1. We are looking for new moderators and News Writers. If you are interested, apply here.
  2. The first voting day of the Anime League is here! Tell us which new Anime of this season you liked the most so far!
  3. We Never Learn, U19, Demon Prince Poro's Diaries, Hungry Marie, Dr. Stone, Robot x Laserbeam. Tell us what you think of the newest additions to the WSJ line-up HERE!
  4. New Week, New Contest!
    We're back to the regular contests. This time, it's Brothers Avatar & Signature Set. Showcase brotherly love in sets!

    Voting has begun for the Caligraphy summer contest!
  5. The Waifu Wars 2017 have begun! Show us your love!
  6. Starting from mid-February or so we'll be going through the media gallery and sorting through the submissions there to ensure they match with our recent changes listed in the Media Gallery Guide.
    As such some media files will be removed, so please be sure to look through your media and ensure it is up to requirements If you have any questions, contact a global/admin.
In case you've missed it, Mangahelpers is recruiting new Moderators/News Writers. If you're interested, please read HERE for more information.
Though artists in particular, everyone please do check out the [MEDIA GUIDE] , as there are information relevant for you all. Thanks!

Discussion Criticism Thread

Discussion in 'Nanatsu no Taizai' started by eefrit, Mar 9, 2015.

  1. Holt

    Holt F.O.U.R

    MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted

    Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,201
    Likes Received:
    3,618
    Gender:
    Male
    Country:
    Nigeria
    If there was someone that would actually count as a sin and who parents would try to keep their children away from, its ban no contest, but he is one of my favorite characters. Outside the time he tried to kill Mel to get Elaine, I hardly have anything thing against. Doesn't mean he hasn't done some shitty stuff but that's just what makes him on of my best tbh. I think he's just a real character. He doesn't fake or anything and tells it like it is. Just like when he told Mel to get his act together against dale.


    Lol..that was so unexpected, I actually burst out laughing.
     
  2. overlordpringerx

    overlordpringerx Registered User

    英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    209
    Country:
    Spain
    you're just making Ban sound even creepier, not more understandable. If anything you seem to forget a lot of things. If King hadnt turned himself in, a war against the fairies would have been unavoidable. And he at least made sure that Diane could take care of herself without him. Oh, and Ban himself said Mel was his only friend
     
  3. Demonspeed

    Demonspeed The Hierophant

    伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member

    Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    13,553
    Likes Received:
    5,579
    Gender:
    Male
    Country:
    France
    I am not trying to make Ban look better, in this series having extreme feelings for someone has never been portrayed as creepy, rather it's the contrary. He did say that Meliodas is his only friend but I read all the chapters and that's not something I find believable, it's used just for drama. King didn't need to take care of Diane since she was living alone before he met her, he erased her memories and left. A war could have happened but it was not necessary to erase her memories, he only did so because he could not fulfill his promise.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015
  4. eefrit

    eefrit He who controls the pants...

    有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity

    Mangahelper

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,116
    Likes Received:
    1,454
    Country:
    United States
    Gilthunder: He was a character with sociopathic tendencies, yet, we are supposed to believe that this was an act to protect Margret? The dude sealed a well because a child insulted him, taking away a key ingredient in the town's export, crippling them. He is then flung into a church, destroying it and leaving it's inhabitants severely injured, and just walks away. His reason wasn't believable at all. What makes it all the weird is that he was still reporting strange going ons to Dreyfus, despite the fact that that's actually going against Hendricksen and should have put Margret in danger all the same.

    Elizabeth: As with most people, I have no problems with cliches if they are done interesting or extremely well. Elizabeth isn't one of those cases. She is a terribly boring cliche of a character. A kind strong willed princess who puts the needs of others in front of her own. Plus she can heal people...come on now. For the longest time, she had no real flaws that I could discern accept for her shyness, which has turned into full on unwillingness to speak up on her feelings, which has now taken up a huge portion of her character. The only reason I'm the slightest invested in her character is her apparent connection to Liz and the implications of her potentially being reborn again. I've stated this before, but I vastly preferred her one shot version, which appeared to have way more personality and potential than Elizabeth. Thinking about it now, she was a stereotype as well, but not one you usually see for a character like her. She was basically a shounen hero, but was female instead of male.

    Meliodas: Now, over the years, I've grown to dislike "main protagonist" characters in manga, so I may be speaking from a place of bias (more of that to come later). Mel is character whose "too cool for school" mentality works as a detriment to him. He is so aloof that I don't really have any reason to care about him. It's even affected how I view his relationships with other characters. His friendships with the others don't really seem genuine, so to speak, and the only person he has actually shown to care about is, as I stated above, boring for her own reasons, so I am not invested in that relationship. I don't know if his lack of depth is due to his characterization or his, currently, unknown back story. Maybe he'll get better as the story continues.

