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Info Claymore Alternative Translation and Clarification

Discussion in 'Claymore' started by Utsune, Nov 14, 2012.

  1. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    Utsune your name should say "heavenly member", instead of "hero member"- because you are a godsend :D.

    While i was looking bad on the tabs on the first page, i noticed something and was wondering if you could help.

    In chapter 117, you explained about the "sharing a pillow" and it being like a old saying/archaic way of saying "sleep together".
    but then you said "i will leave it up to you to think if it was literal or not"

    what i want to know is was it literal or not, is there anything in the translation that makes it sound like anything other then Yagi stating that Roxanne and Cassandra would sleep together(in a sexual manner) without being so upfront about it?

    sorry if it seems like im kicking a dead horse.
     
  2. Number A

    Number A Registered User

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    I can't comment on the Japanese (alas) but I'd be surprised if there is anything explicit there. My theory is Yagi plays the sex card because he wants to make Roxanne and Cassandra's hatred of each other stick in our minds and has to do so quickly to avoid losing narrative momentum. The man's no fool and likely knows full well that nothing will get his readers' attention like a hint of yuri (and my god does he hint). Throwing a touch of psycho ex into the mix makes it easy for us to immediately accept that they loathe each other, allowing him to get them fighting and move back to Miria & Co. Keeping it ambiguous means we pay close attention to their relationship trying to figure it out so the few scenes they get have more impact. Personally, I'm inclined to accept it because I think Cassandra and her nameless friend make a really cute couple but that's just me being sentimental as there's no narrative grounding for that either (unless "embraced a variety of feelings" has a subtext that got lost in translation. . . ).

    Changing the subject, I understand that men and women speak slightly different forms of Japanese. Do Claymores typically talk like women or men?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2014
  3. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    You are a great poster :), we are lucky to get you here.

    That makes sense i could see that , just want Utsune to make sure, as it seems odd that Yagi would even think of saying something like that why did he not just say "they got very close" or "were very close friends" i think he had in mind a relationship that went beyond friendship. Cassandra blushed every time she seen Roxanne. But then again i could be wrong as Cassandra said "I swore to never show that technique in front of others, Not even the warrior number 5 who approached me and said she admired me, called me "Dust Eater" and left"- that to me makes it sounds like there relationship was brief and non romantic.


    in regards to the other part with Cassandra and her friend i think she had a crush on N35(To me cassandra comes across as someone who was solitary for so long that she was almost Asexual then when she met Roxanne, a woman who praised her and make her feel good about herself, she grew feelings for her....but not enough to let her see how she fights(do to the fear of "losing" Roxanne once she finds out how "ugly" her ability is. But then she saved the N35 and there relationship started off with N35 knowing Cassandras ability and seeing it as the ability that saved her not a "ugly" "dirty" ability, thus her feelings grew even more.

    But i would also like to know if the translation of "embraced a variety of feelings" is correct and exactly what dose that mean.

    ---------- Post added at 02:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 AM ----------

    Also Utsune if you dont mind could you check a few things for me.


    Chapter 116 page 12

    Roxanne says "me alone against an awakened being....what an awfully poor lot to draw" what is the exact translation is she just saying she has "bad luck"?

    Also

    Chapter 116 Page 28

    Roxanne "the two resurrected ones dont even remember there own names....how boring" what is the exact translation of that?
     
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  4. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    This is no doubt one of the more cryptic dialogues in Claymore, and most likely suggestive beyond the literal meaning of the phrase. Keep in mind I'll be writing the following from my take on this, do point out to me if you think I have missed out or misunderstood anything.

    Unfortunately, within my knowledge, there's nothing else I could add to the last answer I've posted here, but you can look at it this way: Upon searching this phrase on Google, every single result on the first 3 pages (I haven't looked further) suggests sexual undertones between a man and a woman. On the other hand, to put it bluntly, it appears as if this phrase required further confirmation between two female Claymores.

