Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[kkck]

I'd say Enma is a power up, or at least, it will eventually turn into a tangible power up. Aside from the fact that it trains his haki, it will eventually become a Black Blade, which will raise it's rank and increase it's base strength as a sword.

Shunsui, on the flip side, was already blackened and, given what we currently know, most likely hit it's peak in terms of it's strength. Enma still has the potential to become Supreme Grade.

But isn't the context nowdays that swords like that are essentially for bragging rights? Weapon quality is probably important but only to a point... Vergo used a freaking bamboo to fight and went on to break smoker's weapon basically because he was a better haki user. It's also hard to imagine that people of the caliber of roger, whitebeard or mihawk would suffer a downgrade to their power if they had other weapons. Weapons probably matter but not to the point where they make or break a warrior... Add to that, there probably aren't enough meito around for every strong swordsman in the grand line..

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

It is one as anyone with Haki can wield it, not just Zoro. You think if Luffy touches it he won't be able to handle it? I can list full group of people I know who can handle Enma and Zoro will look inadequate against them in how Enma is use.

Durablity at best, but even without it, Sanji is fine with his Haki as shown on how he damage and block others without it. Sanji isn't relying on it as power, but for stealth missions. His skills are still his own as invisibility isn't something to raise his power, his skills and own training is while Zoro got sword that use power without asking the user, so not same thing between them on their purpose.

if anyone with haki can wield it, then why did kinemon said he wouldn't wield enma if it's given to him?
What's really the point for your list here? I can also list people who are better haki user than sanji. Your list doesn't invalidate the haki feats from zoro

nah, sanji relies on RS for power. We saw how in PH vergo broke sanji's legs easily. If sanji had proper CoA, that wouldn't happen. Just telling facts from the manga. Like i said, oda had different route for sanji. Sanji doesn't go the haki expert path like luffy and zoro but he's going for the weapon technology route like nami or usopp.

 

[King Moe]

if anyone with haki can wield it, then why did kinemon said he wouldn't wield enma if it's given to him?
What's really the point for your list here? I can also list people who are better haki user than sanji. Your list doesn't invalidate the haki feats from zoro

nah, sanji relies on RS for power. We saw how in PH vergo broke sanji's legs easily. If sanji had proper CoA, that wouldn't happen. Just telling facts from the manga. Like i said, oda had different route for sanji. Sanji doesn't go the haki expert path like luffy and zoro but he's going for the weapon technology route like nami or usopp.

Kinemon didn't because out of respect, never about he was unable after he tried. There is no record of anyone notable on handling Enma and failing at it. Zoro isn't only one to handle Enma and lol Sanji would be better at handling a weapon compare to Zoro given we seen from few fights with a weapon in hand. Enma wouldn't be problem for him and again Zoro isn't only one to handle Enma and there many others who could do it better than him.

Nah, disguise only and Vergo thing is debunked headcannon just like status of Zoro having power to solo Kaido from your headcannon which was never true. Sanji already shown he has COA on high level and better flexibility than guy who fainted from a fight from nerfer without thinking of using his Haki to attack and defend like Zoro XD. Oda is giving him Haki Performance without and with RS as unlike Enma case, Sanji is capable fighting without equipment with notable threats, but you can't say same thing if Zoro loses his swords though. That just how it is for him.

 

[kkck]

Kinemon didn't because out of respect, never about he was unable after he tried. There is no record of anyone notable on handling Enma and failing at it. Zoro isn't only one to handle Enma and lol Sanji would be better at handling a weapon compare to Zoro given we seen from few fights with a weapon in hand. Enma wouldn't be problem for him and again Zoro isn't only one to handle Enma and there many others who could do it better than him.

Nah, disguise only and Vergo thing is debunked headcannon just like status of Zoro having power to solo Kaido from your headcannon which was never true. Sanji already shown he has COA on high level and better flexibility than guy who fainted from a fight from nerfer without thinking of using his Haki to attack and defend like Zoro XD. Oda is giving him Haki Performance without and with RS as unlike Enma case, Sanji is capable fighting without equipment with notable threats, but you can't say same thing if Zoro loses his swords though. That just how it is for him.

Come on, clearly the context when kinemon spoke was about the sword just being dangerous in general. And kitetsu specifically makes the point that only oden had succeeded in mastering the blade. It's not necessarily the case that any one scabbard would be able to handle it... let alone sanji, a guy who has never evidenced advanced haki of any kind nor even has a relevant skillset for a sword, other than cutting noodles.

