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Discussion Erza Scarlet Thread

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This thread is for discussing Erza Scarlet generally. Feel free to discuss about Titania!
 
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iDooom

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I don’t get this. Some people are saying Tartaros Natsu is obviously stronger than Tartaros Erza. Or that in Alvarez arc Erza is about GMG Jura level.

Consider that in Tartaros:

Natsu had a hard time against Jackal, despite being able to eat his explosions. Jackal, who was one of the weakest of the 9DG, was pretty much a weaker version of Azuma (an opponent Erza fought two arcs and a timeskip ago). Azuma far surpasses Jackal in intelligence, versatility, speed, and even destructive power with Terra Clamare

LFD Natsu straight up lost to Franmalth and had to be saved by Lucy. Franmalth was basically a weaker version of base Hades and didn't even use spells like Amaterasu 100, showing Makarov >> Natsu.

Natsu was pretty much on par with Tempesta, who was fodderized by Laxus in their first fight. This pretty much shows that someone of Jura's level >> Natsu.

LFD Natsu + Sting + Rogue were getting owned by base Mard Geer. Even DF Natsu's strongest attack barely did anything to Mard Geer.

On the other hand, SO Erza was a bit below GMG Jura level. Tartaros Erza defeated demon-buffed Minerva and fought on par with the strongest of the 9DG.

Pre-time skip Erza ~ weaker WS (Jose, Jellal, Jura), also shown in Pandemonium.

Also consider that Minerva casually blocked Natsu's LFD punch: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/283/14. Yagdo Rigora was strong enough to surprise Jura: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/312/17, making it likely stronger than Orga's lightning attack (~1/2 Jura's attack on MPF). Kagura and non-SO Erza tanked Yagdo Rigora with no problem.

If you multiply this by 2 (for SO), should get in ballpark of mid-level WS (Makarov, GMG Jura).

In Alvarez arc, this gets even more ridiculous because Erza just fought 1v1 against (and beat) someone that Makarov was too scared to fight against. Someone that Gajeel, Natsu, and Wendy were preparing to fight in a 3v1. Unless you think GMG Jura >> Makarov, this clearly indicates that Alvarez Erza > GMG Jura.

Plus, don’t forget about http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/438/16.:)
 

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I don’t get this. Some people are saying Tartaros Natsu is obviously stronger than Tartaros Erza. Or that in Alvarez arc Erza is about GMG Jura level.

Consider that in Tartaros:

Natsu had a hard time against Jackal, despite being able to eat his explosions. Jackal, who was one of the weakest of the 9DG, was pretty much a weaker version of Azuma (an opponent Erza fought two arcs and a timeskip ago). Azuma far surpasses Jackal in intelligence, versatility, speed, and even destructive power with Terra Clamare

LFD Natsu straight up lost to Franmalth and had to be saved by Lucy. Franmalth was basically a weaker version of base Hades and didn't even use spells like Amaterasu 100, showing Makarov >> Natsu.

Natsu was pretty much on par with Tempesta, who was fodderized by Laxus in their first fight. This pretty much shows that someone of Jura's level >> Natsu.

LFD Natsu + Sting + Rogue were getting owned by base Mard Geer. Even DF Natsu's strongest attack barely did anything to Mard Geer.

On the other hand, SO Erza was a bit below GMG Jura level. Tartaros Erza defeated demon-buffed Minerva and fought on par with the strongest of the 9DG.

Pre-time skip Erza ~ weaker WS (Jose, Jellal, Jura), also shown in Pandemonium.

Also consider that Minerva casually blocked Natsu's LFD punch: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/283/14. Yagdo Rigora was strong enough to surprise Jura: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/312/17, making it likely stronger than Orga's lightning attack (~1/2 Jura's attack on MPF). Kagura and non-SO Erza tanked Yagdo Rigora with no problem.

If you multiply this by 2 (for SO), should get in ballpark of mid-level WS (Makarov, GMG Jura).

In Alvarez arc, this gets even more ridiculous because Erza just fought 1v1 against (and beat) someone that Makarov was too scared to fight against. Someone that Gajeel, Natsu, and Wendy were preparing to fight in a 3v1. Unless you think GMG Jura >> Makarov, this clearly indicates that Alvarez Erza > GMG Jura.

Plus, don’t forget about http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/438/16.:)
I think it's because in a versus match where things like, PiS and PoF are restricted, people believe that Natsu would wreck Erza because all of her fights of late seem to require her to win because of plot and don't actually make any sense.
Also Base Hades > TartarosErza, there is no doubt about that.
 

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I don’t get this. Some people are saying Tartaros Natsu is obviously stronger than Tartaros Erza. Or that in Alvarez arc Erza is about GMG Jura level.

Consider that in Tartaros:

Natsu had a hard time against Jackal, despite being able to eat his explosions. Jackal, who was one of the weakest of the 9DG, was pretty much a weaker version of Azuma (an opponent Erza fought two arcs and a timeskip ago). Azuma far surpasses Jackal in intelligence, versatility, speed, and even destructive power with Terra Clamare

LFD Natsu straight up lost to Franmalth and had to be saved by Lucy. Franmalth was basically a weaker version of base Hades and didn't even use spells like Amaterasu 100, showing Makarov >> Natsu.

Natsu was pretty much on par with Tempesta, who was fodderized by Laxus in their first fight. This pretty much shows that someone of Jura's level >> Natsu.

LFD Natsu + Sting + Rogue were getting owned by base Mard Geer. Even DF Natsu's strongest attack barely did anything to Mard Geer.

On the other hand, SO Erza was a bit below GMG Jura level. Tartaros Erza defeated demon-buffed Minerva and fought on par with the strongest of the 9DG.

Pre-time skip Erza ~ weaker WS (Jose, Jellal, Jura), also shown in Pandemonium.

