American Politics

[kkck]

The issue is that "remove incentives for illegal immigration" requires changing how this country works economically or paying a living wage for jobs no citizen wants to do. Democrats can't even raise the federal minimum wage when they're in power.

TBH one of the more surprising parts of this discussion to me is that the leftwing-progressive honest to god answer to this is "yeah, let's continue to pay illegal aliens a below livable wage under the table.". And sure, this requires changing how the economy works (or removing the incentives itself would be what changes the economy). I just don't think this is likely to be a bad thing in the long term.

This reminds me to stuff I keep hearing in my side of the world. You'll always find the economist who argues "hey, corruption generates X amount of money so we can't get rid of it too quickly" or "hey, you can't actually take down the drug trade because it generates economic activity". There's always a reason to not fix things...

 

[M3J]

Undocumented immigrants leave their coutnries to find better opportunities or safer place to call home. Sending them back to the same hellhole is mostly evil and inhumane. Why punish them for wanting better? Plus, USA used to hype itself up as the place where people can achieve their dreams by hard work, so of course people do what they can to get into the US. If anything, blame the US for destabilizing a lot of countries and forcing the immigrants to seek better life.

 

[kkck]

So what's the deal with USAID paying money to news organizations? Is this true? Didn't hear of USAID until last week so I am not sure of what exactly it is that trump's government is claiming.

 

[ninjabot]

If we think for a second hypothetically - if the Israeli government suggested a plan such as this without any input from an American president, and that president was instead Harris or Biden, or anyone else considered mainstream, what do you think their reaction would be? They'd condemn it perhaps, but what would they do to prevent it?

The attempt I mentioned in a previous exchange we had that you dismissed. Which didn't include taking over Gaza and kicking all the Palestinians out. I'm also not allowing you all to give Trump the win for the ceasefire deal Biden had been working toward for a year. The one win the Palestinian people got was courtesy of Joe Biden. A Democrat.

Because of course Trump is a soulless ghoul and would off-the-cuff say something as monstrous as he did. But do we really think Biden or Harris actually think any differently?

What has Biden or Kamala said that gives you reason to believe that they want America to take over Gaza and kick all the Palestinians out? SPECIFICALLY that exact action, because that's what we're talking about.

Is there anything other than absolute capitulation to terrorist sympathizers that would convince you that they're better than Trump on the issue of Israel/Palestine?

I mean, maybe it's like you said, both bad so who cares, vote for who is best for us. That's fine. Not arguing against that. But despair on this issue exists for a reason.

There are degrees of despair around this issue, some that can't be helped. Others that are exasperated by horrible people making stupid decisions when trying to fix the issue. I want these horrible people to hurt. Bad people should be hurt into being good people. Or hurt until they're not around good people so we don't have to deal with them.

"Socialist activists" who took some sort of moral standing are not the reason we're in the position we are right now

I already addressed this in my edit. I reminded myself that Leftists don't vote and there weren't enough to swing the vote even if they did all vote for Kamala because of all the other demographics that turned on the Dems. Fuck these people still though.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 5, 2025, Original Post Date: Feb 5, 2025 ---

TBH one of the more surprising parts of this discussion to me is that the leftwing-progressive honest to god answer to this is "yeah, let's continue to pay illegal aliens a below livable wage under the table.". And sure, this requires changing how the economy works (or removing the incentives itself would be what changes the economy). I just don't think this is likely to be a bad thing in the long term.

Actual American citizens are paid below a livable wage *shrug*

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 6, 2025 ---

Trump signs executive order targeting 'anti-Christian bias'

President Donald Trump says he will form a task force to eradicate what he called "anti-Christian bias" within the federal government.

www.usatoday.com

This is a good thing, actually.

Well, for me as an edgy Atheist.

According to many polls, while Americans aren't becoming Atheists, the amount of "None"s or non-religious is growing a lot, and when asked why the answer is "politics".

Trump is making Americans hate Christianity. That's pretty fucking cool.

 

[shionoro]

The same plan applies: if the person they voted for this time resulted in a UK that they hate, then they vote for the opposite of that.