    I'll get to Ban tomorrow.
     
  5. Holt

    Holt F.O.U.R

    MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted

    Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,201
    Likes Received:
    3,618
    Gender:
    Male
    Country:
    Nigeria
    Hmm..I always thought Gil sticking the sword there was probably because he thought Mel would be there soon. Although that wasn't confirmed but that's what I thought of it. It was still a shitty thing to do ofcourse, but that was probably him trying to get Mel's attention.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  6. overlordpringerx

    overlordpringerx Registered User

    英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    209
    Country:
    Spain
    I don't know what to say. So far I've liked every single character. The only characters I disliked were the villains, not because of bad writing, but because of brilliant writing. I was SUPPOSED to hate them and it worked with me, so I still count that as liking them. Gil did awful things, but unlike Ban, he was being forced, not offered, to help, since he was a child ontop of that. And still, everything he did, down to his choice of words, is a subtle cry for help. And I dont see Nakaba fucking up yet.
     
  7. kkck

    kkck MH Senpai

    神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    26,624
    Likes Received:
    8,351
    Country:
    Galactic Empire
    I was also thinking that the stuff gilthunder did was mostly to draw meliodas' attention. All he needs is information about meliodas whereabouts and move to draw his attention. Twigo had just seen him so moving to bernia, an ale village, makes sense. Meliodas would clearly take issue with the best ale in the land being impeded.
     
  8. eefrit

    eefrit He who controls the pants...

    有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity

    Mangahelper

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,116
    Likes Received:
    1,454
    Country:
    United States
    Gilthunder planted the sword before Elizabeth and Twigo found Mel. Elizabeth met Mel the day before they went to the town, but the townsfolk said that Gilthunder came days before they arrived.

    Ban: Let's get this out of the way. I used to love Ban. He and King were my two favorite characters at the start of the series. Then the Kingdom Infiltration arc happened. Yeah, his entire little arc really soured his character for me. Yeah, yeah, Elaine, yeah, yeah, selfishness, I know, but yeah, no, but this just seemed like a cheap attempt for instant conflict, which opens up another issue in which a dead Elaine's only purpose is provide conflict for Ban's character. I hated the task the Goddess clan gave it. It was obvious and predictable, so I was already unhappy with that. Ban's attitude during that chapter also rubbed me the wrong way. He just seemed so...easily taken in. Some proof or something would have been nice. Then we get to the meat. Ban's attempt on Mel's life. So it didn't take much to convince him to kill Mel.

    I'm well aware that Ban and Mel's relationship hasn't been shown in the series, but the fact of the matter is we've been told that they are friends. The author obviously wants us to believe that to be the case, so that makes it even more unbelievable that Ban would just easily pick a trade like that. Ban even told Mel that he loved him while he attempted to kill him...okay then. What about him finding out Mel was in the demon clan? Well, he pretty much already knew that before the Goddess clan told him, but he himself chose to push it to the back of his mind and still stay friends with Mel, so obviously it wasn't that much of an issue. Then after claiming that the world without her is hell...he just drops it...I mean, I never really bought that he was convinced to stop trying to kill Mel at that moment. He seems so adamant on reviving Elaine it feels like a total emotional 180. Mel just tells him to perform his duty with a "promise" and Ban just stops. I mean, we've seen Ban ignore Mel's orders before, so what makes this time different?

    Anyway, yeah, that's my grievance with Ban. He has his moments (mostly with other characters), but when he is alone, I only tolerate him/dislike him.
     
  9. Notice me Escanor senpai

    Notice me Escanor senpai Registered User

    伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2008
    Messages:
    12,387
    Likes Received:
    4,576
    Country:
    Morocco
    I was thinking that maybe the stuff with Ban killing Mel was just for show, you know for to convince the Goddess clan or something. I doubt Ban would have really killed Mel, so maybe he wanted to trick the Goddess clan into reviving Elaine by making it look like he killed Mel. And it's not like he really could kill him. Either way it does look like he regrets his action a bit back then, or else why leave the sins? The problem I have with Ban and just with Nakaba's characterization is that it's not consistent, and the relationships between the Sins aren't fleshed out. How are we supposed to believe that Ban and Mel are best friends?Not just on Ban's side, but on Mel's too. Hell even King wasn't really friends with Ban till recently. This is the issue I have with the manga right now, only a few relationships are fleshed out, and they're mostly of a romantic nature. So I'm thinking that it's better to see the Sins as coworkers, rather than friends, that is until they reunited.Now they seem to have gotten a bit closer, but still not enough to make us believe that they are friends.
     