Also consider that Minerva casually blocked Natsu's LFD punch: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/283/14. Yagdo Rigora was strong enough to surprise Jura: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/312/17, making it likely stronger than Orga's lightning attack (~1/2 Jura's attack on MPF). Kagura and non-SO Erza tanked Yagdo Rigora with no problem.

If you multiply this by 2 (for SO), should get in ballpark of mid-level WS (Makarov, GMG Jura).

In Alvarez arc, this gets even more ridiculous because Erza just fought 1v1 against (and beat) someone that Makarov was too scared to fight against. Someone that Gajeel, Natsu, and Wendy were preparing to fight in a 3v1. Unless you think GMG Jura >> Makarov, this clearly indicates that Alvarez Erza > GMG Jura.

Plus, don’t forget about http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/438/16.
I liked your analysis of Natsu and Erza's abilities a lot, but you have made some mistakes throughout all this.

First of all, I agree with you that Tartaros Erza is stronger than Tartaros Natsu, but I don't see your point on Current Erza. I'll get to this point later though.

Consider this, once Natsu entered LFD mode, he easily won against Etherious Jackal, which proves that Tartaros Natsu could probably take out Azuma high diff.

I kinda agree with you on this one, but you have to consider that Makarov lost mid diff against Hades, which makes the result of Makarov vs Franmalth unclear, and that Natsu still has DF, which probably gives him enough power to take out Makarov (I'd prefer Makarov = DF Natsu).

LFD Natsu was on Etherious Tempesta's level. Tempesta was two-shotted by Laxus, not Etherious Tempesta. I'd still say that Natsu is below Jura's level though, so not a big problem here.

Mard Geer was much stronger than anyone Erza ever fought with, so I don't get your point. You also have to see that DF Natsu actually had the ability to damage a City level character.

SO Erza showed us nothing that would put her just below Jura's level. She nullified Minerva's haxed magic and then managed to mid diff her with a MCB busting spell. Nakagami Starlight is nothing Jura couldn't tank, defend against or dodge, seeing that he has HS+ reaction speed. Jura has shown a Small City buster in Mt. Rumbling Fuji (I think, I'm not sure on the calcs) and he's shown the ability to create town level barriers, so no, I can't say SO Erza is just below Jura. She's at least someone Jura could mid diff.

Pre-timeskip Erza was below Jellal, Jura and Jose. She was never on par with them and this isn't proof that she's on par with GMG Jura.

Minerva blocked LFD Natsu's punch, potentially a small town buster, via hax, which Erza was shown to nullify in her battle via Nakagami Armor. This doesn't prove that Erza is above LFD Natsu, only that she has more conditions to battle against haxed battles, seeing that she is a haxed battler herself.

Yagdo Rigora is likely a MCB buster, as is Orga's lightning attack, which makes both Kagura and Erza MCB+ tanks. Nothing Jura can't beat. Also, Orga's lightning attack against Jura was actually a town buster, which scales to Jura.

Second Origin doesn't work like that. Magic Power doubles, but your stats will likely not increase like that, especially stats that require physical strength, such as stamina and durability.

None of these things put Erza on Jura's level, or even near, but they do put her above base Natsu and around LFD Natsu's level, which I agree with you on. DF Natsu is above Tartaros Erza though.

For post-timeskip: Although Erza was keeping up with Ajeel, once he got serious, he low-diffed her, making your point invalid. She beat him due to his durability being below Town level, which made him invulnerable to Jupiter (outside help) and Nakagami Armor (hax spell that ignores Sand Body). This doesn't put Erza on Ajeel's level, it only does the opposite, which is making her a tier below him.

And finally, GMG Jura is indeed above Makarov and he could probably give Ajeel a high diff battle. Another mistake you're making is that matching someone via hax doesn't necessarily mean that you're on someone else's level, when you've shown smaller feats and when your hax deson't work with everyone. GMG Jura is still above Current Erza.
I think it's because in a versus match where things like, PiS and PoF are restricted, people believe that Natsu would wreck Erza because all of her fights of late seem to require her to win because of plot and don't actually make any sense.
Also Base Hades > TartarosErza, there is no doubt about that.
Look who it is :derp
 

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I don’t get this. Some people are saying Tartaros Natsu is obviously stronger than Tartaros Erza. Or that in Alvarez arc Erza is about GMG Jura level.

Consider that in Tartaros:

Natsu had a hard time against Jackal, despite being able to eat his explosions. Jackal, who was one of the weakest of the 9DG, was pretty much a weaker version of Azuma (an opponent Erza fought two arcs and a timeskip ago). Azuma far surpasses Jackal in intelligence, versatility, speed, and even destructive power with Terra Clamare

LFD Natsu straight up lost to Franmalth and had to be saved by Lucy. Franmalth was basically a weaker version of base Hades and didn't even use spells like Amaterasu 100, showing Makarov >> Natsu.

Natsu was pretty much on par with Tempesta, who was fodderized by Laxus in their first fight. This pretty much shows that someone of Jura's level >> Natsu.

LFD Natsu + Sting + Rogue were getting owned by base Mard Geer. Even DF Natsu's strongest attack barely did anything to Mard Geer.

On the other hand, SO Erza was a bit below GMG Jura level. Tartaros Erza defeated demon-buffed Minerva and fought on par with the strongest of the 9DG.

Pre-time skip Erza ~ weaker WS (Jose, Jellal, Jura), also shown in Pandemonium.

Also consider that Minerva casually blocked Natsu's LFD punch: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/283/14. Yagdo Rigora was strong enough to surprise Jura: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/312/17, making it likely stronger than Orga's lightning attack (~1/2 Jura's attack on MPF). Kagura and non-SO Erza tanked Yagdo Rigora with no problem.

If you multiply this by 2 (for SO), should get in ballpark of mid-level WS (Makarov, GMG Jura).

