Hangout Mokushiroku no Yonkishi Hangout Thread

[Zerodx]

Gawain deserved that. Thumbs up. Actually it makes sense for her to start crying right after knowing her place (it irked me when she said "I'm the one who decides that" you ain't Escanor dear). Gawain is incredibly immature. A slightly more mature character would not throw a tantrum right off the bat and would take time to start crying and admit their wrongdoing later on when they realize they were wrong, usually characters written that way have a tendency to get very, very gloomy, isolated, and lonely until they open up about their struggle(s) to their new 'friends', after which they become a brighter version of themselves. But Gawain isn't like that, of course, she may maintain her hostility for a while instead of getting gloomy. So hats off to Nakaba for writing it the correct way on her character so far.

People should have faith in Nakaba writing a female character. Let's be honest majority of the times mangakas 'can't write a female character' the way you want it is because women 'correctly written' haven't surrounded them in their real lives. Due to cultural and social differences, women tend to have a more feminine nature in countries like Japan (and it's been proven time and time again that women have a major tendency to be far more kinder and empathetic than men). These men who draw manga often take inspiration from women they know in reality. These women may have personalities like Elizabeth majority of the time. That is pretty obvious. What I'm saying is these men are not very used to seeing women raging about in extreme physical buffs like men are. Men also tend to prefer personalities like Elizabeth's (see, Lucy is incredibly popular in Japan as opposed to Erza because of her more feminine nature, it's also a way for mangakas to sell their mangas by catering to the general public's interest, and men and women have always been softer to women and children(/childlike) personalities than grown men).

Anyway, Nakaba writing Gawain is like writing a character first without gender, and then putting on female appearance. In this instance it is incredibly helpful to write stronger female characters, since you don't create the gender first, rather its the backstory, the character and personality itself. What I'm saying is that Nakaba created the gender out of the character's personality, not the character's personality out of the gender, which was heavily the case with Elizabeth, and evidently so.

Edit: (okay and as a woman myself I do tend to have a softer analysis on female characters, I may be okay with damsel in distress trope only when it makes sense like in Elizabeth's case where she got kidnapped because of her powers and NOT because she was Meliodas's love interest, so in this case Elizabeth got kidnapped and had to be saved not because she was a man's woman, but because she was an ancient goddess whose blood was useful and that's successful damsel in distress trope used right there by Nakaba and I will always appreciate him for that)

--- Double Post Merged, May 25, 2022, Original Post Date: May 25, 2022 ---

To clarify more, Gawain currently cried because "I lost!" and not because "I Did Something Bad". Later on, when she'll mature, she'll reach a point where she will sincerely cry not because "I lost" but because "my friends are hurt".

--- Double Post Merged, May 25, 2022 ---

Pellegarde is impressive. I will look forward to him more in the future now.

Anyway, at this point only Lancelot knows what to do at the right moment. I'm just surprised he didn't rush out after Gawain, he should know what she's like and her intentions if he can read minds.

Poor Percival got a kick in the stomach. A normal human should be vomiting all they had taken in after getting a kick like that.

Lancelot sure has a huge amount of faith in Tristan, I personally wanted Tristan to stomp Gawain, since the only way to make her listen is to defeat her, but he inherith his personality from his Mother a pacifist

--- Double Post Merged, May 25, 2022 ---

So, what happens now? Gawain is obviously not fighting anymore, Pelgard is injured and we know Percival isn't getting kidnapped. Does Tristan end up capturing Pel or will he manage to escape with a Teleport Incantation Orb or something?

Pele probably still want to capture Percival, next week probably show us the reason why he join Arthur side.

 

[everythingnice]

Same here. At least, that's where I hope his character leads. One of my issues with Elizabeth in the previous series was how her pacifism was handled and how naive she was in certain instances. Tristan seems to have inherited that quality from her, but it's not portrayed as a virtue here as with her, but rather as a flaw as Tristan just stood by and let Gawain attack Percy. It's not that he has to let go of his morals, but he has to realize that he can't stand idly by in some cases.

