Phantron

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Copying Saiki isn't enough to beat Chitose because Chitose still has higher base stats. The reason why Tezuka can't overcome Kabaji with his superior base stats was because Hyakuren renders technique irrelevent (it can return anything on its own) and obviously Kabaji does have higher power. Saiki does not favor any particular stat if both characters have it so the guy with the overall higher stat will still win, whereas Hyakuren always favors the guy with higher power if both characters have it since all other stats are negated by the double returning property.
 

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I don't think that Tezuka really was having too much of an issue with Kabaji personally...Now that we have some stats and even if you were to lower them a bit for the nationals, Kabaji has a 1 in speed. If Tezuka wanted to, he could have just aimed for corner shots like he did with Atobe back in the Tokyo prefecturals and Atobe wouldn't have been able to reach them. I think part of the head on match he had with Kabaji was to show that just copying Hyakuren doesn't mean you can use it perfectly.
 

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I don't think that Tezuka really was having too much of an issue with Kabaji personally...Now that we have some stats and even if you were to lower them a bit for the nationals, Kabaji has a 1 in speed. If Tezuka wanted to, he could have just aimed for corner shots like he did with Atobe back in the Tokyo prefecturals and Atobe wouldn't have been able to reach them.
I'm not 100% sure but I think Kabaji absorbed the Tezuka zone, so Tezuka couldn't hit to the corners.

Kabaji was also able to absorb techniques from the top 20 just by seeing them once. I think if Chitose were to use Muga he would be creating a super powerful Kabaji.

I think if Kin can't access TnK, Atobe would win. Ryoma hasn't accessed TnK since he played Yukimura. Do you think maybe Kin Chan's TnK is exclusive to Oni. That the reason he was able to access it was because his opponent played him in a head on power battle?

If so Atobe wouldn't be playing him in terms of power, he would be hitting not so powerful balls that Kin Chan just can't reach.
 

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ah right, i forgot about tezuka zone getting copied...that changes a bit...

in regards to Kintarou's TnK. I think that it depends. The whole point to accessing TnK for everyone except Tezuka is to truly love playing tennis and love the challenge no matter winning or losing. So if atobe proves enough of a challenge, i think Kintarou can activate it.
 

Phantron

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I don't think that Tezuka really was having too much of an issue with Kabaji personally...Now that we have some stats and even if you were to lower them a bit for the nationals, Kabaji has a 1 in speed. If Tezuka wanted to, he could have just aimed for corner shots like he did with Atobe back in the Tokyo prefecturals and Atobe wouldn't have been able to reach them. I think part of the head on match he had with Kabaji was to show that just copying Hyakuren doesn't mean you can use it perfectly.
It's implied Tezuka always used Tezuka Zone in conjunction with Hyakuren to overcome the fact that you're very slow while using Hyakuren, so I'd assume Kabaji also copied Tezuka Zone while he's using Hyakuren, which renders his speed irrelevent.

I guess if Kabaji was playing anyone else his lack of speed would hurt him even if he has Hyakuren, but it just happens Tezuka's moveset basically renders any stat besides power irrelevent (Zone neutralizes speed, Hyakuren neutralizes tech).

---------- Post added at 02:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 AM ----------

I'm not 100% sure but I think Kabaji absorbed the Tezuka zone, so Tezuka couldn't hit to the corners.

Kabaji was also able to absorb techniques from the top 20 just by seeing them once. I think if Chitose were to use Muga he would be creating a super powerful Kabaji.

I think if Kin can't access TnK, Atobe would win. Ryoma hasn't accessed TnK since he played Yukimura. Do you think maybe Kin Chan's TnK is exclusive to Oni. That the reason he was able to access it was because his opponent played him in a head on power battle?