In Alvarez arc, this gets even more ridiculous because Erza just fought 1v1 against (and beat) someone that Makarov was too scared to fight against. Someone that Gajeel, Natsu, and Wendy were preparing to fight in a 3v1. Unless you think GMG Jura >> Makarov, this clearly indicates that Alvarez Erza > GMG Jura.

Plus, don’t forget about http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/438/16.:)
I agree that Erza is underrated. But your explanation has so many flaws.

First of all, Jackal is definitely stronger than Azuma. I did not like the end of Tenrou Arc because there was so much nonsense. A tree giving Fairy Tail power... Really?? If it was that easy, Acnologia, Zeref, or even the Spriggans should just go uproot it and burn it. I would disregard this because I believe this was written when Hiro Mashima intended to end Fairy Tail. Then he probably changed his mind but then introduced Mavis' PoF Fairy Sphere which also didn't make sense. For those who think Erza has a lot of PoF, look at this... What I'm trying to say here is that Azuma is not that strong because his power to uproot that tree was just OP and nonsense.

Second of all, we can't say with certainty that Makarov > Natsu. You used the example of LFD Natsu who lost to Franmalth who is also weaker than Hades. I don't disagree with this. But don't forget DF Natsu. I'm not sure if Makarov can beat that.

Third of all, someone on Jura's level > Natsu is also not necessarily true. Like I said, Dragon Force Natsu may well be able to defeat Jura because DF Natsu is stronger than Laxus who defeated Jura.

Lastly, although I agree Erza is strong, I wouldn't say she beat Ajeel. It was a stalemate but technically Erza would've lost because she got help from the Jupiter Cannon and a little bit from Natsu but not really. She was definitely being overwhelmed and was even near death.
 

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My opinion is Tartarus Erza > Tartarus Natsu (w/o DF)

Tartarus Erza would beat LFD/base Natsu probably around high difficulty maybe less. BUT you can say that Tartarus Natsu is in the same league as Tartarus Erza if you give the feat of dragon force into his repertoire. Some could argue this pushes Natsu past Erza.

For example if Erza and Natsu fought at the end of Tartarus, fully healed, Erza would dominate 60% of the fight while Natsu gets 40% (my guess). When Natsu realises he can't win in base/LFD and then enters Dragon Force it simply comes down to 2 things - (a) how long can Natsu keep DF up, and (b) can Erza outlast Natsu while he is in DF (she'd have no way of stopping or evading Natsu in DF, she'd also likely be on the receiving end of Crimson Lotus Phoenix Blade).

Right now Erza is in the same league as Jura/Jellal or maybe even Gildarts as of Tartarus. Not sure if she'd beat them but whoever wins it would be high difficulty.

Reason why I think Erza gets underrated
- She gets compared to Mirajane a lot. This is either Erza downgrading or Mira upgrading (or both). Anyways Erza is above Mira until Mira actually shows anything to suggest she could equal Erza
- People bash Erza for PoF or BS plot armor stuff. These are often exaggerations but I do understand what people are getting at when they bash Erza they just go too far.
- Her moves have low AoE so can be misinterpreted as 'weaker'.
 

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I kinda agree with you on this one, but you have to consider that Makarov lost mid diff against Hades, which makes the result of Makarov vs Franmalth unclear, and that Natsu still has DF, which probably gives him enough power to take out Makarov (I'd prefer Makarov = DF Natsu).

Makarov nullified Amaterasu 28 and survived A100 where Natsu was pretty much incapacitated by A28, so I would say Makarov > LFD Natsu. By Tartaros Natsu, I am referring to base/LFD natsu, not DF natsu. He has not shown the capacity of using DF whenever he feels like.

Mard Geer was much stronger than anyone Erza ever fought with, so I don't get your point. You also have to see that DF Natsu actually had the ability to damage a City level character.

Base/LFD Natsu didn't show anything particularly impressive against Mard Geer.

SO Erza showed us nothing that would put her just below Jura's level. She nullified Minerva's haxed magic and then managed to mid diff her with a MCB busting spell. Nakagami Starlight is nothing Jura couldn't tank, defend against or dodge, seeing that he has HS+ reaction speed. Jura has shown a Small City buster in Mt. Rumbling Fuji (I think, I'm not sure on the calcs) and he's shown the ability to create town level barriers, so no, I can't say SO Erza is just below Jura. She's at least someone Jura could mid diff.

What makes Minerva's magic hax? And where are these calcs coming from? I doubt Jura can tank Nakagami Starlight without significant injuries.

Pre-timeskip Erza was below Jellal, Jura and Jose. She was never on par with them and this isn't proof that she's on par with GMG Jura.

Erza showed slightly better feats against the OS than Jura (defeating Midnight as opposed to Brain, dodging Racer, etc.). And Jellal/Jose clearly stated that Erza was WS level.

Minerva blocked LFD Natsu's punch, potentially a small town buster, via hax, which Erza was shown to nullify in her battle via Nakagami Armor. This doesn't prove that Erza is above LFD Natsu, only that she has more conditions to battle against haxed battles, seeing that she is a haxed battler herself.

I don't understand why Minerva blocking Natsu's punch is "hax". Isn't she just covering her hands in magic? And if nothing else, blocking the attack should be a speed feat.

Yagdo Rigora is likely a MCB buster, as is Orga's lightning attack, which makes both Kagura and Erza MCB+ tanks. Nothing Jura can't beat. Also, Orga's lightning attack against Jura was actually a town buster, which scales to Jura.

If Jura can easily beat it, why did he express surprise at Yagdo Rigora but not at Orga's lightning attack?

Second Origin doesn't work like that. Magic Power doubles, but your stats will likely not increase like that, especially stats that require physical strength, such as stamina and durability.

Not so sure about that. If that was the case, Natsu/Gray/Juvia/Wendy would be outsped or have bad durability compared to opponents of similar magical power. Which isn't what happened.