To quote Android 16 from DBZ Abridged:

"But there you stand, the good man doing nothing. And while evil triumphs and your rigid pacifism crumbles into blood-stained dust, the only victory afforded to you is that you stuck true to your guns."

There is a little bit of difference. Elizabeth will fight off her enemies if they threaten to take/kill Meliodas or any of her other friends (Nakaba clarified she got her bloody title because she defended her friends in the past), if the enemy doesn't threaten to do anything like that she'll heal and comfort them like she did in the battle with some other country's men (during Gloxinia and Drole's battle grounds (gosh am I saying this right?)).

Tristan will fight because the enemy is an enemy. He hasn't done what Elizabeth did, even after listening to Lancelot. He still sees Pellegarde as an enemy. And Pellegarde hasn't done anything to make Tristan spiteful other than being a Knight of Chaos (if you don't count kidnapping Percival)

I'm not entirely sure how Elizabeth would react against Gawain, but if I am any bit correct then she actually might want to be the one to put her in her place by Ark-slapping her (remember that moment? Anyone?).

 

[Demonspeed]

Lancelot sure has a huge amount of faith in Tristan, I personally wanted Tristan to stomp Gawain, since the only way to make her listen is to defeat her, but he inherith his personality from his Mother a pacifist

--- Double Post Merged, May 25, 2022 ---

Pele probably still want to capture Percival, next week probably show us the reason why he join Arthur side.

We know Percival won't get kidnapped though. Because of the extra pages in Volume 7 which are about future events. Percival is discussing with Donny, Anne, Nasiens(in new clothes) and Lancelot at Liones and later Lancelot is seen discussing with Tristan after his patrol.

 

[Samael Morningstar]

Given Tristan's personality which is really so good reminds me quite that of changed Mael, but I'm afraid he doesn't turn a pussy like Mael

 

[Demonspeed]

I don't understand the worries about Tristan. He said he only refuses to fight allies. He fought Berserk Percival when he thought he was an opponent.

 

[Zerodx]

I don't understand the worries about Tristan. He said he only refuses to fight allies. He fought Berserk Percival when he thought he was an opponent.

That because his idiot comrade accuse him as knight of chaos, if he knew that Percival is an allies he probably try to stop him using other method

--- Double Post Merged, May 25, 2022, Original Post Date: May 25, 2022 ---

We know Percival won't get kidnapped though. Because of the extra pages in Volume 7 which are about future events. Percival is discussing with Donny, Anne, Nasiens(in new clothes) and Lancelot at Liones and later Lancelot is seen discussing with Tristan after his patrol.

I know but he probably still want to fight but failed at the end

 

[Demonspeed]

That because his idiot comrade accuse him as knight of chaos, if he knew that Percival is an allies he probably try to stop him using other method

--- Double Post Merged, May 25, 2022, Original Post Date: May 25, 2022 ---

I know but he probably still want to fight but failed at the end

But it's not like he is going to fight his allies all the time. In the end the opponents are Arthur and his knights. He is in this situation because only he and Gawain wanted to fight Pelgard.

 

[Vortigern]

I assumed it meant that Uther was Kay's father and that bother were living together? Bartra also mentions that he is going to Uther in the story. So you are saying that Kid Arthur doesn't know that Uther was his father? Or that he knew but was living with Kay and his dad anyway?

The PL thing is simple. People have different potential, the Sins and the KoA are people with tremendous potential. Matrona, as strong as she was, normal Humans and so on have a certain limit. Look at Peliot, he was trained by Gowther and it doesn't look like he is stronger than Percival.