If so Atobe wouldn't be playing him in terms of power, he would be hitting not so powerful balls that Kin Chan just can't reach.
Kabaji seems to have a limited memory on what he can copy. Otherwise by now he should the moves of every character he's ever met. Since Chitose is said to be a good strategist, the easiest way to deal with Kabaji is use some weak moves with Muga to trick Kabaji into copying it, and then easily score off him while he's using a useless move. Kabaji can only tie with his opponent unless it's a power shot, and that's because Kabaji is stronger than most characters to begin with, so all you'd need is a sequence that goes like:

Chitose uses a weak move (say, something from St. Rudolph) and scores a point (generally Kabaji loses a point to the move he saw the first time and then tries to get the next point back with that move)
Kabaji copies the move
Chitose easily scores the next point because Kabaji is using a weak move

At this point he's two points ahead and he can just trade points and still win that game. Now if there's a way for Kabaji to be selective about what move he copies, this won't work, but so far it seems to me Kabaji just copies any move without thinking about it, so he doesn't have the option of not copying either.
 

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Kabaji seems to have a limited memory on what he can copy. Otherwise by now he should the moves of every character he's ever met. Since Chitose is said to be a good strategist, the easiest way to deal with Kabaji is use some weak moves with Muga to trick Kabaji into copying it, and then easily score off him while he's using a useless move. Kabaji can only tie with his opponent unless it's a power shot, and that's because Kabaji is stronger than most characters to begin with, so all you'd need is a sequence that goes like:

Chitose uses a weak move (say, something from St. Rudolph) and scores a point (generally Kabaji loses a point to the move he saw the first time and then tries to get the next point back with that move)
Kabaji copies the move
Chitose easily scores the next point because Kabaji is using a weak move

At this point he's two points ahead and he can just trade points and still win that game. Now if there's a way for Kabaji to be selective about what move he copies, this won't work, but so far it seems to me Kabaji just copies any move without thinking about it, so he doesn't have the option of not copying either.[/QUOTE]



At least with Tezuka he seems to remember everything he sees in a given match (otherwise he would have forgotten the zone when using Hyaruken). Also I think it's not required that Kabaji loses a point before he learns how to copy.

I believe he copied Ban without losing a point. So if Chitose uses a weak move I think Kabaji will be able to return it. Furthermore we are forgetting about Chitose's blind side.

If Kabaji is hitting powerful shots (which he naturally hits) to Chitose's blind spot Kabaji can win (Tachibana never aimed for it except for the last shot and it was never mentioned in Tezuka's match because Tezuka doesn't need that stuff to win).

Furthermore to get past kabaji in the first place you need powerful techniques, he was good enough to be the number 13 representative.

---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------

ah right, i forgot about tezuka zone getting copied...that changes a bit...

in regards to Kintarou's TnK. I think that it depends. The whole point to accessing TnK for everyone except Tezuka is to truly love playing tennis and love the challenge no matter winning or losing. So if atobe proves enough of a challenge, i think Kintarou can activate it.
I'm not 100% that Atobe is a challenge in the same way that Oni and Yukimura were to Kin and Ryoma respectively.

Also what was the point of Tezuka accessing TnK?
 

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Furthermore to get past kabaji in the first place you need powerful techniques, he was good enough to be the number 13 representative.
He only got the badge because Date and Ban forfeited at match point. That's hardly what I'd call earning the position.
 

Phantron

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When Niou turned into Kabaji to score a crucial point in the doubles match, Atobe told him to quickly turn back to Tezuka or he'll quickly lose. So Kabaji is not exactly hard to score on. The guys he played usually aren't very good either, and Tezuka is an exception because Tezuka Zone helps Kabaji more than it helps Tezuka (in fact you can say Tezuka was dumb to use Zone at all).
 

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Chitose could just spam Tightrope Walking, a move which he used against Tachibana whilst in Muga.
Kabaji CANNOT hit back a Tightrope Walking with a Tightrope Walking lol.
Game set match in Chitose's favour.

Shitenhouji are simply better than Hyoutei through and through.
 