None of these things put Erza on Jura's level, or even near, but they do put her above base Natsu and around LFD Natsu's level, which I agree with you on. DF Natsu is above Tartaros Erza though.

This should clearly put Erza above LFD Natsu.

For post-timeskip: Although Erza was keeping up with Ajeel, once he got serious, he low-diffed her, making your point invalid. She beat him due to his durability being below Town level, which made him invulnerable to Jupiter (outside help) and Nakagami Armor (hax spell that ignores Sand Body). This doesn't put Erza on Ajeel's level, it only does the opposite, which is making her a tier below him.

Erza forcing Ajeel to use his strongest spell should make the fight mid-high diff at least.

And finally, GMG Jura is indeed above Makarov and he could probably give Ajeel a high diff battle. Another mistake you're making is that matching someone via hax doesn't necessarily mean that you're on someone else's level, when you've shown smaller feats and when your hax deson't work with everyone.

GMG Jura is still above Current Erza.

Evidence?
I agree that Erza is underrated. But your explanation has so many flaws.

First of all, Jackal is definitely stronger than Azuma.

Evidence?

Second of all, we can't say with certainty that Makarov > Natsu. You used the example of LFD Natsu who lost to Franmalth who is also weaker than Hades. I don't disagree with this. But don't forget DF Natsu. I'm not sure if Makarov can beat that.

Not considering DF.

Third of all, someone on Jura's level > Natsu is also not necessarily true. Like I said, Dragon Force Natsu may well be able to defeat Jura because DF Natsu is stronger than Laxus who defeated Jura.

Lastly, although I agree Erza is strong, I wouldn't say she beat Ajeel. It was a stalemate but technically Erza would've lost because she got help from the Jupiter Cannon and a little bit from Natsu but not really. She was definitely being overwhelmed and was even near death.
Why does everyone forget Marin interfering in the fight? Allowing Ajeel free attacks on Erza for a few minutes.
 

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Why does everyone forget Marin interfering in the fight? Allowing Ajeel free attacks on Erza for a few minutes.
Well, Erza was already seemingly overwhelmed by Ajeel prior to Marin's interference but then, Erza even needed a distraction from Natsu and Jupiter Cannon to make the battle a stalemate, although, I get where you're getting at.

In response to your statement, Evidence?, the reason why I say Jackal is stronger than Azuma is because he outclasses him in speed, so he'll dodge all of Azuma's attacks while throwing Exploding Curse Bombs on him which will wear him out and eventually kill him. This seems like my opinion right? Here is another better reason. Jackal overwhelmed Natsu in the beginning and became even stronger in Etherious Form. Note that Tartaros is after GMG in which Natsu got his second origin making him way stronger than when he was in Tenrou Island. Now if you look at the Team Natsu + Laxus fight against Hades, you can see that Tenrou Natsu's power isn't too far behind Tenrou Erza. Meanwhile, Tenrou Erza defeated Azuma. Once again, due to the timeskip differences, it makes sense that Jackal is stronger than Azuma. Besides, out of the 3 subgroups of the Balam Alliance, Tartaros is the most feared and powerful. Therefore, the 9 Demon Gates > 7 Kin of Purgatory. Hades is really the only strong one in Grimoire Heart.

Replying to your statement, Not considering DF., I would agree that Makarov might have the edge over Natsu. Sorry, didn't know that you were excluding DF.
 

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Tartaros Erza is pretty ridiculous, if you believe Kyouka's stats on these imaginary playing cards from vol 46:



(The stats are Attack, Defense, Speed, Intelligence, and Curse Power. Kyouka can increase her stats by 100 per turn, Sayla can double her ATK, Trafuzar can triple his DEF, etc.)

Dat Mard Geer tho.

OTOH, it feels like Erza hasn't gotten any stronger over the timeskip, which is worrisome for the odds of a non-crap fight with Dimaria.
 

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Why does everyone forget Marin interfering in the fight? Allowing Ajeel free attacks on Erza for a few minutes.
>Yeah, I pretty much agree with you on Makarov being stronger than Natsu.
> True, it's not a factor that puts him above Erza.
> Minerva's magic doesn't focus on destruction, it's pretty much just controlling the space surrounding you. This means that she can easily create barriers and such (when she defended against Natsu), which Erza nullified via Nakagami Armor. Nakagami Starlight being MCB level comes from the fact that Minerva has never tanked attacks stronger than MCB busters, meaning that we can't scale Nakagami Starlight beyond MCB+ level. Jura's town level barriers come from the fact that Rock Mountain (Jura' strongest defensive spell) managed to nullify Grand Chariot, a town buster. Rumbling Mt. Fuji's calc was just random, it's probably around Small Town level via scaling with Orga's lightning attack in MPF, which was a MCB buster IIRC.
> Erza and Jura were pretty much equal during the Nirvana arc, because while Erza defeated Midnight high diff, Jura defeated Brain mid diff. However, that doesn't show that GMG Erza is around GMG Jura's power level, because scaling can't be applied here.
> IIRC, Minerva nullified the punch rather than blocking it with physical strength. I could be wrong though. That should be a reaction speed feat and a defense feat.
> Surprise isn't a deciding factor. Jura dodged Orga's attacks while he was just watching Minerva casting Yagdo Rigora. We saw Jura easily defend against Laxus' Heavenly Halberd, so why wouldn't he do the same with Yagdo Rigora?
> I don't see what sense it would make for them to become faster and more durable, since those are physical stats (just goes to show that Second Origin is such a badly explained power-up). Besides, they didn't even open their Second Origin container, so what happen in GMG with them was pretty much just PiS.
> I agree on that point.
> The whole fight before Jupiter? Yes, I'd say it was a mid diff. The problem with that battle was that it didn't show any power development from Erza. She showcased new armors to counter the opponent, but in powerscaling, she's pretty much the same.
> In the battle against Ajeel, Erza was exploitting his weaknesses rather than using her powers. These armors aren't really applied in powerscaling threads (except for Nakagami Armor) since they don't differ in power, but yet in abilities. She hasn't shown armor to counter every power, so different armors are only factors in versus threads. This why I still rank Jura above Erza.
 
