Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Yes. And is that a stronger CoA or a different version of CoA? THe Armament we're used to seeing damages the outside, while the Armament he trained for damages the inside, no?

Anything can be explained with a Rayleigh flashback. A new unknown haki that we've never hear of before or was hinted at before? RAYLEIGH FLASHBACK!

Thought it took Luffy more than a day to learn new gears. I'd say the same about any character though.

Rayleigh used advanced CoA against the elephant in Amazon Lily and in the slave auction. Both scenes happened in the manga's timeline. Luffy remembering them is only natural. Plus, his training was stated to be just the basics of haki, so we knew that there is more to learn in the future ever since the time skip.

 

[M3J]

Your saying he can... the manga is saying otherwise. Perhaps it needs to feel like Luffy really is going to get killed. Luffy wouldn't really be in danger. I dont know. I'm not Oda. All I know is the information that is given to us in the manga that has Rayleigh stating that real danger has to be present for haki to fully advance. The experience of life and death extremes conditions battle.

And as I keep telling you. Blackbeard randomly told us Luffy had haki. Many of us didnt even fully under what haki even was at that point. No one trained Luffy in haki... it BLOOMED from the countless battles he had endured. Rayliegh could only teach Luffy the concepts/basics.

Luffy fighting Mihawk is another prime example of Luffy unlocking CoO in the midst of an extreme battle, further hinting one could take CoO to the extremes of even seeing the future because he has foreseen his arms getting cut off if he attacked Mihawk.

Why can't Rayleigh really make it so Luffy will really get killed? Hell, he could have done the same against the wild animals, given Gear 4 was made because none of the other gears could deal with them. Still is plot convenience.

And I'm disagreeing with what Blackbeard said. Is that not obvious? Wouldn't Rayleigh of all people know if Luffy did have haki? I can understand Luffy not knowing, especially since it does seem like Gear 2 does use CoA, but it is weird no one else recognized it after Blackbeard.

Still disagreeing with that, and I take it more as Mihawk's killing intent making Luffy realize his arms would be sliced off.

Rayleigh used advanced CoA against the elephant in Amazon Lily and in the slave auction. Both scenes happened in the manga's timeline. Luffy remembering them is only natural. Plus, his training was stated to be just the basics of haki, so we knew that there is more to learn in the future ever since the time skip.

That's the thing though, against the elephant we've seen that from Sentomaru, the fat Boa sister, and I believe few of the Cipher 9s.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Why can't Rayleigh really make it so Luffy will really get killed? Hell, he could have done the same against the wild animals, given Gear 4 was made because none of the other gears could deal with them. Still is plot convenience.

And I'm disagreeing with what Blackbeard said. Is that not obvious? Wouldn't Rayleigh of all people know if Luffy did have haki? I can understand Luffy not knowing, especially since it does seem like Gear 2 does use CoA, but it is weird no one else recognized it after Blackbeard.

Still disagreeing with that, and I take it more as Mihawk's killing intent making Luffy realize his arms would be sliced off.



That's the thing though, against the elephant we've seen that from Sentomaru, the fat Boa sister, and I believe few of the Cipher 9s.

* I don't understand so everything you say is wrong


That is basically what your saying. A controlled environment would never wield genuine results because we are told it has to be a real danger not a self made danger.

And your disagreeing with BB because you know better than him? He said it to himself. Why would he lie to himself?

Me "Luffy's made of rubber"
You "nope"
Me "yes here are panels... it even says it in the manga"
You "Nope"

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Why can't Rayleigh really make it so Luffy will really get killed? Hell, he could have done the same against the wild animals, given Gear 4 was made because none of the other gears could deal with them. Still is plot convenience.

And I'm disagreeing with what Blackbeard said. Is that not obvious? Wouldn't Rayleigh of all people know if Luffy did have haki? I can understand Luffy not knowing, especially since it does seem like Gear 2 does use CoA, but it is weird no one else recognized it after Blackbeard.

Still disagreeing with that, and I take it more as Mihawk's killing intent making Luffy realize his arms would be sliced off.



That's the thing though, against the elephant we've seen that from Sentomaru, the fat Boa sister, and I believe few of the Cipher 9s.

We've never seen it from Luffy so he's learning it as a power up.

And it's stated in the manga that Rayleigh taught Luffy the basics in a year and a half and then left him alone. If the basics take that long then I would really not blame Rayleigh for not doing more. He gave him a lot more attention than Garp or Dragon ever did.

Rayleigh also said everyone has haki, so Rayleigh clearly knew Luffy had haki since Luffy is a human being. The key factor is that BB noticed that Luffy's haki is growing. Also, Luffy awakened king's in front of basically thousands of people in the war and Rayleigh knew since he was watching on Shabaody.

