Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Yeah I think the issue with Sai is that he showed he could succeed where the last head of the Happo Navy couldn't. Besides Chinjao was past his prime and he should have retired, instead he kept on fighting only to get pwned by Luffy and Lao G who is as old as Chinjao himself. So I don't know if he really became Don just because he had hardened Haki. It was going to happen sooner or later anyway.

 

[kkck]

Yeah I think the issue with Sai is that he showed he could succeed where the last head of the Happo Navy couldn't. Besides Chinjao was past his prime and he should have retired, instead he kept on fighting only to get pwned by Luffy and Lao G who is as old as Chinjao himself. So I don't know if he really became Don just because he had hardened Haki. It was going to happen sooner or later anyway.

Where did chinjao fail? Well, he was beaten by garp and had his head flattened but as far as I can tell there isn't an specific area over which don sai can triumph where chinjao failed.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Where did chinjao fail? Well, he was beaten by garp and had his head flattened but as far as I can tell there isn't an specific area over which don sai can triumph where chinjao failed.

Lol well he kept failing the whole arc. Sorry I may not have expressed myself accurately there. The point is he kept on losing.
And you seem to have forgotten that both Chinjao and Sai faced Lao G. While Chinjao lost to him, Sai won. That's where Sai was able to prevail where Chinjao couldn't.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I doubt the achievement itself was hardened haki. I always thought the achievement would be that he got that sort of power with his kick. So before that he could use hardened haki but he didn't achieve that sort of power. It's not like anyone who can use hardened haki can get that sort of power. If anything considering don sai's previous performance it is a tad weird that he was able to output such an insane amount of power. Even zoro was wary about it and we are talking about a guy who is able to cut city sized statues.

Chinjao demands Sai to stop being merciful to Baby-5.

Spoiler

Sai for the first-time has the resolve to oppose Chinjao from bossing him around.

Spoiler

Sai's resolve helped him advance from normal armament haki to hardened armament.

Spoiler

Here, Chinjao acknowledges Sai's resolve and explicitly says his powers have awakened; it's because of Hardened/Black haki that he's able to break the Ice Continent now.

Spoiler

Character progression if you will.

 

[kkck]

Lol well he kept failing the whole of the arc. Sorry I may not have expressed myself accurately there. The point is he kept on losing.

Ahh ok. But there is still nowhere chinjao failed where sai could triumph. The only way to do that would be that he decides to kill luffy at this point which would be kinda awkward after he joined luffy's one sided posse.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2016 ---

Chinjao demands Sai to stop being merciful to Baby-5.

Spoiler

Sai for the first-time has the resolve to oppose Chinjao from bossing him around.

Spoiler

Sai's resolve helped him advance from normal armament haki to hardened armament.

Spoiler

Here, Chinjao acknowledges Sai's resolve and explicitly says his powers have awakened; it's because of Hardened/Black haki that he's able to break the Ice Continent now.

Spoiler

Character progression if you will.

My point was specifically about the hardened haki. The implication there is that sai finally released or awakened his true power. It's not merely about hardened haki but about the actual raw power he needed to surpass chinjao (however weakened he was). Hardened haki alone wouldn't be able to allow him what he did, otherwise anyone with hardened haki would have such feats. Chinjao's drillhead and sai's kick are specialized techniques which have the effect we have seen. Of course, hardened haki is important but it is still merely but one aspect of what is going on here.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

Ahh ok. But there is still nowhere chinjao failed where sai could triumph. The only way to do that would be that he decides to kill luffy at this point which would be kinda awkward after he joined luffy's one sided posse.

