American Politics

[ninjabot]

Covid and the flu persist in nature due to cats, dogs, birds, rats and other mammals carrying it.

The infection is transmitted from people to animals. And vice versa.

It doesn't persist due to people refusing to be vaccinated.

It is confirmed to reduce risk of receiving the virus.

Interim Estimates of Vaccine Effectiveness of BNT162b2 and mRNA

mRNA COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness against SARS-CoV-2 infection

www.cdc.gov

No one claimed it was a panacea.

 

[Sanity Check]

It is confirmed to reduce risk of receiving the virus.

Interim Estimates of Vaccine Effectiveness of BNT162b2 and mRNA

mRNA COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness against SARS-CoV-2 infection

www.cdc.gov

No one claimed it was a panacea.

Well, you know I support mask mandates as the science supports it.

I cannot do the same with vaccines however. I think they're too untested. There is not enough data to draw hard conclusions yet. Just my opinion.

Reverse Engineering the source code of the BioNTech/Pfizer SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine

Reverse Engineering the source code of the BioNTech/Pfizer SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine Posted on Dec 25 2020 19 mins read Welcome! In this post, we’ll be taking a character-by-character look at the source code of the BioNTech/Pfizer SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccine. I want to thank the large cast of people...

mangahelpers.com

I am a fan of vaccine technology btw. Check above thread for more info.

 

[ninjabot]

Well, you know I support mask mandates as the science supports it.

Science supports vaccines as well.

I cannot do the same with vaccines however. I think they're too untested. There is not enough data to draw hard conclusions yet. Just my opinion.

We gain our better understanding on how it effects the society at large the more people take these vaccines because we get a larger install base of different races, body types, and the like. And normally vaccines take about 5 years to "perfect" anyway, but the virus isn't waiting for us. Wait if you want to, but don't think you're not complicit in the virus sticking around. The less people that carry it means potentially less people can get it.

For the record, this is why leftists boil down conservative belief to "Fuck you, got mine." Because WE are getting the vaccine to save other people, even though we know it could have side effects that put us in danger, but YOU won't get it because of the danger to yourself, DESPITE the help it could cause for society at large.

Forgive the virtue signaling, but this is exactly what it seems like you're saying. Feel free to correct me if I'm jumping to conclusions (which could be the case).

 

[M3J]

That is still pretty impressive. Here, the 15 minute was mandatory and we stayed till they asked us to leave...

Unfortunately, most of their voter base doesn't care about real conservatism either. They are more concerned about Trumpist agendas.... But its good to see both sides of the argument, albeit the source is important.

I'm not sure if it was, they didn't tell me it was, just that we were to wait. We were allowed to leave on our own, I guess they were hoping we'd comply just to be on the safe side.

I'm not sure if it's really Trumpist agendas as much as it is bigoted and white supremacist agendas. Trump just normalized that but he wasn't the first or the big one to do it. It's bad form that he gets blamed for everything when he should be blamed for continuing it and making it worse.

 

[xi0]

For the record, this is why leftists boil down conservative belief to "Fuck you, got mine." Because WE are getting the vaccine to save other people, even though we know it could have side effects that put us in danger, but YOU won't get it because of the danger to yourself, DESPITE the help it could cause for society at large.

It's the church of individualism. Any sort of collectivism, even in the face of terrible circumstances, is communist and evil. Because we're just all sheeple being manipulated by the billionaire class... who are enabled and empowered by right-wing economic policy. Makes sense, right?

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2021 ---

I don't think vaccine can prevent cervical cancer though?

It's an HPV vaccine, and HPV can cause cervical cancer.

 

[Sanity Check]

We gain our better understanding on how it effects the society at large the more people take these vaccines because we get a larger install base of different races, body types, and the like. And normally vaccines take about 5 years to "perfect" anyway, but the virus isn't waiting for us. Wait if you want to, but don't think you're not complicit in the virus sticking around. The less people that carry it means potentially less people can get it.

For the record, this is why leftists boil down conservative belief to "Fuck you, got mine." Because WE are getting the vaccine to save other people, even though we know it could have side effects that put us in danger, but YOU won't get it because of the danger to yourself, DESPITE the help it could cause for society at large.

Forgive the virtue signaling, but this is exactly what it seems like you're saying. Feel free to correct me if I'm jumping to conclusions (which could be the case).

Bill Gates is the biggest philanthropic spokesman and supporter of vaccines globally. For many years Bill Gates travelled the world giving speeches, endorsing vaccines and encouraging the technology

When COVID 1st emerged Bill Gates was the leading figurehead and authority figure for vaccines to address the dangers posed by the pandemic.