That did not work. Less people voted for Starmer (in absolute numbers) than for Corbyn. The only reason Starmer won was because there is an even more right wing party than the tories now that sucked some of their votes. The increase in poverty (and quite honestly embarassment) made people more apathetic, and apathetic people are less likely to vote. In the last election, there was a historic low in turnout (only just over half of the british people voted), even tho the situation of the country is worse than ever. Starmer still had a theoretical chance to turn things around and gain back trust for politics, but he plays (just like democrats do) business as usual. He is not a real change, he just makes decline go a little slower, he does not turn it around. Just like democrats.

Bad thing Bad? No want? No vote for man who do Bad Thing. Vote for Good Man.

But this election had no good man or woman to vote for. That is the point. You need to be good, not less bad. If you are just less bad, your victory is hollow as you are not going to get ongoing trust. Which means whatever you are doing has no legitimacy and will be destroyed in one term of the bad party (as we can see in real time right now).

If you ever want to turn this ship around, you need to start with a good man or woman and not with crying angry tears about people who at least cared enough to tell you why they cannot trust you.

 

[ninjabot]

That did not work. Less people voted for Starmer (in absolute numbers) than for Corbyn. The only reason Starmer won was because there is an even more right wing party than the tories now that sucked some of their votes. The increase in poverty (and quite honestly embarassment) made people more apathetic, and apathetic people are less likely to vote. In the last election, there was a historic low in turnout (only just over half of the british people voted), even tho the situation of the country is worse than ever. Starmer still had a theoretical chance to turn things around and gain back trust for politics, but he plays (just like democrats do) business as usual. He is not a real change, he just makes decline go a little slower, he does not turn it around. Just like democrats.

Then these people deserve what's coming to them as well. Did you think that the fact that they were British meant they were above suffering the consequences of their actions? That there isn't a price to be paid for apathy? For ignorance? Why does everyone have to change except the people who cause the problem?

But this election had no good man or woman to vote for. That is the point. You need to be good, not less bad. If you are just less bad, your victory is hollow as you are not going to get ongoing trust.

That's just objectively false. You know, as well as I do, that nothing happening now would have happened if Kamala won the presidency. I don't believe for the briefest of seconds that you're this naive.

Which means whatever you are doing has no legitimacy and will be destroyed in one term of the bad party (as we can see in real time right now).

If you ever want to turn this ship around, you need to start with a good man or woman and not with crying angry tears about people who at least cared enough to tell you why they cannot trust you.

First off, if a president has the power to simply undo anything he wants whenever he wants then there is no such thing as legitimacy. What's that Harry Potter quote? "There's no such thing as good and evil. There's just power, and those with the will to use it." The future is about shoring power, influence, and resources so that your opponents can't stop you from doing what you want to do. As long as MAGA is a thing it has to be All Hands on Deck. None of this "vote your conscience" pussy shit.

And for the rest of it: a lot of things need to happen for us to turn this ship around. First, the ship needs to begin sinking. And I want the people obstinately refusing to help throw buckets full of water out of the ship to keep it afloat to fall in the icy waters below, left behind to fend for themselves.

And I want the people watching them fade away over the horizon to finally be scared into accepting that the captain was right about the path we're sailing toward, and get in line to start patching up the holes in the ship whether they want to or not.

Fear is a much stronger motivator than hope. Which is fortunate for me, because there is no hope for these losers.

 

[shionoro]

Then these people deserve what's coming to them as well. Did you think that the fact that they were British meant they were above suffering the consequences of their actions? That there isn't a price to be paid for apathy? For ignorance? Why does everyone have to change except the people who cause the problem?

So then we just say humanity deserves what is coming to them and call it a day instead learning how to actually do successful politics? What does that help?

That's just objectively false. You know, as well as I do, that nothing happening now would have happened if Kamala won the presidency. I don't believe for the briefest of seconds that you're this naive.

It is not. Neither Kamala nor Joe Biden can pass as a politician who objectively fights for the good of the nation or world. What happens now would not have happened under Kamala, that is true. But that is not enough to pass a leader worthy of trust. It would not have happened under Bush or Nixon and they were certainly not deserving of trust.

@xi0 is absolutely right when he says that Kamala would not have done what Trump did but also not have stopped Israel from simply doing it slower. The same is true about their other policies (climate, wealth inequality and so on). They were not candidates that any politically savvy person could trust to leader the world or the nation onto a better path. Better than Trump? Yes. Better than catastrophic decline? No.

