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Info Claymore Alternative Translation and Clarification

Discussion in 'Claymore' started by Utsune, Nov 14, 2012.

  1. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    That helps a lot , i never fully understood Roxannes name, but that makes sense.

    So to clarify Dae is saying that the beings he brought forth at that time are NOT really Roxanne , Cassandra, and Hysteria but new beings who look/borrowed the appearance of those warriors pre death body's ?
    And he flat out said you can not bring back someone who has already died?

    and as i am kind of slow dose
    Mean "Roxanne of love and hate" or just Roxanne.

    i thank you a million, because i had always wondered what Dae ment by that.
     
  2. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    That bit is a good point, because I think it's kinda open to interpretation, or at least as far as we know, it could either be completely different things that use the flesh of the former No. 1s, *or* that they are the former No.1 themselves with a completely different 'nature.' If you get what I mean... In any case, I'm hoping we would get more clues when Cassy gets dealt with in the next few chapters... Since she's finally getting serious now, that should reveal more about her current state :D

    And yes, the whole thing "愛憎のロクサーヌ" means "Roxanne of Love and Hate."
     
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  3. Detox

    Detox Registered User

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    Well, this is nice, all the Claymore forums I used to hang out died but it's great to find more people discussing claymore, specially about the translations that's the most problematic topic haha.

    Personally what I would like to clarify my doubts about Chapter 139 Page 15 , there Dietrich and Galatea are talking and it seems that Galatea points out that they once were the same number of warrior, before inviting the other one to drink together, now that would imply that either Galatea was Number 8 , which seems unlikely for the "Eye", or that Dietrich was once number 3 , given that on Chapter 102 page one she says that she was once demoted for failing a mission , the only known mission she ever failed was retrieving/Killing Galatea, besides she is still referred as number 8 from then on which would indicate that she was demoted from a higher rank, on the same page the text also says that she still has the power close to that of a high single digit.

    Now there are other "evidences" that would indicate she formerly was a higher number, she being previously assigned to a region closer to the org. before being demoted to the south, and Miria signaling half of the 6 six warriors that fought against Hysteria being of rank 1-5 power level , which would mean Helen, Deneve and (given previous info) most likely Dietrich.

    Now most sites I've look into, including the Claymore Wiki acknowledge this and put her on former number 3, however on another site called "New claymore wiki" they claim that those translations were incorrect and she is solely number 8.

    So what I would like to know is, what is really the text saying on ch. 139 pg.15 and ch. 102 pg. 1, in order to determine if she really was number 3, sorry if my post was too long just to ask that but I really think it's best to explain myself and additional info x)
     
  4. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    I am sure utsune will be able to help you out

    Welcome to the forum.

    Btw love the avatar picture, i love Once upon a time. Hook is cool, but i have always been fond of the "crocodile"
     
  5. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Welcome to the forum :D

    For Chapter 139 Page 15, I would recommend Gernot's translation:
    "We have a long history, but we once were warriors with the same number"
    (長い因縁だったが元同じナンバー同士)
    (Wild guess, I suppose you read the same translation as well? :p )

    This translation is the best English can do; the literal translation would be more like: "There was a long history, but former same-number fellow/together..." Japanese doesn't often use personal pronouns (I, you, he/she/it,) so the "we were" in the translation is only implied. ("We" is implied through "same-number," and "were" (past tense) is implied through "former.")

    Chapter 102 Page 1, again I'm using Gernot's translation since it is as literal as it gets.
    "I was demoted for failing my mission, but
    I still have power close to that of a high single digit."
    (任務失敗で降格はさせられたが
    これでも一桁上位ナンバーに近い力を持っていてな)

    I have no idea what this "New Claymore wiki" site is, but even Google Translate can prove to you she is demoted, lol. I've had a looked at the site since you've mentioned it, they pick on the term 降格 being relegation rather than demotion, which I think is highly inaccurate. If you want to be very literal about the Japanese, 降=lower, 格=rank/status/rating, and even one of the best (subjective) Japanese-English dictionary on the Internet says it's demotion. :oh

    They also mention Diet and Gala sharing the same generation number rather than rank number. This is entirely wrong lol. (The more and more I read this, the whole thing feels like a troll wiki to me...) Anyways, ナンバー means "number" and you even pronounce it "NAMBAA" so it's definitely saying number. The term ナンバー is always always always used in the manga to refer to ranks. Has been that way for 143 Chapters. Generation/group number uses a different word: 期 (period.) If Dietrich were referring to "same gen number/period," she would be saying 同期/ 同世代 instead, which literally means "same period/ same generation," and that is not what she says.