    As an aside, there are several obvious examples of sexual desires displayed by the youma-related kind (just to 'prove' these emotions do exist within them):
    Perhaps one of the first and most prominent signs of a Claymore's sexual urges is shown during Raki and Clare's first meeting with Helen, who provokingly suggests Raki as Clare's plaything (愛玩具 lit. "love toy,") to which Clare is subsequently taunted. More examples include Clare's youma-turned brother, Riful and Dauf, and Agatha's invitation to Sid. There are also other possible implications as Number A has pointed out above.

    I can't exactly speak for the Claymores themselves but I can't see who else can satisfy them within their ranks if not by each other, if they were active in this aspect anyway.


    @Michael
    Chapter 116:
    Roxanne: The term here is "貧乏くじ," any En-Jp dictionary will give you "short end of the stick," so the translation is as accurate as it can be. The only thing I'll add is, the term suggests "an undesirable role [to take]" rather than simply having bad luck.

    Roxanne: まったくどいつもこいつも馬鹿ばっかり
    甦った二人も自分の名前さえ覚えてないんだもん
    つまんない

    Lit: Geez there're only idiots here and there (example translation: Geez I'm surrounded by idiots.)
    The resurrected two don't even remember their own names[!] <--- Speaking Japanese can offer differently expressive tones depending on word choices at the end of the sentence. Eg. Naruto from Naruto ends in "(da)ttebayo." Here, Roxanne uses "(da)mon," which adds a very girly touch to her sentence.
    Boring/How boring/Boooring.




    @Number A
    Many Claymores use gender neutral personal pronouns when referring to themselves (the 'eccentric' ones are exceptions.) It does vary from Claymore to Claymore in terms of their degree of politeness. Eg. Miria and Galatea are very proper in their language and gender neutral; Roxanne (as mentioned above) and Riful use girly language; Helen, Anastasia, and Clarice use slightly feminine language but not 'pink' at all unlike Roxanne (Clarice is more polite than Helen, Anastasia uses gender neutral personal pronouns with a very classy proper feminine tone); Rachel is stupidly rude and speaks like a man (she uses 'ore' wtflol, which is only used by men as you may know.)

    IMO, even without reading the original text, it is possible to tell what kind of language they are using because Yagi has done brilliantly in drawing those in (eg. their actions, character designs etc. are all accurately complimented by their language.)

    (Note: By 'personal pronoun' I am mainly referring to first-person pronouns i.e. "I.")

    EDIT: One thing to point out, those who speak with a slight feminine tone doesn't necessarily mean they always have that feature in their language,. Depending on what they're talking about, they can be either gender neutral or coupled with a hint of feminine ways of speaking.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
  5. littleangel

    littleangel Registered User

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    OMG I love Roxanne even more now.. Ty Utsune :) I want to see her tone in the anime!! Can't wait for a remake.
     
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  6. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    I know i imagine it as a cute, girly voice :)
    and its cool to know now that even in Japanese she uses girly tones :)

    Thanks Utsune.

    What about Cassandra what tones dose she use?

    and are you serious about Rachel?
     
  7. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Let's face it, as long as they're not speaking in keigo (honorific speech,) they're not polite. But relatively speaking (compared to other Claymores,) Cassy is average and pretty standard in her tone. She literally does say "shit" every other panel after she awakens, but she also means it literally rather than being expressive with the term.