First off, if a president has the power to simply undo anything he wants whenever he wants then there is no such thing as legitimacy. What's that Harry Potter quote? "There's no such thing as good and evil. There's just power, and those with the will to use it." The future is about shoring power, influence, and resources so that your opponents can't stop you from doing what you want to do. As long as MAGA is a thing it has to be All Hands on Deck. None of this "vote your conscience" pussy shit.

And for the rest of it: a lot of things need to happen for us to turn this ship around. First, the ship needs to begin sinking. And I want the people obstinately refusing to help throw buckets full of water out of the ship to keep it afloat to fall in the icy waters below, left behind to fend for themselves.

And I want the people watching them fade away over the horizon to finally be scared into accepting that the captain was right about the path we're sailing toward, and get in line to start patching up the holes in the ship whether they want to or not.

Fear is a much stronger motivator than hope. Which is fortunate for me, because there is no hope for these losers.

You often talk about power, yet you propose a way of handling politics that is very weak and has nothing at all to stand up against fascism or oligarchy. Vengeful whining definitely seems like pussy shit to me, especially compared to actual leadership in dark times (which can be done even as the oppositional party).

Also, the irony is not lost on me about how vengeful you look at voters right now and how you are hoping that bad things happen to them. After all, you accused me of being amoral when I said, on the long run, it is better to lose an election while fighting for the right things than to win it fighting for the wrong things.

 

[M3J]

If you ever want to turn this ship around, you need to start with a good man or woman and not with crying angry tears about people who at least cared enough to tell you why they cannot trust you.

An entire year of leftists telling Dems how to get leftists to support them again, only to be ignored because Dems are too lazy and care more about money than winning.

This isn't on the leftists as much as it is on the Dems and their voter base for alienating people.

 

[shionoro]

An entire year of leftists telling Dems how to get leftists to support them again, only to be ignored because Dems are too lazy and care more about money than winning.

This isn't on the leftists as much as it is on the Dems and their voter base for alienating people.

There was a somewhat similar situation with the German left party and pro Gaza activists. Some activists were unhappy with the partystance and became loud on twitter and in party discussions. One main dissent was that the party decided against calling the situation a genocide (which was a compromise because there are different factions in that party, some of them supporting Israel).

But there are two important differences:

a) The partystance is significantly pro peace. They openly demand the stop of all German weapon deliveries to countries with ongoing conflicts (including Israel) and they also demand that Germany recognizes Palestina and an end of the westbank occupation.

b) They never vilified the their critics. They did (in my opinion rightfully) banish a member who openly glorified Hamas, but they engage with their critics on that topic by explaining their stance without hostilities. Basically, they try to convince people who disagree that their policy is still GOOD rather than just saying that the other parties are worse.

In my opinion, that is why the party was not hampered by pro gaza dissenters (even tho these are obviously more relevant inside the left than inside society). There are some haters who openly call for not voting the party, but they are very few and it never gained any traction (and tbh, it often seems like it is done by trolls in bad faith because they usually try to funnel people into another, much smaller party).

I don't think people stop voting a party because they have some disagreement. I am pro Ukraine weapon deliveries and still will vote that party even tho it does not want to deliver more weapons to Ukraine. It is about explaining your stance, why you do it, and still seem coherent and trustworthy to the voters.

How would I trust Kamala on climate change if she "changes her mind" on fracking? I would have to be very naive to do so. I could trust someone who outlines a coherent climate plan that might be slower than I like but still seems realistic enough. But that never happened.

 

[ninjabot]

So then we just say humanity deserves what is coming to them and call it a day instead learning how to actually do successful politics? What does that help?

It helps people that want to avoid self-destruction to get in line. We can't appeal to logic with these people, we have to appeal to emotion. And fear is the strongest motivator.

As long as you people are preaching rainbows, butterflies, and daffodils, they'll ignore the country burning down around them.

It is not. Neither Kamala nor Joe Biden can pass as a politician who objectively fights for the good of the nation or world.

See? Fantasy shit. Bubblegum and lollipops. Saccharine dreams when what you should be concerned with is damage mitigation.

What happens now would not have happened under Kamala, that is true. But that is not enough to pass a leader worthy of trust. It would not have happened under Bush or Nixon and they were certainly not deserving of trust.

You're not voting for your goddamned spouse.

