Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[King Moe]

There's no evidence that Garp's punch was haki related. Literally, Luffy never thought of Garp when Rayleigh told him about Color of Armament, despite the fact that Garp was able to hurt him over and over.

Though being his grandfather can have inspiration why he fights with his fists even he won't admit it. He does know now that Garp uses COA to hurt Luffy back then and even now.

 

[MaoTheDong]

In other words, you like psychopaths who can pretend to be nice people... or genuinely be nice... and then decide to kill 100s of thousands of people at a whim.

Hell Yeah, I do. In manga that is I really enjoy Kaido as an antagonist, almost as much as I liked Crocodile. That one is on Oda, being able to keep me emotionally invested in a character and make me feel sympathetic towards him whom - in real life - I would of course despise (if you were wondering whether I like suicidal, murdering people in real life....nah, not that much). That is the power of literature.
(i just recently read a book about a lawyer killing one of his clients, because he became a little problematic. It was a joy to read)

And to the evil part, I maybe did not phrase that one too well.
Do not get me wrong, of course Kaido is evil. Dude doesn't mind a country's downfall, cooking someone alive (even though that certain someone already was as hardboiled as one could be) or killing an 8 year old kid for the sake of his own ambition.
My judgement could be clouded because of my sympathy towards him, but I can't bring myself to think of him as pure evil.

BM on the other hand, for me: Clearly evil. A natural talent at that. Now again, that is how I perceive her. We could talk about how do the things she did make her more evil than Kaido or vice versa. But we would have to step into a juridical grey area of determining different layers of evil, and I don't even want to open that box.

Although I enjoyed the punch that Luffy delivered to Kaido's face, as he obviously felt that one, and I get that Kaido had to be hit first, I would have loved if BM were the one that had received that blow.


I really do wonder if Kaido is doing what he does for the whole sake of warmongering and bringing chaos to the world or if there maybe is a hidden agenda that he is following. We will soon find out.

Good to have you back on board, man. Keep sailing

 

[M3J]

Though being his grandfather can have inspiration why he fights with his fists even he won't admit it. He does know now that Garp uses COA to hurt Luffy back then and even now.

Where's the evidence for that? As far as I know, it's up in the air.

 

[King Moe]

Where's the evidence for that? As far as I know, it's up in the air.

Garp fights with fists, Luffy fights with fists the same. Pretty sure he got his style to fight inspired by Garp or genetic for family. Not farfetched given Luffy still loves his grandpa.

 

[Nie Li]

There's no evidence that Garp's punch was haki related. Literally, Luffy never thought of Garp when Rayleigh told him about Color of Armament, despite the fact that Garp was able to hurt him over and over.

Everyone's reaction to how easily Luffy was hurt by his punch despite Luffy being made of rubber was very similar to Crocodile's reaction to BB hurting Luffy with a hit (in his case, this was through the yami yami).

Somehow Garp ignored Luffy's rubber properties and hurt him like a normal human.

While not directly claimed to have been haki, it was clear that Garp was using "something", and though the scene was never revisited, that something turned out to be Garp's only weapon: haki. Haki counters him as hard as it counters logias.

As to why he didn't think of Garp in the scene that you mention, I don't know, but my guess is that he never saw Garp use emission, which is what Rayleigh showcased.

 

[M3J]

Garp fights with fists, Luffy fights with fists the same. Pretty sure he got his style to fight inspired by Garp or genetic for family. Not farfetched given Luffy still loves his grandpa.

That makes no sense.

Everyone's reaction to how easily Luffy was hurt by his punch despite Luffy being made of rubber was very similar to Crocodile's reaction to BB hurting Luffy with a hit (in his case, this was through the yami yami).

Somehow Garp ignored Luffy's rubber properties and hurt him like a normal human.

While not directly claimed to have been haki, it was clear that Garp was using "something", and though the scene was never revisited, that something turned out to be Garp's only weapon: haki. Haki counters him as hard as it counters logias.

As to why he didn't think of Garp in the scene that you mention, I don't know, but my guess is that he never saw Garp use emission, which is what Rayleigh showcased.

Or simply, Garp didn't use haki to hit Luffy, and probably because of a combination of gag and haki not really being fleshed out. Doesn't equate to him using anything but plain fist power.

 

[Ellenate]

it could also be that garp wasn't bullshitting about "love" and it can legitimately be used as a sort of weapon.


vivi was able to make luffy bleed during their fight.
it'd make all those gag fights real too.

 

[Moss Green]

What?



You just said their translation is wrong, lol.

