Discussion Lucy's Star Dress

Axiomus

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The problem is that you're misinterpreting the line "It isn't quite the same as Erza's magic, but it does allow me to borrow a bit of my Celestial Spirit's powers". She is stating that she is borrowin their powers, in other words she could use the same magic powers their spirits use, that is she could use the same magic they use, she is not saying that she is borrowing magical power from them and adding to her own magical power, which is what you were saying.

I've never said they don't have a magical power, on the contrary, I just daid that they could not be summoned with more MP than Lucy herself is able to wield at the time, that is, Lucy's magical power is the upper limit of how much of their MP they can wield outside the Celestial World. Which is exactly what Lucy says to Natsu when she gets the Sagitarius key in chapter 46 and which sh discusses briefly with Loki in chapter 72.

It is a contradiction because you stated that when she uses star dress her magical power doubles, which is a contradiction with the fact that her eternano container at any given time is fixed, unless she spends some time training to expand it, it would not grow bigger just because she is using star dress. At best by using her spirits' magic she wields new set of magical techniques that makes her more effective in combat, that is more powerful, but it do not boost her magical powers per se.

We don't really know what kind of magic Arlok used to summon Ikusa-Tsunagi, we don't really know it works on the same principles that Lucy's celestial spirit magic, so it isn't related unless stated otherwise, but even if we assume that the powers works on the same principle, the fact that the war god was summoned by a weakling limited the amount of power it could wield in earthland, is the fact that Natsu, who is not the strongest guy around and isn't a god slayer, could defeat it with a single blow without fighting seriously and without even using his full power. It seems to me that the Aquarius Star Dress the CSK granted for Lucy during their fight didn't operate on the same rules as the other Star Dress shown thus far. First she was nearly without MP at the time and when she got it, suddenly it seems that her MP was replenished, also we know Loki is stronger than Aquarius (he is the strongest of the golden keys), yet the Aquarius Star Dress was way more powerful than the Leo one, all of this points that the Spirit King did more than just give her the normal Aquarius star dress, it seems that he gave her the celestial spirit magic equivalent of Wendy or Natsu eating concentrated eternano particles, that's why I said that it is an exception, not the rule.
Loke also said that Lucy's regulus Lucy kick contained some of his light magic. Lucy's magical power replenished from near exhaustion to fighting condition because she received Aquarius' magical power. That's not really out of the ordinary. It's debatable who is stronger between Loke and Aquarius. Lucy herself said that Aquarius was her strongest spirit when she summoned her. Aquarius also handled Jackal a lot better than Loke and Aries did tbh. Really, I don't see why Aquarius' star dress must be considered the exception.

I didn't say that Lucy doubles her magical power when she uses star dress. If anything, I'm saying the opposite. Not many of Lucy's spirits are as powerful as Lucy individually, so not many star dresses can double Lucy's power. I did say that some star dresses has potential to double her magical power. For example, a CSK star-dress should rightfully double Lucy's powers otherwise it would be extremely underwhelming. The magical power isn't coming from nowhere either. It's coming from the spirits themselves. The more power she takes from the spirits, the less the spirits themselves will have for themselves. Do I believe Lucy is doubling her magical power when she uses Aries star dress and has Aries summoned? No. The total amount of power between the two is still equal to Aries + Lucy, it's just that now they can share the MP more effectively.

The war god was summoned by Arlock with summoning magic. Specifically, the Yakuma 18 battle gods magic. For the sake of simplicity, I see no reason to assume it works vastly different from Celestial Spirit Magic. Also, War God is not weak. The attack that took him out was the same attack that took out a Spriggan 12. At the very least, War God would have been stronger than Bluenote, who is probably comparable to a WS like Jura. Secondly, the more important part is that War God is obviously stronger than Arlock himself. Arlock himself was defeated by a single blow by Natsu before he summoned war god. War God survived an attack of the same magnitude, and forced Natsu to use FDK spells. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to assume that a summoner can summon something stronger than herself. I consider both Loke and Aquarius to be stronger than Lucy individually. Star Dress changes that dynamic now though.
 
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Gabo

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To me I really liked the Star Dress handling Lucy , though I wish they would have shown the capabilities dress Aries.