@xi0 is absolutely right when he says that Kamala would not have done what Trump did but also not have stopped Israel from simply doing it slower. The same is true about their other policies (climate, wealth inequality and so on). They were not candidates that any politically savvy person could trust to leader the world or the nation onto a better path. Better than Trump? Yes. Better than catastrophic decline? No.

Then that means I'm absolutely right too. I've never once said they (Biden and Kamala) were perfect. Just that they were better, and the morons that couldn't recognize this are to be ridiculed and ostracized from society.

You often talk about power, yet you propose a way of handling politics that is very weak and has nothing at all to stand up against fascism or oligarchy. Vengeful whining definitely seems like pussy shit to me, especially compared to actual leadership in dark times (which can be done even as the oppositional party).

*shrugs*

Also, the irony is not lost on me about how vengeful you look at voters right now and how you are hoping that bad things happen to them. After all, you accused me of being amoral when I said, on the long run, it is better to lose an election while fighting for the right things than to win it fighting for the wrong things.

I AM vengeful. That's why I look vengeful. I'm putting lots of effort into seeming vengeful and hateful. That's not an accident. Because I meant what I said: it is immoral to throw an election to get what you want in the long run, because you're throwing EVERYONE relying on that election win under the bus as well.

 

[M3J]

There was a somewhat similar situation with the German left party and pro Gaza activists. Some activists were unhappy with the partystance and became loud on twitter and in party discussions. One main dissent was that the party decided against calling the situation a genocide (which was a compromise because there are different factions in that party, some of them supporting Israel).

But there are two important differences:

a) The partystance is significantly pro peace. They openly demand the stop of all German weapon deliveries to countries with ongoing conflicts (including Israel) and they also demand that Germany recognizes Palestina and an end of the westbank occupation.

b) They never vilified the their critics. They did (in my opinion rightfully) banish a member who openly glorified Hamas, but they engage with their critics on that topic by explaining their stance without hostilities. Basically, they try to convince people who disagree that their policy is still GOOD rather than just saying that the other parties are worse.

In my opinion, that is why the party was not hampered by pro gaza dissenters (even tho these are obviously more relevant inside the left than inside society). There are some haters who openly call for not voting the party, but they are very few and it never gained any traction (and tbh, it often seems like it is done by trolls in bad faith because they usually try to funnel people into another, much smaller party).

I don't think people stop voting a party because they have some disagreement. I am pro Ukraine weapon deliveries and still will vote that party even tho it does not want to deliver more weapons to Ukraine. It is about explaining your stance, why you do it, and still seem coherent and trustworthy to the voters.

How would I trust Kamala on climate change if she "changes her mind" on fracking? I would have to be very naive to do so. I could trust someone who outlines a coherent climate plan that might be slower than I like but still seems realistic enough. But that never happened.

Yep, exactly! Maybe Gaza wasn't the sole deciding factor, but there were other issues that showed Biden as unreliable or a liar, and that carried over to Harris too as his vice president. She also hurt herself by changing her stances on issues as well and confusing/alienating people that wanted to vote for her.

It's not just the Dem politicians that messed up, but dumbasses like destiny too who kept saying Dems didn't need the left and were so antagonistic towards the left. As I said, despite what "pundits" like destiny thought, Dems should have gone for appealing to the left. The problem is, while Dems deserved to lose, Trump being in power is disastrous.

 

[shionoro]

It helps people that want to avoid self-destruction to get in line. We can't appeal to logic with these people, we have to appeal to emotion. And fear is the strongest motivator.

As long as you people are preaching rainbows, butterflies, and daffodils, they'll ignore the country burning down around them.

Hey, I am not the one who advocates lying to voters by claiming that moderate policies can save us. It is you who advocates for preaching rainbows, choosing your message tactically (and not based on morals and truth) and basically seeing voters like cattle. And you still still lost with that approach, because it is obvious that Dems did not know better which voting groups they needed and how to speak to them. Instead of accepting that and listening to these voters more than to their failed strategists, they cry about how voters failed them. The only people who give their emotion the best of them here are Democrats coping hard with their own mistakes. And that is a shame, because it would be great if the only relevant oppositional party against fascism wasnt a sorry pile of tears right now.

Then that means I'm absolutely right too. I've never once said they (Biden and Kamala) were perfect. Just that they were better, and the morons that couldn't recognize this are to be ridiculed and ostracized from society.

