Discussion Haki Thread

[Brandish μ]

For all ongoing Haki discussion, please post here.

 

[M3J]

This is boring, there's no new argument or point on either side to conclusively come to a conclusion. Nothing indicates that he used haki or didn't use haki, and others reacting to it makes sense as they don't know Garp.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Introduction
There is a huge misunderstanding regarding what Ryuo is. It seems to be perceived as a different form of Armament Haki which I will disprove. The one thing about One Piece is consistency. Old information that we learn in old chapters doesn't stop functioning differently in the Newest chapters. One Piece is all about continuity and consistency.

What is Ryou

Source: Chapter 940

As Hyou states, what is called Haki in the outside world is simply known as Ryuo in Wano. The confusion seems to stem from a misunderstanding amongst readers. Before I go any further, it needs to be established how Haki was defined previous chapters.

Spoiler

Rayleigh compares Armament Haki to an invisible suit of armour. Has that changed? No.

Spoiler

As Hyou states in here... "straw hat fellow! In Wano too, there's an invisible power that stems from the body and can be infused into the blade". It's no different to what Rayleigh has said and what has been seen. Haki is invisible and it can be infused into blades. As Hyo finally states in a later chapter, he says Ryuo is simply Haki.

Spoiler

Enma tries to force out Ryuo from Zoro, it's simply Armament Haki.

Spoiler

The confusion here lies in not segmenting the conversation correctly. The panel above is blurred to properly demarcate what needs be in order to explain it.

What's happening in this panel is Luffy's punching the enemy and stopping short from actual contact... he's trying to replicate what Rayleigh did with the Haki he uses since it's the same as Rayleigh's. The only difference is Rayleigh's Haki does something different which is to inflict damage without physical contact. Hyogoro is seeing Luffy attempt this and is hearing his soliloquy. He deduces that by his actions, that he's trying to perform Haki that damages without actually physical contact.

Spoiler

Hyogoro at no point was ever trying to teach Luffy how to use Haki. What he was trying to teach him was a completely different technique. To reiterate, Luffy did say the Haki he's using is the same as Rayleigh's, so why would he need to learn Haki again?

What was Hyogoro Teaching Luffy?

As I said, the confusion lies in not compartmentalising or separating dialogue properly, thus not realising Hyogoro was actually speaking about 3 things in this panel other than Ryuo (Haki).
What are these 3 things?

1. A sword cutting things when you want it to cut, and not even cutting paper because you don't want it to.
2. MIGHTY BLADE.
3. And if he can teach Luffy it?

Where have we seen something about cutting and not cutting? This is back in chapter 194. Zoro is talking about the ability to cut steel being true, and Koshiro says yes followed by what appears to be an embarrassing display of skill. He hit paper with a sharp sword, but it didn't cut, and this is significant.
If we go back to what Hyogoro said, didn't he say even a piece of paper wouldn't break (cut) from being hit by a sword? He did.

Spoiler

How can a sharp sword fail to cut paper? Hyogoro said how... simply by willing/wishing for the Sword to behave in a certain way, it will behave according to the will of the Swordsman. As the spoiler above shows... it's showing Zoro in Chapter 195 simply dropping his Sword against a rock and it gets sliced in 2 effortlessly even though he just hit his sword against some leaves, yet they're completely intact even though the sword is sharp.
Zoro has just performed what his master and Hyogoro spoke of, he's performed the ability to invoke one's will or desire or wish into their blade.

The 2nd part, he uses the term MIGHTY BLADE. What exactly is a MIGHTY BLADE? He said he was known as one of these MIGHTY BLADES in the past (and is still one).

Spoiler

The term MIGHTY BLADE was actually first used back when Zoro fought with Mr. 1 in Alabasta. Just to provide some context, MIGHTY BLADE which can be translated as STRONG SWORD or GOKEN is a title that's given to Swordsmen of a certain rank or skill.

MIGHTY BLADE (STRONG SWORD/GOKEN) was first used back in Chapter 195 (which wasn't properly translated). This was re-translated by Ohara's Library and SANDMAN_AP (Japanese native who translates Japanese content on twitter for the non-Japanese speaking readers of One Piece).

If one looks at the above spoiler, the term GOKEN/MIGHTY BLADE is used in chapter 195, 467 and 939.

Hyogoro just said he was a MIGHTY BLADE. A MIGHTY BLADE must be a sort of person giving that one can be it. What sort of person is a MIGHTY BLADE? Zoro actually explains this in chapter 195.

Spoiler

As the 2 spoilers above show... a MIGHTY BLADE is someone that can cut anything and not cut anything at the same time. Someone who can invoke their will into their blade to not cut paper no matter how sharp it is.