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Why does everyone forget Marin interfering in the fight? Allowing Ajeel free attacks on Erza for a few minutes.
This gets overlooked I find, Erza took damage in this time sapping at her energy. Still it's not going to rob Erza of a way of victory. What this means is if Marin isn't there I am assuming it goes back to Erza vs Ajeel straight up, so it just makes the fight faster.

Another thing that gets overlooked (this supports Ajeel's power) is that Ajeel fought in the sky. This robs him the use of a few pretty big spells. Given Erza's powers don't have a great AoE it would be much harder for her if Ajeel is spamming Sand Monster, Ant Lions pit and Sands of Death in rapid succession like he did in Alvarez.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
OTOH, it feels like Erza hasn't gotten any stronger over the timeskip, which is worrisome for the odds of a non-crap fight with Dimaria.
It will feel like she hasn't got stronger because Erza's moves don't get any bigger (speaking of AoE) but her moves do get stronger. E.g Nakagami Starlight gives someone like Ajeel in this arc the same type of damage it gave Minerva in GMG. Ajeel's durability is much higher. This might be a poor example given the hax of Nakagami but I just can't think of others sorry.

Unless Di Maria is a bit weaker than Ajeel, Erza shouldn't be able to fight on equal terms with Di Maria (I assume she is just a spriggan level Erza). She'll need help like against Ajeel.
 

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Well, Erza was already seemingly overwhelmed by Ajeel prior to Marin's interference but then, Erza even needed a distraction from Natsu and Jupiter Cannon to make the battle a stalemate, although, I get where you're getting at.

In response to your statement, Evidence?, the reason why I say Jackal is stronger than Azuma is because he outclasses him in speed, so he'll dodge all of Azuma's attacks while throwing Exploding Curse Bombs on him which will wear him out and eventually kill him. This seems like my opinion right? Here is another better reason. Jackal overwhelmed Natsu in the beginning and became even stronger in Etherious Form. Note that Tartaros is after GMG in which Natsu got his second origin making him way stronger than when he was in Tenrou Island. Now if you look at the Team Natsu + Laxus fight against Hades, you can see that Tenrou Natsu's power isn't too far behind Tenrou Erza. Meanwhile, Tenrou Erza defeated Azuma. Once again, due to the timeskip differences, it makes sense that Jackal is stronger than Azuma. Besides, out of the 3 subgroups of the Balam Alliance, Tartaros is the most feared and powerful. Therefore, the 9 Demon Gates > 7 Kin of Purgatory. Hades is really the only strong one in Grimoire Heart.
Azuma is actually faster than Jackal since he's scaled with Erza. Also, he has better attack potency (Terra Clamare) and better durability. Erza had to wear her logic-defying armor to counter Azuma, since what we really saw was a high diff battle for Azuma (overall this is).
Timeskip differences are irrelevant to powerscaling threads when you have other more important factors such as scaling and feats.
The 9 Demon Gates being stronger than the 7 Kin of Purgatory isn't a valid point here, since Jackal was one of the weakest 9DG while Azuma was one of the stronger 7KP.

Tartaros Erza is pretty ridiculous, if you believe Kyouka's stats on these imaginary playing cards from vol 46:



(The stats are Attack, Defense, Speed, Intelligence, and Curse Power. Kyouka can increase her stats by 100 per turn, Sayla can double her ATK, Trafuzar can triple his DEF, etc.)

Dat Mard Geer tho.

OTOH, it feels like Erza hasn't gotten any stronger over the timeskip, which is worrisome for the odds of a non-crap fight with Dimaria.
Could you translate the stats, please? It's kinda hard to believe that the middle stat is speed...

My opinion is Tartarus Erza > Tartarus Natsu (w/o DF)

Tartarus Erza would beat LFD/base Natsu probably around high difficulty maybe less. BUT you can say that Tartarus Natsu is in the same league as Tartarus Erza if you give the feat of dragon force into his repertoire. Some could argue this pushes Natsu past Erza.

For example if Erza and Natsu fought at the end of Tartarus, fully healed, Erza would dominate 60% of the fight while Natsu gets 40% (my guess). When Natsu realises he can't win in base/LFD and then enters Dragon Force it simply comes down to 2 things - (a) how long can Natsu keep DF up, and (b) can Erza outlast Natsu while he is in DF (she'd have no way of stopping or evading Natsu in DF, she'd also likely be on the receiving end of Crimson Lotus Phoenix Blade).

Right now Erza is in the same league as Jura/Jellal or maybe even Gildarts as of Tartarus. Not sure if she'd beat them but whoever wins it would be high difficulty.

Reason why I think Erza gets underrated
- She gets compared to Mirajane a lot. This is either Erza downgrading or Mira upgrading (or both). Anyways Erza is above Mira until Mira actually shows anything to suggest she could equal Erza
- People bash Erza for PoF or BS plot armor stuff. These are often exaggerations but I do understand what people are getting at when they bash Erza they just go too far.
- Her moves have low AoE so can be misinterpreted as 'weaker'.


Nice analysis! I'd say Erza can't outlast DF Natsu, because his Secret Art is scaled to Small City level (scaled with Mard's durability) and that's more than Erza can tank.

I consider Erza being around Jellal's level speculation, because she hasn't really gotten much stronger.
I agree on Erza > Mira and on the AoE comment. Her moves have to be scaled to the opponent's durability, which most people don't do.

