American Politics

[ninjabot]

Really? I was struggling to put it into words and I just googled "how does media portray positive masculinity". And it felt spot on with how men are occasionally portrayed at times. Frigging weird is right.

My bad, I thought you typed social media, not media. Forget my confusion. It's spot on.

 

[xi0]

I'll never understand the people rallying against raising taxes for people who make 1000x what they make.

 

[M3J]

This is one of the biggest problems. Most people don't understand how the rich and corporations get around paying taxes.
My friend is a business owner and thinks his business is currently falling victim to Biden's tax plan - Biden did not have a tax plan. He's on Trump's plan.

That messaging has always been there and few disagree with "tax the rich" but the problem is a lot of "moderate" voters are moderate because they have no interest beyond scratching the surface in politics.

I'll never understand the people rallying against raising taxes for people who make 1000x what they make.

too lazy to unquote this but xi0 answered it. A lot of poor people see themselves as future wealthy people, even though they're much closer to becoming homeless than becoming wealthy. In their minds, if they vote to increase the tax on the wealthy and close all loopholes, it'll affect them down the line once they become millionaires.

I think that is why the topic of trust is so important to me, as it is required to actually get close and talk to people. A lot of people who are on the right can easily understand why a wealth tax is good if they sit down with someone who can explain it well and kindly. And the same goes for many social issues. The problem is to make that talk happen.

In my experience, even someone who starts the conversation by "i am unhappy about immigrants stealing my job" can very quickly see your perspective if you explain without judgement how their landlord screws them over and what you'd like to do about it. They won't instantly become a bleeding heart liberal, but they still might vote for you if they trust that you are not lying to them and have their best interest in mind. Because that topic is existential to them and supersedes a lot of the rest.

Have you seen or come across any people on the right who supported a wealth tax? Or if a thorough and excellent explanation made them realize immigrants aren't the problem, but companies exploiting people are? Because from what I've experienced, nothing convinced the ones I"ve talked to and have seen be talked to that taxing the wealthy and businesses made sense, nor did they think immigrants were blameless.

In fact, many who whined about "illegal immigrants" not paying taxes were the same ones who were okay with the wealthy and businesses exploiting laws and loopholes to avoid paying taxes or paying as little of it as possible.

 

[shionoro]

Have you seen or come across any people on the right who supported a wealth tax? Or if a thorough and excellent explanation made them realize immigrants aren't the problem, but companies exploiting people are? Because from what I've experienced, nothing convinced the ones I"ve talked to and have seen be talked to that taxing the wealthy and businesses made sense, nor did they think immigrants were blameless.

In fact, many who whined about "illegal immigrants" not paying taxes were the same ones who were okay with the wealthy and businesses exploiting laws and loopholes to avoid paying taxes or paying as little of it as possible.

Yes, it absolutely happens, at least around here. Same for other topics. Generally, you need to start with an existential threat that the person wants to talk about. A rightwing voter might be socially moulded into disliking taxes, but he is still going to be afraid of losing his flat or cost of living or something like that. If you thoroughly explain why that particular problem he has can be tracked down to wealthy people robbing him dry, he is usually receptive to what you say and furious about it. Doesn't mean he will unlearn all the propaganda he internalized, but that talk still goes a long way. he knows that for this issue, I have talked to him and offered a solution and thorough explanation without judgement. That is actually able to sway even rightwing voters if it is done enough.

The problem is that most of the time, these conversations happen online or in "fighting spaces" in which people just shout at each other. You gotta be an ally to them and believably express (and mean) that you are on their side and think that their issue is important. And explain why you think your solution is benefitting them more than what is done right now.

 

[M3J]

The thing is, I've seen people better with words and arguing than I fail to get that across to the right, and especially to Trump supporters. It's been like talking to a wall, except the human walls vote against their own self-interest. I can understand me not doing a good job, but when others that even go the extra mile of looking like an ally fail, I dunno.

But then again, maybe Europe is different from USA. Or west Europe anyway?

 

[shionoro]

@M3J We basically stole that tactic from the US, that whole organizing thing was invented by the civil rights movement. So i am pretty sure it is going to work in the US as it is universial. The big thing is that you need to avoid "arguing". The second it is a confrontation, all the reflexes that fox news taught people are going to kick in.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 20, 2025, Original Post Date: Mar 20, 2025 ---

Aside from Trump openly ignoring court orders, we are looking at an increasing criminalization of dissent.

Scientist 'denied entry to US' after messages critical of Trump found on his phone

The unnamed researcher was on his way to a conference being held near Houston when he was subjected to a random check and his work computer and personal phone searched on 9 March, according to French media.

news.sky.com

A French researcher's phone and laptop was searched when he arrived at an American airport. He had messages criticising Trump in private (chats with collegues) and that is why the FBI opened an investigation against him (that was later dropped) and he was denied entry.