Spoiler

How exactly is this done? Zoro says he's experienced this before in the past where everything around him is silent and he can hear the breathing of everything around me (Breath Of All Things aka BOAT). He says this ability to hearing the Breathing... is this the power to cut steel? in other words, the power to cut and not cut? It's after he asks this question that he cuts the rock and doesn't cut the leaves even though he's wielding a clearly sharp sword.

Spoiler

By the end of his fight with Mr.1 where he's cut steel, he begins to train by improving ability to concentrate to get into the state where it feels like he's at the gate of hades and can convey his will into his blade. The ability to tap into this power is what makes one a MIGHTY BLADE or GOKEN. Don't forget, Hyo is a MIGHTY BLADE.

This is why Box 3 is important. Hyogoro is a MIGHTY BLADE. Why would he need to teach Luffy something he can already do? Why would he need to teach him Haki? He's not teaching him Haki which is Ryuo... something he's already able to use and has been taught to use.

Hyogoro is teaching Luffy how to become a MIGHTY BLADE. Why would he be teaching Luffy Swordsmanship? He's not per se. He's teaching Luffy a principle used by Swordsmen, and that's the ability to invoke their will into their weapon (or blade).

Spoiler

How is that relevant? What does Will have to do with Haki? Luffy's learning to make his Haki flow. To be more precise, he's learning to use his Will to make his Haki move and do as he wishes or pleases... just like a Swordsman has to learn to use their will to determine if their blade will cut or not cut.

How exactly is this a powerup? Remember how Zoro was not able to cut Steel? and suddenly, he gained the strength to do so? The ability to use the MIGHTY BLADE power makes things much more powerful, and that includes Haki.

Not explicitly related, but the power to convey wills is supposedly why Zoro can perform techniques like:

• Zoro wills his Sword to become a cannon, and it behaves like a cannon.
  Spoiler

  
• Zoro wills his Swordsmanship to be accompanied with the strength of a Leopard.
  Spoiler

  
• Zoro wills his Swordsmanship to be complemented by the strength of Gorillas.
  Spoiler

  
• Zoro wills the Swordsmanship of Asura which is explicitly stated to be powered by the will.
  Spoiler

  

It's very likely the only reason Zoro was able to regain his Haki back here from Enma is because he's probably already a MIGHTY BLADE given he's been experienced with this power, otherwise he'd have lost consciousness.

Spoiler

So, really, Ryuo is simply Haki, and all Luffy was learning was to be a MIGHTY BLADE to gain the power to convey his will into Haki to make it stronger to perform advanced Haki techniques.

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

So any explanation as how Rayleigh blocked the elephant on RI without even coming in contact with it and how the Admirals blocked WB's attack at the execution stand with their arms outstretched? I think it's pretty clear that there's invisible Haki and also the hardening.

Advanced CoA. Luffy should be able to do that too, now
Hardening is just a variation of CoA usage, not the advanced technique

 

[Fox666]

There is a huge misunderstanding regarding what Ryuo is. It seems to be perceived as a different form of Armament Haki which I will disprove.

I think everyone knows that Ryuo is how CoA is called in Wano, just like Mantra is another name for CoO.

We use Ryuo for convenience, since there' no official name for emission kind or internal damaging kind...

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I think everyone knows that Ryuo is how CoA is called in Wano, just like Mantra is another name for CoO.

This is what I've been saying. I just don't think most people realise there's no difference between Haki and Ryuo. At least, the impression I'm getting is people really think Ryuo is a different form of Haki.

We use Ryuo for convenience, since there' no official name for emission kind or internal damaging kind...

Can't say that's the impression I'm getting.

I'd understand if they called it Advanced Haki or Haki Blast or Internal Haki, or something along those lines. From what I've read, people really think Ryuo and Haki are different.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

I think Ryou is an advanced form of armament. Just like futuresight from observation.
ƪ(˘⌣˘)ʃ

 

[Fox666]

I think Ryou is an advanced form of armament. Just like futuresight from observation.
ƪ(˘⌣˘)ʃ

Hyogoro said Ryuo is just what they call Haki in Wano...

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Jeah and Mantra is what the call haki in skypia. But we know its only Observation.

They both know one color, but specialize in it.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Hyogoro said Ryuo is just what they call Haki in Wano...

This is what I meant.

People think Ryuo is Advanced Haki when it's just normal Haki.

It's not recognised that Advanced Haki is just the combination of 2 techniques: Haki + MIGHTY BLADE power (BOAT).

It's like someone using Haki with Shigan or some form of Rokushiki, and calling it a new form of Haki when it's just Haki being used with another type of technique.

 

[kkck]

Jeah and Mantra is what the call haki in skypia. But we know its only Observation.