 

[Nie Li]

My God. When someone literally argues that "Sanji is better at handling weapons compared to Zoro", talking especifically about swordsmanship, what's even the point of the discussion?

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Kinemon didn't because out of respect, never about he was unable after he tried. There is no record of anyone notable on handling Enma and failing at it. Zoro isn't only one to handle Enma and lol Sanji would be better at handling a weapon compare to Zoro given we seen from few fights with a weapon in hand. Enma wouldn't be problem for him and again Zoro isn't only one to handle Enma and there many others who could do it better than him.

Nah, disguise only and Vergo thing is debunked headcannon just like status of Zoro having power to solo Kaido from your headcannon which was never true. Sanji already shown he has COA on high level and better flexibility than guy who fainted from a fight from nerfer without thinking of using his Haki to attack and defend like Zoro XD. Oda is giving him Haki Performance without and with RS as unlike Enma case, Sanji is capable fighting without equipment with notable threats, but you can't say same thing if Zoro loses his swords though. That just how it is for him.

wrong. Kinemon was scared to use enma because he couldn't control it. Just like momosuke did. Sanji would die if he tries to use enma, too. Sanji isn't good at CoA. See how vergo broke sanji legs easily (vergo's CoA > sanji's CoA). Doflamingo didn't even bother to use hardening when he fought sanji (while he did against non G4 luffy). Sanji isn't that flexible, either to be honest. Drake easily hit sanji only by swinging his tail.

raid suit is a powerup when sanji himself said that RS is a durable armor. Sanji isnt going to be haki expert, but high-technology fighter. Oda wants to make the SHP as fighters with variety of fighting style so i understand why he doesn't make sanji to be haki expert

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 1, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 1, 2020 ---

My God. When someone literally argues that "Sanji is better at handling weapons compared to Zoro", talking especifically about swordsmanship, what's even the point of the discussion?

clearly to be antagonistic towards zoro, which is a bad habit since it's irrelevant for the discussion here

 

[HereNThere]

But isn't the context nowdays that swords like that are essentially for bragging rights? Weapon quality is probably important but only to a point... Vergo used a freaking bamboo to fight and went on to break smoker's weapon basically because he was a better haki user. It's also hard to imagine that people of the caliber of roger, whitebeard or mihawk would suffer a downgrade to their power if they had other weapons. Weapons probably matter but not to the point where they make or break a warrior... Add to that, there probably aren't enough meito around for every strong swordsman in the grand line..

I don't think it's just for bragging rights. Oda is still making a big deal of the sword's grade, and thus quality, increasing when it's blackened.

Smoker's jutte isn't a named weapon though. It's also been broken before by Boa too, so I doubt it's supposed to be on the level of Meito. Basic weapons can still be broken, but Meito can withstand.

It's hard to say if it'll make or break them, but definitely see lacking one in a high level fight being a detriment to them. If it didn't matter as much, it wouldn't make any sense for Oda to put as much emphasis on them as he is.

Through Zoro, the implications seem to be that to master stronger swords, you need to become a stronger swordsman, but the series hasn't been consistent with that idea. We don't know if Mihawk or Whitebeard had to go through what Zoro did when they got their meito, such as learning to tune attack strength or it's haki regulation.

It's a weird conflict, at least, in my opinion.

 

[Nie Li]

Smoker's jutte isn't a named weapon though. It's also been broken before by Boa too, so I doubt it's supposed to be on the level of Meito. Basic weapons can still be broken, but Meito can withstand.

I just want to comment something on this particular line.
Smoker's jutte indeed isn't a named weapon. It's not even a bladed weapon. But I'm not sure any weapon in the One Piece world could withstand the way the jutte or Zoro's Yubashiri broke: By being hit with specific DF powers that are pretty much anti-weapon. I think a strongest swordsman could save his weapon by coating it in strong CoA haki, but then it's again the merits of the swordsman's skill and not of the blade's grade.

Of course higher grade means for sure higher durability, but most examples in the series of swords breaking are through hax DF skills (Hancock petrified the jutte and the stone broke, and Yubashiri was rusted away in seconds despite being a named blade).

 

[kkck]

I don't think it's just for bragging rights. Oda is still making a big deal of the sword's grade, and thus quality, increasing when it's blackened.