  10. HeartGold12

    HeartGold12 Registered User

    中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    32
    Country:
    Poland
    Well, the stuff with Ban actually was not sudden.

    Remember back at Byzel when he went crazy? Well we had this little exchange:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Of course, he later gave him one punch back. Mel even treated it as well deserved.

    But that's not all, as chapter 51 shows. Ban is still really tense about it, and thou he denies it, his reaction to King accusing Mel of being from the Demon clan pretty much shows he's considering it, and is not too happy about it either (look at his face!). Later when Diane and Eli interrupt them his expression can't be seen, and then he's seen as neutral.

    That's an entire existential crisis that takes up most of the chapter xD

    In the next arc, he gets into a big argument with Mel, and it involves Mel refusing to get serious on a demon. However, once he does kill Dale, it looks as if he'd been forgiven and Ban starts being friendly with him again.

    And all is well until an ancient magical Horn tells him that Mel was indeed a demon. That's the third person to think so aside form Ban and King. By that time I was pretty sure that he was going to kick his ass and demand answers anyway.

    All of the above shows us that Ban turning on Mel was not instant :/

    As for him persisting in his pursuit and staying hostile towards him - after fighting and talking with Hawk/Mel, then being told by Mel they'd settle the fight later... Well, he quit and is currently on the other side of Britannia xD Trying to find some other way to get Elaine back that will not include hurting him.

    So not only was it not instanteous, it didn't last either. They had a very bad argument and brief fight to the death that Ban is resolving by (in my opinion quite deservedly) blaming himself, keeping distance and being an idiot.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2015
  11. Demonspeed

    Demonspeed The Hierophant

    伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member

    Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    13,553
    Likes Received:
    5,579
    Gender:
    Male
    Country:
    France
    Ban was planning to kill him... he regretted it later but at this moment he was ready to do it. You are right that some relations don't seem fleshed out but I think it's mostly because of the focus action, I find that the Sins have a pretty good dynamic together when I read the omakes. In the main story they are mostly focused on their individual problems.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2015
    HeartGold12 likes this.
  12. overlordpringerx

    overlordpringerx Registered User

    英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    209
    Country:
    Spain
    Out of all the sins, I definitely like Ban the least. He is the one we know the most of so far, but what we know isnt that interesting. He's funny and all, but sometimes he goes too far, like in Edinburgh were he could have gotten Diane and King killed! And the lack of respect he showed when he thought King was dead really shows how little he actually cared for the others back then. His powers are pretty cool, but at the same time he is one of the worst fighters in the manga. Vs King: loses Vs Guila: loses Vs Mel: loses Vs Jericho :loses... I understand with King and Mel, but he just keeps getting hit so hard he would have died if he wasnt immortal, which actually makes his 'you won by being cheap' line even funnier, considering he and Meliodas are being cheap all the time. But I really like his relationship with Elaine, and how he went out of his way to show her his stuff, since she couldn't leave the forest and explore the world. Plus he has some really cool philosophy when she asks him why humans are greedy. And like with all the other characters, I think I will wait a while before I decide if he is a good or a bad written character, since there is still two major arcs to be covered. Except for King and Diane. They're forever my favorites. Both, together and individually.
     
  13. Demonspeed

    Demonspeed The Hierophant

    伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member

    Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    13,553
    Likes Received:
    5,579
    Gender:
    Male
    Country:
    France
    Ban is not really the Sin we know the most of, King is easily first in this category though all of their pasts are mysterious. I agree that he is a jerk but I find that some of you are exaggerating, it's not an excuse but he used Physical Hunt on these two because he was drunk and it's not like these two were really threatened anyway. He is not a respectful person either, reading their interactions are enough to show that they are on friendly terms IMO, he is not some kind of antihero hating everyone but Meliodas and Elaine, he even has a soft spot for Hawk.

    I used to think he would not really be that strong if he was not immortal but considering that the only human who could match the Sins was Zaratras( didn't mention Escanor because he is a Sin), it says a lot about his powers. He seems to be used to hits and don't care much anymore, he dodges only when he finds it necessary.
     
  14. eefrit

    eefrit He who controls the pants...

    有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity

    Mangahelper

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,116
    Likes Received:
    1,454
    Country:
    United States
    He most likely wouldn't have been able to kill him, but I do believe he had the intent to kill him. He regrets it, but it still doesn't sit right with me.