Arthur not being aware of his true identity is a frequent theme in the Arthurian stories, and that seems to be what Nakaba is going with here, considering that Arthur was surprised when Bartra told him that he would become a king rather than a holy knight. If he were a prince, even an adopted one, then the possibility of him becoming a king wouldn't be that out there. Elizabeth is the queen of Lyonesse in the legends and Nakaba still made her into an adopted princess, so we know that he sees nothing wrong with this. The fact that Arthur made a distinction between becoming a king and a holy knight is also important by itself, because Arthur specifically said he wanted to become a holy knight like his foster-father. If his foster-father was both a king and a holy knight, why would he think that becoming a king means he couldn't also become a holy knight? Lastly, a kind kid like Arthur likely would have offered to accompany his savior to his father's court upon hearing about Bartra's purpose for visiting Camelot. All in all, the most sensible explanation for the events of that special chapter is that Arthur was being raised by Kay's father unaware of his true identity.

I think you're oversimplifying the power level disparity. The Sins were always portrayed as people with tremendous potential, which is exactly why it's so weird that Howzer of all people was able to surpass most of them so easily. How is a normal human in his 30s so much stronger than the massively older fairy king and the most promising giant that Matrona had ever trained? In terms of power levels, most human holy knights used to be below 1000, competent ones like Gil and Howzer were at around 2000 and the strongest ones in all of Britannia were barely 3000. How in the world did Howzer break a new record by a huge margin by going past 7600? That's a jump of over 5000 points from his previous level and more than tripled his strength. For comparison, King had to awaken his spear to momentarily triple his power from 4000 to ~12000, and he's the strongest fairy around while Howzer is merely a decently talented normal human. Whatever happened to Howzer is something completely unprecedented, which is why it seems like there should be more to it than him just powering up by fighting some fodder demons.

In theory, yes. But have you considered the following...

Nakaba doesn't care.

Seriously though, Matrona is such a left-field choice for a comparison, I really don't think he put much thought into the answer and just put out someone within his range. Plus, he easily could've given an exact number or something, but he just says stronger than Matrona with no additional context.

I guess the most logical in-story answer would be that participating in the Holy War upped their power levels substantially for some reason, but again, as you mentioned, it doesn't quite explain examples like Merlin and King.

Yeah, there's a good chance that Nakaba is just throwing some random numbers around. It wouldn't be the first time he pulls power levels out of his ass, which is part of why I dislike the whole concept so much. A power system where numerical stats play a major role requires a lot of forethought and self-control is not something to be added into the story willy-nilly.

It's not impossible that this is all just the result of training and combat experience, but I find that hard to believe given the scale of the buff, as I outlined above. I think some kind of a more fundamental shift makes more sense. Even something like the massive amount of magical energy that the DK and the SD possessed being released into the environment after their deaths could be used to explain these sudden powerups. It's already been established that humans(and maybe other clans as well?) slowly absorb magic power from the environment, which is why the Ten Commandments decided to restore their magic power by eating human souls. The Age of Chaos is another potential cause, since the two gods originally sealed Chaos away because they thought it would start favoring the humans over their two clans. Perhaps the favor of Chaos is shifting the pecking order of the clans.

The explanation aside, I think what's really going on is that Nakaba realized it would be difficult to write a story about Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table if only the strongest humans around could even reach the level of a gray demon. In NnT the only humans in the team were Escanor with his Grace, Ban with his immortality and potentially Merlin with all her ridiculous hax. Anne, Donny and Nasiens would be doomed to irrelevancy in that kind of a setting, so something had to be done to address this issue. The massive power disparity between the clans has always rubbed me the wrong way, so I'm all for a development like this, provided that the explanation is at least somewhat believable.

 

[Demonspeed]

Arthur not being aware of his true identity is a frequent theme in the Arthurian stories, and that seems to be what Nakaba is going with here, considering that Arthur was surprised when Bartra told him that he would become a king rather than a holy knight. If he were a prince, even an adopted one, then the possibility of him becoming a king wouldn't be that out there. Elizabeth is the queen of Lyonesse in the legends and Nakaba still made her into an adopted princess, so we know that he sees nothing wrong with this. The fact that Arthur made a distinction between becoming a king and a holy knight is also important by itself, because Arthur specifically said he wanted to become a holy knight like his foster-father. If his foster-father was both a king and a holy knight, why would he think that becoming a king means he couldn't also become a holy knight? Lastly, a kind kid like Arthur likely would have offered to accompany his savior to his father's court upon hearing about Bartra's purpose for visiting Camelot. All in all, the most sensible explanation for the events of that special chapter is that Arthur was being raised by Kay's father unaware of his true identity.