    Rachel's case might need some explanation: When speaking to people, there are many ways of referring to "you." It is the most polite to refer to them by their name even when speaking to them (or their position eg. Sensei) and even "anata" can sound rude depending on cases. (Eg. "Why do you like Roxanne so much?" as opposed to "I would be most enlightened if I were taught the reason why Michael-san loves Roxanne so much.") Rachel uses "temee" when speaking to Riful (anyone who watches Bleach here will hear them say a lot of "temee.") Japanese doesn't really have swear words, as a result any rude language will have much more of an impact. "Temee," being one of the most disrespectful "you," makes Rachel sound as condescending as one could be. Also, as I've mentioned before, speakers usually omit first-person pronouns ("I") in their sentences (again, depending on cases it can sound rude,) but if I haven't missed anything out, the first time Rachel uses "I" in a sentence is in her passing comment to Miria ("It ain't like I've approved of you") after the former No.6 shows her face again, and that is when she blurts out the manly "ore" among the waves of female Claymores. From the character design aspect, it kinda makes sense as her and Audrey are meant to be complete opposites by Yagi's design (Audrey is very polite in her language with a slight tinge of feminine speech.)

    Sorry for being a mouthful lol.
     
  8. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    So she is literally saying that Roxanne tastes like excrement.
    I always thought it was just her rude way of saying Roxanne tasted bad lol.

    What is the Japanese word that they used for "shit" i thought you said they had no real "swear words".

    So just to clear up as i am a tad confused.....Using personal pronouns like " I " is considered rude/disrespectful or is that just how it could come across ?


    Thanks for the Rachel explanation, she seems to get a lot of hate(i dont mind her sure she was not the prettyest warrior, but she is still kinda cool....she reminds me a bit of Undine)- was Undines tone's similar Rachel's ?.
    So Rachel is just rude when she talks, she did call Riful "octopus woman" (if i remember correctly )
     
  9. Goral

    Goral Registered User

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    First things first, thanks again Utsune for creating this thread. I was planning to do so myself (since I was one of the people who suggested the creation of such a thread on Animesuki and one who made it finally possible, although there were some stupid restrictions involved like not mentioning the name of a translator) but there was always something standing in the way of it :P. Having said that, you can see original posts here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3576929#post3576929 (sometimes with pictures for better understanding)

    Anyway, I've sent you some of the answers to my or Piggy's questions that Gernot has sent me but only the ones I found most important. Here's the rest (almost everything is here, there are some questions missing so you might have to surmise it yourself from the context):

    Volume 9, p. 26

    Chapter 77
    http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2112732#post2112732 (the link gives a better explanation)

    Chapter 114

    Chapter 115
    Chapter 118
    Chapter 127


    Chapter 131
    Chapter 137
    Some minor thing: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2177091#post2177091
     
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  10. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Literally shit everywhere, lol, that's why I love Cassy :D

    Ah, well if you mean curse words to voice out distaste, yeah sure. They don't really have the same stuff as the way we use the f word in English -- is what I'm mainly referring to.

    The omission of personal pronouns is sometimes exploited for comical misunderstandings, and is also the source of certain translation issues we come across from time to time. It's a bit complicated to illustrate fully, or at least I'm not good enough to clarify :p but it's kinda like, if you want to simply say "I want to go to the moon," simply "watashi wa Tsuki ni ikitai" would often suffice... if that could clear it up a bit.

    And haha, I admit I do sound a bit antagonistic when it comes to Rachel, mostly to poke fun of her rudeness and cockiness. (But to be strangely honest, she's kinda cute when she tries to go against her character, shaving off that attitude in attempt to show acceptance :p And yes she did call her octopus woman lol, at least we now know octopus exist in the Claymore world.)

    Undine sounds like your typical hot-headed individual from a shounen manga (Rachel's language is a lot more 'violent' than hers I'd say, if that's the right word. It's a bit difficult to explain because it's to do with every part of their sentences.) She uses "atashi," a form of "I" used only by females in general.
     