This gets overlooked I find, Erza took damage in this time sapping at her energy. Still it's not going to rob Erza of a way of victory. What this means is if Marin isn't there I am assuming it goes back to Erza vs Ajeel straight up, so it just makes the fight faster.

Another thing that gets overlooked (this supports Ajeel's power) is that Ajeel fought in the sky. This robs him the use of a few pretty big spells. Given Erza's powers don't have a great AoE it would be much harder for her if Ajeel is spamming Sand Monster, Ant Lions pit and Sands of Death in rapid succession like he did in Alvarez.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---


It will feel like she hasn't got stronger because Erza's moves don't get any bigger (speaking of AoE) but her moves do get stronger. E.g Nakagami Starlight gives someone like Ajeel in this arc the same type of damage it gave Minerva in GMG. Ajeel's durability is much higher. This might be a poor example given the hax of Nakagami but I just can't think of others sorry.

Unless Di Maria is a bit weaker than Ajeel, Erza shouldn't be able to fight on equal terms with Di Maria (I assume she is just a spriggan level Erza). She'll need help like against Ajeel.
I see non-serious Ajeel vs Erza as a high diff battle for Ajeel and a draw with full intel for Erza. Sand World Ajeel pretty much stomps Erza due to his virtual omnipresence and intangibility within the move's range.

I agree on the second point.

That's difficult to see for two reasons:
- Although Ajeel is stronger than Minerva, he doesn't have better durability feats than her (failed to tank Jupiter), thus it doesn't show that Nakagami Starlight's gotten stronger.
- Nakagami Starlight is a hax move as you said.

I see a fair Dimaria vs Erza (by fair I mean both bloodlusted, no restrictions and full intel for both) as I see Sand World Ajeel vs Erza. It's a low diff battle.
 

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I consider Erza being around Jellal's level speculation, because she hasn't really gotten much stronger.
It is speculation. What I really did here is try and pick a power level that Erza would fall into. Rough power levels pre-TS is Heavenly Kings > Gildarts > Jellal/Jura/Laxus > Erza. Not sure if she qualifies to Heavenly Kings level (and I am not sure if Gildarts isn't HK level he might actually be this strong) on her feats. I definitely feel she is stronger, so I put her with Jellal. This is by no means accurate just trying to make it convenient and keep it simple.

I agree on Erza > Mira and on the AoE comment. Her moves have to be scaled to the opponent's durability, which most people don't do.
Yes for someone like Natsu you can tell simply by AoE, but for Erza it's damage dealt out that's key.

That's difficult to see for two reasons:
- Although Ajeel is stronger than Minerva, he doesn't have better durability feats than her (failed to tank Jupiter), thus it doesn't show that Nakagami Starlight's gotten stronger.
- Nakagami Starlight is a hax move as you said.
Durability for Ajeel v Minerva I look at it like this...
Without feats: Durability is something I find is always extraordinarily high with top tiers. Before the TS everyone above Erza in power had durability above Minerva's. It's not directly proportional but there is a pretty strong link that more powerful people have higher durability, imo enough to make the assumption that the durability of someone several tiers above Tartarus Erza is going to have much greater durability than Minerva.
- Minerva is not a powerhouse in durability
- Ajeel blocked a slash from Erza in Wind God armor no damage. Idk if Minerva could.
- He did hype himself to tank Laxus nuke but August himself implies he gets destroyed so this is a moot point.

As for the hax I think Nakagami just gives her a chance to hit the body. It removes their use of their territory/sand magics, so it's giving Erza a clean hit on their body. If the damage is the same and the durability is different the inference of Erza improving holds. This hinges of Ajeel > Minerva for durability, I see it as Ajeel as much stronger in this regard.
 

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Azuma is actually faster than Jackal since he's scaled with Erza. Also, he has better attack potency (Terra Clamare) and better durability. Erza had to wear her logic-defying armor to counter Azuma, since what we really saw was a high diff battle for Azuma (overall this is).
Timeskip differences are irrelevant to powerscaling threads when you have other more important factors such as scaling and feats.
The 9 Demon Gates being stronger than the 7 Kin of Purgatory isn't a valid point here, since Jackal was one of the weakest 9DG while Azuma was one of the stronger 7KP.

I see non-serious Ajeel vs Erza as a high diff battle for Ajeel and a draw with full intel for Erza. Sand World Ajeel pretty much stomps Erza due to his virtual omnipresence and intangibility within the move's range.

I agree on the second point.

That's difficult to see for two reasons:
- Although Ajeel is stronger than Minerva, he doesn't have better durability feats than her (failed to tank Jupiter), thus it doesn't show that Nakagami Starlight's gotten stronger.
- Nakagami Starlight is a hax move as you said.

I see a fair Dimaria vs Erza (by fair I mean both bloodlusted, no restrictions and full intel for both) as I see Sand World Ajeel vs Erza. It's a low diff battle.
I've yet to see Azuma outclass Erza in speed. And scaling does not work because you don't know exactly how fast Erza is. Do you have proof that Jackal is slower than Erza? If so, post it. It is my opinion that Jackal is stronger so you can have yours but your proof seems unbelievable. Like I said, it wouldn't be wrong to say that Natsu is up there with Erza in Pre-Timeskip. Therefore, I would say that Natsu doubling every stat from second origin would put him at a higher level. Basically, Jackal had trouble with someone who was stronger than Tenrou Erza while Azuma got defeated by her. You can call 'hax' on every single one of Erza's attacks but then I don't even know why you're on this thread based on the title.

Non-serious Ajeel vs. Erza would be pointless to talk about because if Ajeel is losing, he will become serious. Ajeel would probably stomp Erza in a battle at Medium Difficulty. Ajeel did tank Jupiter Cannon. It was Erza's Nakagami Starlight following that made him out of commission. Minerva wouldn't be able to withstand that power. Also, Minerva was taken out by Tartaros Erza while Ajeel fared pretty well against her after the timeskip. I see Ajeel's durability being superior here.
 