It does not. You said there was a good candidate offered to the American people. There was not. Better is not good. Nobody expected perfect, but there is a baseline. Kamala did not meet that baseline and you are proposing that "better than the horrible guy but still horrible" is a great message to have. That is wrong, it evidently does not work. And it never will, at least not on the long run. After all, Trump came back after voters gave Biden a chance who ran on "not trump".

I AM vengeful. That's why I look vengeful. I'm putting lots of effort into seeming vengeful and hateful. That's not an accident. Because I meant what I said: it is immoral to throw an election to get what you want in the long run, because you're throwing EVERYONE relying on that election win under the bus as well.

I propose winning elections by fighting for the right thing even if it might be harder to win. And if a candidate like that loses, I am not running around blaming everyone who didnt vote them and wishing them ill. Instead, that is the time to build on the trust you earned fighting for the right thing with the right means. You propose winning elections by tactically fighting for bullshit with questionable means and then still lose, and after that you accuse everyone else except your failed tactic.

 

[ninjabot]

Hey, I am not the one who advocates lying to voters by claiming that moderate policies can save us. It is you who advocates for preaching rainbows, choosing your message tactically (and not based on morals and truth) and basically seeing voters like cattle. And you still still lost with that approach, because it is obvious that Dems did not know better which voting groups they needed and how to speak to them. Instead of accepting that and listening to these voters more than to their failed strategists, they cry about how voters failed them. The only people who give their emotion the best of them here are Democrats coping hard with their own mistakes. And that is a shame, because it would be great if the only relevant oppositional party against fascism wasnt a sorry pile of tears right now.

I mean, not intentionally you don't. You don't think what you're saying is a lie, because you believe it. There's nothing admirable about zealotry though, whether it's for religion or your particular political persuasion. Couldn't care less about the "Democrats are the ones who are emotional actually" argument, cause I never said they aren't emotional. Trying to teach Leftists what governing is is like trying to herd blind and retarded lemmings, and that's definitely emotionally taxing.

It does not.

If we make the same god damn point and one of us is right, then BOTH of us are right. I'm not responding to the rest of the paragraph because it's fucking pedantry.

I propose winning elections by fighting for the right thing even if it might be harder to win. And if a candidate like that loses, I am not running around blaming everyone who didnt vote them and wishing them ill. Instead, that is the time to build on the trust you earned fighting for the right thing with the right means. You propose winning elections by tactically fighting for bullshit with questionable means and then still lose, and after that you accuse everyone else except your failed tactic.

No, I propose winning elections by showing people which political party/leaders are responsible for the bad lives they're living right now so that they'll avoid that next time. And you can't say that doesn't work, because 2020 was proof that it does. Trump was blamed for Covid and decisions around how to handle it. By the time he got the vaccine ready his voterbase were poisoned against the idea of vaccines and he didn't get any political capital for it. American voters wanted something new. Even if it wasn't someone that they were confident were the best for the job, they were someone OTHER than the one that had royally shit the bed over the current presidential run.

The 2024 election was a repeat of 2020: people were afraid and angry (notice the two emotions that have been a theme of my responses lately?) over prices, over not being able to own homes, over not being able to fill their car with fuel, over medical expenses, and a number of other financial reasons. They wanted someone to fix it. Trump said he'll fix it. So America gave him a chance to fix it.

The next president of the United States will be a candidate that can make Americans feel like all the shitty things of the past 4 years leading up to the election can be fixed by someone trying something new.

"But why are you attacking people who abstained from voting for Kamala or voted for Trump, if you know they're not the reason Kamala lost?" would be the correct question to ask me, which you've failed to ask in 3 separate replies unless I missed it. The answer? Because these people held the future of their fellow Americans hostage to try to get their way and it makes me sick. Sick, because they knew she was better than Trump, but decided better than Trump wasn't good enough, and that it was better to risk everything on a guaranteed to fail strategy. Even if we'd won the election, these people would be scum due to the lack of empathy required to be so comfortable with throwing away someone else's future.

Someone relying on you to have their back.

Remember the last post you hearted that I made responding to kckk? About the compassion I have for immigrants? Illegal immigrants? The people I'm attacking will swear on their mother's grave that they care for these people... but where was that care when they had to choose between supporting Kamala or virtue signaling about Palestine?

