Discussion Elizabeth

How did Elizabeth figure out that she and Meliodas were cursed?


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sobreno

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Elizabeth slapping Meliodas wasn't a comedic moment nor was it a testament of her being even close to his level of power.

We know she's for sure above the level of an average Goddess,but if or how much power she inherited from her Mom has to be even proven and shown.
Meliodas himself has zero power from the DK, Estarossa ( literally zero darkness despite being the son of the DK himself ) too. Meliodas's power as a child proves it ( it was 300 ).
Zeldoris has some borrowed power ( not born with it ), conclusion, the three brothers have nothing specific at birth from the DK. And you are assuming that Elizabeth do? Okay.
 

Rigel

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You do not even know how Hyuuga techniques work. Waste of time.

Elizabeth has no offensive techniques? Ark can be used offensively and Liz has already used it.

Nakaba may be just keeping Elizabeth for the future.
 

sobreno

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I don't need to try anything, you need to improve your understanding and use of English, true and full don't have the same meaning and that's the end of it. Statements like "true power" have been made about Meliodas since the Istar arc, it's still gone far and beyond that 32500 mark and continuing to go higher still.
With what we have so far, Elizabeth has earned as much hype as the goddess who achieves The One and it's so far about "power", since in @FKS 's translation of the summary, there's literally emphasis on the "strongest" archangel praising her. I'm joining @Rigel in advising you to stop dismissing context.
There's no reckon if you know the difference between "true" and "full".
You are just denying the truth at this point, and Elizabeth isn't Meliodas lmao. Merlin stated " her original power ", try to guess what she means by that, come on, it isn't that difficult lol.

Earned so much hype for being praised for her skills in healing, things that she was literally doing in the spoilers, and you are talking about " context ", the irony is strong with you.
Yes, there is a reckoning: https://readms.net/r/the_seven_deadly_sins/258/4953/8
 
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MrSchmitty7

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So we have no understanding of the manga because we have issues with the circumstances regarding her hype because other characters have received similar praise and they have underperformed...

Right... well my manga “instincts” must be dulled then. There’s only one way to look at Elizabeth apparently
 

sobreno

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You do not even know how Hyuuga techniques work. Waste of time.

Elizabeth has no offensive techniques? Ark can be used offensively and Liz has already used it.

Nakaba may be just keeping Elizabeth for the future.
Keep dreaming, she had the perfect opportunity to show off her so-called offensive techniques and failed like the useless princess she is. By doing nothing and not participating in the action like others.
 

FKS

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I don't need to try anything, you need to improve your understanding and use of English, true and full don't have the same meaning and that's the end of it. Statements like "true power" have been made about Meliodas since the Istar arc, it's still gone far and beyond that 32500 mark and continuing to go higher still.
With what we have so far, Elizabeth has earned as much hype as the goddess who achieves The One and it's so far about "power", since in @FKS 's translation of the summary, there's literally emphasis on the "strongest" archangel praising her. I'm joining @Rigel in advising you to stop dismissing context.
There's no retcon if you know the difference between "true" and "full".
Rai posts the summaries in English on NF, so...
 

Undina

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You are just denying the truth at this point, and Elizabeth isn't Meliodas lmao. Merlin stated " her original power ", try to guess what she means by that, come on, it isn't that difficult lol.

