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Info Claymore Alternative Translation and Clarification

Discussion in 'Claymore' started by Utsune, Nov 14, 2012.

  1. Number A

    Number A Registered User

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    If Roxanne were alive in our world today, I think she'd be either a cutthroat executive with a passion for expensive designer everything or locked up in a secure facility for the criminally insane.

    Returning to translation, I have another annoyingly broad-spectrum question relating to honourifics: do Clare and Raki use honourifics when speaking to each other and, if not, when did they stop? Any other general observations are, of course, welcome ^_^
     
  2. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Ah good point. Between Raki and Clare there are no honorifics used at all from the very beginning. But it's kinda different in certain manga especially when it comes to foreign and fantastical settings like Claymore or Shingeki no Kyojin. Some characters use them, some don't. The lack of honorifics here doesn't necessarily mean rudeness in that sense. The use of honorifics generally comes hand-in-hand with honorific speech. To simplify the explanation, I think using honorifics comes from things like experience and the circumstances of the meeting between the two. For Claymore, the lack of honorifics doesn't really mean anything, but the few places that use it ("Rimuto-sama" (by all Men in Black) and "Daae-sama" (by his underlings) from the top of my head) would be pretty distinctive. As an aside, Raki uses polite language with Isley, though I don't remember he has ever called him by his name, I would expect him to add "san" when speaking to him lol.
     
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  3. Number A

    Number A Registered User

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    That makes sense. Modding forms of address is as good a way to worldbuild as any.

    From what I've seen around the fringes of translations, Miria seems to get honourificed quite a bit (Miria-neesan from Helen, Miria-taichou from others). Clarice also refers to Galatea as Galatea-san. If they're not typically a thing, would it be fair to say that honourifics are used to convey a sense of respectful distance between the person talking and the person listening?
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
  4. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Yes that would definitely be the case. As mentioned earlier, in Claymore, the lack of such doesn't stand out as much as the inclusion of. I do recall Clarice adding "san" to the few seniors she speaks to. Helen's "Miria-neesan" isn't consistent, but it does appear from time to time. As far as I remember, it has always been "Miria" only for Deneve. "Taichou" as you may know means "Captain," and it makes sense the former lower digits would retain this title in their speech. For Clare-->Miria and Deneve-->Miria, I feel that in one way or another, there's something that they (Clare/Deneve) consider equal between them, hence the straight-up name-call. I can't exactly put this in word though, and it's just my view anyway.
     
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  5. Number A

    Number A Registered User

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    Both cases make sense. In the scenes where she uses Miria's name most, Deneve is doing her utmost to make it clear to Miria that she needs to respect the choices of the people who follow her. A direct address says "Fundamentally, we are equal as human beings", reenforcing her message that everyone obeys Miria of their own free will in full awareness of the risks they face because they believe in her. Clare is comparable in strength to Miria and has her own agenda separate from killing the organisation. Direct address is her way of saying "I am my own person, I live my own way".

    An interesting variation on the honourifics-as-distance pattern is the way Galatea typically addresses Miria as 'Phantom Miria'. She outranked Miria once, making addressing her as a superior inappropriate, but she seems to want to maintain the distance they bring.

    Leaving Miria aside for the moment, I've found two versions of the scene where Deneve (which really should be 'Deneuve' but whatever) tells her story to Undine: here and here. One of them emphasises how annoying Deneve initially found Helen, the other doesn't. Which strikes you as closer to the spirit of the original?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2014
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  6. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Yeah, going back to a point mentioned up there somewhere, their tone of speech also comes in conjuncture with the rest of their character and personality.

    I think the "Phantom Miria" is your typical 'acknowledge and respect' way of addressing reputable individuals (and not a specifically Japanese-related honorific.) It's like saying, I recognise you have made a name for yourself within the ranks, and I'll address you by your achievements as such.

    As for your query, yes Deneuve is saying Helen is annoying lol. Actually, I don't mean offense to anyone but you should ignore the scans in your first link. To be blunt, the translation is kinda bad in that there are ideas missing (such as the one you just ask about.) Your second link is good to go.
     
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  7. Goral

    Goral Registered User

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    Funny thing is - this is official English translation. These scans are just scans of 10th volume published by Viz. Its inaccuracy was one of the main reasons why we wanted a translation thread on Animesuki. That's why I once wanted Gernot to translate some of these pages but in the end he didn't find time to do it. The reason why it interested me is because there are tons of information about youki, defensive/offensive Claymores, male ABs (Miria making a big mistake which probably was that she assumed male Claymores were no longer being made), Priscilla and Teresa, etc.
     
  8. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Lool :lmao I was actually wondering if the second link were official. And ah about your link, yes I remember you showed me a long while ago. I have lined them up and given a quick look just now. Despite the somewhat questionable Deneve-Undine convo, the Clare-Ophelia conversation seems to be fine, or at least the technicalities are correct. There is nothing too outstandingly 'wrong' between Irene and Clare either, though there are some places the translator has prioritised flow over accuracy, but nothing game changing. The only bit (that immediately stands out to me) that might cause a little fuss is where Irene says she will start regenerating now to get a normal arm back. The phrase is 人並み筋力の腕 --- I would put it as "an arm of ordinary strength" --- 人並み: decent, fair, average, ordinary (while "normal" is a pretty subjective term tbh, the Japanese kinda means "on par with people" literally, so I would assume it is gonna be a pretty ordinary arm. Also, this isn't anything to do with the translation but I would assume Irene means it when she goes all the way out to describe it being 'normal' rather than simply "getting an arm back." Not to mention Clare promising to return her arm.); 筋力: (muscle) strength.
     