And vs Mihawk was obs being awakened.

 

[Fox666]

Blackbeard talked about Luffy's Haki way back in Jaya.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Blackbeard talked about Luffy's Haki way back in Jaya.

Nah it's Impel Down.

 

[nik87]

Blackbeard talked about Luffy's Haki way back in Jaya.

Panel? Or chapter?

 

[kkck]

"Luffy... I have trained you"

Litterally his first words in the panel I provided.

So? it's still entirely absurd to make the point that the advanced versions of haki can't be taught at all when we have seen at a minimum haki projecting being taught.

 

[goldb]

Panel? Or chapter?

ch234 if I remember correctly, but the old translations don't mention it clearly. If you watch the anime, it should. I'll check again when I get home.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 5, 2019 ---

ch234 if I remember correctly, but the old translations don't mention it clearly. If you watch the anime, it should. I'll check again when I get home.

Here's the anime scene for reference. You hear Blackbeard say "haki" but back then it used to be translated as "ambition".

 

[nik87]

ch234 if I remember correctly, but the old translations don't mention it clearly. If you watch the anime, it should. I'll check again when I get home.

Not sure what Haki did Luffy demonstrate back then, maybe he referred to his spirit which isn't far off from Haki since Haki is spiritual energy.

 

[kkck]

Haki according to the series is a property of living creatures. So luffy didn't necessarily have to demonstrate it in order for it to be present. From the context the impression I had was that luffy unknowingly nurtured or whatever his haki until it began randomly manifesting itself at around when duval was introduced. Those bits from old chapters would work better if we ever saw someone with little power and a lot of balls with haki or spirit strong enough for luffy or other contemporary characters to feel it... At least then we'd have the full context.

 

[goldb]

As we know from Rayleigh explaining the concept to Luffy, haki exists in all living things or at least every human being. From seeing the scene above( ch234), Rayleigh's training of Luffy (ch597) and even as recently as ch963, I always believed certain characters were gifted enough to sense haki and therefore the presence of others without the aforementioned being used in any obvious way.

I believe this is what happened when Blackbeard met Luffy for the first time in Jaya. He then later commented on his haki growing since their initial meeting when they crossed paths again in Impel Down (ch544).

 

[Fox666]

覇気 (Haki)

Afaik it's a made up word. While it could be translated as something like "will" or "ambition", it's specifically used for Haki.

 

[Pirate Queen]

We've never seen it from Luffy so he's learning it as a power up.

And it's stated in the manga that Rayleigh taught Luffy the basics in a year and a half and then left him alone. If the basics take that long then I would really not blame Rayleigh for not doing more. He gave him a lot more attention than Garp or Dragon ever did.

Rayleigh also said everyone has haki, so Rayleigh clearly knew Luffy had haki since Luffy is a human being. The key factor is that BB noticed that Luffy's haki is growing. Also, Luffy awakened king's in front of basically thousands of people in the war and Rayleigh knew since he was watching on Shabaody.

And vs Mihawk was obs being awakened.

Luffy awakened CoC on Amazon Lily. Way before the Marineford War....

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 5, 2019 ---

So? it's still entirely absurd to make the point that the advanced versions of haki can't be taught at all when we have seen at a minimum haki projecting being taught.

And it wasn't activated until a real life or death situation occured... the collars.

So no, not absurd and clearly defined and explained in the manga

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 5, 2019 ---

I'm surprised so many forgot BB acknowledge Luffy having Haki.

I remember it being a very big deal back in the day lol glad I was able to bring out the discussion in ya guys!

 

[kkck]

And it wasn't activated until a real life or death situation occured... the collars.

So no, not absurd and clearly defined and explained in the manga

Certainly, but hyogoro is still teaching luffy. And he spent all that time teaching luffy until he got it right. If haki couldn't be taught at all then you'd think someone like hyogoro, who has mastered haki projection, wouldn't waste his time teaching luffy. So the reality of the manga is that yes, haki can be taught AND also extreme conditions help in mastering it. We even saw a small flashback of mihawk teaching zoro how to extend haki over his blade.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Certainly, but hyogoro is still teaching luffy. And he spent all that time teaching luffy until he got it right. If haki couldn't be taught at all then you'd think someone like hyogoro, who has mastered haki projection, wouldn't waste his time teaching luffy. So the reality of the manga is that yes, haki can be taught AND also extreme conditions help in mastering it. We even saw a small flashback of mihawk teaching zoro how to extend haki over his blade.