Earned so much hype for being praised for her skills in healing, things that she was literally doing in the spoilers, and you are talking about " context ", the irony is strong with you.
Yes, there is a reckoning: https://readms.net/r/the_seven_deadly_sins/258/4953/8
I'm not denying anything, I'm reading the material given and considering its meaning(in English), and Elizabeth is the female co-protagonist with Meliodas, she still gets power development and hype according to the same pattern Meliodas and the rest of the Sins, who are only supporting mains, despite the whole group's title naming the story, have been getting since the beginning. The difference is that her pace is slower for plot and character build diversity. It's the same with the other mains regardless of their gender or species. In fact, some are having it worse.
I don't need to guess, I know "original" can mean "full" as well as "true"; and you keep ignoring the fact that power to these characters means both ability(with subsequent quality fitting the concept of "true") + raw energy/MP(and subsequent quantity, befitting the concept of "full", we still don't have a definitive claim about her higher limits having been reached, on the contrary, the person, who should know herself best, said she doesn't have the power in her current state to stop Meliodas; Merlin can't and doesn't know Elizabeth better than she knows herself, not when she has her memory) and I know well enough that Merlin has had both hits and misses with her assessments, in the same conversation she "retconned" her plea to Elizabeth to awaken her power from the, err, Ravens Arc(? I'm not sure if that's where the post VS Galand discussion fits), that doesn't change the fact that the overall image about Elizabeth is shaping up to her ultimately being/becoming one of the most powerful goddesses, which is stereotypical and predictable and you're allowed to dislike it, because it contradicts your ideals on "shounen" stereotypes(I don't and won't dislike it, since she's the quirky Dark Horse in her Clan, so far), but you have no argument that the foreshadowing and build-up is not there.
So, you can dislike the current developments all you like, they're still happening.

@MrSchmitty7 I don't think there's a problem with your instincts, not as much as there is with your ability to move on or accept the bigger picture as a possibility.
 

MrSchmitty7

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@Undina ive already said I’m willing to look into Elizabeth once she gets some feats. My problem and like the problem that several others have, is that her feats are either one sided (relating to magic only, yet people still make her god status off of one topic) or have several plot holes and or complications.

Even the last bit of “hype evidence” was just destroyed. Everyone argued that Estarossa was a demon prodigy because of his father, yet recently it was revealed that he was a loser.
 

sobreno

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I'm not denying anything, I'm reading the material given and considering it's meaning(in English), and Elizabeth is the female co-protagonist with Meliodas, she still gets power development and hype according to the same pattern Meliodas and the rest of the Sins, who are only supporting mains, despite the whole group's title naming the story, have been getting since the beginning. The difference is that her pace is slower for plot and character build diversity. It's the same with the other mains regardless of their gender or species. In fact, some are having it worse.
I don't need to guess, I know "original" can mean "full" as well as "true"(and you keep ignoring the fact that power to these characters means both ability(with subsequent quality fitting the concept of "true") + raw energy/MP(and subsequent quantity, befitting the concept of "full", we still don't have a definitive claim about her higher limits having been reached, on the contrary, the person who should know herself best, said she doesn't have the power in her current state to stop Meliodas, Merlin can't and doesn't know Elizabeth better than she knows herself, not when she has her memory) and I know well enough that Merlin has had both hits and misses with her assessments, in the same conversation she "retconned" her plea to Elizabeth to awaken her power from the, err, Ravens Arc(? I'm not sure if that's where the post VS Galand discussion fits), that doesn't change the fact that the overall image about Elizabeth is shaping up to her ultimately being/becoming one of the most powerful goddesses, which is stereotypical and predictable and you're allowed to dislike it, because it contradicts your ideals on "shounen" stereotypes(I don't and won't dislike it, since she's the quirky Dark Horse in her Clan, so far), but you have no argument that the foreshadowing and build-up is not there.
So, you can dislike the current developments all you like, they're still happening.

@MrSchmitty7 I don't think there's a problem with your instincts, not as much as there is with your ability to move on or accept the bigger picture as a possibility.
Yes, you are lol, you are the best at twisting words which are in fact pretty simple. Elizabeth is nothing like Meliodas, she never gets any power development, she isn't a fighter, if she was the same, why she isn't a fighter like him? Why doesn't she hold a sword lmao or fight hand to hand like him? Nice try but you failed yet again.

Your mental gymnastics is useless, the context was clear, Merlin is stating that she is counting on her " original " strength, meaning the Goddess strength that she used to have when she was with her lol.
Keep dreaming, she has zero hype to be a dark horse of her Clan in combat ability, your are fanboying too much that you don't even notice it. She almost got killed by Chandler's cheeks lol.
Nothing happened yet, what events are you talking about lmao?
 