For whatever reason, Bill Gates completely disappeared. The media hasn't mentioned any connection between Bill Gates and COVID vaccines in 6+ months.

Maybe someone realized the COVID vaccine rollout wasn't going to go smoothly. They needed someone (derp) to become the new figurehead for COVID vaccines and take all the blame for anything that went wrong.


And perhaps they found willing candidates in the Trump family.

...

BTW when you say "the more people that carry the vaccine, the less people can get it".

What you're really saying is, the vaccine doesn't immunize against every single strain of the pandemic. Its like the flu shot.

There are so many different strains of the flu that a vaccine could not hope to immunize a person against all of them.

So it is possible by that admission alone that the technology behind the COVID vaccine is fundamentally flawed and does not work. Is it fair if I say that?

 

[ninjabot]

BTW when you say "the more people that carry the vaccine, the less people can get it".

What you're really saying is, the vaccine doesn't immunize against every single strain of the pandemic. Its like the flu shot.

Yeah, I already admitted it's not a panacea. It's not a cure-all.

There are so many different strains of the flu that a vaccine could not hope to immunize a person against all of them.

Not all of them, no.

So it is possible by that admission alone that the technology behind the COVID vaccine is fundamentally flawed and does not work. Is it fair if I say that?

Flawed, yes. Doesn't work? No, because millions are being helped by the vaccines already. But that's not my argument. My argument is that given the opportunity to help society by taking the vaccine, you chose not to to protect yourself.

Which is your right of course... but scientific consensus should be reason enough to assuage your fears. It's enough to assuage mine. That, combined with empathy for the people around me that I can potentially protect. That's not enough for you? So be it.

 

[Sanity Check]

Yeah, I already admitted it's not a panacea. It's not a cure-all.



Not all of them, no.



Flawed, yes. Doesn't work? No, because millions are being helped by the vaccines already. But that's not my argument. My argument is that given the opportunity to help society by taking the vaccine, you chose not to to protect yourself.

Which is your right of course... but scientific consensus should be reason enough to assuage your fears. It's enough to assuage mine. That, combined with empathy for the people around me that I can potentially protect. That's not enough for you? So be it.

Blind faith in vaccines, is as bad if not worse than blind faith in religion.

There were more effective and better proposals put on the table than vaccines or herd immunity, which were not pursued.

If I can find links I'll post the info up later.

My stance on this is the best science to deal with the pandemic was left in a corner gathering dust.

The only measures approved for public use, is the same flawed technology that has already been proven not to work with the flu shot.

The vaccine rollout is intended to suit political agendas rather than scientific or medical ones.

 

[hokageji]

When COVID 1st emerged Bill Gates was the leading figurehead and authority figure for vaccines to address the dangers posed by the pandemic.

For whatever reason, Bill Gates completely disappeared. The media hasn't mentioned any connection between Bill Gates and COVID vaccines in 6+ months.

Thats because bill gates helped with the logistical issues that can occur with it. He's not an expert on the vaccine itself. Sure, his team helped with the malaria, but that the challenge was more of how to get things in place.

Fauci is the guy. Even George Bush Sr, in his presidential candidacy had spoken volumes of him as an american hero. His expertise is what matters.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2021 ---

Blind faith in vaccines, is as bad if not worse than blind faith in religion.

you can put your faith in medical professionals. They know what they are doing. If you purchase a homeopathic vaccine, then sure, its not gonna work. But a vaccine rolled out to an entire nation by the government and handled by professionals, definitely.

 

[ninjabot]

Blind faith in vaccines, is as bad if not worse than blind faith in religion.

No it isn't. But even if it was, no one here has blind faith in vaccines. I've consistently admitted to you that it's not considered to be a cure-all.

There were more effective and better proposals put on the table than vaccines or herd immunity, which were not pursued.

If I can find links I'll post later.[/quote]

Be sure to post WHY they weren't chosen as well, not just that they weren't chosen.

My stance on this is the best science to deal with the pandemic was left in a corner gathering dust.

And the only thing approved for public use, is the same flawed technology that has already been proven not to work with the flu, etc.

Whatever.

 

[xi0]

There were more effective and better proposals put on the table than vaccines or herd immunity, which were not pursued.

There were more effective and better proposals put on the table than a method that would result in a person being unable to to fall seriously ill or even be infected in the first place and spread it to other people?

Where?

 

[Sanity Check]

Conspiracy theories.