While this is, in its effect, far less vile than the ICE raids, it makes clear in which direction things are headed. Authoritarian countries make being part of the opposition a crime and America is getting there.

Trump is a fascist and his administration wants to make the US into a fascist state. And right now, it is looking good for them.

 

[kkck]

@M3J We basically stole that tactic from the US, that whole organizing thing was invented by the civil rights movement. So i am pretty sure it is going to work in the US as it is universial. The big thing is that you need to avoid "arguing". The second it is a confrontation, all the reflexes that fox news taught people are going to kick in.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 20, 2025, Original Post Date: Mar 20, 2025 ---

Aside from Trump openly ignoring court orders, we are looking at an increasing criminalization of dissent.

Scientist 'denied entry to US' after messages critical of Trump found on his phone

The unnamed researcher was on his way to a conference being held near Houston when he was subjected to a random check and his work computer and personal phone searched on 9 March, according to French media.

news.sky.com

A French researcher's phone and laptop was searched when he arrived at an American airport. He had messages criticising Trump in private (chats with collegues) and that is why the FBI opened an investigation against him (that was later dropped) and he was denied entry.

While this is, in its effect, far less vile than the ICE raids, it makes clear in which direction things are headed. Authoritarian countries make being part of the opposition a crime and America is getting there.

Trump is a fascist and his administration wants to make the US into a fascist state. And right now, it is looking good for them.

Weird. Trump is 100% wonderful. Why would anyone ever be critical of such a perfect world leader? What a weird world we live in.

 

[ninjabot]

That seems pretty tyrannical to me. I'm gonna keep signal boosting the word "tyranny" because of the connotations it holds amongst certain demographics of the US.

 

[shionoro]

They are coming for the people without any protection first and move forward from there. After the refugees and people on Visa are in jail, deported or enslaved, I am pretty sure that the next move will be to focus on other welfare receivers and seriously try to smash the unions by banning them.

 

[kkck]

Jailing or enslaving? Trump wants to kick people out of the country. Enslaving or jailing folk is pretty much the opposite of that. Add to that, he has so far pretty much free reign to deport anyone so I doubt there's any motivation to repeat the 2016 term border fiasco. What he is doing has already gotten border crossings to historic lows. It would definitely be very hurtful all over if he messes with already inadequate visa programs though.

 

[shionoro]

Jailing or enslaving? Trump wants to kick people out of the country. Enslaving or jailing folk is pretty much the opposite of that. Add to that, he has so far pretty much free reign to deport anyone so I doubt there's any motivation to repeat the 2016 term border fiasco. What he is doing has already gotten border crossings to historic lows. It would definitely be very hurtful all over if he messes with already inadequate visa programs though.

There a dozens of millions of non-citizens in the US. Nobody is going to deport them all because some of them are useful for cheap labor. But they will lose any legal protection. Any of them could be deported or jailed at any time (and there he can be forced to work, hence enslaved).

After all, one fifth of the nazi german workforce near the end of the war consisted of non-german workers, many (but not all) of those being forced to work.

Right now, Fox News is bringing up the death penalty when talking about people burning teslas:

 

[M3J]

@M3J We basically stole that tactic from the US, that whole organizing thing was invented by the civil rights movement. So i am pretty sure it is going to work in the US as it is universial. The big thing is that you need to avoid "arguing". The second it is a confrontation, all the reflexes that fox news taught people are going to kick in.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 20, 2025, Original Post Date: Mar 20, 2025 ---

Aside from Trump openly ignoring court orders, we are looking at an increasing criminalization of dissent.

Scientist 'denied entry to US' after messages critical of Trump found on his phone

The unnamed researcher was on his way to a conference being held near Houston when he was subjected to a random check and his work computer and personal phone searched on 9 March, according to French media.

news.sky.com

A French researcher's phone and laptop was searched when he arrived at an American airport. He had messages criticising Trump in private (chats with collegues) and that is why the FBI opened an investigation against him (that was later dropped) and he was denied entry.

While this is, in its effect, far less vile than the ICE raids, it makes clear in which direction things are headed. Authoritarian countries make being part of the opposition a crime and America is getting there.

Trump is a fascist and his administration wants to make the US into a fascist state. And right now, it is looking good for them.

Seems that the Civil Rights Movement didn't work, all it did was hide the racism for decades until Trump normalized it again. During the Movement even, Black people and white allies were attacked and even killed despite being peaceful. I don't think that'll work too well, especially in this kind of environment that Trump fostered.