Undina

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@Undina ive already said I’m willing to look into Elizabeth once she gets some feats. My problem and like the problem that several others have, is that her feats are either one sided (relating to magic only) or have several plot holes and or complications
All the mains get that at some point, so we either drop the series, or learn to live with what the next reveal brings forth as adding up to the character build. At least Nakaba is trying in some cases to readjust the story as to explain why some stuff was done previously in a certain different way.
You've seen Elizabeth contradicting your earlier assumption that she accepts what squinty is doing to the HKs, but as you see, she's pulling her own moves to allow the humans to perform with help from the AAs and working against the downsides of BoB, to ensure max efficiency when needed.
As for one-sided-ness, it's the same, mages will perform best in magic(remember Merlin and King are worse in physical feats alone, when on their game), physical fighters in the physical aspect, very few characters combine them and even when they do, their main specialty/feature still prevails.
 

FKS

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Moderator Notice:
Please do refrain from insulting the character. Keep your discussion civil.~ FKS
 

Undina

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Yes, you are lol, you are the best at twisting words which are in fact pretty simple. Elizabeth is nothing like Meliodas, she never gets any power development, she isn't a fighter, if she was the same, why she isn't a fighter like him? Why doesn't she hold a sword lmao or fight hand to hand like him? Nice try but you failed yet again.

Your mental gymnastics is useless, the context was clear, Merlin is stating that she is counting on her " original " strength, meaning the Goddess strength that she used to have when she was with her lol.
Keep dreaming, she has zero hype to be a dark horse of her Clan in combat ability, your are fanboying too much that you don't even notice it. She almost got killed by Chandler's cheeks lol.
Nothing happened yet, what events are you talking about lmao?
You already made it not worth it responding to you anymore, you're in clear denial that stuff can change or develop and in other posts you're simply bashing her, so I'll stop from talking to the walls, it makes me look the sort of not funny crazy.
 

MrSchmitty7

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All the mains get that at some point, so we either drop the series, or learn to live with what the next reveal brings forth as adding up to the character build. At least Nakaba is trying in some cases to readjust the story as to explain why some stuff was done previously in a certain different way.
You've seen Elizabeth contradicting your earlier assumption that she accepts what squinty is doing to the HKs, but as you see, she's pulling her own moves to allow the humans to perform with help from the AAs and working against the downsides of BoB, to ensure max efficiency when needed.
As for one-sided-ness, it's the same, mages will perform best in magic(remember Merlin and King are worse in physical feats alone, when on their game), physical fighters in the physical aspect, very few characters combine them and even when they do, their main specialty/feature still prevails.
She still allowed for them to get brainwashed though. Fixing one part of the problem doesn’t solve the overall issue that probably will arise. Plus there are other main characters in other mangas that are no where near as strong as the other mains. Sakura is one example from Naruto. Even Hinata at one point was drastically stronger than her.
In Yona of the Dawn, Yona who is the reincarnation of the Red Dragon God is just a normal human while all the other reincarnations are much more powerful than her. Personally, I’d argue that many popular mangas have a tendency to make the females a lot weaker than the males for some reason by the end game.

And Taizai is different in regards to mages. We’ve seen countless times that many heavy magic user often get ousted when they encounter a physical powerhouse. Gloxinia is an example of this and even Monspeet had to wait for Estarossa to use his own strength to escape
 

sobreno

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You already made it not worth it responding to you anymore, you're in clear denial that stuff can change or develop and in other posts you're simply bashing her, so I'll stop from talking to the walls, it makes me look the sort of not funny crazy.
That is my line really.

You are the one who is in denial here.
 

Undina

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She still allowed for them to get brainwashed though. Fixing one part of the problem doesn’t solve the overall issue that probably will arise. Plus there are other main characters in other mangas that are no where near as strong as the other mains. Sakura is one example from Naruto. Even Hinata at one point was drastically stronger than her.