Smoker's jutte isn't a named weapon though. It's also been broken before by Boa too, so I doubt it's supposed to be on the level of Meito. Basic weapons can still be broken, but Meito can withstand.

It's hard to say if it'll make or break them, but definitely see lacking one in a high level fight being a detriment to them. If it didn't matter as much, it wouldn't make any sense for Oda to put as much emphasis on them as he is.

Through Zoro, the implications seem to be that to master stronger swords, you need to become a stronger swordsman, but the series hasn't been consistent with that idea. We don't know if Mihawk or Whitebeard had to go through what Zoro did when they got their meito, such as learning to tune attack strength or it's haki regulation.

It's a weird conflict, at least, in my opinion.

I wasn't insinuating vergo's weapon was a meito. As far as I know it isn't. My point was about quality. Smoker's weapon isn't a meito BUT in turn vergo's weapon is barely even a weapon, it was a simple bamboo stick. Now, it is true that meito can withstand hits from extremely powerful people and not be destroyed (hence why zoro's meito survived the hit from mihawk back at the baratie arc). But the implication in the series so far appears to be that once your haki is good enough even average weapons can work for high level combat.

I mean, either the weapon makes or break a swordsman or... it doesn't. I don't think there's that much of a middle ground between those. I don't see how there can be that much of a middle ground between those. IIRC zoro has had to adjust to his meito but it's always been a bit of an afterthought. With kitetsu there was the luck thing but... that's hard to make anything out of. I think oda did that because it looked cool tbh. With wado there was never much of a learning curve, even though it's been one of zoro's best swords. With shunsui zoro did make the point the sword was temperamental or something to that effect but he went on to never mention that again. Enma of course has the haki thing but I've made the point that once zoro masters that it will simply improve his overall haki. Hence the boost will ultimately apply to all his swords. Though enma will likely get a passing mention of its cutting powers at times.

We don't know about other meito but... TBH I don't think it matters whether other meito had their users go through this. Eventually they will have to master it anyways. As in, whatever it is that zoro got out of enma is very likely not going to be unique to him. Plot wise this was simply a way to take zoro's haki to a higher level.

 

[HereNThere]

I just want to comment something on this particular line.

Smoker's jutte indeed isn't a named weapon. It's not even a bladed weapon. But I'm not sure any weapon in the One Piece world could withstand the way the jutte or Zoro's Yubashiri broke: By being hit with specific DF powers that are pretty much anti-weapon. I think a strongest swordsman could save his weapon by coating it in strong CoA haki, but then it's again the merits of the swordsman's skill and not of the blade's grade.

Of course higher grade means for sure higher durability, but most examples in the series of swords breaking are through hax DF skills (Hancock petrified the jutte and the stone broke, and Yubashiri was rusted away in seconds despite being a named blade).

I don't expect swords, no matter their quality, to take on DF’s directly. At the end of the day, Meito are still fairly normal weapons, high quality, but normal nonetheless (Enma’s haki shenanigans notwithstanding). And Devil Fruit’s are...well, not normal. They don’t follow the natural laws, so they can do some weird stuff. I do agree that, in that case, it’s the merits of the swordperson.

My example of Smoker’s jutte being broken by Boa was just my attempt to point out that Smoker’s particular weapon can be mass produced to some extent and may not be as quality as a Meito. It can be broken without much fanfare basically because it can be replaced.

I wasn't insinuating vergo's weapon was a meito. As far as I know it isn't. My point was about quality. Smoker's weapon isn't a meito BUT in turn vergo's weapon is barely even a weapon, it was a simple bamboo stick. Now, it is true that meito can withstand hits from extremely powerful people and not be destroyed (hence why zoro's meito survived the hit from mihawk back at the baratie arc). But the implication in the series so far appears to be that once your haki is good enough even average weapons can work for high level combat.

I mean, either the weapon makes or break a swordsman or... it doesn't. I don't think there's that much of a middle ground between those. I don't see how there can be that much of a middle ground between those. IIRC zoro has had to adjust to his meito but it's always been a bit of an afterthought. With kitetsu there was the luck thing but... that's hard to make anything out of. I think oda did that because it looked cool tbh. With wado there was never much of a learning curve, even though it's been one of zoro's best swords. With shunsui zoro did make the point the sword was temperamental or something to that effect but he went on to never mention that again. Enma of course has the haki thing but I've made the point that once zoro masters that it will simply improve his overall haki. Hence the boost will ultimately apply to all his swords. Though enma will likely get a passing mention of its cutting powers at times.