That makes sense. Tristan himself thought he would have to become king and not a HK at the end of NNT since he is Mel's son.But Arthur knows his surname the first time he appears in NNT as a teenager so I guess he learned it later after pulling Excalibur or something.

 

[HereNThere]

There is a little bit of difference. Elizabeth will fight off her enemies if they threaten to take/kill Meliodas or any of her other friends (Nakaba clarified she got her bloody title because she defended her friends in the past), if the enemy doesn't threaten to do anything like that she'll heal and comfort them like she did in the battle with some other country's men (during Gloxinia and Drole's battle grounds (gosh am I saying this right?)).

I should have specified that I moreso meant early Elizabeth. I eased up on my annoyance with late game Elizabeth as she was eventually finally ready to throw down...even though she really didn't. At least, I appreciate that she was mostly ready to fight if she needed to.

Yeah, there's a good chance that Nakaba is just throwing some random numbers around. It wouldn't be the first time he pulls power levels out of his ass, which is part of why I dislike the whole concept so much. A power system where numerical stats play a major role requires a lot of forethought and self-control is not something to be added into the story willy-nilly.

It's not impossible that this is all just the result of training and combat experience, but I find that hard to believe given the scale of the buff, as I outlined above. I think some kind of a more fundamental shift makes more sense. Even something like the massive amount of magical energy that the DK and the SD possessed being released into the environment after their deaths could be used to explain these sudden powerups. It's already been established that humans(and maybe other clans as well?) slowly absorb magic power from the environment, which is why the Ten Commandments decided to restore their magic power by eating human souls. The Age of Chaos is another potential cause, since the two gods originally sealed Chaos away because they thought it would start favoring the humans over their two clans. Perhaps the favor of Chaos is shifting the pecking order of the clans.

The explanation aside, I think what's really going on is that Nakaba realized it would be difficult to write a story about Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table if only the strongest humans around could even reach the level of a gray demon. In NnT the only humans in the team were Escanor with his Grace, Ban with his immortality and potentially Merlin with all her ridiculous hax. Anne, Donny and Nasiens would be doomed to irrelevancy in that kind of a setting, so something had to be done to address this issue. The massive power disparity between the clans has always rubbed me the wrong way, so I'm all for a development like this, provided that the explanation is at least somewhat believable.

No disagreements here about the power level. It really doesn't add anything but headaches to his story.

Those would be viable theories and would actually work with what we know about the series. I just don't see Nakaba going that deep with it, honestly. I'd tip my hat off to him if he did. The Age of Chaos one in particular would make more sense as, at least in my opinion, it would explain the sudden growth better. Although, it makes me wonder why the level of Arthur's Knights have been so sporadic. I feel like they all would've greatly benefitted from being right near the King of Chaos. But that may have something to do with whatever Arthur's planning.

 

[Epic_Rider]

I'd argue the literal power levels just exemplified the other problems with the powercreep. It's bad enough when most of the cast is completely incapable of damaging any of the major enemies, but it gets even more annoying when the explanation boils down their invisible stat numbers being too low.

Except the series went out of it's way to show us many examples of how even people with low PL's could fight against people stronger than they were.

As for the humans powering up, I considered that, but the thing that makes me question the idea is how Matrona (and by extension Howzer) compares to all the other holy knights. Never mind Zaratras and Dreyfus being less than half as strong as Matrona, but even Diane, Ban, King, Gowther and Merlin had worse stats than her until the buffs most of them received during the events of NnT. This would mean that Howzer fighting against some low tier demons made him significantly stronger than a 3000 year old witch and an over 1000 year old fairy king. Surely those two would have ended up getting more fighting experience than Howzer over the course of all those centuries?