And Taizai is different in regards to mages. We’ve seen countless times that many heavy magic user often get ousted when they encounter a physical powerhouse. Gloxinia is an example of this and even Monspeet had to wait for Estarossa to use his own strength to escape
Taizai is not Naruto either, so, above everything, we must consider its context.
We've seen the reverse happening in Taizai as well, like in the situation where Merlin got the upper hand even with her low PL and magic stat against Meliodas(she took him by surprise but also de-powered him during the framing), she also helped Gowther knock Dayscanor out, when he was getting dangerously near The One( in VoE) thanks to ability quality adding up to her /her and Gowther's raw magic. Quality of ability and power quantity still go hand in hand to make up someone's prowess and so far we have indications Elizabeth will end up pretty highly ranked, regardless of her willingness to get violent or not.
Oh, and I forgot that the good ole PC still held against the physically impacting mayhem that was Dayscanor/The One VS AM Meliodas. A temporarily superior mage to Merlin took it down, but the girl's back on the rise, so...

As for "allowing the HKs to get brainwashed", weren't they already pretty drunk on their faith in the AAs ever since they met them?(I mean, Nakaba went a bit overkill with the side effect of BoB, but I assume he only took in consideration the light that would put squinty and the other AAs in, not Elizabeth). I hold by my statement the knights had done worse things to themselves with that feast the previous night than Elizabeth not causing chaos among their forces by actively stopping or trying to stop squinty from brainwashing them, it would have clearly split Stigma up and wouldn't have ensured that he didn't get to do it, with no help for the humans against it if she was cut away from the people siding with him, this time), now we have an explanation to why she chose to stay with the S&D team, she's juggling stuff and working the middle-ground for the sake of balance and protecting everyone she cares about. Well, it's not working with the demons fighting against them, but who knows if she has the power to both stop them like she did in the AHW and save them from the humans and AAs taking advantage of it and killing them anyway? As I said long ago when she was chosen as new captain and rep of the Sins and the humans as well, since she did interfere when squinty was trying to manipulate Bartra, she's now getting the chance to politic for Britannia's sake and she's not too shabby, imho.
If you're gonna judge me for taking the side with the lesser evil, I'll tell you it doesn't bother me, at least it saves lives both the GC and DC(and, actually, the humans as well) would've wasted anyway.
 
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Mythoclast

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Eli's combat prowess is pretty laughable in comparison to the Archangels tbh.
Her Holy magic is reasonably potent tho.So that a plus...I guess
 

MrSchmitty7

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Taizai is not Naruto either, so, above everything, we must consider its context.
We've seen the reverse happening in Taizai as well, like in the situation where Merlin got the upper hand even with her low PL and magic stat against Meliodas(she took him by surprise but also de-powered him during the framing), she also helped Gowther knock Dayscanor out, when he was getting dangerously near The One( in VoE) thanks to ability quality adding up to her /her and Gowther's raw magic. Quality of ability and power quantity still go hand in hand to make up someone's prowess and so far we have indications Elizabeth will end up pretty highly ranked, regardless of her willingness to get violent or not.
Oh, and I forgot that the good ole PC still held against the physically impacting mayhem that was Dayscanor/The One VS AM Meliodas. A temporarily superior mage to Merlin took it down, but the girl's back on the rise, so...

As for "allowing the HKs to get brainwashed", weren't they already pretty drunk on their faith in the AAs ever since they met them?(I mean, Nakaba went a bit overkill with the side effect of BoB, but I assume he only took in consideration the light that would put squinty and the other AAs in, not Elizabeth). I hold by my statement the knights had done worse things to themselves with that feast the previous night than Elizabeth not causing chaos among their forces by actively stopping or trying to stop squinty from brainwashing them, it would have clearly split Stigma up and wouldn't have ensured that he didn't get to do it, with no help for the humans against it if she was cut away from the people siding with him, this time), now we have an explanation to why she chose to stay with the S&D team, she's juggling stuff and working the middle-ground for the sake of balance and protecting everyone she cares about. Well, it's not working with the demons fighting against them, but who knows if she has the power to both stop them like she did in the AHW and save them from the humans and AAs taking advantage of it and killing them anyway? As I said long ago when she was chosen as new captain and rep of the Sins and the humans as well, since she did interfere when squinty was trying to manipulate Bartra, she's now getting the chance to politic for Britannia's sake and she's not too shabby, imho.
If you're gonna judge me for taking the side with the lesser evil, I'll tell you it doesn't bother me, at least it saves lives both the GC and DC(and, actually, the humans as well) would've wasted anyway.
Escanor wasn’t close to the one. He wasn’t even in his 11 AM form. You can tell this by the way the shirt fits him, particularly around the arms because it starts to stretch when he nears 11. No such thing happened in VoE. If you’re basing it off of his size, I wouldn’t recommend doing that because Izraf changes sizes several time, and plus his size is a contradiction to the databook information if you go off of those facts