They'd say the same about a woman's right to abortion. Or the homeless epidemic. Or the trans genocide. Or the attack on DEI.

I've laughed at/attacked:

Latino Trump voters whose relatives have been deported

Leftists who didn't want to vote for a genocidal presidential candidate who now has a president that is claiming that he's going to take Gaza from Palestinians

Muslims and Palestinian Americans that either didn't vote for Kamala or voted for Trump (for the same reason) who are about to sit and watch Gaza leveled and turned into a resort

Blue collar workers that wanted prices for food to go down, now having to pay 11 dollars for a dozen eggs

Trump supporters who believe Trump cares about making life better for them, only to finally find out what tariffs mean for their wallets

I have not attacked Democrats because they voted for the candidate who would not have done these things. Protecting people from the worst-case scenario does make you the Good candidate. There was a Good candidate. Just not a Perfect candidate.

 

[shionoro]

No, I propose winning elections by showing people which political party/leaders are responsible for the bad lives they're living right now so that they'll avoid that next time. And you can't say that doesn't work, because 2020 was proof that it does. Trump was blamed for Covid and decisions around how to handle it. By the time he got the vaccine ready his voterbase were poisoned against the idea of vaccines and he didn't get any political capital for it. American voters wanted something new. Even if it wasn't someone that they were confident were the best for the job, they were someone OTHER than the one that had royally shit the bed over the current presidential run.

The 2024 election was a repeat of 2020: people were afraid and angry (notice the two emotions that have been a theme of my responses lately?) over prices, over not being able to own homes, over not being able to fill their car with fuel, over medical expenses, and a number of other financial reasons. They wanted someone to fix it. Trump said he'll fix it. So America gave him a chance to fix it.

The next president of the United States will be a candidate that can make Americans feel like all the shitty things of the past 4 years leading up to the election can be fixed by someone trying something new.

"But why are you attacking people who abstained from voting for Kamala or voted for Trump, if you know they're not the reason Kamala lost?" would be the correct question to ask me, which you've failed to ask in 3 separate replies unless I missed it. The answer? Because these people held the future of their fellow Americans hostage to try to get their way and it makes me sick. Sick, because they knew she was better than Trump, but decided better than Trump wasn't good enough, and that it was better to risk everything on a guaranteed to fail strategy. Even if we'd won the election, these people would be scum due to the lack of empathy required to be so comfortable with throwing away someone else's future.

Someone relying on you to have their back.

Remember the last post you hearted that I made responding to kckk? About the compassion I have for immigrants? Illegal immigrants? The people I'm attacking will swear on their mother's grave that they care for these people... but where was that care when they had to choose between supporting Kamala or virtue signaling about Palestine?

They'd say the same about a woman's right to abortion. Or the homeless epidemic. Or the trans genocide. Or the attack on DEI.

I've laughed at/attacked:

Latino Trump voters whose relatives have been deported

Leftists who didn't want to vote for a genocidal presidential candidate who now has a president that is claiming that he's going to take Gaza from Palestinians

Muslims and Palestinian Americans that either didn't vote for Kamala or voted for Trump (for the same reason) who are about to sit and watch Gaza leveled and turned into a resort

Blue collar workers that wanted prices for food to go down, now having to pay 11 dollars for a dozen eggs

Trump supporters who believe Trump cares about making life better for them, only to finally find out what tariffs mean for their wallets

I have not attacked Democrats because they voted for the candidate who would not have done these things. Protecting people from the worst-case scenario does make you the Good candidate. There was a Good candidate. Just not a Perfect candidate.

It worked 2020 to which end tho? It was a very close election and Trump got VERY unlucky with covid (chances are he would not have lost without that rare event). And now trump is back again even tho he radicalized himself. We certainly didn't see America turning away from Trump. If the best you can hope for is another national crisis to push Trump out of office just for the next democrat to fuck it up after one term, then i am asking you whether you think Biden was able to offset all that Trump has broken. I don't think that happened.

Remember the last post you hearted that I made responding to kckk? About the compassion I have for immigrants? Illegal immigrants? The people I'm attacking will swear on their mother's grave that they care for these people... but where was that care when they had to choose between supporting Kamala or virtue signaling about Palestine?