    Actually, Ban and King's friendship is one of the more natural relationships in the series. It started out with the two apparently not getting along, if not outright hating each other, since their days as knights, but throughout the current timeline, we see them actually developing alongside each other and becoming "friends", though neither would probably admit it. Those two are more best friends than Mel and Ban. This was exemplified even more in chapter 111, where both try to get the other to return to things they themselves lost. King tries to get Ban to be friends with Mel again, knowing the pain of losing a best friend, and Ban tries to get King to return to Diane, knowing the pain of losing a lover. If that isn't pure 100% bromanship, I don't know what is.

    I don't really see that as hinting towards the "tension" between the two.

    This was the first we saw of the actual tension Ban had, this is true, but he pushed those thoughts back, despite seeing the contrary, and chose to believe in Meliodas.

    That argument was moreso about putting Dale out of his misery than sparring him and forcing him to live like that, so I didn't see that as build up to the assault. Now, if the author dropped some hints or, perhaps, had Ban question Mel's allegiance and reason for wanting to save a demon before having Mel answer that Dale was still human, I'd buy it. Even before Dale was killed, Ban treated Mel the same as always despite Byzel. Nothing really changed.

    Again, to me, the tension wasn't built up, so it seemed like Ban was easily swayed. He would have demanded answers, but I doubt he would have attempted to murder him.

    ---------- Post added at 02:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------

    I'd say Ban and King are tied. We know of both their lives before their respective Sins, though Ban's was shown in a little snippets rather than an entire flashback. We got the gist of why both do what they do and what drives them, so, yeah, we know the most about both of them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2015
  15. Demonspeed

    Demonspeed The Hierophant

    伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member

    Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2012
    Messages:
    13,553
    Likes Received:
    5,579
    Gender:
    Male
    Country:
    France
    I am not only talking about their pasts, I am considering their abilities and the rest too. King for example has his ST since the beginning and used plenty of forms while Ban has barely shown us what he can do with his Sacred Treasure, he didn't even use it in the main story yet. I would put him 3rd behind King and Diane.
     
  16. eefrit

    eefrit He who controls the pants...

    有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity

    Mangahelper

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,116
    Likes Received:
    1,454
    Country:
    United States
    Diane? We don't even know her Sin or her reason for living alone as a child. While we do know about her power with and without her Sacred Treasure, but her history is pretty much unknown.

    In terms of abilities, I still see them being the equal, just on the opposite spectrum. King has his sacred treasure, but we know nothing about Disaster. Ban doesn't have his sacred treasure, but we know about Snatch.
     
  17. overlordpringerx

    overlordpringerx Registered User

    英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    209
    Country:
    Spain
    I agree that powers are also something important to know about, but so far Disaster has only been shown once, and we still dont know how it works. I know you think its an amplifier, but that doesnt make any sense. It cant be as simple as that or else nobody would ever know he had an ability at all, he would just be thought to be even stronger. So we know less about Disaster than about Snatch, while we know more about Chastiefol than Ban's ST. But there are still other things about King we dont know. Like why he doesnt have wings, his life before being the fairy king(he knew the previous fairy king) or the way he would fight in case of losing Chastiefol. With Ban we know basically his entire lifestory, and how Snatch works. What we dont know however, is his ST's ability. So I consider we know at least a little more about Ban than King. And definitely more than about Diane.

    ---------- Post added at 12:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

    I got that vibe too, though Im not really sure if we're right. But it makes sense that King would be great friends with Ban, since Ban is a little like Helbram.
     
  18. Teachan

    Teachan Registered User

    初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2006
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    4
    Country:
    China
    >makes an account years ago
    >never uses it
    >start posting now that she got into NNT
    >it's to criticize characters

    Wow. Go me. :notrust

    Aaaaanyway, let me rant for a bit. While I'm glad to see that many have addressed the Elaine-looks-like-a-child issue, I have even more issues with her. Both her character and her relationship with Ban.

    As we know, she got stuck guarding the fountain of youth in King's place when the latter left, lost his memory, yadda, yadda. Her story with Ban illustrates that she was bored with this life, guarding something, never going out to see the world. Enter Ban, who comes from said world and starts narrating her things she has never seen, but would love to see. One week passes and the mess with the demon happens, she dies and accepts that Ban will spend his immortality trying to bring her back.

    For me, Elaine's feelings for Ban have always been one of "a means to an end" and a way to fight her insane boredom. She wanted to go out to the world, Ban was her ticket, in a way. This whole "fairies can read people's hearts" makes it even harder to accept her feelings as true love; she didn't spend time with Ban, earning his trust thus making him open up to her with his past under his own volition, no. One peek and she knew his life. Where are the bonding experiences here?