They both know one color, but specialize in it.

I think the context is a tad different though. Back in skypeia mantra was pretty much just CoO, they had no awareness or knowledge of invisible armors. In turn ryuo is pretty much just haki... in a section of the world where it is far more commonplace and swordsmen are generally familiar with it. In a place like wano where you potentially have armies of trained haki users (unlike skypeia where no one was trained in mantra) who could lean towards any type of haki having people who develop armor haki to advance levels while having no awareness whatsoever of observation haki is just weird, if not straight up nonsense. Add to that that so far in the series observation haki is the type of haki you are most likely to activate subconsiously (mantra users, coby, ussop...).

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I think the context is a tad different though. Back in skypeia mantra was pretty much just CoO, they had no awareness or knowledge of invisible armors. In turn ryuo is pretty much just haki... in a section of the world where it is far more commonplace and swordsmen are generally familiar with it. In a place like wano where you potentially have armies of trained haki users (unlike skypeia where no one was trained in mantra) who could lean towards any type of haki having people who develop armor haki to advance levels while having no awareness whatsoever of observation haki is just weird, if not straight up nonsense. Add to that that so far in the series observation haki is the type of haki you are most likely to activate subconsiously (mantra users, coby, ussop...).

It's pretty clear no one has been praised for their CoO in Wano. I doubt they are much aware of it since the focus has 100% being on CoA (Ryuo). It's all that matters in the land of Samurai.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2021, Original Post Date: Feb 10, 2021 ---

@Elessar I don't know if you're still of the assumption that Zoro learnt CoA since before the time skip - even more absurd as far back as Alabasta - when it was the only ability keeping Logias safe from most combatants.
So in essence, Zoro should've been able to damage Enel, Aokiji and Kizaru or at least being a minor threat given what we know about CoA.
@Hannibal Psyche can be pretty stubborn and unwilling to take corrections but there are a few times he gets some things right. This is sadly one.

 

[Nie Li]

It's pretty clear no one has been praised for their CoO in Wano. I doubt they are much aware of it since the focus has 100% being on CoA (Ryuo). It's all that matters in the land of Samurai.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2021, Original Post Date: Feb 10, 2021 ---

@Elessar I don't know if you're still of the assumption that Zoro learnt CoA since before the time skip - even more absurd as far back as Alabasta - when it was the only ability keeping Logias safe from most combatants.
So in essence, Zoro should've been able to damage Enel, Aokiji and Kizaru or at least being a minor threat given what we know about CoA.
@Hannibal Psyche can be pretty stubborn and unwilling to take corrections but there are a few times he gets some things right. This is sadly one.

I still am.

Having used CoA instinctively in certain extreme situations is no different from Luffy using CoO against Mihawk. They obviously had no mastery over haki and certainly weren't using it 24/7, so Zoro's encounters with logias don't change much.

 

[kkck]

It's pretty clear no one has been praised for their CoO in Wano. I doubt they are much aware of it since the focus has 100% being on CoA (Ryuo). It's all that matters in the land of Samurai.

At least several of the scabbars have been confirmed to be observation haki users (even if not directly in the series). Observation haki is the least obvious type of haki but there is no particular reason to assume its not a thing in wano.

 

[M3J]

It's pretty clear no one has been praised for their CoO in Wano. I doubt they are much aware of it since the focus has 100% being on CoA (Ryuo). It's all that matters in the land of Samurai.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2021, Original Post Date: Feb 10, 2021 ---

@Elessar I don't know if you're still of the assumption that Zoro learnt CoA since before the time skip - even more absurd as far back as Alabasta - when it was the only ability keeping Logias safe from most combatants.
So in essence, Zoro should've been able to damage Enel, Aokiji and Kizaru or at least being a minor threat given what we know about CoA.
@Hannibal Psyche can be pretty stubborn and unwilling to take corrections but there are a few times he gets some things right. This is sadly one.

I don't think it's that easy for them to know what constitutes CoO? They're probably aware but is it easy to tell? Future Sight as far as I know can be hard to tell as you could chalk it up to the user being fast until he starts predicting what the other person will say or do before they even do it. It's not as physical or obvious as CoA is.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I still am.

Having used CoA instinctively in certain extreme situations is no different from Luffy using CoO against Mihawk. They obviously had no mastery over haki and certainly weren't using it 24/7, so Zoro's encounters with logias don't change much.

Then he didn't have it just as Luffy didn't really have CoO until the time skip (he used it once and never again till his training).
What is confirmed is that Zoro was able to start using flying slashes soon after he unlocked the BOAT.