 

[shionoro]

Seems that the Civil Rights Movement didn't work, all it did was hide the racism for decades until Trump normalized it again. During the Movement even, Black people and white allies were attacked and even killed despite being peaceful. I don't think that'll work too well, especially in this kind of environment that Trump fostered.

By that logic, no movement ever worked well historically as there is no utopia yet. But this strategy does work and successes can be seen both at the level of swaying elections and on the level of making a civil society more resilient to attacks from the right.

It is definitely an effort that pays off. People are so starved for genuine connections that building up a movement or party that is accountable and approachable with real problems just supersedes all that online nonsense.

 

[kkck]

There a dozens of millions of non-citizens in the US. Nobody is going to deport them all because some of them are useful for cheap labor. But they will lose any legal protection. Any of them could be deported or jailed at any time (and there he can be forced to work, hence enslaved).

After all, one fifth of the nazi german workforce near the end of the war consisted of non-german workers, many (but not all) of those being forced to work.

Right now, Fox News is bringing up the death penalty when talking about people burning teslas:

I mean, I'm not going to take the stance that deporting non citizens is wrong. Jailing them of course is problematic though I don't see trump having any significant appetite for that (yet). It'd definitely be deeply problematic if trump does something to mess with already inadequate visa programs. Personally I don't think trump thinks these folk would be worth free labor, let alone "cheap" labor though we'll see how that works out.

 

[shionoro]

I mean, I'm not going to take the stance that deporting non citizens is wrong. Jailing them of course is problematic though I don't see trump having any significant appetite for that (yet). It'd definitely be deeply problematic if trump does something to mess with already inadequate visa programs. Personally I don't think trump thinks these folk would be worth free labor, let alone "cheap" labor though we'll see how that works out.

Trump is very much a friend of the private prison system: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-w...-trumps-victory-means-private-prison-industry and ICE is connected to that, as they help to detain ICE prisoners:

Two key players in the industry are especially well positioned to thrive under a second Trump term. GEO Group noted in its recent annual report that U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement contracts accounts for 43 percent of its revenues. CoreCivic reports that 30 percent of its revenue came from ICE contracts in its most recent annual report. These companies seem well aware that greater gains lie ahead. As GEO Group Executive Chairman George Zoley said on an earnings call on November 7, “The GEO Group was built for this unique moment in our . . . country’s history and the opportunities that it will bring.”

One less obvious but still important benefit is that GEO Group’s and CoreCivic’s transportation subsidiaries are also likely to secure more contracts with the federal government if large-scale deportation efforts move forward. Generally speaking, deportation isn’t an immediate process — many people navigating the vast U.S. immigration infrastructure will need to be transported between facilities and to court hearings.GEO Group’s CEO acknowledged the potential of their transport services on the earnings call, noting, “We believe we have the capabilities to expand the provision of these services to assist ICE in moving several hundreds of thousands of additional individuals if needed.”

Other aspects of the Trump administration’s proposed law enforcement agenda could similarly drive profits for private prison companies. When it comes to “law and order,” Trump’s campaign platform declares that his administration will “increase penalties for assaults on law enforcement, put violent offenders and career criminals behind bars, and surge federal prosecutors and the National Guard into high-crime communities.” Currently, the Department of Justice can’t legally contract directly with for-profit firms to house people awaiting trial or convicted of crimes. But that is most probably about to change.

Detainees are a source of income and a ressource. Deporting them symbolically is one thing, but you also want to keep them in the pipeline and detain them forever before doing so and use them for cheap labor.

There is no plan to have no immigrants in the country, at least not any time soon: https://idahocapitalsun.com/2025/02...on-firm-for-major-immigrant-detention-center/

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement awards private prison company 15-year contract to detain 1,000 immigrants in New Jersey

A 15-year contract. They know they are in for the long game, why get rid of a system that creates slaveworkers, makes money for the citizen-opression (formerly law enforcement) sector and instills fear? That would not make sense.

 

[kkck]

Trump is very much a friend of the private prison system: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-w...-trumps-victory-means-private-prison-industry and ICE is connected to that, as they help to detain ICE prisoners:

Detainees are a source of income and a ressource. Deporting them symbolically is one thing, but you also want to keep them in the pipeline and detain them forever before doing so and use them for cheap labor.

Sure, but what you are saying is still basically speculation. Nothing has happened yet that suggests trump or even his supporters have an appetite for jailing 30 million migrants on taxpayer dollars.

 

[shionoro]

Sure, but what you are saying is still basically speculation. Nothing has happened yet that suggests trump or even his supporters have an appetite for jailing 30 million migrants on taxpayer dollars.