Merlin's Infinity makes power levels relatively moot for her and as a mage, frontline combat is not really her thing to begin with. King spent most of his life lazing around the forest, only scoring easy wins when he did fight. I can honestly believe that the combat experience Howzer got during the Holy War was of much better quality than anything King had, at the very least.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Gaiwain being slapped like a bitch makes me happy tbh.

But like others have said, the direction where Nakaba takes her character is extremely important. We all know his track record for female characters...

First I get shafted by the NNT mobile game this morning

A Grand Cross Juicer?

Escanor that fought Mel when he was younger was much weaker than the Escanor that fought the Demon King.

If sunshine becomes stronger on the user's skill of managing the grace, instead of it being a flat PL boost depending on time of day - then why was Mael scared to fight the Demon King?

He has an independent PL separate from the grace as an archangel, and he's clearly superior in managing the sun grace (as we clearly saw) - so with this logic, he should get more power from sunshine, but instead... gives it to Escanor?

Like at this point you cannot convince me that Noon Mael wouldn't have fodderized a Prime Demon King. Nakaba cannot write consistency in his story.

There is a little bit of difference. Elizabeth will fight off her enemies if they threaten to take/kill Meliodas or any of her other friends (Nakaba clarified she got her bloody title because she defended her friends in the past), if the enemy doesn't threaten to do anything like that she'll heal and comfort them like she did in the battle with some other country's men (during Gloxinia and Drole's battle grounds (gosh am I saying this right?)).

You're correct from a plot/lore point of view, since that is what Nakaba described her character to be - a peaceful angel who prefers to support/protect than to hurt/kill. However, where you are wrong is in the execution of Nakaba's writing. Elizabeth may be said to ''fight to protect her friends and family'' but in actual practice, she doesn't do anything.

She's not allowed to do anything, Nakaba doesn't allow her to do so. Just look at Cursed By Light, she just stood there and watched Meliodas, Zeldris & Gelda getting wrecked by the enemies, and instead of, I don't know, maybe fighting back or using a supportive spell, what does she do? She just throws herself into the enemy sealing technique. And when the Supreme Deity comes out, she does nothing as well DESPITE saying she will fight.

This exact treatment is what I'm already seeing in some of the females in 4KOA (early signs of it) and it's concerning because it just confounds female characters to be nothing more than a plot device for the males in the show.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

If sunshine becomes stronger on the user's skill of managing the grace, instead of it being a flat PL boost depending on time of day - then why was Mael scared to fight the Demon King?

He has an independent PL separate from the grace as an archangel, and he's clearly superior in managing the sun grace (as we clearly saw) - so with this logic, he should get more power from sunshine, but instead... gives it to Escanor?

Like at this point you cannot convince me that Noon Mael wouldn't have fodderized a Prime Demon King. Nakaba cannot write consistency in his story.

I mean the reason is because Nakaba honestly just sucks at consistency.

None of the sins were even necessary. Meliodas already showed that he could one shot the one when Escanor was a young adult so by that logic he should also be able to just one shot his dad without killing him no problem. Mael losing is simply because aside from Ludo, he can’t write any decent goddess probably because he finds them boring.

Plus the chapter says it’s the excess strength that’s throwing her around instead of being used properly and the only excess addition to strength comes from sunshine.

 

[Jdmp53]

Q46: 3Apple-san: What is the power level of the current Howzer?
A: Over Matrona's.[/SPOILER]

Dang...that's neat...boy worked really hard for someone who's only human and to go from 2k to over 8k

and lol...i had to give up counting escanor references in panels in this chp and that transiton at end is just...umm....not my liking....feels like a 3yr old kid ..i think that's the worst "opposite" side to her characterization nakaba could've given...