We don't know about other meito but... TBH I don't think it matters whether other meito had their users go through this. Eventually they will have to master it anyways. As in, whatever it is that zoro got out of enma is very likely not going to be unique to him. Plot wise this was simply a way to take zoro's haki to a higher level.

I know you weren’t and I didn’t think I implied that you did. His bamboo stick is most definitely not a meito and I definitely don’t think it’s on the level of one. I think it was mainly to demonstrate that his haki was decently strong.

My personal issue is that we don’t know where a Meito’s quality begins and one’s strength of haki begins. It’d be different if Oda dropped the whole grade thing quietly and just focused on the haki aspect of it, but him saying that one blackening their sword will increase the grade of the sword implies that it is relevant to their level of power. In Zoro’s case, Enma will also increase the overall control/strength of his haki, but it’ll also come with the added benefit that, when it does happen, all of his swords will get a grade increase, giving him 2 Supreme Grade blades eventually. That has to mean something. At least, I’d prefer it’d mean something.

It would matter to me, mainly because I’d like some sort of consistency and I don’t like the idea of Meito being rendered completely obsolete by haki’s existence. I want the two to at least work together. Otherwise, the whole grade system wouldn’t be worth anything anymore.

It's probably nitpicking on my end, but this does bother me. So that's why I'm basically thinking that Enma will basically become a tangible power up as well as being a haki training "device".

 

[kkck]

I know you weren’t and I didn’t think I implied that you did. His bamboo stick is most definitely not a meito and I definitely don’t think it’s on the level of one. I think it was mainly to demonstrate that his haki was decently strong.

My personal issue is that we don’t know where a Meito’s quality begins and one’s strength of haki begins. It’d be different if Oda dropped the whole grade thing quietly and just focused on the haki aspect of it, but him saying that one blackening their sword will increase the grade of the sword implies that it is relevant to their level of power. In Zoro’s case, Enma will also increase the overall control/strength of his haki, but it’ll also come with the added benefit that, when it does happen, all of his swords will get a grade increase, giving him 2 Supreme Grade blades eventually. That has to mean something. At least, I’d prefer it’d mean something.

It would matter to me, mainly because I’d like some sort of consistency and I don’t like the idea of Meito being rendered completely obsolete by haki’s existence. I want the two to at least work together. Otherwise, the whole grade system wouldn’t be worth anything anymore.

It's probably nitpicking on my end, but this does bother me. So that's why I'm basically thinking that Enma will basically become a tangible power up as well as being a haki training "device".

That's pretty much the gist of it haki wise. Also, consider good old pica. He made the point that zoro wouldn't be able to cut him if his haki wasn't stronger. Of course, zoro did cut him but by all appearances at this level haki alone is sufficient for even your bare body provided it is simply stronger than that of your enemy. I assume there are other factors at play though. Like how much you are focusing or defense or event he amount of haki you place somewhere. So if in OP even your bare body can resist slashes given the right circumstances it's kinda hard to imagine that a sword being a meito or not would be that big a game changer. Haki is ultimately the core of combat in this series and it was introduced as a bit of an equalizer. As in, just being a logia doesn't mean you are invincible (heck, with haki a lot of fruits end up being more competitive than even logias), just using a weapon doesn't mean you can harm your enemy, being invisible doesn't mean you can just take out everyone without them seeing it coming..... Haki makes all blades kokuto rather than you being able to lord your unparalleled blade. That is not to say that intangibility isn't a powerful skill or that weapon quality is altogether irrelevant or that being invisible is useless... It's just not plot breaking.

 

[King Moe]

wrong. Kinemon was scared to use enma because he couldn't control it. Just like momosuke did. Sanji would die if he tries to use enma, too. Sanji isn't good at CoA. See how vergo broke sanji legs easily (vergo's CoA > sanji's CoA). Doflamingo didn't even bother to use hardening when he fought sanji (while he did against non G4 luffy). Sanji isn't that flexible, either to be honest. Drake easily hit sanji only by swinging his tail.

raid suit is a powerup when sanji himself said that RS is a durable armor. Sanji isnt going to be haki expert, but high-technology fighter. Oda wants to make the SHP as fighters with variety of fighting style so i understand why he doesn't make sanji to be haki expert

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 1, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 1, 2020 ---

clearly to be antagonistic towards zoro, which is a bad habit since it's irrelevant for the discussion here