Plus dispelling perfect cube isn’t hard if you know the spell. Even part 1 demonstrates this.

And like you said with Merlin, Mel was weakened and was koed for a long time thanks to Escanor. I don’t count her feats in that case.

So far I’ve yet to see how the hype works for Elizabeth, but conveniently doesn’t for anyone else. Estarossa has hype and he was trashed, Zeldris had DK hype and then he was shown to be not too special. A bunch of other characters had hype and the same thing happened

As for the brainwashing, I’m pretty sure it’s gonna backfire down the road, and I’m probably gonna blame Elizabeth for allowing it. The effects still don’t change the fact that something is wrong in and of its nature. That’s one of the principles of war. For example even if you could save thousands of lives by blowing up a village with only a couple hundred or people, you cannot do that.
 
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Undina

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Escanor wasn’t close to the one. He wasn’t even in his 11 AM form. You can tell this by the way the shirt fits him, particularly around the arms because it starts to stretch when he nears 11. No such thing happened in VoE. If you’re basing it off of his size, I wouldn’t recommend doing that because Izraf changes sizes several time, and plus his size is a contradiction to the databook information if you go off of those facts

Plus dispelling perfect cube isn’t hard if you know the spell. Even part 1 demonstrates this.

And like you said with Merlin, Mel was weakened and was koed for a long time thanks to Escanor. I don’t count her feats in that case.

So far I’ve yet to see how the hype works for Elizabeth, but conveniently doesn’t for anyone else. Estarossa has hype and he was trashed, Zeldris had DK hype and then he was shown to be not too special. A bunch of other characters had hype and the same thing happened

As for the brainwashing, I’m pretty sure it’s gonna backfire down the road, and I’m probably gonna blame Elizabeth for allowing it. The effects still don’t change the fact that something is wrong in and of its nature. That’s one of the principles of war. For example even if you could save thousands of lives by blowing up a village with only a couple hundred or people, you cannot do that.
The situation with VoE Escanor still implied a difference of tens of thousands in the PL between Merlin and Escanor, and she highlighted the difference between Gowther and Escanor by remembering to use PA on the former, considering both Merlin's and Gowther's PLs and subsequent contributing stats to it at that time; my point is that the situation with Strength>Magic can be reversed, especially due to ability quality, it's a general rule with mages in this series and often in the rest of fantasy fiction as well; and the fact remains that PC held those monsters in while they fought like crazy(which had physical impact) and the spell trumped their physical attacks, bounces and collateral effects of spells cast inside it till Meliodas got knocked out and Escanor exited The One, and that PC was a spell cast and supported by someone with a hax quality ability and relatively far lower PL than 2 people with 114 K+ trashing around.
Yet we still get the difference with Elizabeth's slap as Elizabeth used the basic assault available to all the goddesses, the size was greater than what she used on Derrieri, but it wasn't either particularly straining on her(more like too hot to look at directly, through human eyes) or intended as more than a stunning slap to the guy whose immense physical strength she surely acknowledges. The physical strength factors into resistance to even magic attacks, since, yes, he only got a bruised cheek, not a hole in the face, yet was thrown around the room, to the floor and that means that simple ark was enough for increased momentum, since we have no indication Meliodas had specifically relaxed his body to let her even budge his face,regardless what type of hit she would've applied. When you're tense and arguing, as well as trying to restrain someone, you're in fight mode and ready for impacts subconsciously.
And regardless of elemental dynamic, we're back to square one, she still needed serious power to back that ark and make it that effective on someone with AM(?) Meliodas' physical endurance and resistance.