It is though.In this manga we have badass grandpas who can fight. Garp, Sengoku,Rayleigh, Chinjao, Lao G and of course the best of them all, Whitebeard. Age isn't an issue here, since it doesn't stop them from being able to fight. However when too old geezers like Chinjao and Lao G fought one of them lost. Lao G while being old proved that he was overall more powerful and in better shape than Chinjao. And although I'm not fond of this common idea, that Chinjao was hyped, you gotta admit that for someone from Garp's generation he was a bit of a disappointment. So if we take all these into account, and the fact that Lao G used a rejuvenation technique, the fact remains that Sai was able to beat the opponent that previously beat his grandpa. So that way Sai was able to prove himself, as someone worthy of becoming the head of the Happo Navy.It's not just because he had hardened Haki, it's because he managed to become strong enough to beat Lao G in the first place.

 

[kkck]

It is though.In this manga we have badass grandpas who can fight. Garp, Sengoku,Rayleigh, Chinjao, Lao G and of course the best of them all, Whitebeard. Age isn't an issue here, since it doesn't stop them from being able to fight. However when too old geezers like Chinjao and Lao G fought one of them lost. Lao G while being old proved that he was overall more powerful and in better shape than Chinjao. And although I'm not fond of this common idea, that Chinjao was hyped, you gotta admit that for someone from Garp's generation he was a bit of a disappointment. So if we take all these into account, and the fact that Lao G used a rejuvenation technique, the fact remains that Sai was able to beat the opponent that previously beat his grandpa. So that way Sai was able to prove himself, as someone worthy of becoming the head of the Happo Navy.It's not just because he had hardened Haki, it's because he managed to become strong enough to beat Lao G in the first place.

Well, chinjao did make the point that he was not able to recover since the fight, presumably due to his age. In context none of the people you mentioned took a beating like chinjao did through the manga. And even then, the manga has consistently shown those people as past their prime. Garp made the point himself that he was weaker than before, oda drew sengoku quite aged immediately after the war and has since aged even more very quickly. WB fought during the war but with great effort considering that right before the war he was plucked to a number of IVs and receiving treatment. LaoG is a special case considering he specifically said he had a technique to save his youthfull strength for later use. It is entirely plausible that the other old people we have seen in the manga wouldn't quite recover if they had taken such a beating. I am not sure if chinjao's head popping specifically had a negative effect either. Even if it was a good thing it does seem like the sort of thing that should have an effect. Also worth noting, chinjao could have easily been a different warrior merely two years ago when we saw all those old people do their thing.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

My point was specifically about the hardened haki. The implication there is that sai finally released or awakened his true power. It's not merely about hardened haki but about the actual raw power he needed to surpass chinjao (however weakened he was).

Haki makes things harder, why wouldn't it be able to allow him to do that?

Sai didn't just become physically stronger all of a sudden, it was haki.

 

[kkck]

Haki makes things harder, why wouldn't it be able to allow him to do that?

Sai didn't just become physically stronger all of a sudden, it was haki.

Because haki doesn't just do arbitrary things like splitting the ground. If it did then luffy would have already split every place he has been at where he used armored haki in two. And yet, fishman island remains unsplit, so does punk hazard and dressrosa's only new cliff is due to good old sai. What sai did there was master a specific technique, something equivalent to, say, luffy's culverine or sanji's parage shot which have specific effects or tricks to them. Haki is likely only but a factor of the power behind it but not in itself the feat. The whole thing should pertain specifically to hashoken mastery.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Because haki doesn't just do arbitrary things like splitting the ground. If it did then luffy would have already split every place he has been at where he used armored haki in two. And yet, fishman island remains unsplit, so does punk hazard and dressrosa's only new cliff is due to good old sai. What sai did there was master a specific technique, something equivalent to, say, luffy's culverine or sanji's parage shot which have specific effects or tricks to them. Haki is likely only but a factor of the power behind it but not in itself the feat. The whole thing should pertain specifically to hashoken mastery.

So, are you implying that Haki is not hard? You do know the purpose of haki is not just for show, but to augment attacks?

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

So, are you implying that Haki is not hard?

That's not what he's implying. What he's trying to say is that Sai made a new technique, just like Luffy made the King Kong punch. Hardened Haki is just one element, there's also the necessary power behind it.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

That's not what he's implying. What he's trying to say is that Sai made a new technique, just like Luffy made the King Kong punch. Hardened Haki is just one element, there's also the necessary power behind it.