I said deporting, jailing and enslaving. Enslaving entails more than jailing. Someone who has no rights and is just used as workforce or a political chip to play is enslaved in my book. You might disagree with that, but you cannot say "nothing has happened yet".

Right now, the US moves rapidly to ignore rights from non-us-citizens and also take them away wherever they can and move with as much curelty as they can. Trump is not going to jail every migrant, but he is sure as hell creating a situation in which every migrant who dares to not play along can be jailed or deported overnight. And even those who do play along but might be more lucrative if jailed are going to get sacked. That is where we are moving.

 

[kkck]

I said deporting, jailing and enslaving. Enslaving entails more than jailing. Someone who has no rights and is just used as workforce or a political chip to play is enslaved in my book. You might disagree with that, but you cannot say "nothing has happened yet".

Right now, the US moves rapidly to ignore rights from non-us-citizens and also take them away wherever they can and move with as much curelty as they can. Trump is not going to jail every migrant, but he is sure as hell creating a situation in which every migrant who dares to not play along can be jailed or deported overnight. And even those who do play along but might be more lucrative if jailed are going to get sacked. That is where we are moving.

Well, no, I said " Nothing has happened yet that suggests trump or even his supporters have an appetite for jailing 30 million migrants on taxpayer dollars. ". Which is drastically different from saying "nothing has happened yet" with not further elaboration. By that logic you can argue literally anything. You can speculate if you want but it's just that, speculation. And very deeply into the unhinged side of it (for now at least).

Most countries in the world simply deport people who enter illegally or overstay what they are legally allowed. Which, you know, is normal and sane. The US is one of the few places in the world where this is controversial. The issue the US has now is that half the country has already gone mad over the issue after decades of ineffective policy making. That said, I don't think trump's policy is adequate or sufficient (I've talked about how sane policy would remove very real incentives to illegal immigration while it would encourage legal migration which the US absolutely needs) but I won't hold it against them to simply swiftly deport people.

 

[shionoro]

Well, no, I said " Nothing has happened yet that suggests trump or even his supporters have an appetite for jailing 30 million migrants on taxpayer dollars. ". Which is drastically different from saying "nothing has happened yet" with not further elaboration. By that logic you can argue literally anything. You can speculate if you want but it's just that, speculation. And very deeply into the unhinged side of it (for now at least).

But it is clear tho that Trump moves to take all legal security from non-US-citizens to be able to jail or deport any of them any time he pleases, no matter the circumstances.

Most countries in the world simply deport people who enter illegally or overstay what they are legally allowed. Which, you know, is normal and sane. The US is one of the few places in the world where this is controversial. The issue the US has now is that half the country has already gone mad over the issue after decades of ineffective policy making. That said, I don't think trump's policy is adequate or sufficient (I've talked about how sane policy would remove very real incentives to illegal immigration while it would encourage legal migration which the US absolutely needs) but I won't hold it against them to simply swiftly deport people.

That is not true. Deportations are controversial in at least every single western nation. "Entering illegally" is in itself a questionable concept for most countries, because the refugee convention of Geneva, which most countries (barring the US) have signed states that a refugee cannot be punished for nonlegally entering a country.

And honestly, western nations tend to do it as it suits them, just like the US. Italian rightwingers love to dish out against Africans, but who do you think is plucking fruit and vegetables on their fields? Sure as hell are not legal residents of Italy, I can tell you that. And the same goes for a lot of US labor. These people are taken for cheap labor, but they are not given any protection and claimed to be illegal whenever it suits America.

For the majority of countries (barring Australia), the US is an example of a brutal deportation and border security system that rightwingers in european countries envy. You will be hardpressed to find a european country that just has someone like mahmoud khalil jailed without even being convicted of a crime. You will also be hardpressed to find a european country that moves along as brutally as the US with deportations or border control.

There is nothing sane about the US policy on immigration and refugees, not for America, certainly not from a humanitarian standpoint. And we didnt even start talking about how the US did create a lot of the refugee streams by regime changes and other kinds of foreign attacks.

 

[M3J]

By that logic, no movement ever worked well historically as there is no utopia yet. But this strategy does work and successes can be seen both at the level of swaying elections and on the level of making a civil society more resilient to attacks from the right.

It is definitely an effort that pays off. People are so starved for genuine connections that building up a movement or party that is accountable and approachable with real problems just supersedes all that online nonsense.

I'm not talking about utopia, I'm talking about the Civil Rights Movement's effect. It did a lot, but it also forced racism to be subtle and appear in other ways. I fear we may be too far gone now, given the way right have been behaving.