    If anything, they both seemed to have the same goal: try to get a life that's better than it was. This was a good foundation, but foundation only. There is no build. Not only that, but the fact that we're supposed to think that their feelings are so deep when they passed a week together drives me nuts. When Ban talks about her ("This world without her is like hell"), it sounds like he spent a lifetime with her, that he had developed a lifestyle living with her for years and had created a blissful routine. And then the Ban Gaiden tells us that they stent a week together and then she died. Where is the epic romance here? Yes, there was the start of something, but it doesn't go accordingly with Ban's current actions, which are borderline obsessive. Especially, an obsession strong enough to make him willing to kill his friend whom he did know for years of camaraderie and experiences. Something he and Elaine never had. The newest chapters where he regrets it, puts Elaine and Mel on the same scale, which is outrageous.

    When I see Ban's story, there is a theme being repeated: Ban really doesn't get along with humans. Mel is a demon, Elaine was a fairy, Zhivago was a beast-man... everything seems to show that Ban and humans don't mix. However, then Jericho came along and human as she is, with her own greed and flaws and humane motivations for stupid behaviour, pretty much made Ban's feelings for Elaine clear:

    Ban gets attached to people who accept him as he is.

    He clings onto them. Elaine was one of those few, so he clings onto her as well. And since he has the pride of greed, the desire to want want want, he develops obsessions and becomes either a) stupidly blind to anything else (Jericho has learned a ton about Ban -his past, his father, his comrades, his whole characters with all his flaws and still thinks of him as such a good man- but Ban seems to be blind to her) or b) he succumbs stupidly easily to any proposal regarding said obsessions, no matter who proposes them or what the price is (him attacking Mel fits this).

    Ironically enough, now that Elaine is an zombie, she acts as stupidly obsessively as Ban: she attacks any person who dares to attract Ban's (totally platonic) attention even by simple talking to him. Ban attacked Mel just because a disembodied voice told him. Wow. Much clever, very love... not.

    Sure, Ban and Elaine have longing and tragedy, but it seems to be more longing for what each has to offer to the other and the tragedy that they didn't, in fact, become more. Quite selfish, the opposite of true love.



    My second grip is with Meliodas. I find him so... unrelatable as a character. From the beginning, his confidence in front of the impossible feats of the Holy Knights made me uninterested since there was no struggle, no journey to be had with him. There seemed to be one now with getting over Liz's death and moving on but the mangaka shot himself on the foot by making Elizabeth Liz's reincarnation. Where's the journey, if the end goal is the same? Meliodas isn't moving on, he remains stuck in a place that made him miserable for years. And his groping has become annoying and disgusting. On the contrast with the majority here, I don't put the blame on Elizabeth; Meliodas is the one who should just fucking stop, Christ. It's not funny anymore.

    Hopefully his relationship with the Ten Commandments will put him in some kind of journey we are supposed to see him in. I find Meliodas the blandest of the main characters, even more than Gowther, who at least does have flaws and creates situations with them.



    I had so low expectations over Elizabeth that her having strong healing powers and decided to walk through a bug storm fearless made me happy. She's the typical ldamsel/love interest, so I never expected more from her. Her standing against others is enough as it is.



    I agree that Hawk coming back was bull. If he was to come back, he shouldn't have died at all.


    I have zero problems with King, however. At least, until we get his own backstory (is he really a fairy? how come he lost his memories?), which will either make of break the character for me.
     
  19. kkck

    kkck MH Senpai

    神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    26,624
    Likes Received:
    8,351
    Country:
    Galactic Empire
    For me the weird part about all of this is that it does not seem like people would currently really have trouble accepting ban. It's one thing when he was an stretch urchin and made a living stealing but right now he is a powerful fighter with every quality to be a productive member of society. If anything during his time as a sin he was seen as something like a hero. Ban's situation right now is that he is intentionally an asshole to everyone. And he clings to those who accept him regardless of that.
     
  20. Xenotosgolgia

    Xenotosgolgia Registered User

    中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    152
    Gender:
    Female
    Country:
    Winterfell
    This thread is simply for those like me who have a major problem with this arc. Talk about your likes, dislikes, or debate on whether something makes sense.
    1.So far my criticism of the manga are it's bland/generic villains.
    2. After the Vaizel situation how the plot becomes a bunch of incoherent pieces stuck together in awkward transition scenes of jumping to one shonen cliche or after another.
    3. The so called twist that feel so mechanical it's like Suzuki is breathing down your neck trying to force you to enjoy it.
    4. The leaps in logic to force things to happen that would've happened sooner or just don't make sense.
     
Loading...