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  9. Number A

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    Utsune! In chapter 101 when they're fleeing from Priscilla, Deneve makes an offhand reference to the 'goddess of fortune' which isn't present in other translations. Is this present in the original text and, if so, is there any reason to infer the deity is female?

    Incidentally, I'd noticed the mangafox scans are inferior to those present elsewhere. I only bother with them because they're the only hosting service I know of which displays chapter names as well as numbers. This makes it A LOT easier to find things.

    Nice piano, btw, is there any particular reason you've got it as your signature pic?
     
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  10. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Ahoyyy,

    Oh strange that it says "goddess of fortune" because this idea is not at all present in the Japanese :S No offense to anyone but if I recall correctly I did find MF Claymore to be inferior as you've noted, at least for the earlier chapters (haven't checked out the new ones,) so I would take things with a pinch of salt. (I do realise that certain sites are more popular but the translation isn't always the best out there, hence the existence of threads such as this one. Anyone reading this, feel free to share the version they trust. I personally recommend gernot's and waychanger's translations.) Anyways, the correct translation for the part in question is exactly as written in your second link.


    Thanks, that's my piano :D But the main reason is, I feel naked without a sig, so it's kinda just a placeholder until I can think of something else lol.
     
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  11. Number A

    Number A Registered User

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    Wow o_O Poor spelling, bad grammar, incorrect punctuation, and general incoherence are one thing but making things up? That takes bad translation to a whole new level. My inner debugger speculates that this translation might not be from the original Japanese but has been contaminated with a language where 'pray to the goddess of fortune' is an idiomatic phrase.

    For what it's worth, I take all translations with a grain of salt (you least of all since I can bug you ^_^). Gernot and Waychanger, who produce clear and readable material, need little more than light seasoning; MF might as well be pickled in brine. Not fully getting what was being said used to really bug me until I realised manga is a visual medium so general dialogue indicators are usually more than enough. This is particularly true of Claymore where most of the plot and character development is manifest through actions and events (where were you when I was a Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle fan??!). When it comes right down to it, though, all timely manga translation, good and bad, is done by volunteers in their spare time. I'm just grateful it exists at all.

    Do you play?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  12. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    It's unfortunate but even the best of translations will find it difficult to portray the exact message from time to time. No matter what, you're bound to lose some information when you translate from one language to another. I'm only saying this from experience, but usually you will lose out on the feel/emotion if you try to focus on the accuracy, and vice versa. The main purpose of this thread is to try to give you an idea on both the feel of the dialogue as well as giving you an accurate description of the point behind the text. That said, my alternatives tend to be an unsuitable replacement but I hope it would provide the necessary insight in figuring out what is actually being said in the original language.

    (There're a few vids here here in reply to your last line, drop me a message there :D )
     
  13. Number A

    Number A Registered User

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  14. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Eyo. Lol you do pick up good points. The second link definitely portrays the sentiments better IMO (and is more literally accurate.) "You" is definitely not the subject in the original. Simply put, I think there are ways of phrasing this sentence in Japanese so that the inclusion of the word "you" is more valid, but none of those are which Clare chooses to phrase her speech. The idea of 'other people (forgetting the name)' isn't implied here, it's all about the name (being a forgettable existence.) For these reasons, I feel that Clare is being personal and maybe even sentimental in this dialogue, and that the translation in your second link is more suitable. Hope I'm not confusing you lol.

    (And thanks!! ^^ )
     
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  15. Number A

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    You're not confusing me, quite the opposite actually ^_^

    I don't think Clare is being personal exactly, the vibe I get from her is that she's contemplating how the world sees warriors and testing Raki's reactions to what she says. She kind of does the same thing to Father Vincent in Rabona.

    THIS is exhibit A in the Viz Media hall of shame. Names, remembrance and forgetting, and the value of life are HUGE in Claymore and this is the moment when they're introduced. I could write another essay on this, though I think I'll wait 'till the manga finishes before I do so.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  16. Goral

    Goral Registered User

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  17. serpico

    serpico Registered User

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    From what I can make say they ar given for free the first volume the claymore blue exorcist an some others manga from QS
     
  18. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Tweet:
    SQ Comics Vol.1 currently free availability** at JUMP BOOKSTORE!
    Claymore, Ao no Exorcist, Teiichi no Kuni, Libido Hunter Takeru, Hanimero, Tsunemori Akane, Lilim Kiss, Senjou Animation, Adashimono!
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    Poster:
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    P.S. The offer in question is HERE. Claymore is HERE.
     
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  19. Goral

    Goral Registered User

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    While skimming through the observations thread I've noticed that this has remained unanswered:
    It's chapter 50, page 15 or 16 (142 in volume 9).
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014
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  20. Utsune

    Utsune 風立ちぬ いざ生きめやも

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    Btw I find this translation a bit out and deceiving. I'll try to clarify before I move on:

    The idea "Boys are transported to the north, girls to the east" is fine.

    "In this world" is actually referring to "Everyone," so it's saying "Everyone in this world knows that" / "the world knows that" rather than "The orphans in this world are transported..."

    In this certain description, the Japanese specifically says "[orphans in] this continent," it's definitely singular here.



    Anyways, the term here is "tairiku," which does mean continent. I'm not sure if he means continent the way some people perceive a continent to be. A continent is a huge landmass right down to it. Though I've always thought he's simply referring to "orphans in this land," now that you mention it, I think it is entirely possible (and likely) Rubel made a mistake with his choice of word (which hints at the existence of a world outside,) if this is the blunder you're referring to. (IMO If someone with no knowledge of the world outside says "tairiku," it would have been fine. But knowing Rubel is from the outside world, the usage of the term here most probably have other implications.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
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