We can't distinguish a new technique, but we can distinguish haki.

How do you know this is a new technique? Chinjao didn't say he attained a new technique, he said he unlocked his true power and it's also the first time that Sai used Black haki.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

We can't distinguish a new technique, but we can distinguish haki.

How do you know this is a new technique? Chinjao didn't say he attained a new technique, he said he unlocked his true power and it's also the first time that Sai used Black haki.

Can't unlocking his true power be coming up with a new technique comparable to Chinjao's drill? I think it's a possibilty, a very likely one.

We can't know for sure which one it is, which makes either theory possible at this point.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Can't unlocking his true power be coming up with a new technique comparable to Chinjao's drill? I think it's a possibilty, a very likely one.

We can't know for sure which one it is, which makes either theory possible at this point.

|That's speculation with no basis. We don't know Sai enough to be able to make such a claim in regard to techniques which we can do for Zoro or Luffy or Sanji since we know their techniqes well enough.

For the likes of Sai, we'd need to be explicitly told it's a technique he developed in order to make such a distinction.

We do know from Mihawk that advancing from Invisible Haki to Black Haki is progress, or he wouldn't have told Zoro not to drink until he learned to coat his blade into a black one.

So, why would it be far-fetched if Sai's progress was not from Invisible to Black Haki.

Where else have we seen Sai using Black haki prior to that? No where.

In fact, after he used it that one time against Chinjao, he used it again, so it's clearly a progression or he'd have been using previously.

Spoiler

It's pretty clear that going from Invisible to Black is a progressoin, or else there wouldn't be much emphasis from both Mihawk on Zoro'#s behaf and Sai's promotion from Chinjao; it can't be coincidence.

 

[kkck]

So, are you implying that Haki is not hard? You do know the purpose of haki is not just for show, but to augment attacks?

Of course not. Hard is quite literally in the name. And yes, haki does augment attacks. However in that context haki does not give attacks anything unique. There are situations of specialized fruits but that usually pertains to combining it with unique abilities, specially fruits. Say, enel using his observation haki with his fruit to enhance it or luffy and gear 4th to which haki is a fundamental aspect. However this is not what is going on with sai, sai just used a technique pertaining specifically and uniquely to hashoken. Chinjao even named the attack. My point is that his kick and whatnot are specifically a martial arts feat, not a haki feat.

Also worth noting, chinjao did name the technique. Also he called it a technique. A secret move of hashoken at that. Again, that was a martial arts feat, not a haki feat. It was the first time that we saw hardening but the assumption that sai somehow mastered it on the spot is kinda out there considering that haki has taken time and training to master regardless of who it was who was learning it. Even luffy took a year and a half and that was faster than what rayleigh expected. Odds are sai already had pretty high level haki skills and was able to use hardening from the start, he simply didn't do so before that. Him mastering a martial arts technique at that moment makes way more sense than him mastering haki on the spot.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

|That's speculation with no basis. We don't know Sai enough to be able to make such a claim in regard to techniques which we can do for Zoro or Luffy or Sanji since we know their techniqes well enough.

For the likes of Sai, we'd need to be explicitly told it's a technique he developed in order to make such a distinction.

We do know from Mihawk that advancing from Invisible Haki to Black Haki is progress, or he wouldn't have told Zoro not to drink until he learned to coat his blade into a black one.

So, why would it be far-fetched if Sai's progress was not from Invisible to Black Haki.

Where else have we seen Sai using Black haki prior to that? No where.

In fact, after he used it that one time against Chinjao, he used it again, so it's clearly a progression or he'd have been using previously.

Spoiler

It's pretty clear that going from Invisible to Black is a progressoin, or else there wouldn't be much emphasis from both Mihawk on Zoro'#s behaf and Sai's promotion from Chinjao; it can't be coincidence.