This is honestly the funniest thing ever. HP proving Moegara’s point about misinterpretation by misinterpreting his point. Brilliant.

@HP for as many “debates” you’ve purported to have on this site, and ironically enough be incredibly wrong about, you don’t actually read what anyone presents to you. Your faux displays of intelligence with your convoluted theory novels and prattling on and on with your screenshots is incredibly transparent. Grow up and learn how to have a actual dialogue with someone, the actual important bit is stepping back and actually reflecting on how what you’ve presented is interpreted. Not willfully nitpicking grammar or phrasing completely ignoring the actual substance of the statement. A novel concept I’m sure. You’re not the only culprit unfortunately, that’s the defining feature of this fan base these days. The usual suspects here are all pretty well known.

But the incessant condescension with your “nope”s and “bud”s continues to highlight your immaturity to the rest of us. You do this again and again, never acknowledging the previous flaws in your reasoning to refine your thinking going forward. For someone who references algebra and logic as frequently as you do the scientific method appears to be lost on you. Do yourself a favor and let whatever it is that drives you to this go. You’ll be much better off for it. Cheers!

 

[M3J]

Weren't Nami, Sanji, and even Usopp able to hurt LUffy in Part I as well? I'm not sure if it can be proved that Garp used haki on Luffy - didn't Luffy feel pain from the cheek pinches as well?

 

[Fox666]

Weren't Nami, Sanji, and even Usopp able to hurt LUffy in Part I as well? I'm not sure if it can be proved that Garp used haki on Luffy - didn't Luffy feel pain from the cheek pinches as well?

At least nobody reacted to it as something abnormal

Wouldn't that mean Garp did something special?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

This is honestly the funniest thing ever. HP proving Moegara’s point about misinterpretation by misinterpreting his point. Brilliant.

@HP for as many “debates” you’ve purported to have on this site, and ironically enough be incredibly wrong about, you don’t actually read what anyone presents to you. Your faux displays of intelligence with your convoluted theory novels and prattling on and on with your screenshots is incredibly transparent. Grow up and learn how to have a actual dialogue with someone, the actual important bit is stepping back and actually reflecting on how what you’ve presented is interpreted. Not willfully nitpicking grammar or phrasing completely ignoring the actual substance of the statement. A novel concept I’m sure. You’re not the only culprit unfortunately, that’s the defining feature of this fan base these days. The usual suspects here are all pretty well known.

But the incessant condescension with your “nope”s and “bud”s continues to highlight your immaturity to the rest of us. You do this again and again, never acknowledging the previous flaws in your reasoning to refine your thinking going forward. For someone who references algebra and logic as frequently as you do the scientific method appears to be lost on you. Do yourself a favor and let whatever it is that drives you to this go. You’ll be much better off for it. Cheers!

You're entitled to your opinion, just stating facts.

If you want to prove my point wrong, pick my points apart. No point crying.

It's just sadly lost on the majority of you that all Ryou means is Haki.

It's not a new type of Haki.

Even Luffy said the Haki Rayleigh used is the one he's been using since the time-skip.

For some reason people somehow supposedly read the series in the most logical form think Luffy is learning Haki when he's learnt it from Rayleigh.

If all you did was read the text properly, it literally states that Hyo simply said he's a mighty blade (a title given to master Swordsmen who can convey their will)... and he doesn't know if he can teach Luffy the Mighty Blade technique. You simply have no idea what Mighty Blade means, and that's why the majority of you have this misconception that Ryuo is something different to Haki.

It's not complex at all. You think Luffy really needs to learn or Haki? or needs to learn something else he can use with Haki? It should be obvious, but it isn't unfortunately.

Less crying, and more actual points to refute my claim.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 28, 2020 ---

Somehow Garp ignored Luffy's rubber properties and hurt him like a normal human.

Wrong.

Haki doesn't ignore the properties of rubber.

It only does so in the case of the Logia or DFs that are not solid.

Rubber is solid last time I checked, lol.

With your inconsistent logic, the Kids at Punk Hazard are Haki users.

 

[Nie Li]

That makes no sense.



Or simply, Garp didn't use haki to hit Luffy, and probably because of a combination of gag and haki not really being fleshed out. Doesn't equate to him using anything but plain fist power.

It was not (only) a gag or the fact that it hurt Luffy wouldn't have been highlighted by the characters.

Though, indeed, it was a whole arc before haki was properly explained, I haven't seen reasons in the later manga to believe Oda changed his mind about how enemy haki interacts with Luffy's body.