I look forward to seeing the Capricorn , I feel that will be attractive

Like it would be great that she could use the power of the Celestial Spirit King
 

nichendrix

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oke also said that Lucy's regulus Lucy kick contained some of his light magic.
You're always confusing allowing her to use their magic with giving her more magical power than she would ordinarily have. Star Dress allowing Lucy to use her spirit's magic is the same as Hibiki downloading Uranometria in her head or Romeo learning how to use Fire Magic, or on a more extreme example the would be something like Rufus' Memory Make or Hibiki's Archive allowing them to use pretty much any magic they have in their memory/database. When she star dresses a spirit she can use the same kind of magic they have. It is just that, it is not that she receives more magical power than she already has just because she is star dressing, rather it is that it allows her to use other kinds of magic other than her regular Celestial Spirit Magic.

Lucy's magical power replenished from near exhaustion to fighting condition because she received Aquarius' magical power. That's not really out of the ordinary. [...] I don't see why Aquarius' star dress must be considered the exception.
We know that it is possible to use certain kinds of magic to replenish someone's eternano container, we have seen that Wendy and Shelia have this kind of ability, as well as all dragon slayers and god slayers could do it by eating the element of their magic. Even so it is not a power that anyone has access and it seems that it isn't very common at all, even though it doesn't seem to be very rare too.

So even though the act of replenishing someone's MP isn't that much out of ordinary, but the situation in which it happened to Lucy actually is not because she was receiving MP from anyone else, but because she was receiving MP from something that actually needed her to give her MP in order to function in the world she is in. To make an analogy, what you are proposing it is like a car that uses gasoline, but could give some of the gasoline it uses back to the fuel tank.

Another reason why when she used Aquarius Star Dress should be viwed as the exception rather than the rule, is the amount of power it was shown that Lucy could wield during that fight compared to later uses. While using Aquarius she was shown to use Aquarius powers almost at the same level as Aquarius, while the other times she used star dress it was always shown as a useful but weaker version of the power her spirits could use. So it clearly was a more powerful version of the Star Dress.

The fact that both the replenishing and the increased power level only happened once when the CSK had given her Aquarius power when she doesn't had enough MP even to continue using magic, means that it isn't a situation that should happen very often.

Actually we have evidence that they could not normally do such things because more than once Lucy was out of MP and Virgo and Loke had to use their own power to come back and save her and after that they could not donate a single drop of their own MP back to her in order to allow her to fight, they always ended up taking her out of the fight and asking her to stay there and recover.

So my point is not that she could not receive MP from her spirits at all, but that it doesn't seem to be something they could do often because she already have been in similar situations and they couldn't do it, they always saved her, put her somewhere safe and ask her to recover instead of just replenishing her MP. My hypothesis is that they simply couldn't do it because they need that she could use her MP in order to stay out of the Celestial Spirit World.

It's debatable who is stronger between Loke and Aquarius. Lucy herself said that Aquarius was her strongest spirit when she summoned her. Aquarius also handled Jackal a lot better than Loke and Aries did tbh.
Leo is the leader of the 12+1 Zodiacal Spirits and second in command only to the Spirit King, Lucy stated before that Leo and Aquarius were the most her powerful spirits, but never ranked them, and them we have a statement she said on a desperate moment after her other spirits were defeated. In the end, until something more substantial is clearly stated that Aquarius is stronger than Leo, the evidence are leaning more on Leo's side than on Aquarius side.

I didn't say that Lucy doubles her magical power when she uses star dress. If anything, I'm saying the opposite. Not many of Lucy's spirits are as powerful as Lucy individually, so not many star dresses can double Lucy's power. I did say that some star dresses has potential to double her magical power.
You do think that this is a contradiction, you know you say you didn't say it doubles her power, that it is the oposite, them of state that it has the potential to double her power. It either increases/double her power (de facto or potentially) or it isn't, there isn't much middle ground in the kind of statement you're making.

For example, a CSK star-dress should rightfully double Lucy's powers otherwise it would be extremely underwhelming. The magical power isn't coming from nowhere either. It's coming from the spirits themselves. The more power she takes from the spirits, the less the spirits themselves will have for themselves. Do I believe Lucy is doubling her magical power when she uses Aries star dress and has Aries summoned? No. The total amount of power between the two is still equal to Aries + Lucy, it's just that now they can share the MP more effectively.
Here again is a case where you confuses magic's power with magical power.

Magical Power is the amount of eternano particles Lucy has at her disposal and of course if she has more eternano she could use higher level spells, it also allows her to use these spells more often.

Magic's power is the power is the power of a given spell how destructive or how strong it is. The two concepts may work together, but they also couldn't. For instance, when Lucy uses Uranometria she is clearly using one the most powerful spells ever created, it doesn't matter how much MP she has Uranometria wouldn't be more powerful because of that, but she certainly would have enough power to cast it by herself, without Gemini's help and she would also be able to use it more than once.