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  11. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    Thank you very much :D

    you are amazing(how did u not win best staff member)

    Im not sure if you are getting to it later, but in Gorals post he has a thing for Vol 9 page 26 the thing about Gala saying " when i release my yoma power it is the strongest out of the 47" because that makes it sounds like when she releases her yoki she has the most out of any warrior(and Alicia and beth have AO level yoki) so i dont quite understand
     
  12. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Just doing my part for our beloved Claymore! :turtle

    Lol I've seen the Galatea panel from vol.9 fly around in discussions. Gernot has already given the translation as accurate as it can be ("rate of increase.") I think the only question remains is what the "rate of increase" could suggest in terms of utility, and whether there are any implicit limits/conditions on both the "rate" and the "increase," which doesn't have anything to do with the translation aspect :p

    On another note, thanks for the compilation Goral, I've updated the first post.
     
  13. Number A

    Number A Registered User

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    Oh gosh yes, I'm pretty happy with my sense of who these people are and what they're like. That said, I would have pegged Helen as neutral-masculine and am surprised Roxanne is as girly as Riful (who does come across that way) so clearly I am missing out :(

    One thing though, and this is relevant to way more than just Claymore, is that translator attempts to convey masculine speech typically make people sound like bogans. Does 'ore' imply the user is uneducated and boorish or is that a distortion?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  14. Nanozom

    Nanozom Registered User

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    Ore...
    By the definition of the term it´s based on the context if it is rude or not.

    It could be described as "bossy" when the speaker is around those that are younger or more inexperienced. A "I am the boss" attitude that is similar to a self-proclaimed bully.
    Hostile example among strangers and:
    (example from reality.)
    "Whatcha say?"

    But when used among those the speaker considers friends or family, it becomes a sign of familiarity than one of bossiness and masculinity.
    Example of this from real life... (as I see it.)
    "Yo, Sis!"

    (I moved far away from Claymore here but this was to give the rest of you a feeling on how it feels when a "ore" user talks among his or her comrades.)

    I might be wrong with this, but I cross checked the sources and if I am wrong then go ahead and tell me so.
    This is just a theory.
    :)
     
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  15. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    I would say it's definitely a distortion in Claymore's case, but I can't say for all manga. Unfortunately Japanese speeches have so many more dimensions than English, there will always be loss in one form or another through translation. My view on this is (and as far as I know,) as a rule of thumb for Claymore, the implications behind their language (Japanese) are pretty straightforward (eg. reflecting their current mood, their personality/character) rather than arbitrarily implicit (eg. their education, how/where they're brought up, if they would walk into lampposts on the street or not) and this is mainly what the English tries to replicate.
     
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  16. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    Yeah i am also surprised that Roxanne has a "girly" voice like Riful's, i always thought that Roxanne would have a more sultry voice, as apposed to Rifuls child-like voice.

    Utsune how well did the anime voice actress for Riful do in makeing her voice sounds like the tone Riful uses in the manga?
     
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  17. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    The expressiveness of Japanese speech is very literally written out i.e. whatever appears on paper, it is easy to expect the sort of tone the VAs would use in general and vice versa; as long as you read out the script word for word, you would quite naturally get the intended tone. I've only gone over the bit nearing the end of their meeting (with Clare and Galatea,) but their dialogues (anime and manga) are almost identical, meaning the tone would naturally be portrayed accurately.

    ---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

    Btw, there're different types of 'girly' :p To put it simply, I'd say Roxanne is a different type of 'girly' compared to Riful as well as having a differing tone of voice :XD It's a bit hard to explain how so...
     
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  18. number12michael

    number12michael Registered User

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    I would assume Riful talks like a "girly child" while Roxanne talks like a "girly highschool girl"
     
  19. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Ooo err wait wait, I just notice the term "girly" could be a bit subjective. Maybe "girly" was the wrong choice of word on my part, sorry! :p "Feminine" is the better description here. I would quite agree with you on the Roxanna highschool girl bit, but I feel that Riful speaks in a more mature tone than Roxanne, surprise surprise(!)
     
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  20. littleangel

    littleangel Registered User

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    Omg I'm in shock now.. I demand a remake this min!! I have to hear Roxanne speaking.. Omg I could die if no remake is announced by the end of this year!!
     
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