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Why do we assume Chitose can control what shot he uses in Muga? Am I just not knowledged enough, I thought usually it was unconscious, but he is smart idk.

Why do we assume Chitose would even play?

Kin can for whatever reason reach almost any ball in ryoma vs kin. I dont remember world of ice being tried, so maybe that would be interesting, but unlikely.
Also it looks like Tezuka can TnK at will unless Fuji/all tennis with no rules is fun to him. But that would be a now and not then.
 

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Why do we assume Chitose can control what shot he uses in Muga? Am I just not knowledged enough, I thought usually it was unconscious, but he is smart idk.

Why do we assume Chitose would even play?
.
Its unconscious to a certain extent.
If you notice, the moves that Muga brings out are always the most useful moves to the situation.
Like when Ryoma's Muga brought out what I believe is Shukuchiho against Kintaro in the one-point match.
Where Kintaro's first smash against Twist Serve and the ball flies past Ryoma.
Check the page before it, to see how he suddenly teleports to behind him.

There's also the way Ryoma spammed Fuu against Sanada.

Chitose will naturally end up spamming moves that Kabaji cannot hit back. Muga is a top move when it comes to the MSers.
 

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^I believe he just turned around his own axis in that situation, no special moves involved.
 

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Well the post said Chitose was clever and could use Mugs to beat him by first hitting weaker shots etc, but that gives him a lot of autonomy if he can control that much.
 

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^I believe he just turned around his own axis in that situation, no special moves involved.
He suddenly arrived at the baseline instantly, yet he brought out Muga?
 

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Well then why was there emphasis on Muga as if that was the reason he was able to reach the move when all he did was pivot around to get the shot?
 

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Muga also boosts your speed and power, it's not only about using random moves. He probably would've been too slow without it.
 

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He only got the badge because Date and Ban forfeited at match point. That's hardly what I'd call earning the position.
They forfeited because they knew they would have been crushed by the light because they weren't strong enough to lift it on their own. I always thought it was a symbolic way of saying that Kabaji Kawamura had more power.

Plus Niou used Kabaji's strength to overwhelm the U 17 numbers 9 and 10. He even hit the rackets out of their hands.

Also just as a thought could Kabaji copy Muga?
 
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Kaoz

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They forfeited because they knew they would have been crushed by the light because they weren't strong enough to lift it on their own. I always thought it was a symbolic way of saying that Kabaji Kawamura had more power.
I don't think it has anything to do with strength (as a matter of fact we even know that Date and Ban are stronger), but rather that Ban was too scared to move, and Kawamura and Kabaji saved him.

Plus Niou used Kabaji's strength to overwhelm the U 17 numbers 9 and 10. He even hit the rackets out of their hands.
Once. Inui also knocked away Yanagi's racket once during their match in Kanto, but afterwards Yanagi adjusted without problems. In other words, it probably wouldn't have worked a second time.

Also just as a thought could Kabaji copy Muga?
I don't see why not, given enough time. Not sure if he could actually copy anything with it though. The way Kabaji's Simple-minded Copy works is that he learns moves by seeing them once, but he also forgets them again after the match. Since Muga pulls the moves out of the user's subconscious memories, it might not work for Kabaji.
 

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You are completely right. I also think Kabaji would get destroyed by Chitose, I just wanted to try and defend him but I mostly wanted to figure out the extent of Atobe Kingdom's strength. The three moves that are most confusing to me right now are Mirror eyes, Atobe Kingdom and Wonder Castle.

I think Atobe Kingdom could break through wonder castle, but then again Marui is said to have Godlike reflexes. Could it also beat Kin Chan's wild nature?

If mirror eyes was actually that strong couldn't Fuwa beat Tohno? He could use mirror eyes after facing executions and win because Tohno can't take the pain.

If the only way to beat atobe kingdom is through dislocating your shoulder or using TnK, would it work on Tanegamishima?
 
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