A easier way to understand it is comparing it with Erza's magic. Erza could summon Fairy Armor, Nakagami Armor and Adamantine Armor, all of these armor allow her to perform very powerful "spells", but the amount of magical power she possesses continues the same, it didn't change, the stronger armor actually consumes more of her MP and she have to use them just for a limited amount of time.

In Lucy's case, if she get a stronger spirit's Star Dress, like Leo, Aquarius and even the CSK (if it is even possible), she would be able to perform magics that are more destructive, but the amount of MP she would have would be the same, so whenever she uses these more powerful magics with Star Dress, will means that she will have to use them for a shorter amount of time.

The war god was summoned by Arlock with summoning magic. Specifically, the Yakuma 18 battle gods magic. For the sake of simplicity, I see no reason to assume it works vastly different from Celestial Spirit Magic. Also, War God is not weak. The attack that took him out was the same attack that took out a Spriggan 12. At the very least, War God would have been stronger than Bluenote, who is probably comparable to a WS like Jura. Secondly, the more important part is that War God is obviously stronger than Arlock himself. Arlock himself was defeated by a single blow by Natsu before he summoned war god. War God survived an attack of the same magnitude, and forced Natsu to use FDK spells. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to assume that a summoner can summon something stronger than herself. I consider both Loke and Aquarius to be stronger than Lucy individually. Star Dress changes that dynamic now though.
Again, you're confusing MP with the destructive power of a certain magic/summon.

I said that Arlock have low MP, so anything summoned by him that have more power than him could not be summoned with its full power. The destructive power of its magic could be high as hell but it could not use it's more destructive powers.

Again let's use an analogy, if his maximum power is Fire Dragon King Mode and he was summoned by someone weak, like Romeo, he would be able to perform just the normal fire dragon magic (which is already very powerful), but if he was summoned by someone stronger, with second origin, like Lucy, he would be able to use lightning fire dragon mode, but if he was summoned by someone like Erza, he would come with access to Fire Dragon King mode.

Since it is implied that the MP of the summoner limits the amount of power the summon could wield, a weak summoner could not summon something far stronger than him with its full power, just a limited version of it.
 

Axiomus

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You're always confusing allowing her to use their magic with giving her more magical power than she would ordinarily have. Star Dress allowing Lucy to use her spirit's magic is the same as Hibiki downloading Uranometria in her head or Romeo learning how to use Fire Magic, or on a more extreme example the would be something like Rufus' Memory Make or Hibiki's Archive allowing them to use pretty much any magic they have in their memory/database. When she star dresses a spirit she can use the same kind of magic they have. It is just that, it is not that she receives more magical power than she already has just because she is star dressing, rather it is that it allows her to use other kinds of magic other than her regular Celestial Spirit Magic.



We know that it is possible to use certain kinds of magic to replenish someone's eternano container, we have seen that Wendy and Shelia have this kind of ability, as well as all dragon slayers and god slayers could do it by eating the element of their magic. Even so it is not a power that anyone has access and it seems that it isn't very common at all, even though it doesn't seem to be very rare too.

So even though the act of replenishing someone's MP isn't that much out of ordinary, but the situation in which it happened to Lucy actually is not because she was receiving MP from anyone else, but because she was receiving MP from something that actually needed her to give her MP in order to function in the world she is in. To make an analogy, what you are proposing it is like a car that uses gasoline, but could give some of the gasoline it uses back to the fuel tank.

Another reason why when she used Aquarius Star Dress should be viwed as the exception rather than the rule, is the amount of power it was shown that Lucy could wield during that fight compared to later uses. While using Aquarius she was shown to use Aquarius powers almost at the same level as Aquarius, while the other times she used star dress it was always shown as a useful but weaker version of the power her spirits could use. So it clearly was a more powerful version of the Star Dress.

The fact that both the replenishing and the increased power level only happened once when the CSK had given her Aquarius power when she doesn't had enough MP even to continue using magic, means that it isn't a situation that should happen very often.

Actually we have evidence that they could not normally do such things because more than once Lucy was out of MP and Virgo and Loke had to use their own power to come back and save her and after that they could not donate a single drop of their own MP back to her in order to allow her to fight, they always ended up taking her out of the fight and asking her to stay there and recover.

So my point is not that she could not receive MP from her spirits at all, but that it doesn't seem to be something they could do often because she already have been in similar situations and they couldn't do it, they always saved her, put her somewhere safe and ask her to recover instead of just replenishing her MP. My hypothesis is that they simply couldn't do it because they need that she could use her MP in order to stay out of the Celestial Spirit World.