No, he didn't out of respect, never he stated he tried before and couldn't do it. That is your headcannon there as much as stating Zoro never fainted in his fight with Kamazou when he did. Sanji would easily tame that thing like how he is good with wield weapons than we realize. Sanji got better COA than him and flexibility to use it offensively and defensively unlike how Zoro went in his past fights on his Haki issues. We can't say for sure on Doffy as he could be using Haki in invisible kind or it's like with Rayleigh case on Oda doesn't show it was higher level until in future chapter to hide it. You got no proof on that and Sanji tank Drake's attack like nothing and kept fighting unlike Zoro who ran away from Kyoshiro when he couldn't get by even with darkening his blades while Kyoshiro played with him like a fiddle and he wasn't even an enemy and just pretending XD.

RS doesn't boost power though as invisibility doesn't do anything on your power except on stealth more, so nah Sanji is Haki expert especially Oda stated on his abilities both shown and outside of the manga on how strong he is. He use RS as a means for disguise and stealth missions, but never means of power unlike Enma sword where magically can give to anyone and they can be strong as long they have Haki to handle it. Sanji does have his fighting style which is his legs along with Haki included. That doesn't make sense they shouldn't have Haki when we got Usopp with COO who probably shown better with it compare to Zoro on his COO given his injuries he gets around.

Nah, just telling he truth, but your antagonistic to Sanji as shown as your even saying Sanji isn't strong without RS which is headcannon biased there. eave S vs Z and admit your fault when your can't back anything up.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 1, 2020 ---

Come on, clearly the context when kinemon spoke was about the sword just being dangerous in general. And kitetsu specifically makes the point that only oden had succeeded in mastering the blade. It's not necessarily the case that any one scabbard would be able to handle it... let alone sanji, a guy who has never evidenced advanced haki of any kind nor even has a relevant skillset for a sword, other than cutting noodles.

We have no proof that they tried to holding it, but fail to tame it though as it's more due to how they see Oden they don't want to attempt it, but seeing how Kinemon and others were able to even damage Kaido with their weapons, their Haki are at high level to control it. I don't think Enma is something no one can't handle except for Zoro as that is illogical there. Sanji has shown COA Hardening already and have wielded weapons prior, so Idk what you eman there as that more your opinion than fact on your pointing out. Zoro isn't only one to handle Enma as we can list several characters above him who could do it better than him easily.

 

[kkck]

We have no proof that they tried to holding it, but fail to tame it though as it's more due to how they see Oden they don't want to attempt it, but seeing how Kinemon and others were able to even damage Kaido with their weapons, their Haki are at high level to control it. I don't think Enma is something no one can't handle except for Zoro as that is illogical there. Sanji has shown COA Hardening already and have wielded weapons prior, so Idk what you eman there as that more your opinion than fact on your pointing out. Zoro isn't only one to handle Enma as we can list several characters above him who could do it better than him easily.

but... do we need proof of that? I am not saying it is impossible for the scabbards to use it either, just that it isn't necessarily the case. It's entirely possible that, say, denjiro has it in him to use the sword but kinemon or kawamatsu. And the context from that scene remains the same: Enma is dangerous. We also don't know why the scabbards were able to injure kaido. As it's pretty much plain dumb to suggest any of the scabbards is comparable to oden.. Overall it's simply not a scene that makes a lot of sense. It's possible shenanigans were simply at play then. Like how big mom is invulnerable except when emotionally disturbed... As for sanji, it is an unquestionable manga fact that during the manga's near 1000 chapter run there is not 1 confirmed instance of sanji using hardening. Or any form of advanced armor haki. The best case that can be made for sanji is that his regular old invisible armor haki is pretty strong. Which is reasonable and wholly explains what we have seen from him. BUT that is also entirely irrelevant to whether sanji has or has evidenced any form of advanced COA (he simply hasn't yet).

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

No, he didn't out of respect, never he stated he tried before and couldn't do it. That is your headcannon there as much as stating Zoro never fainted in his fight with Kamazou when he did. Sanji would easily tame that thing like how he is good with wield weapons than we realize. Sanji got better COA than him and flexibility to use it offensively and defensively unlike how Zoro went in his past fights on his Haki issues. We can't say for sure on Doffy as he could be using Haki in invisible kind or it's like with Rayleigh case on Oda doesn't show it was higher level until in future chapter to hide it. You got no proof on that and Sanji tank Drake's attack like nothing and kept fighting unlike Zoro who ran away from Kyoshiro when he couldn't get by even with darkening his blades while Kyoshiro played with him like a fiddle and he wasn't even an enemy and just pretending XD.