    (Generation/group/period is yet another confusing term, but explainable if you're critically literal about this. For the purpose of this query I'll leave it for another time.)

    I feel harsh for saying this but from an educative perspective I suggest people should stay away from the Claymore new wiki. Talks of Japanese are highly inaccurate and misleading, while the interpretations contain too much bias. For the sake of reliable information and Japanese knowledge in general, this wiki certainly isn't providing much. Of course, you may read it just like any other opinions you see in forum...


    Anyways, with this there are a few reasons (my personal interpretation) as to why they were both No.3 instead of No.8:

    At this point, Dietrich is No.8 and Galatea is former No.3, I suppose if they were once number 8, Dietrich might have phrased it another way (something like: You once held the same number as I do.)

    Unless Galatea got demoted to No.8, it is unlikely Dietrich would be referring to her past ranks (or even know about her past ranks.) To be able to say "same-number fellow" I would like to think Dietrich is referring to their most 'glorious' rank. If Galatea really got demoted and Dietrich was referring to Galatea's No.8, then it would sound as if she's insulting her, which wouldn't make too much sense since she's the one wanting to go out for a drink out of respect.

    Though it is not impossible Galatea is demoted, the few solid pieces of evidence we've been shown:
    - Dietrich once was high single digit
    - Dietrich was once tasked with tracking down Galatea
    - Clarice/Miata were tasked with Dietrich's mission instead (No.8 at that time, i.e. after her demotion)
    - Dietrich said Galatea and her went way back, and they had the same number

    ...they all point towards a No.3 Dietrich. It would be pretty bad story-telling if now we were suddenly told that Galatea actually got demoted before she deserted.

    And of course, plus all the reasons you have listed as well.


    Not sorry for a long post haha...
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
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  6. Detox

    Detox Registered User

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    Thnks for the welcomes!.

    About the translations, I see, thank you!, that was quick haha, and yeah, my little knowledge of japanese makes me realize your explanations makes more sense, also, yeah there are a bunch of reasons why Dietrich seems to be higher number, probably the most important is she having knowledge of a bunch of stuff like the Abyss feeders that Audrey ignored.

    Even so, I thought Galatea was the one asking Dietrich to share a drink haha , it's hard to notice sometimes in manga who says what, I always have that problem. Let's hope it's not a death-flag for either of them though =P

    Ty, Rumple is my favorite char actually!, but I think Hook's got the best quotes of the series.
     
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  7. littleangel

    littleangel Registered User

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    OMG OMG Utsune thank you a bunch.. You just made a great clarification to me.. The idea of them being a different creature doesn't mean a completely different creature, but it is the change of their last moments that made on their personalities! Some people after experiencing a near death situation change and start doing volunteering and helping the poor and stuff like this, while others become more selfish and only care about "living his life" (more or less in a destructive matter). So this is what happens to people from a near death situation. Now think about a real death situation..... Now I believe it would make a huge impact on their personalities as if another person is standing in front of you! Because I always imagined Hysteria as someone who truly cares for his allies but that moment when she was close to awakening she had to cut them else should would die.. This by itself is like a paradox in her personality and would lead to a greater change if she died and did rise from the dead. The one who seems to have a deep attachment to his old personality was Roxanne.. But I agree with BleachFan2010, she may had that desire deep inside to die after all she had done..
     
  8. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    In chapter 110 when they are listing off the number 1's i found a few different translations of there names(and there nicknames) could you name them ?
    And in that same chapter it said "and besides those...there is Cassandra the dust eater"- am i reading to much into it or are they saying that besides those 7 you could also include "cassandra the dust eater"? kinda confused me.

    littleangel i never thought of it that way the "different beings" means death has changed there personality.
    but i refuse to believe Roxanne "Wanted to die for what she had done" yeah even when she was revived she still had the same personality and the same "snobby" like attitude. i also dont think she is dead for good.(but i will save that for my thread :P)
     
  9. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    I'm going to decide on the names completely from my standpoint, and just so you know I'm not going to read any of the English translation beforehand so most of these are unbiased lol.

    流麗のヒステリア = The Fluent/Elegant.Flowing Hysteria (Hi-su-te-ri-a)
    三つ腕のリヒティ = Three-armed Lichty (Ri-hi-ti) (Lichte = リヒテ)
    重剣のクロエ = Heavy-sword Chloe (Ku-ro-e)
    天啓のシスティーナ = Sistine of Revelation (Shi-su-tii-na) (Sistine Chapel = システィーナ礼拝堂) (Revelation/ Divine Oracle; Sistine of the Divine Oracle)
    愛憎のロクサーヌ = Roxanne of Love and Hate
    微笑のテレサに = Teresa of the Faint Smile
    万有のルテーシア = The Universal Lutécia (Ru-teh-shi-a) (or Lutécia of All Things, Lutécia of All Creation) (Lutécia = ルーテシア; notice the name is ルテーシア instead, the "té" is elongated. Not sure why the difference.)
    塵喰いのカサンドラ (Cassandra the Dust-Eater)

    (I've added "The" to some of them so they would sound better.)