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I've yet to see Azuma outclass Erza in speed. And scaling does not work because you don't know exactly how fast Erza is. Do you have proof that Jackal is slower than Erza? If so, post it. It is my opinion that Jackal is stronger so you can have yours but your proof seems unbelievable. Like I said, it wouldn't be wrong to say that Natsu is up there with Erza in Pre-Timeskip. Therefore, I would say that Natsu doubling every stat from second origin would put him at a higher level. Basically, Jackal had trouble with someone who was stronger than Tenrou Erza while Azuma got defeated by her. You can call 'hax' on every single one of Erza's attacks but then I don't even know why you're on this thread based on the title.

Non-serious Ajeel vs. Erza would be pointless to talk about because if Ajeel is losing, he will become serious. Ajeel would probably stomp Erza in a battle at Medium Difficulty. Ajeel did tank Jupiter Cannon. It was Erza's Nakagami Starlight following that made him out of commission. Minerva wouldn't be able to withstand that power. Also, Minerva was taken out by Tartaros Erza while Ajeel fared pretty well against her after the timeskip. I see Ajeel's durability being superior here.
He doesn't need to outclass her. All he needs to be scaled with her is keeping up with her. How does scaling not work? Scaling still makes Azuma as fast as Tenrou Erza - who is faster than Tenrou base Natsu. Jackal can't be scaled to base Natsu because he was outsped by him and was forced to enter Etherious Form (don't think stats are available for ET Jackal), which LFD Natsu completely wrecked. Furthermore, Jackal was later unable to react to Urano Metria, which isn't exactly a spell with fast casting time. I don't see anything that puts Jackal ahead of Tenrou Erza in the speed department. I don't understand your statement here... what does Jackal being mid diffed by Natsu have to do with Azuma being extreme diffed by Erza? And Azuma vs Erza was PiS, not hax. Hax is for things like Minerva's territory magic, Nakagami Armor, Macro, Sensation Curse, etc. Not all of Erza's attacks are haxed, most of them aren't, only Nakagami Armor and elemental armors (because they're built just to counter one type of battlers) can be considered hax. You seem to not know what hax is...

Analyzing this whole Jackal vs Azuma thing: DC goes to Azuma; Speed is a tie; Durability goes to Azuma; Intelligence goes to Azuma; Defense goes to Azuma; Hax goes to Jackal (slightly, not important in this specific match-up). I consider Azuma stronger than Jackal because he's superior on the most important stats, which are DC and durability, and has a tie in speed.

How can you consider that he tanked Jupiter if he wasn't shown in condition to battle after he got hit by it? He was already down when he took the hit, unless you manage to deny this. Regardless of this, Jupiter's best feat was being effortlessly tanked by Makarov back in Tenrou. Now, all this shows us is that Makarov's durability is tiers above Ajeel's.
Furthermore, Minerva is on par with Kagura, who managed to destroy Adamantine Armor effortlessly with her blade, the same armor which tanked Jupiter. This is only further proof that Jupiter is not any stronger than Kagura's slashes, which are multi-city block busters. Can Minerva tank Kagura's slashes? Yes, she can. Can she tank Jupiter then? I proved that she can, and she doesn't go beyond MCB level in the durability department, and same goes to Ajeel.
Being able to fight a stronger opponent =/= Having better durability
It is speculation. What I really did here is try and pick a power level that Erza would fall into. Rough power levels pre-TS is Heavenly Kings > Gildarts > Jellal/Jura/Laxus > Erza. Not sure if she qualifies to Heavenly Kings level (and I am not sure if Gildarts isn't HK level he might actually be this strong) on her feats. I definitely feel she is stronger, so I put her with Jellal. This is by no means accurate just trying to make it convenient and keep it simple.



Yes for someone like Natsu you can tell simply by AoE, but for Erza it's damage dealt out that's key.


Durability for Ajeel v Minerva I look at it like this...
Without feats: Durability is something I find is always extraordinarily high with top tiers. Before the TS everyone above Erza in power had durability above Minerva's. It's not directly proportional but there is a pretty strong link that more powerful people have higher durability, imo enough to make the assumption that the durability of someone several tiers above Tartarus Erza is going to have much greater durability than Minerva.
- Minerva is not a powerhouse in durability
- Ajeel blocked a slash from Erza in Wind God armor no damage. Idk if Minerva could.
- He did hype himself to tank Laxus nuke but August himself implies he gets destroyed so this is a moot point.

As for the hax I think Nakagami just gives her a chance to hit the body. It removes their use of their territory/sand magics, so it's giving Erza a clean hit on their body. If the damage is the same and the durability is different the inference of Erza improving holds. This hinges of Ajeel > Minerva for durability, I see it as Ajeel as much stronger in this regard.
Power level and durability isn't proportional. Someone who is above Erza overall doesn't necessarily have better durability.

- No, she isn't, but read my Kagura/Jupiter comparision above as to why she has multi-city block durability, around what Ajeel has shown us.
- Wind God Armor is featless.
- I agree. It's not an argument.

The hax doesn't really make a difference in the damage done. Read my reply to the user above as to why Ajeel is only a multi-city block tank.
 

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I sort of disagree with Jackal being stronger than Azuma.

It's kind of hard to tell because Tartarus Natsu was a good deal stronger than Tenrou Erza, but Natsu basically shredded Jackal when it came to combat. The only reason Jackal even managed to do damage against Natsu was because he can turn whatever he touches into a bomb, and Natsu himself made contact when he punched Jackal. You can't really say Jackal was keeping up with Natsu because he wasn't blocking Natsu's punches, or landing any hits of his own. Do I see Natsu doing the same to Tenrou Azuma? Not really. Azuma was very effective at landing hits against Erza, as well as blocking Erza's own attempts at hitting him. Tenrou Erza is not really any different from GMG Erza prior to releasing second origin. We see that GMG Erza can easily keep up with Minerva, and certainly was a lot less damaged by her war god magic than she was by Azuma's bombs. Azuma's fighting style also involves manipulating the trees around him to do his work. If he can avoid Jackal from actually touching him, then he can basically negate Jackal's largest advantage.

