposed of as I've seen Hitler do to all my other people without fail, and have been warned at length about, my friend will step up yet again to get them out of the reach of the despotic madman, or to be a living experiment on as labrats of sorts. Tootles!"
Because she wanted him to. It was damage control. Yas and NN both fully expected her to succeed. Meaning she though she could solo her way in and out with the kids.
She powers up with Acrinak before Rei even arrives. She knows she's going to have to fight her way in and out.
Her showing at the volcano proves she could have solo'd in and out - Rei aside. So all they had to do was concoct a story to keep Rei away. That actually means proactively leaking plans. But it was beyond clear the way Yas did that he did so to keep it low-key. Don't bother the boss, I got this.
His reaction proves he didn't expect Rei to move personally.
Is that a stupid assumption? Maybe (he thought he had done just enough for only the lieutenants to react, not the boss). But he didn't think it would go down like that yet.
Yes, Yas only helped the dogkin and NN/the kids out of service to his true goal - WW. I didn't say Yas was entirely selfless. But he still was considerate of his friend's feelings about his people/girl/kids. He also probably knew there would be no way for WW to do a thing without having them too. But as 'selfish' as Yas is being here, it is still a benefit for the dogkin (if it had worked)/kids/NN... and NN was fully on board. Yas even questioned NN and she doubled-down on whether to proceed and trust WW. Their interests aligned.
Which makes his sacrifice even more meaningless. He already knew he was going to die. It's not like he had the option to live, but instead sacrificed himself for the dogkin.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Yas makes a point that the LPB think he's there to fight WW. So, it comes as no surprise for Yas to be there for Rei.
What part of the dialogue makes you think Rei was mad at them both? He seems to only talk about the dog biting his master, which is what Yas had reported.
I could be wrong of course, but unless I'm missing something here, this is all on WW, not Yas.
Which is why WW makes the offer for Yas to attack - to keep up appearances.
Yasratcha wasn't trying to destroy Wang's life. He was trying to free Wang from Traumerei's grasp. To help Wang live a life with dignity. Not a life where Wang lived as a dog to a master that considered him to hold less value than dust.
Yasratcha wanted Wang to be free.
Wang wasn't admirable. He was a disgrace to his station and to his race. He shirked his responsibility and had no dignity as a person.
Well I disagree. Here are the facts that prove otherwise:
First, Yas himself is also a prisoner/property/pet of Traum. He might flee, but he's essentially a property of Traum. I find it difficult to see a scenario where an eloped WW and Yas don't live in hiding the rest of their lives. Is that indeed more virtuous for WW than living a life of his own choosing? And who decides that and by what criteria?
Second, WW willingly and gladly chose his life and his station. Freely. He's the one beastkin who cannot be subjugated against his will yet he remained a servant. Freely. Of his own volition. If that's his truth, who has the right to call it false? Your judgement or anyone's judgement is meaningless before his will. It's his own free choice. It's like calling members of the Opus Dei wicked for their mortification practices. Whose business is it if it's self inflicted and under no compulsion? Who gives anyone right over another's private affair? If he's hurting anyone, it's only himself, so why should anyone interfere in his private affairs? He finds dignity in serving a master in perpetuity, and did so long before he ever knew he had a master. Why then would anyone deny him his dignity because they don't value it? That is the evil, not WW's choice. Interfering with his free will is the evil.
Third, what duty and responsibility does WW owe anyone other than himself and hence his willingly accepted master? To whose creed or flag is he beholden? The beastkin? They happily murdered each other for survival while at the workshop. Who? Yas? An individual who never wanted his companionship in the beginning, and both went their separate ways when it became clear they disagreed on a fundamental issue. His kids and NN? They were given him by his master. What then makes his actions disgraceful? Because you don't share another's values don't mean those values are disgraceful.
@Jubei_Kibagami I don't think Yas is portrayed as a "hero" in this chapter. Sure, almost everything you said about him is true: it was his and NN's plan, he brought the remaining canines with him to the outer tower by pretending to use them to kill other canines and WW and so on. But, all that doesn't change the fact the he didn't give a damn about anyone else except WW. All of that was necessary for the plan to be successful.
If he didn't propose taking canines to the outer tower and killing WW himself simultaneously prasing BHs and depreciating WW and his race, the family would send their army which Yas wouldn't be able to control. It is even doubtful they would agree to send Yas with it. He used NN as bait to preoccupy BHs, though she knew about her role in this so it's not like he deceived her. She and Akrinac would probably put a good fight against a few BHs and/or army, so that the family wouldn't be able to send a meaningful force to where WW and Yas were. But they didn't expect Traum to act directly.
Then there is this dialogue between WW and Yas in this very chapter where Yas straight up tells WW that he doesn't care about NN, his children or dogkin. Now, it can be argued that it's not how Yas truly feels and it's just one of those moments where when someone is pissed they try to make the other party show emotions by saying provocative stuff that isn't necessarily true. But i highly doubt that's the case as we later have Yas rather calmly explaining his decision about staying with the family and playing the role of a clown.
WW was never un free , he lived his life the way he wanted .
Yas was selfish , or ignorant , WW was clearly feeling satisfaction by serving Rei but because of Yas cat like nature he could never get rid of his obsession for WW and he himself was a slave of his instinct .
Fact is that the only reasons he stayed with Rei was because of his obsession for WW .
Well now the question is did Yas found a new obsession , and why does he serve jahad ?
Those character are really interesting honestly .
WW was always loyal to his master and most off his desicion were consequence of it . So even if i think he is a asshole , he isn't incoherent and anyone who studied his character would see that this chapter was the natural conclusion , same for Yas .
Outside of WW and NN stupid name , i actually like both Yas and WW .
Hitler introduced me to my wife and kids therefor I should be thankful and more subservient to him. On the heels of 'Hitler makes me feel good'
Well, there's a first for every argument. Good luck with that one.
Oh, and the dogs PROVED they could live off the radar, away from the LPB. What you chose to believe as not possible is irrelevant in light of proof of concept.
I tell you @Jubei_Kibagami shinsu just turned black around his brain because maschenny did not appear in the chapter again.. my picture work perfectly now im just have to apologies to you guys.
One of which is that WW should be thankful to the despotic tyrant for 'giving' him a wife and child, rather than being loyal to his family who rely on him and trust in him (in vain).
alpha-scans.org
@Demonspeed @Lady pompom please pin