 

[Fox666]

Nami punching scene is just a gag

Sometimes you have to think of this as just fiction, and that some comedic scenes don't make much sense

Example:

Incredible! Does Usopp has the same ability of Buggy to de-attach his body parts at will?

Same goes for Nami hurting Luffy, even when even a cannonball cannot hurt him

Garp on the other hand is using Haki to hurt Luffy, since it has been pointed out in-universe that he's doing something that shouldn't be possible.

 

[M3J]

At least nobody reacted to it as something abnormal

Wouldn't that mean Garp did something special?

Highly doubt it, primarily due to lack of any mention after that. Why wouldn't Luffy at least think about that, given how often Garp beat him up?

It was not (only) a gag or the fact that it hurt Luffy wouldn't have been highlighted by the characters.

Though, indeed, it was a whole arc before haki was properly explained, I haven't seen reasons in the later manga to believe Oda changed his mind about how enemy haki interacts with Luffy's body.

I mean, someone else being able to hurt Luffy was probably shocking to them, especially when they didn't know anything about Garp. Otherwise it seems Luffy getting hurt by friends and allies don't surprise his crew mates as much.

Garp on the other hand is using Haki to hurt Luffy, since it has been pointed out in-universe that he's doing something that shouldn't be possible.

Given that he can hurl cannonballs with his own hands, I'm not sure if it's impossible for him to hurt Luffy without haki. Again, didn't he pinch kid Luffy's cheek, and Luffy was wondering why it hurt?

 

[Nie Li]

Highly doubt it, primarily due to lack of any mention after that. Why wouldn't Luffy at least think about that, given how often Garp beat him up?

I mean, someone else being able to hurt Luffy was probably shocking to them, especially when they didn't know anything about Garp. Otherwise it seems Luffy getting hurt by friends and allies don't surprise his crew mates as much.

I remember the scene was seen as a mystery by readers for a long while. It got people thinking why Luffy was hurt. It wasn't normal. Earlier in the series it was impossible to harm Luffy with anything that wasn't a stab. It was made a point in chapter 2 and even by the time Garp came around, even Lucci's shigans (which are, in the end, very powerful focused strikes) failed to pierce him without his zoan claws.

When Nami hurts him it's just for laughs. Otherwise even if Luffy wasn't made of rubber she wouldn't have enough strength to hurt him nor Zoro. With the kind of resilience they have, they'd barely feel her, but they do, for the sake of jokes.

The punch from Garp wasn't a gag.

There's also an SBS in which someone asks "was it thanks to haki or thanks to love that Garp could punch Luffy?" to which Oda answered "In this case, it was the power of love!", joking as he usually does, but I think it's pretty obvious that both the reader that sent the question and Oda, that didn't find the question weird, acknowledge that haki must be used to be able to "punch" Luffy. Otherwise Oda would have found the question strange or he would have busted "the myth" that Luffy cannot be harmed like that without haki, but he didn't, and I believe that it's because it's no myth.

Given that he can hurl cannonballs with his own hands, I'm not sure if it's impossible for him to hurt Luffy without haki. Again, didn't he pinch kid Luffy's cheek, and Luffy was wondering why it hurt?

I don't remember the scene with kid Luffy, but doesn't it support that he's using haki to hurt him?
If haki allows Garp to treat Luffy as if it weren't made of rubber, it should work equally fine with a punch or with a pinch.

 

[M3J]

I remember the scene was seen as a mystery by readers for a long while. It got people thinking why Luffy was hurt. It wasn't normal. Earlier in the series it was impossible to harm Luffy with anything that wasn't a stab. It was made a point in chapter 2 and even by the time Garp came around, even Lucci's shigans (which are, in the end, very powerful focused strikes) failed to pierce him without his zoan claws.

When Nami hurts him it's just for laughs. Otherwise even if Luffy wasn't made of rubber she wouldn't have enough strength to hurt him nor Zoro. With the kind of resilience they have, they'd barely feel her, but they do, for the sake of jokes.

The punch from Garp wasn't a gag.

There's also an SBS in which someone asks "was it thanks to haki or thanks to love that Garp could punch Luffy?" to which Oda answered "In this case, it was the power of love!", joking as he usually does, but I think it's pretty obvious that both the reader that sent the question and Oda, that didn't find the question weird, acknowledge that haki must be used to be able to "punch" Luffy. Otherwise Oda would have found the question strange or he would have busted "the myth" that Luffy cannot be harmed like that without haki, but he didn't, and I believe that it's because it's no myth.