--- Double Post Merged, May 25, 2022, Original Post Date: May 25, 2022 ---

Now that Howser is stronger than Matrona and should be around 10k in pl, do y'all think Gilthunder and Griamore are also around that level now, cause I think Gilthunder is most definitely in that tier

unless he's become more of a family man....man so much char to look forward to in this sequel

 

[HereNThere]

A Grand Cross Juicer?

I was about to get juiced alright. My hand was on my wallet and I was about to spend cash on it, but I managed to come to my senses. Speaking of which, your girl is about to be the next big unit it seems.

 

[Jason-Smithy-The-Cobbler]

Gaiwain being slapped like a bitch makes me happy tbh.

But like others have said, the direction where Nakaba takes her character is extremely important. We all know his track record for female characters...



A Grand Cross Juicer?



If sunshine becomes stronger on the user's skill of managing the grace, instead of it being a flat PL boost depending on time of day - then why was Mael scared to fight the Demon King?

He has an independent PL separate from the grace as an archangel, and he's clearly superior in managing the sun grace (as we clearly saw) - so with this logic, he should get more power from sunshine, but instead... gives it to Escanor?

Like at this point you cannot convince me that Noon Mael wouldn't have fodderized a Prime Demon King. Nakaba cannot write consistency in his story.



You're correct from a plot/lore point of view, since that is what Nakaba described her character to be - a peaceful angel who prefers to support/protect than to hurt/kill. However, where you are wrong is in the execution of Nakaba's writing. Elizabeth may be said to ''fight to protect her friends and family'' but in actual practice, she doesn't do anything.

She's not allowed to do anything, Nakaba doesn't allow her to do so. Just look at Cursed By Light, she just stood there and watched Meliodas, Zeldris & Gelda getting wrecked by the enemies, and instead of, I don't know, maybe fighting back or using a supportive spell, what does she do? She just throws herself into the enemy sealing technique. And when the Supreme Deity comes out, she does nothing as well DESPITE saying she will fight.

This exact treatment is what I'm already seeing in some of the females in 4KOA (early signs of it) and it's concerning because it just confounds female characters to be nothing more than a plot device for the males in the show.

Noon mael can’t fodderize the demon king because Mael forgot the power of love after being cucked (technically not actual cucking since he was never in a relationship with liz but close enough)

--- Double Post Merged, May 25, 2022, Original Post Date: May 25, 2022 ---

Noon mael can’t fodderize the demon king because Mael forgot the power of love after being cucked (technically not actual cucking since he was never in a relationship with liz but close enough)

Speaking of Liz, and correct me if I’m wrong, but we’ve never seen her post tristan right? If so, is it safe to assume she died during child birth?

edit: Nevermind, I found the chapter. She was still alive post birth

edit2: I can still salvage this theory. She and mel went for another kid but mel forgot to hold back his power so he damaged her internal organs and she dies during childbirth alongside the second child. And since Nakabe hasn’t shown otherwise you can’t prove this wrong

 

[Demonspeed]

Tristan said that the only ones who might have been able to heal Chion's arm were Hendrickson and Elizabeth so she is alive.

 

[Meliodaf]

Elizabeth appears in the same chapter that Tristan appears in for the first time

 

[Rikudou King]

With the way she spoke, Gawian seems as if she was raised under the belief that she was superior to others. I suppose that would fit with the comment about her being descendant from a king... And it seems the takeaway from this chapter is while Gawian has strength and speed, she doesn't have any real training beyond the basics. Kind of makes sense, Sunshine is on paper OP, and one wouldn't be wrong in assuming that just having it would make her powerful. But I guess this time around there are gonna be limitations place on it, presuming Gawain has the actual Sunshine grace and not some kind of copy.

I don't fault Tristan for not wanting to fight Gawain, especially since he was probably raised on how important the four knights are. And I'm curious what will happen with Pelle now. Will he willingly leave due to reasons, or will someone else interfere... We were shown Meliodas last chapter, and I don't see why he would continue to just hang back...

 

[escoxking]

Is there anywhere I can read all the chapters??