That last part sounds like you just want it to happen, not that it's foreshadowed to, at least admit to it. I doubt Nakaba will make this situation more convoluted than it already was.
And as far as we know, she didn't blow anyone up, she actually saved them from being blown up by either their hubris and or the side effects of someone else(squinty) trying to abuse them.
You're seriously dismissing the negative effects of absolute truth in circumstances like active war and among necessary allies.
You still haven't given me one serious scenario in which the Sins and her would've had better chances at protecting the people of Britannia as well as reaching their goals at saving Meliodas and moderating the influence of the GC who have awakened and started acting regardless of her actions( and that based on their own motivations), by abiding the ideal of absolute truth which in the given situation would've only led to chaos and failure for the Sins to keep the "British people" as an united front since the AAs were making their moves independently and have been recruiting quite aggressively.
Also, was Elizabeth given the skill to cancel BoB and I missed that? Because you're only questioning her actions and not trying at all to explain how does your opinion or judgement help in the given in universe circumstances the Sins find themselves in.
You should know that uncontrolled idealistic actions/reactions, especially if they knowingly lead to lives being endangered or lost, are far more immoral than cautious half truths or manipulating an opponent's move to work to your and the people caught in the middle's favour.
Also, I'm pretty sure that if she'd spoken up before Ludociel got to make his move(and maybe move out to Camelot as well, since we still don't know if he, Escanor and Merlin are still around) and it resulted in the Sins ending up on the outside or even with open animosity from Stigma, with the AAs still in control of the humans, you would judge her even harsher and also call her stupid. Some other people as well, so, let's be honest. In the bigger picture involving all the current introduced characters, what Elizabeth did was wiser and smarter than opening an obvious rift between the AAs(+brainwashed humans) and the Sins from the start.
 
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MrSchmitty7

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The situation with VoE Escanor still implied a difference of tens of thousands in the PL between Merlin and Escanor, and she highlighted the difference between Gowther and Escanor by remembering to use PA on the former, considering both Merlin's and Gowther's PLs and subsequent contributing stats to it at that time; my point is that the situation with Strength>Magic can be reversed, especially due to ability quality, it's a general rule with mages in this series and often in the rest of fantasy fiction as well; and the fact remains that PC held those monsters in while they fought like crazy(which had physical impact) and the spell trumped their physical attacks, bounces and collateral effects of spells cast inside it till Meliodas got knocked out and Escanor exited The One, and that PC was a spell cast and supported by someone with a hax quality ability and relatively far lower PL than 2 people with 114 K+ trashing around.
Yet we still get the difference with Elizabeth's slap as Elizabeth used the basic assault available to all the goddesses, the size was greater than what she used on Derrieri, but it wasn't either particularly straining on her(more like too hot to look at directly, through human eyes) or intended as more than a stunning slap to the guy whose immense physical strength she surely acknowledges. The physical strength factors into resistance to even magic attacks, since, yes, he only got a bruised cheek, not a hole in the face, yet was thrown around the room, to the floor and that means that simple ark was enough for increased momentum, since we have no indication Meliodas had specifically relaxed his body to let her even budge his face,regardless what type of hit she would've applied. When you're tense and arguing, as well as trying to restrain someone, you're in fight mode and ready for impacts subconsciously.
And regardless of elemental dynamic, we're back to square one, she still needed serious power to back that ark and make it that effective on someone with AM(?) Meliodas' physical endurance and resistance.
Well the thing is Gowther’s magic isn’t a damaging type of magic. It’s a magic that can only be countered by a spirit stat. Durabilty and other factors don’t matter with it.

Some spells have nothing to do with power level, but have different qualifications for usage. Not all of them depend on power alone. Deldry’s love drive is another example of a magic that works regardless of power level.

The Elizabeth ark thing doesn’t make any sense in a logical usage. It’s weird to assume that she has more force behind her attacks than 114K Escanor. Like people have said virtually all shonen mangas have a scene where the main character gets bodied and there’s also the fact the ark is particularly deadly against demons.
 
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