And when you say in certain extreme situations do expatiate please. Cos Zoro has never for once shown the ability to cut Logias Pre TS.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2021, Original Post Date: Feb 10, 2021 ---

At least several of the scabbars have been confirmed to be observation haki users (even if not directly in the series). Observation haki is the least obvious type of haki but there is no particular reason to assume its not a thing in wano.

You may have missed my point. I said no one has been praised for it (bar Luffy since he barely dodged Kaido's signature move) i.e singled out cos it isn't the focus here in Wano. It hasn't been made a thing (not even once).
Ryuo/CoA and swords is the theme here.

 

[Nie Li]

Then he didn't have it just as Luffy didn't really have CoO until the time skip (he used it once and never again till his training).
What is confirmed is that Zoro was able to start using flying slashes soon after he unlocked the BOAT.

I don't acknowledge BOAT as it's own separate thing, nor does the manga so far. Zoro started using flying slashes once he reached a certain level of strength, that's all there is to that for now.

Zoro and Luffy both unlocked their haki pre-TS. No one is saying Zoro was a master of it pre-TS, but he did use it in Arabasta and was later seen talking about needing to become stronger so he can learn how to use that power at will, because he himself obviously didn't know how he did it.

If you want to understand "having" haki as "being capable of using it at will", then no, Zoro didn't have it until post-TS, but he still was the first Strawhat to use it pre-TS. In Arabasta.

And when you say in certain extreme situations do expatiate please. Cos Zoro has never for once shown the ability to cut Logias Pre TS.

It appears you didn't understand my point. This logia point is a terrible, terrible argument.

The extreme situation I mentioned was obviously Zoro's fight against Mr.1, in which he showed haki. That's the fight that objectively pushed him the most pre-TS other than the whole Oars battle.

Nor Zoro nor Luffy were capable of using haki at will. Luffy couldn't choose when to predict the future or when to knock people out, and Zoro couldn't really choose when to use CoA, because they were barely taping into that power.

What logia in the series has pushed Zoro for logias to be a relevant talk? The only logia that ever took an attack from him pre-TS is Enel, and that was Zoro's opening slash, so evidently not a moment in which he was pushed even barely. Even in that fight, Zoro used kairouseki against Enel and still failed and was defeated, so what would him being able to inconsitently tap into CoA have to do with the fight?

 

[M3J]

You may have missed my point. I said no one has been praised for it (bar Luffy since he barely dodged Kaido's signature move) i.e singled out cos it isn't the focus here in Wano. It hasn't been made a thing (not even once).
Ryuo/CoA and swords is the theme here.

But what's the point of mentioning CoO when it's not going to help beat Big Mom or Kaidou other than dodging attacks?

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

But what's the point of mentioning CoO when it's not going to help beat Big Mom or Kaidou other than dodging attacks?

LOL. If an attack can't hit you, you can't be defeated. It's the very reason Oda had Luffy learned future sight when fighting Katakuri. It's the major reason Katakuri had an undefeated record against anyone pre Luffy even though he'd clashed with other Yonko crews.

 

[kkck]

You may have missed my point. I said no one has been praised for it (bar Luffy since he barely dodged Kaido's signature move) i.e singled out cos it isn't the focus here in Wano. It hasn't been made a thing (not even once).
Ryuo/CoA and swords is the theme here.

That doesn't mean it's not a thing. Your average haki user is generally able to use at least some form of armor and observation haki. In the grand scheme of things its extremely reasonable that any fighter with some worth is going to have both. Isn't ryou what people in wano call haki rather than specifically armor haki?

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

That doesn't mean it's not a thing. Your average haki user is generally able to use at least some form of armor and observation haki. In the grand scheme of things its extremely reasonable that any fighter with some worth is going to have both. Isn't ryou what people in wano call haki rather than specifically armor haki?

Seems you're one of those who still don't get it. Ryou is not Haki in wano, Ryou is CoA (not just any colour of Haki but armament Haki) and over 90% of fighters in Wano are Samurai so it's mostly applied to their swords.
I hope you get it now. I really do.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2021, Original Post Date: Feb 10, 2021 ---

If you want to understand "having" haki as "being capable of using it at will", then no, Zoro didn't have it until post-TS, but he still was the first Strawhat to use it pre-TS. In Arabasta

We have an agreement then.

On a side note: Why aren't you bearing Moegara anymore? In my own view it was the perfect variant to King Moe seeing how you both fancy the 2 characters causing the greatest split in the fandom.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2021 ---

The extreme situation I mentioned was obviously Zoro's fight against Mr.1, in which he showed haki. That's the fight that objectively pushed him the most pre-TS other than the whole Oars battle.

"Extreme situations" (plural) was what you mentioned the first time so I was curious what other examples you had beside the Arabasta arc.