Leo is the leader of the 12+1 Zodiacal Spirits and second in command only to the Spirit King, Lucy stated before that Leo and Aquarius were the most her powerful spirits, but never ranked them, and them we have a statement she said on a desperate moment after her other spirits were defeated. In the end, until something more substantial is clearly stated that Aquarius is stronger than Leo, the evidence are leaning more on Leo's side than on Aquarius side.



You do think that this is a contradiction, you know you say you didn't say it doubles her power, that it is the oposite, them of state that it has the potential to double her power. It either increases/double her power (de facto or potentially) or it isn't, there isn't much middle ground in the kind of statement you're making.



Here again is a case where you confuses magic's power with magical power.

Magical Power is the amount of eternano particles Lucy has at her disposal and of course if she has more eternano she could use higher level spells, it also allows her to use these spells more often.

Magic's power is the power is the power of a given spell how destructive or how strong it is. The two concepts may work together, but they also couldn't. For instance, when Lucy uses Uranometria she is clearly using one the most powerful spells ever created, it doesn't matter how much MP she has Uranometria wouldn't be more powerful because of that, but she certainly would have enough power to cast it by herself, without Gemini's help and she would also be able to use it more than once.

A easier way to understand it is comparing it with Erza's magic. Erza could summon Fairy Armor, Nakagami Armor and Adamantine Armor, all of these armor allow her to perform very powerful "spells", but the amount of magical power she possesses continues the same, it didn't change, the stronger armor actually consumes more of her MP and she have to use them just for a limited amount of time.

In Lucy's case, if she get a stronger spirit's Star Dress, like Leo, Aquarius and even the CSK (if it is even possible), she would be able to perform magics that are more destructive, but the amount of MP she would have would be the same, so whenever she uses these more powerful magics with Star Dress, will means that she will have to use them for a shorter amount of time.



Again, you're confusing MP with the destructive power of a certain magic/summon.

I said that Arlock have low MP, so anything summoned by him that have more power than him could not be summoned with its full power. The destructive power of its magic could be high as hell but it could not use it's more destructive powers.

Again let's use an analogy, if his maximum power is Fire Dragon King Mode and he was summoned by someone weak, like Romeo, he would be able to perform just the normal fire dragon magic (which is already very powerful), but if he was summoned by someone stronger, with second origin, like Lucy, he would be able to use lightning fire dragon mode, but if he was summoned by someone like Erza, he would come with access to Fire Dragon King mode.

Since it is implied that the MP of the summoner limits the amount of power the summon could wield, a weak summoner could not summon something far stronger than him with its full power, just a limited version of it.
When Natsu says he has Igneel's power, do we assume he only has Igneel's ability? No. The intuitive interpretation was that he was given Igneel's magical power. Why is it any different with Lucy saying she is borrowing her spirit's power? Loke said the kick contained some of his light magic. Lucy said that she is borrowing his power. Lucy is borrowing power from Loke, and that power is Loke's light magic. I don't see why we can't just interpret that statement as Lucy borrowing Loke's magical power. It's the most intuitive interpretation, and it fits with what we saw before with Aquarius' star dress.

There is nothing out of the ordinary about Lucy's magical power being replenished if she's being given Aquarius' magical power. That's exactly what you would expect to happen. Leo and Virgo saved Lucy before she learned how to use star dresses. Of course you wouldn't expect Virgo or Leo to give Lucy magical power without a respective star dress. Star Dress is what gives Lucy the ability to borrow her spirit's power. That's the whole point. Hibiki downloading Urano Metria or Romeo learning fire magic aren't similar to star dress. Lucy didn't say she downloads the information of how to use her spirits spells in her head, nor learn it from a mentor. She says she borrows her spirit's power. You know what's similar to star dress? Another star dress.

Where's the contradiction? I'm saying Lucy gains the power of her Celestial Spirits. If that spirit has power equal to Lucy's own magical power, then Lucy would effectively doubled her power. If they don't, then she wouldn't. With Aquarius, Lucy could afford to take all of Aquarius' power because she didn't have Aquarius summoned. When Lucy summons a spirit and equips a star dress, she needs to be careful not to drain her spirit of all its power.

It seems pretty obvious that some spirits have more magical power than others. That's why some of the spirits can summon themselves, and keep themselves summoned. CSk specifically can still cast Galaxia Blade after Lucy exhausted her magical power. A good indicator of magical power is destructive feats. It's not the sole indicator, but it's a pretty good one.
 