I guess these will be debunked shortly?

There were more effective and better proposals put on the table than a method that would result in a person being unable to to fall seriously ill or even be infected in the first place and spread it to other people?

Where?

It was in a bookmark folder of around 50 COVID links on my old laptop that died.

Think I can recover it. Only have to figure out where the bookmark file is in the /dir.

 

[xi0]

Conspiracy theories.

I guess these will be debunked shortly?

Being around vaccinated people? What...

I've seen it mentioned that some women might be having heavier periods after their vaccination, but it's obviously anecdotal.

It was in a bookmark folder of around 50 COVID links on my old laptop that died.

Think I can recover it. Only have to figure out where the bookmark file is in the /dir.

So the better solution is stuck on a broken laptop somewhere. Gotcha lol.

 

[M3J]

It's an HPV vaccine, and HPV can cause cervical cancer.

My point still stands though?

In any case, the covid vaccines working has more proof than any other wonky conspiracy theories the right have come up with. And to no irony, the republican politicians are the first one to get the vaccines.

 

[xi0]

My point still stands though?

In any case, the covid vaccines working has more proof than any other wonky conspiracy theories the right have come up with. And to no irony, the republican politicians are the first one to get the vaccines.

You said vaccines can't prevent cancer, that's all I addressed.

 

[McNuss]

I think people have lost to understand one another.

And that's a huge problem.

Why do conspiracy theories work? It's because they tackle another way of thinking. Academics often don't get this dimension as school tells them logic is the only correct way of thinking. But via aesthetic experience, children discover gravity without being Newton...

You can solve fictive plots with that way of thinking, way before they end. Usually, when you read a book, you just know what is going to happen to some degree. With that way of thinking, you can become a great artist, or a charismatic speaker.

But it also bears dangers. Fascist propaganda abuses exactly that dimension of thinking. They know which buttons they have to press to trigger what emotion in their uneducated clients.

And that's the point, most people who believe in conspiracy theories aren't dumb, they just think different, and as such are uneducated as our education systems where never developed for them, they literally don't fit their brains.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2021 ---

Now regardless of that, only a vocal percent of vaccine scepticism is coming from that direction.

The silent majority is probably just sceptical because that's how humans are. Most of these people will eventually get it though. Social circumstances and positive results will do their work.

There are also people who had bad experiences with medicine. Every medicine has a small percentage of very bad side effects and every therapy can be done wrong, causing harm. It's only a small percentage for each, but all of these add up.

The vaccines were developed fast and with shortened approval methods. If someone's relative dies from one, people will go to court and these are going to be very long cases. Politics want to prevent that, hence their change of action with certain vaccines.

Personally I was first open to anything but now I want BioNtech or Moderna, while I am skeptical of Astra Zeneca due to all the bad press. My mother and friends who work at hospitals or with elderly people have all gotten BioNTech and had no complications whatsoever.

I also heard that Johnson & Johnson got bad press but I don't know much about it. It isn't talked much about in Germany outside of my own hometown's local press as it was partially developed here by their subsidiary company Janssen Cilag, though I don't know what they did, probably data analysis and the articles where more like advertisement during early stages of development.

 

[SharkBait]

even pro-police people are anti-police.

 

[M3J]

I also heard that Johnson & Johnson got bad press but I don't know much about it. It isn't talked much about in Germany outside of my own hometown's local press as it was partially developed here by their subsidiary company Janssen Cilag, though I don't know what they did, probably data analysis and the articles where more like advertisement during early stages of development.

It causes a very very rare case of blood clot. I think about 6 out of 6 million people got it? Women especially are angry because people are losing their shit over an extremely low rate of blood clot while getting blood clot from birth control is much higher, but no one seemed to raise a ruckus over that. There really was no reason to pull J&J.

 

[xi0]

There really was no reason to pull J&J.

I mean, that's not true. Public health officials are in a better position to do this because there are existing alternatives.

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they ignore the reports, people will become untrusting. If they stop administering the vaccine people will take it as confirmation that none of them are safe because they were developed quicker than usual.

 

[M3J]

I mean, that's not true. Public health officials are in a better position to do this because there are existing alternatives.

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they ignore the reports, people will become untrusting. If they stop administering the vaccine people will take it as confirmation that none of them are safe because they were developed quicker than usual.

But are there enough of the alternatives to go around?

What they can do though is acknowledge that there's a risk of blood clot, but the risk is much lower than the risk from taking birth control or I believe contracting covid. Either way, people are still going to be suspicious.