Let's be very clear here. Most of the people who identify as anything close to a leftist or remotely care about gaza, immigrants or lgbtq people vote blue. You can see this in this threat. At least as far as @xi0 and @M3J go, they hated Bidens guts so much that we had arguments in which I defended Biden and the dems about the IRS reform against them. And they still voted democrats, just like most other people who criticized the democrat approach to Israel did. There were people who decided otherwise, but they are a minority inside a minority and the only thing democrats will accomplish by constantly griefing about them (or other groups who abstained) is embarassing themselves and becoming less trustworthy for even those people who voted them reluctantly.

Democrats handle criticism abysmally. Especially when it came to Gaza. They remind me of estranged parents that constantly ask why their children have left them but will shout at their children the second they try to explain it. And that is my problem with what you are doing here and what you are proposing. You are accusing the groups that you should actually start to listen to, to understand why they didn't vote who you wanted them to vote for. If you are not going listen and not going to understand them, you sure as hell are not going to have a party that is strong enough to stand up to fascism.

And then you are sitting there in 4, in 8, in 12 years when there are no free elections anymore and you still ask yourself when finally it will get "bad enough". Just because you refuse to listen to the people who care enough to tell you what the silent majority would have needed to get out and vote.

 

[M3J]

I don't think "Vote Blue No Matter Who" Dems like ninjabot understand accountability or can do critical thinking.


Anyway:

If this is true, This is what I and other Palestinian supporters were saying/theorizing - that Israel had IOF kill their own citizens so they could blame Hamas. Chalk that up to another lie from Israel to justify a genocide. shocking.

 

[shionoro]

I think this article sums up the situation really well:

âIn a real sense, US democracy has diedâ: how Trump is emulating Hungaryâs Orbán

Trump has moved to gut the federal government, fire critics and reward allies – a path similar to ‘would-be dictators’ like Orbán, experts say

www.theguardian.com

Democrats such as Murphy are determined to fight back but, being in the minority, have few tools at their disposal. Republicans have mostly appeared content to cede their own power. The party’s fealty to Trump was demonstrated again this week when senators in committee voted to move forward with the nominations of Tulsi Gabbard and Robert F Kennedy Jr as director of national intelligence and health secretary respectively – two mavericks whose selection would have been unthinkable just a year ago.

Charlie Sykes, a conservative author and broadcaster, said: “There had been some lingering optimism that at least some Republican senators would draw the line at some of the more absurd Maga appointees but that hasn’t happened. That also demoralises any potential opposition.”
He added: “What Elon Musk represents is basically a hostile takeover of the government and the complete indifference of the Republican Congress to the ways that it is being stripped of its core constitutional functions is demoralising. It is this mood that nothing can be done or will be done to stop them. You’re seeing that in the business community, in the political community, and it’s a fundamental loss of faith in the rule of law and in our system of checks and balances.”

One guardrail is holding for now. Courts have temporarily blocked Trump’s efforts to end birthright citizenship, cull the government workforce and freeze federal funding. Even so, commentators warn that the blatant disregard for congressional authority, erosion of civil service protections and concentration of power in the executive branch pose a grave threat.
Larry Jacobs, director of the Center for the Study of Politics and Governance at the University of Minnesota, said: “You’d have to have your eyes fully closed not to be deeply concerned and outraged about the vacuum that Donald Trump is operating in now. In a real sense, US democracy has died this month. It doesn’t mean it’s dead for the long term but at this moment the idea of an accountable representative system, as the framers of the constitution wrote it, is no longer present.”

It is astonishing how in this second Term of Trump, every insitution and also the republican party just has rolled on their backs instantly. That is why I do not think that this is the time to blame each other, but to look what opposition can be mustered up. What topics get people on street and who are leaders on these topics that people can rally behind?

 

[kkck]

Looking at the past 8 years... It's never been the time to be critical of democrats. When the race was between hillary and trump trump was too big a threat to not get in line. Democrats lost that one. When the race was between biden and trump it was also not the time to be critical of democrats because removing trump was too important. Then bidens presidency came and 4 years after trump was as big a threat as ever and sheer apathy at a potato and kamala got trump the presidency. Of course, it was also not the time to be critical of democrats. The fact is that it's never going to be a good time for democrats to find an agenda, message and a soul but at some point they have to do it anyways or the next 8 years are going to be more of the same.