I don't remember the scene with kid Luffy, but doesn't it support that he's using haki to hurt him?
If haki allows Garp to treat Luffy as if it weren't made of rubber, it should work equally fine with a punch or with a pinch.

I mean, even I thought it was a mystery but this is Garp, Luffy's grandfather who's known to be as unpredictable and has immense strength, so it's hard to believe he used haki with Luffy. Given how Garp treats Luffy, and Luffy's description of how Garp treated/trained him, I've no reason to believe that it's serious and not a gag. The Marineford War could have told us otherwise had Garp hit Luffy, but I guess we might see in the future.

Was there any implication or mention that he used haki to hit Marco? Otherwise is that up in the air but assumed he did?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 28, 2020 ---

I don't remember the scene with kid Luffy, but doesn't it support that he's using haki to hurt him?
If haki allows Garp to treat Luffy as if it weren't made of rubber, it should work equally fine with a punch or with a pinch.

I think it was at the start of the flashback after Ace died, but also during the war right before Luffy punched Garp. Kid Luffy was wondering why it hurt.

Probably, and I was thinking that, but again, up in the air. Had Garp been an enemy or not a comical character, then I'd agree it's haki.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It got people thinking why Luffy was hurt. It wasn't normal. Earlier in the series it was impossible to harm Luffy with anything that wasn't a stab. It was made a point in chapter 2 and even by the time Garp came around, even Lucci's shigans (which are, in the end, very powerful focused strikes) failed to pierce him without his zoan claws.

When Nami hurts him it's just for laughs. Otherwise even if Luffy wasn't made of rubber she wouldn't have enough strength to hurt him nor Zoro. With the kind of resilience they have, they'd barely feel her, but they do, for the sake of jokes.

The punch from Garp wasn't a gag.

There's also an SBS in which someone asks "was it thanks to haki or thanks to love that Garp could punch Luffy?" to which Oda answered "In this case, it was the power of love!", joking as he usually does, but I think it's pretty obvious that both the reader that sent the question and Oda, that didn't find the question weird, acknowledge that haki must be used to be able to "punch" Luffy. Otherwise Oda would have found the question strange or he would have busted "the myth" that Luffy cannot be harmed like that without haki, but he didn't, and I believe that it's because it's no myth.

There are many many panels of Luffy being hurt without Haki.

Even against Lucci, he was hurt. His only saving grace is that rubber doesn't break because his bones are rubbery.

Luffy is NOT immune to blunt attacks and only susceptible to sharp attacks.

He simply has HIGH RESISTANCE to blunt attacks meaning blunt attacks have to be significantly powerful to hurt him.

It's absolutely a myth unless you believe kids in Punk Hazard are Haki users.

The simple answer is Luffy is simply not immune to blunt attacks nor does he need Haki to be hurt. The only thing Haki does is make attacks HARDER and STRONGER, so they are more likely to hurt.

It's no different to a wall. A wall will not break to weak force.. does this mean the wall requires Haki to be broken? No. It will break to a strong force. Luffy being rubber means that average punches simply won't do much to him. All rubber does is offer Luffy a higher threshold against blunt attacks... he's still susceptible to them. It's simply a matter of power and force production.

Issue is many readers don't question things or make sense of things logically. They just believe things even when there's a clear contradiction. Or they make up really bad rationalisations or excuses.

 

[hokageji]

Somehow Garp ignored Luffy's rubber properties and hurt him like a normal human.

While not directly claimed to have been haki, it was clear that Garp was using "something", and though the scene was never revisited, that something turned out to be Garp's only weapon: haki. Haki counters him as hard as it counters logias.

I think rubber just reduces the damage level, so if Garp's strength is extremely high, he could hurt Luffy even if he didn't use haki. It could still be revealed later on that Garp used haki, so you are not wrong necessarily, just that Haki usage isnt necessarily a requirement for that scene alone.

@M3J
I doubt its a gag... if it were a gag, others wouldn't have expressed a surprise... I mean, we don't see Sanji or Chopper express surprise when Nami punches him to swell do they?

 

[kkck]

To me it's fairly clear the implication from garp's punch was that he was using haki... Setting aside character's reaction to luffy getting hurt like that, the effect is consistent with how haki works against other fruit users. Even against the boa sisters luffy went "AGH, it hurt even though I am rubber". Pretty much in the same fashion as when garp punched him. Even the sister crushing luffy with her tail actually hurt luffy because of haki...

 

[Nie Li]

@kkck just nailed the coffin on the topic of Luffy and haki.

This is Luffy's reaction to being hit with haki (by someone who isn't even physically stronger than his past opponents like Lucci).