It is a technique, it has its own name:Hasshoken Ogi: Kiryu Kirikugi. Ogi(Ougi) is literally technique in Japanese. Usually when something is named that means it's a technique.
And Chinjao doesn't refer to it as "hardening haki". If it was just about Haki then we would have seen him specifically praising Sai for unlocking "Hardening Haki". However I clearly remember him referring to it as "Hasshouken" which is the Happo Navy technique.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Of course not. Hard is quite literally in the name. And yes, haki does augment attacks. However in that context haki does not give attacks anything unique.

Then you're saying Sai's haki didn't augment his attack against Chinjao? Then what was the point in Oda showing Sai use Black haki for the first time?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2016 ---

It is a technique, it has its own name:Hasshoken Ogi: Kiryu Kirikugi. Ogi is literally technique in Japanese. Usually when something is named that means it's a technique.
And Chinjao doesn't refer to it as "hardening haki". If it was just about Haki then we would have seen him specifically praising Sai for unlocking "Hardening Haki". However I clearly remember him referring to it as "Hasshouken" which is the Happo Navy technique.

The attack was a mere kick, Chinjao only named it after it bent his head and it's because of the Haki. Haki makes attacks stronger, so why it can't be haki is questoinable.

Spoiler

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

A mere kick? I beg to differ

Hasshoken Ogi: Kiryu Kirikugi (八衝拳奥義 錐龍錐釘 Hasshō-ken Ōgi: Kiryū Kirikugi?, literally meaning "Eight Impacts Fist Secret Technique: Drill Dragon Drill Nail"): The Hasshoken secret technique bestowed upon his leg upon proving his might against his predecessor. Sai performs cartwheels while imbuing his leg with Busoshoku Haki, and then performs a kick with vibrations emitting from said leg. Chinjao claimed that with this, Sai should be able to break apart the layers of ice in the same manner how Chinjao did 30 years back. This technique was first used when Chinjao bestowed him the Hasshoken's secret technique upon his leg, defeating Lao G and sending a massive shock wave linear to the kick, as well as creating a fissure along the ground.[10]

Stop trying to downgrade it to a mere kick, it is supposed to be on par with Chinjao's drill, it is the secret technique of the Hasshoken.It uses vibrations that are representative of the Hasshoken, so no it is not a mere kick. So please stop pushing your argument down our throats.

 

[kkck]

Then you're saying Sai's haki didn't augment his attack against Chinjao? Then what was the point in Oda showing Sai use Black haki for the first time?

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 6, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 6, 2016 ---

The attack was a mere kick, Chinjao only named it after it bent his head and it's because of the Haki. Haki makes attacks stronger, so why it can't be haki is questoinable.

Spoiler

It did augment the kick, however it is not the feat itself. Looking at the haki in this specific case completely misses the point.

Chinjao calls that the secret technique of hashoken. Hashoken is a martial art with its own unique properties. Which as any other martial art can be enhanced via haki. However the point here is "the secrete technique of hashoken" being passed on. Haki is not what is special here, it's sai finally mastering his martial art's most powerful technique. Haki doesn't have the property of arbitrarily spliting the land in two. Hashoken's secret technique in turn does have that power. The technique sai used is basically his equivalent to chinjao's own drillhead. Which as the manga has shown can split the land even when it is not hardened.

 

[Notice me Escanor senpai]

It did augment the kick, however it is not the feat itself. Looking at the haki in this specific case completely misses the point.

Chinjao calls that the secret technique of hashoken. Hashoken is a martial art with its own unique properties. Which as any other martial art can be enhanced via haki. However the point here is "the secrete technique of hashoken" being passed on. Haki is not what is special here, it's sai finally mastering his martial art's most powerful technique. Haki doesn't have the property of arbitrarily spliting the land in two. Hashoken's secret technique in turn does have that power. The technique sai used is basically his equivalent to chinjao's own drillhead. Which as the manga has shown can split the land even when it is not hardened.

Well I guess that proves it, that what's so special about it isn't hardened Haki, but the technique itself which is supposed to be the ultimate technique of Hasshoken.