RS doesn't boost power though as invisibility doesn't do anything on your power except on stealth more, so nah Sanji is Haki expert especially Oda stated on his abilities both shown and outside of the manga on how strong he is. He use RS as a means for disguise and stealth missions, but never means of power unlike Enma sword where magically can give to anyone and they can be strong as long they have Haki to handle it. Sanji does have his fighting style which is his legs along with Haki included. That doesn't make sense they shouldn't have Haki when we got Usopp with COO who probably shown better with it compare to Zoro on his COO given his injuries he gets around.

Nah, just telling he truth, but your antagonistic to Sanji as shown as your even saying Sanji isn't strong without RS which is headcannon biased there. eave S vs Z and admit your fault when your can't back anything up.

can you give me proof that i said zoro never fainted? Because what i said is that zoro only fainted after he beat killer.
Doffy doesn't have advanced CoA like rayleigh. If he does, he would use it against luffy. Doffy didn't even bother to use haki against sanji.

not being antagonistic at sanji, just telling you facts. Don't blame me for being critical.
I am just saying that sanji doesn't become haki expert, but he goes technology route like franky or nami. What's wrong with that? It's not like franky is weak, either

 

[King Moe]

can you give me proof that i said zoro never fainted? Because what i said is that zoro only fainted after he beat killer.
Doffy doesn't have advanced CoA like rayleigh. If he does, he would use it against luffy. Doffy didn't even bother to use haki against sanji.

not being antagonistic at sanji, just telling you facts. Don't blame me for being critical.
I am just saying that sanji doesn't become haki expert, but he goes technology route like franky or nami. What's wrong with that? It's not like franky is weak, either

You stated Zoro wins and didn't tied due to fainting, so your pushing narration on Zoro never fainted with nerf foe like Kamazou. It's not a win nor lose if you faint with your enemy.

Neither does Zoro have Adv COA either, so nothing pushes to him to face Doffy and beat him especially you are fainted down by Kamazou and Gifters can hold you back while Doflamingo just clear away fodders when chasing Luffy during his time limit with G4. There is reason why Zoro is unable to cut Birdcage as he is and maybe now can't face someone like Doffy in full fight and no proof he didn't use Haki against Sanji since Invisible Haki is still a thing. He needed even to block his attacks and restrain him, so he isn't exactly tanking them as if he felt nothing as he wouldn't comment on his strength.

You are being one and your not at all. Just stating true facts while your unable to admit it. Sanji is Haki Expert combine with his own fighting style and RS isn't apart of that main fight style as he still fights the same without and with RS. Enma though is clear fact on something giving you power but not by your skill though since anyone can wield Enma unlike RS.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 1, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 1, 2020 ---

but... do we need proof of that? I am not saying it is impossible for the scabbards to use it either, just that it isn't necessarily the case. It's entirely possible that, say, denjiro has it in him to use the sword but kinemon or kawamatsu. And the context from that scene remains the same: Enma is dangerous. We also don't know why the scabbards were able to injure kaido. As it's pretty much plain dumb to suggest any of the scabbards is comparable to oden.. Overall it's simply not a scene that makes a lot of sense. It's possible shenanigans were simply at play then. Like how big mom is invulnerable except when emotionally disturbed... As for sanji, it is an unquestionable manga fact that during the manga's near 1000 chapter run there is not 1 confirmed instance of sanji using hardening. Or any form of advanced armor haki. The best case that can be made for sanji is that his regular old invisible armor haki is pretty strong. Which is reasonable and wholly explains what we have seen from him. BUT that is also entirely irrelevant to whether sanji has or has evidenced any form of advanced COA (he simply hasn't yet).

Do you have proof they try and failed though? We can go back and forth on this, but you can't denounced them able to do it as looking at recent chapters if they are able to harm Kaido with their own weapons, think of it enhanced by Oden's swords as it make sense given they trained with each other with him and know how to wield their swordsmanship too. Not saying they are as strong as Oden, but they are at least able to handle Enma and maybe close or at point of power he was when he was younger, but not his Prime. We shouldn't down that at all. Oda wouldn't give them to be able to cut Kaido if their power wasn't enough, so we shouldn't down them and their Haki.