    Daae:
    後は… (And then [there was]...)
    塵喰いのカサンドラ (Cassandra the Dust-Eater)
    などいたな… (etc.)

    (後は = next, and then, after)

    I think it's open to interpretation just like the English, and it's absolutely reasonable for you to read into it too much lol. The key phrase "And then" could either mean (1) Cassy is in another league with the "etc. list," or (2) Daae is just giving names as he goes along (so "And then there was Cassy" would be his way of 'making up things to say on the spot' if you get me, i.e. there is no particular meaning to it.) I think the answer lies in the next line, where he says "we can list names forever," suggesting he really is listing names as he goes, but it isn't as random as it seems, because he then says, "that's probably about it for the particularly strong ones." This means exactly word-for-word, suggesting that he has listed those 8 names as they are worth mentioning.

    Once again, this is open to interpretation. To me, I think Daae is kinda like "I'm gonna randomly list some names, whatever comes to mind, the more powerful ones probably come into my mind more likely than the rest........... aaand I've listed a lot now, maybe I should stop, I think that's about it as far as my immediate memory serves because the others aren't worth mentioning so much." But this is just my interpretation, if I hadn't made it clear lol.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
  10. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    sorry to seem redundant.

    But your saying it is probably just him listing them off as he recalls them, but it could also be interpreted that he was listing them off from a "list" in his mind? meaning he listed them off in order of power?(thats what i took from it)
     
  11. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Hmm yeah you're right to point out :oh
    I was meant to say, it's kinda mixture of both. He certainly had Hysteria in mind as one of the more powerful ones, I think you really can't escape naming the most memorable one first (probably because of the Rockwell Hill incident.)

    Also interesting to note Roxanne gets a special comment.

    In any case, I think they really must be something to get listed in those 8, and then saying "the particularly strong ones have probably been covered."

    Btw I notice a mistake in my last post: all these dialogues are not spoken by Daae but by someone else ~.~ I didn't check the previous page properly.
     
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  12. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    Hysteria i honestly would believe to be the strongest

    Yeah it is odd how they give Roxanne a comment, could you translate the comment?( as i have found several different translations)
    I always took it as they were listing them in order of power(known to the Org, as we know Teresa was stronger then hysteria), and the fact that Dae revived the ones he did was because the others were not in good enough shape/he did not have all there pieces, i always wanted to see Sistine of the Divine Oracle she sounds like she could "see the future". i kinda hope we get a extra showing us all the other Number 1's that were mentioned

    do you know who was talking or was it just a random man in black.
    and you are right the fact that they can remember those names after all that time proves that they are powerful.

    Could you also translate from that chapter the "weather or not they can surpass them"(unless its literally the same thing )


    Edit: in chapter 117(i believe) Roxanne said "You who has the strength of a number 5 without that technique" how good of a translation is that.

    And i feel like i should be paying you for all the translation questions i am asking LOL
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  13. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    "酷く手を焼いた"
    酷く = severely, awfully, terribly
    手を焼いた = unable to manage/control, have difficulty with, be at a loss what to do with someone

    Translation: "She was dreadfully difficult to handle"


    I've reread the scene many times, I couldn't figure out who is speaking. The first few names could have been listed by the one who was speaking in the last panel in the previous page. It is possible multiple MiB are speaking throughout the list, i.e. it is possible the MiB shown on Cassy's panel is the one who suggested Cassy's name.


    "超えるかどうかはともかく…"
    "Whether or not they can surpass..."

    Yes it is literally as it is. It's a bit like dumping that idea aside when he starts to list.


    "あなたなんて
    あれをしなきゃ ナンバー5並の実力なのよ"
    lit: "The likes of you
    without that, [your] ability ranks with/at No.5"



    And haha, I'm just doing my part with what I have as a fan of Claymore :)
     
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  14. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    Claymore is awesome :D and you are really helpful with the stuff that may get "lost in translation", you have answered a ton of questions that i had been wondering for awhile

    in chapter 125 Roxanne says "wow, your pretty good at evading" was she talking to Miria or Cassandra?

    and i am wondering how good is the translation of Roxannes "last words" , "Hmph....Keep eating shit for the rest of your life"

    In the same chapter could you please translate Hysterias final words , particularly " Blood and screams fill that hill, there was a strange figure of a warrior who caught and held my eye, amidst the warriors stiff with fear......she alone was faintly smiling"
     
  15. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    I think Roxanne is talking about Cassandra. Two pages before that dialogue (Page 9) we see Cassandra evading her shots very nicely, so I'm guessing she's referring to that.