Hyo could have taught Luffy til he was blue in the face and Luffy wouldnt have developed that specific haki and even further, Hyo was trying to teach him flow haki and Luffy skipped that form and used the internal damaging haki (there has got to be a short way of saying internal damage haki hahahah)... luffy went back to learning flow haki after he had already UNLOCKED inner damage haki. Because the basics need to be taught before you can understand the more advanced.... crawling before your running, so to speak

Read the top left panels please

 

[kkck]

Hyo could have taught Luffy til he was blue in the face and Luffy wouldnt have developed that specific haki and even further, Hyo was trying to teach him flow haki and Luffy skipped that form and used the internal damaging haki (there has got to be a short way of saying internal damage haki hahahah)... luffy went back to learning flow haki after he had already UNLOCKED inner damage haki. Because the basics need to be taught before you can understand the more advanced.... crawling before your running, so to speak

Read the top left panels please

I know that happened. And I stand by what I said, the advanced versions of haki can be taught. Both things played a factor in luffy learning the advanced forms of CoA. Hyogoro definitely taught luffy, all kuja learn it, zoro learned it from mihawk... If the advanced forms of haki couldn't be taught at all then it wouldn't make sense for people to teach them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

I know that happened. And I stand by what I said, the advanced versions of haki can be taught. Both things played a factor in luffy learning the advanced forms of CoA. Hyogoro definitely taught luffy, all kuja learn it, zoro learned it from mihawk... If the advanced forms of haki couldn't be taught at all then it wouldn't make sense for people to teach them.

More evidence for you

Hyo says Luffy already mastered flow haki, Luffy just uses it subconciously whereas he was getting trained to utilize it consciously.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 5, 2019 ---

And you can stand by what you said and it doesnt make you any less wrong. I'm just trying to help educate you. I'm giving you the tools then better your understanding of haki. You don't need to agree with me, that's not my goal.

I was hoping you'd be a bit more willing to open up to the concepts presented tho

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

I know that happened. And I stand by what I said, the advanced versions of haki can be taught. Both things played a factor in luffy learning the advanced forms of CoA. Hyogoro definitely taught luffy, all kuja learn it, zoro learned it from mihawk... If the advanced forms of haki couldn't be taught at all then it wouldn't make sense for people to teach them.

Should the time skip have been 3 years then? Or 4 years? Why didn't Rayleigh just keep training Luffy off screen until Luffy becomes stronger than him and basically as strong as Roger, and we switch to reading a Luffy goofy version of One Punch Man as he breezes through the Grand Line?

If Luffy learned everything about haki, he'd be much stronger, he'd beat Hody with a finger flick, beat CC with a jet pistol, beat Doffy low diff, beat Fujitora mid diff, and be already strong enough to take out Big Mom and Kaido. Actually scratch that, by the time Luffy achieves that level of strength, the revos would have clashed with the admirals and Sabo would be dead like Ace, and Kaido and Joker would have gone to war against Big Mom or Shanks, and BB would have made his move to take out the last standing, and the Supernova would all be dead, and someone else would have found One Piece.

 

[kkck]

Should the time skip have been 3 years then? Or 4 years? Why didn't Rayleigh just keep training Luffy off screen until Luffy becomes stronger than him and basically as strong as Roger, and we switch to reading a Luffy goofy version of One Punch Man as he breezes through the Grand Line?

If Luffy learned everything about haki, he'd be much stronger, he'd beat Hody with a finger flick, beat CC with a jet pistol, beat Doffy low diff, beat Fujitora mid diff, and be already strong enough to take out Big Mom and Kaido. Actually scratch that, by the time Luffy achieves that level of strength, the revos would have clashed with the admirals and Sabo would be dead like Ace, and Kaido and Joker would have gone to war against Big Mom or Shanks, and BB would have made his move to take out the last standing, and the Supernova would all be dead, and someone else would have found One Piece.

Well, yeah, but that is basically the plot justification for this. As in, why oda did or didn't do something which did or didn't suit him. But my point is more about the in story reality of haki: That it simply can be taught to others. We have seen it being taught to others multiple times. And it works. Of course, its also true that haki can be learned as mastered via extreme life or death situations. Ultimately its not a one or the other scenario because regardless of what the manga claims we have seen both at work. Unless the implication here is that hyogoro didn't teach luffy, mihawk didn't teach zoro or the kuja don't teach their crewmembers how to use ryo.

And within this, rayleigh was a bit of a dick because not only he didn't teach luffy about the advanced versions of haki (he showed them to luffy at a point where neither us readers or luffy could tell the difference between advanced or basic haki) but he didn't even bother to tell him about it. Of course, if luffy had known about this he would have been trying to get the hang of it way earlier than against katakuri or in wano which naturally wouldn't suit the plot/oda.