As for Tartarus Erza vs Tartarus Natsu? It's a pretty close call, but dragon force tips the scales to Natsu's favor for me. By no means would I say Natsu is obviously stronger, but he has the slight edge. Honestly, I'd be okay if people say that Erza is stronger.
 

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Power level and durability isn't proportional. Someone who is above Erza overall doesn't necessarily have better durability.
Yes I acknowledged this in my post. What I did say was anyone stronger than Erza has better durability than Minerva (someone below Erza). This is not like a law in FT, that stronger characters have better durability - but this would be quite a safe hypothesis to make give the durability of people stronger than Erza (Laxus, Jura, Jellal, Makarov, Gilarts, Precht; can't think of the others these guys have much superior durability than Minerva). Given Ajeel is even stronger than Erza and that group of wizards the odds of Ajeel having much superior durability to Minerva is nearly as low as 1:1.

- No, she isn't, but read my Kagura/Jupiter comparision above as to why she has multi-city block durability, around what Ajeel has shown us.
I am going to refer to some points you made in the post.
- Makarov was using Titan magic which improves his durability, and more importantly he guarded against Jupiter (took minor damage to arm). Ajeel on the other hand was already injured and blindsided by Jupiter (no guard). This doesn't prove Ajeel is on Makarov Titan level, just pointing out the circumstances are different. It's enough for me to say however that the comparison between both Jupiter encounters does not prove that Makarov Titan is superior either, more evidence would be needed to back this claim given it is a fairly extraordinary one (that someone has durability tiers above a Spriggan).
- Are the slashes Minerva took definitely as strong as the one that destroyed Adamantine? I felt there was a difference in Kagura and Erza level of fighting in their battle compared to the three-way. Anything Minerva received from Kagura was in my view weaker than what Erza got in the 1 on 1.

- Wind God Armor is featless.
- I agree. It's not an argument.
- Well is featless mean it's powerless? With a fair bit of common sense the slash had power, it sent Ajeel flying into the wall of a ship (might be the wind's doing). At any rate I don't see Minerva getting slashed physically by any sword from Erza and taking no damage.
- Yea it's a Laxus feat, not a Ajeel one.

The hax doesn't really make a difference in the damage done. Read my reply to the user above as to why Ajeel is only a multi-city block tank.
It might be unfair for me to say Erza got stronger because she was able to damage Ajeel like she did Minerva. But I believe this is a portrayal of Erza's strength being higher now.

Also you could look at the hax as current Erza negating sand body, while at GMG it negated territory. Ajeel's is stronger? I would assume so, by virtue of sheer power of the respective wizards. This is a messy comparison but there is some substance to it.
 

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Could you translate the stats, please? It's kinda hard to believe that the middle stat is speed...
Here's the kanji, which you can verify with Google Translate:
攻撃 (attack)
防御 (defense)
速さ (speed)
知性 (intelligence)
呪力 (curse power)
 

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I don’t get this. Some people are saying Tartaros Natsu is obviously stronger than Tartaros Erza. Or that in Alvarez arc Erza is about GMG Jura level.

Consider that in Tartaros:

Natsu had a hard time against Jackal, despite being able to eat his explosions. Jackal, who was one of the weakest of the 9DG, was pretty much a weaker version of Azuma (an opponent Erza fought two arcs and a timeskip ago). Azuma far surpasses Jackal in intelligence, versatility, speed, and even destructive power with Terra Clamare

LFD Natsu straight up lost to Franmalth and had to be saved by Lucy. Franmalth was basically a weaker version of base Hades and didn't even use spells like Amaterasu 100, showing Makarov >> Natsu.

Natsu was pretty much on par with Tempesta, who was fodderized by Laxus in their first fight. This pretty much shows that someone of Jura's level >> Natsu.

LFD Natsu + Sting + Rogue were getting owned by base Mard Geer. Even DF Natsu's strongest attack barely did anything to Mard Geer.

On the other hand, SO Erza was a bit below GMG Jura level. Tartaros Erza defeated demon-buffed Minerva and fought on par with the strongest of the 9DG.

Pre-time skip Erza ~ weaker WS (Jose, Jellal, Jura), also shown in Pandemonium.

Also consider that Minerva casually blocked Natsu's LFD punch: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/283/14. Yagdo Rigora was strong enough to surprise Jura: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/312/17, making it likely stronger than Orga's lightning attack (~1/2 Jura's attack on MPF). Kagura and non-SO Erza tanked Yagdo Rigora with no problem.

If you multiply this by 2 (for SO), should get in ballpark of mid-level WS (Makarov, GMG Jura).

In Alvarez arc, this gets even more ridiculous because Erza just fought 1v1 against (and beat) someone that Makarov was too scared to fight against. Someone that Gajeel, Natsu, and Wendy were preparing to fight in a 3v1. Unless you think GMG Jura >> Makarov, this clearly indicates that Alvarez Erza > GMG Jura.

Plus, don’t forget about http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/438/16.:)
Although, on the 1 v 1 againgst Ajeel, Erza was getting smacked aside fro the two cuts she got on him and he was being extremely overconfident even when marin's assistance was cut off.
But to be quite fair Natsu
in his strongest forms has for the most part of this series now has been more powerfull than Erza, Dragon King beats Nakagami, LFD beats red pants armour, Dragon force beats purgatory Armour. Natsu has been consistently more powerfull at the end of the day in every arc since the tower of heaven, excluding Edolas.
 
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