More like you can't admit color scheme is in the way of seeing it as he has shown to have high level Haki not just in his COO, but COA too. Not saying it's Luffy's lvl of getting Adv. COA, but he can do Hardening at this point. Given what we seen, no one can have low level Haki if he was capable damaging credible threats and blocking them too. Many things are shown on this especially you wouldn't get far if your not training your COA especially to damage your foes. Color scheme is the issue as you can't see well in the darken shade if he using it or not same way we can't tell if King was using COA or not given his color scheme too. You shouldn't overthink stuff like that when it's clear on why Haki is harder to see on characters like that given their appearance.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

You stated Zoro wins and didn't tied due to fainting, so your pushing narration on Zoro never fainted with nerf foe like Kamazou. It's not a win nor lose if you faint with your enemy.

Neither does Zoro have Adv COA either, so nothing pushes to him to face Doffy and beat him especially you are fainted down by Kamazou and Gifters can hold you back while Doflamingo just clear away fodders when chasing Luffy during his time limit with G4. There is reason why Zoro is unable to cut Birdcage as he is and maybe now can't face someone like Doffy in full fight and no proof he didn't use Haki against Sanji since Invisible Haki is still a thing. He needed even to block his attacks and restrain him, so he isn't exactly tanking them as if he felt nothing as he wouldn't comment on his strength.

You are being one and your not at all. Just stating true facts while your unable to admit it. Sanji is Haki Expert combine with his own fighting style and RS isn't apart of that main fight style as he still fights the same without and with RS. Enma though is clear fact on something giving you power but not by your skill though since anyone can wield Enma unlike RS.

it's a win when you are the last one standing. See zoro fight with Mr. 1. The narrator literally stated that as zoro's win.

invisible basic haki is used only for attack (which is a subpar haki usage), hardening is the one used for defence. Doflamingo didn't use hardening at all against sanji. He laughed at sanji and toyed with him. Sanji clearly is not meant to be haki expert, hence the use of technology to boost his status.

you need to be good at haki control to use enma, otherwise enma would suck all your haki to death. How does that mean anyone can wield enma? Explain that.

 

[kkck]

it's a win when you are the last one standing. See zoro fight with Mr. 1. The narrator literally stated that as zoro's win.

invisible basic haki is used only for attack (which is a subpar haki usage), hardening is the one used for defence. Doflamingo didn't use hardening at all against sanji. He laughed at sanji and toyed with him. Sanji clearly is not meant to be haki expert, hence the use of technology to boost his status.

you need to be good at haki control to use enma, otherwise enma would suck all your haki to death. How does that mean anyone can wield enma? Explain that.

Hardening is used for offense as well. It's pretty much a direct upgrade over invisible haki. I would think sanji is meant to be a haki expert, to me what is questionable is how long he will rely on the suit. Could the suit even protect sanji from projected haki? or haki that causes internal damage? IMO sanji will either learn advanced haki techniques or jinbe will take his spot in the monster trio. Heck, sanji doesn't really have any technical know how... it'd be absurd if he even kept up with franky, ussop or nami in the long run...

 

[Monox D. I-Fly]

You stated Zoro wins and didn't tied due to fainting, so your pushing narration on Zoro never fainted with nerf foe like Kamazou. It's not a win nor lose if you faint with your enemy.

So what my friend said 15 years ago was correct that Luffy didn't win against Don Krieg since he's also fainted instantly afterward due to falling in the ocean.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Oden was shown at 9 years old wielding Enma. To say that a seasoned haki expert couldn't wield Enma better than a 9 year old Oden is just absurd.

If you can masterfully utilize flow haki, you can wield Enma.

Luffy, who mastered haki to not just the 1st advanced CoA level but the 2nd could easily wield Enma and that's just a basic fact. Hyo could probably also wield it.

It's not just a Zoro and Oden thing, its a haki control thing. Enma is just to push the narrative that Zoro will be able to cut Kaido, which he will.

 

[King Moe]

So what my friend said 15 years ago was correct that Luffy didn't win against Don Krieg since he's also fainted instantly afterward due to falling in the ocean.

DF user weakness compare to normal Human? Like how your blatant ignoring canon thing and act like it wouldn't happen to any DF user and Luffy didn't faint because he was exhausted in battle. He was drowning and can't swim cause of canon weakness. Not same to guy who got stab easily and faint the next. By that logic Big Mom is weaker than that given she got weak when falling into the sea when we all know it's standard DF weakness. No one is immune to it.