 

[shionoro]

Looking at the past 8 years... It's never been the time to be critical of democrats. When the race was between hillary and trump trump was too big a threat to not get in line. Democrats lost that one. When the race was between biden and trump it was also not the time to be critical of democrats because removing trump was too important. Then bidens presidency came and 4 years after trump was as big a threat as ever and sheer apathy at a potato and kamala got trump the presidency. Of course, it was also not the time to be critical of democrats. The fact is that it's never going to be a good time for democrats to find an agenda, message and a soul but at some point they have to do it anyways or the next 8 years are going to be more of the same.

I would say that all of these times were good times to be critical of democrats, because criticism can make you stronger if you listen. Sometimes it is inevitable to have conflict about things, even inside a party. But I feel like there are a lot of young, politicized people who could carry democrats over the finish line if Democrats start to actually get in touch with them and listen. And the same goes for republican leaning voters who are still afraid of Trump.

The first thing that needs to be done for democrats is to stop thinking they are smarter than their voters and have to manipulate them to get votes.

 

[ninjabot]

It worked 2020 to which end tho? It was a very close election and Trump got VERY unlucky with covid (chances are he would not have lost without that rare event). And now trump is back again even tho he radicalized himself. We certainly didn't see America turning away from Trump. If the best you can hope for is another national crisis to push Trump out of office just for the next democrat to fuck it up after one term, then i am asking you whether you think Biden was able to offset all that Trump has broken. I don't think that happened.

The only end that matters when dealing with fascism is to keep the fascists out of power. Don't lose sight imagining some magical paradise where all of your political aspirations are achieved, because it's impossible in this political climate. Realistic advocacy instead of pipe dreams.

Not to offset what Trump has broken. Not to fix everything. To keep everything afloat until it CAN be fixed. In increments. Or at least that's what was necessary before he started using rapid-fire executive orders. But those can be reversed with other executive orders.

As for what Biden did: https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/biden-promise-tracker/?ruling=true

Biden has kept 28% of his promises, and broke 3%.
Compromised on 10%
32% was stalled
and 24% are in the works.

I linked that back in October so I'm sure things have changed but this is why I don't care about your criticism. It's not constructive and ignores the attempts made by Democrats in order to maintain a constant bitchfest about them not being perfect.

Let's be very clear here. Most of the people who identify as anything close to a leftist or remotely care about gaza, immigrants or lgbtq people vote blue. You can see this in this threat. At least as far as @xi0 and @M3J go, they hated Bidens guts so much that we had arguments in which I defended Biden and the dems about the IRS reform against them. And they still voted democrats,

xi0 didn't vote for Kamala, and leftists don't generally vote.

Also, Leftists don't need to trust me for them to vote Democrat, I need them to be afraid of destroying their lives and the lives of minorities around them. This isn't a "Us vs. Them" argument. This is a "Them vs. Them" argument.

Looking at the past 8 years... It's never been the time to be critical of democrats. When the race was between hillary and trump trump was too big a threat to not get in line. Democrats lost that one. When the race was between biden and trump it was also not the time to be critical of democrats because removing trump was too important. Then bidens presidency came and 4 years after trump was as big a threat as ever and sheer apathy at a potato and kamala got trump the presidency. Of course, it was also not the time to be critical of democrats. The fact is that it's never going to be a good time for democrats to find an agenda, message and a soul but at some point they have to do it anyways or the next 8 years are going to be more of the same.

I asked you what Democrats should do before the election was over and I distinctly remember you saying you don't know. I asked this after several posts of you complaining about Democrats. Criticism is fine when it's constructive, but an example of constructive criticism is to say "this isn't working, but perhaps this thing could work instead, and here's why."

 

[kkck]

I asked you what Democrats should do before the election was over and I distinctly remember you saying you don't know. I asked this after several posts of you complaining about Democrats. Criticism is fine when it's constructive, but an example of constructive criticism is to say "this isn't working, but perhaps this thing could work instead, and here's why."

Hmmm, I forget, wasn't that in relation to kamala's bid at the presidency? Because otherwise there's a lot of things the party could do in the span of months or years to change. They could start by rounding up their marketing department and whoever does their internal pooling and catapult them to mexico. Then they could up their messaging, specially on the internet where republicans are ahead for some unconscionable reason. Acknowledging that the stock market doing well is not the same thing as the country doing well would be nice. Taking economic policy positions that prioritize the middle class would be nice.