    The "Keep eating shit" (Page 14) bit is exactly as the Japanese reads. Just for your information, Roxanne is speaking in a very imperative tone (i.e. command.)

    Hysteria's last words: I'll just quote Gernot's translation:
    http://mangahelpers.com/t/gernot/releases/34117

    For the specific part you want, he even explained the literal meaning of the original phrase:
    ---------- Post added at 03:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------

    "strange figure of a single warrior..."

    I would personally put it "single figure of a strange warrior"
    Not a big deal though.

    EDIT: Also, the "There,..." is literally "Within [the massacre]"
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
  16. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    Thanks so much!

    so she is not "insulting" her but rather telling her/commanding her to "keep eating shit"- kinda makes me love Roxanne even more.
     
  17. SSJPabs

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    Reading through this. Great stuff. Thanks!

    ---------- Post added October 14, 2013 at 01:36 AM ---------- Previous post was October 13, 2013 at 05:06 AM ----------

    ENORMOUS EDIT!!!

    So I just want to say a bit about the nature of the 3 revived number 1s. That line about beings who borrowed their pre-death appearance stuck in my mind and since I have a philosophy minor the concept that popped into my mind was a type of philosophical zombie. Okay, so what happened? They had strong bodies lying around (and why were they preserved for so long anyway? You're studying a strong No. 1 for 20+ years?) Dae cut up Priscilla's arm into 3 bits and stuffed them into the stigmata where they revived the 3 of them.

    Assume for a moment that all aspects of being human are physical. A philosophical zombie is physically indistinguishable from a human being but doesn't have sentience. Basically it reacts and talks and acts in all ways as a person would. In this materialist, physical scenario, the way you think is a product of your brain and the way it physically developed in terms of the shape of tissues, how many and where neurons and axons are located, when and how they fire etc. When you die, that biochemical activity ceases.

    What I see happening here is Priscilla's army re-started those bio-chemical processes--force the neurons to fire, the heart to beat etc. through it's demonic power--but because these physical things are happening in the exact same way that they would in the living Roxanne/Cassandra/Hysteria (as a consequence of the structure of their physical brains) they act in large part to how they would have if they were alive. But they are very much not the same person because the power is coming from Prisciilla. In the Roxanne thread I already mentioned that I think Cassandra and Hysteria could have physical brain damage as a consequence of their deaths which could explain why only Roxanne is truly clear headed if she died in a way that left her physical brain more intact.

    Think of it like a fire burning out, but there is still wood to burn. Dae uses a match named Priscilla to relight the fire. It pretty much looks like the same fire to us, it burns the same fuel, but would you call it the same fire?

    So anyhow, that's my theory on that particular comment based on that translation. Maybe this speculation belongs somewhere else.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013
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  18. Number A

    Number A Registered User

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    @SSJPabs. Nice theory, I dig it. I also think of the ZAOs as being existentially akin to the chindi of Navajo mythology. A sort of manifestation of everything messy, unfinished, or warped in the people they were based on.

    Utsune, could you please check the original text of Sid and Deneve's conversation in this scene? I have a suspicion that the translator got it wrong and the person whose life has "become some trifling thing" who is "carrying on recklessly" is Clare not Raki.

    Thanks for this thread, btw.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2014
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  19. Goral

    Goral Registered User

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  20. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Yo welcome to the forum :)

    In this particular translation, on the previous page Deneve says "We couldn't get any reaction from you [..] and you come..." as if the you is referring to Sid. The thing is, in Japanese, personal pronouns are often missing in sentences (I, you, he, she, it, etc.) and in the original there is no specific mentioning of the word "you." She is likely referring to Clare, which would obviously make more sense.

    On the next page (where your query lies,) Sid points out that Clare has taken responsibility in the existence known as "Raki" (panel 2,) and he then suggests "You'd better be careful // In the event this 'regret' is no longer, he/she might start to take his/her life lightly" (panel 3.) The word "he/she" is actually not gender-specific (Sid uses "aitsu" if you're familiar with the term from watching anime.) Developing logically from panel 2 to panel 3, I would say he's referring to "Clare taking her life as some trifling thing," and that you're absolutely correct on your interpretation.

    Finally, the personal pronoun is once again missing on this page, but it would make more sense if she were referring to Clare rather than Raki.

    Hope this makes sense lol, I know it's a mouthful :D
     
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