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Star Frost

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You're always confusing allowing her to use their magic with giving her more magical power than she would ordinarily have. Star Dress allowing Lucy to use her spirit's magic is the same as Hibiki downloading Uranometria in her head or Romeo learning how to use Fire Magic, or on a more extreme example the would be something like Rufus' Memory Make or Hibiki's Archive allowing them to use pretty much any magic they have in their memory/database. When she star dresses a spirit she can use the same kind of magic they have. It is just that, it is not that she receives more magical power than she already has just because she is star dressing, rather it is that it allows her to use other kinds of magic other than her regular Celestial Spirit Magic.



We know that it is possible to use certain kinds of magic to replenish someone's eternano container, we have seen that Wendy and Shelia have this kind of ability, as well as all dragon slayers and god slayers could do it by eating the element of their magic. Even so it is not a power that anyone has access and it seems that it isn't very common at all, even though it doesn't seem to be very rare too.

So even though the act of replenishing someone's MP isn't that much out of ordinary, but the situation in which it happened to Lucy actually is not because she was receiving MP from anyone else, but because she was receiving MP from something that actually needed her to give her MP in order to function in the world she is in. To make an analogy, what you are proposing it is like a car that uses gasoline, but could give some of the gasoline it uses back to the fuel tank.

Another reason why when she used Aquarius Star Dress should be viwed as the exception rather than the rule, is the amount of power it was shown that Lucy could wield during that fight compared to later uses. While using Aquarius she was shown to use Aquarius powers almost at the same level as Aquarius, while the other times she used star dress it was always shown as a useful but weaker version of the power her spirits could use. So it clearly was a more powerful version of the Star Dress.

The fact that both the replenishing and the increased power level only happened once when the CSK had given her Aquarius power when she doesn't had enough MP even to continue using magic, means that it isn't a situation that should happen very often.

Actually we have evidence that they could not normally do such things because more than once Lucy was out of MP and Virgo and Loke had to use their own power to come back and save her and after that they could not donate a single drop of their own MP back to her in order to allow her to fight, they always ended up taking her out of the fight and asking her to stay there and recover.

So my point is not that she could not receive MP from her spirits at all, but that it doesn't seem to be something they could do often because she already have been in similar situations and they couldn't do it, they always saved her, put her somewhere safe and ask her to recover instead of just replenishing her MP. My hypothesis is that they simply couldn't do it because they need that she could use her MP in order to stay out of the Celestial Spirit World.



Leo is the leader of the 12+1 Zodiacal Spirits and second in command only to the Spirit King, Lucy stated before that Leo and Aquarius were the most her powerful spirits, but never ranked them, and them we have a statement she said on a desperate moment after her other spirits were defeated. In the end, until something more substantial is clearly stated that Aquarius is stronger than Leo, the evidence are leaning more on Leo's side than on Aquarius side.



You do think that this is a contradiction, you know you say you didn't say it doubles her power, that it is the oposite, them of state that it has the potential to double her power. It either increases/double her power (de facto or potentially) or it isn't, there isn't much middle ground in the kind of statement you're making.



Here again is a case where you confuses magic's power with magical power.

Magical Power is the amount of eternano particles Lucy has at her disposal and of course if she has more eternano she could use higher level spells, it also allows her to use these spells more often.

Magic's power is the power is the power of a given spell how destructive or how strong it is. The two concepts may work together, but they also couldn't. For instance, when Lucy uses Uranometria she is clearly using one the most powerful spells ever created, it doesn't matter how much MP she has Uranometria wouldn't be more powerful because of that, but she certainly would have enough power to cast it by herself, without Gemini's help and she would also be able to use it more than once.

A easier way to understand it is comparing it with Erza's magic. Erza could summon Fairy Armor, Nakagami Armor and Adamantine Armor, all of these armor allow her to perform very powerful "spells", but the amount of magical power she possesses continues the same, it didn't change, the stronger armor actually consumes more of her MP and she have to use them just for a limited amount of time.

In Lucy's case, if she get a stronger spirit's Star Dress, like Leo, Aquarius and even the CSK (if it is even possible), she would be able to perform magics that are more destructive, but the amount of MP she would have would be the same, so whenever she uses these more powerful magics with Star Dress, will means that she will have to use them for a shorter amount of time.



Again, you're confusing MP with the destructive power of a certain magic/summon.

I said that Arlock have low MP, so anything summoned by him that have more power than him could not be summoned with its full power. The destructive power of its magic could be high as hell but it could not use it's more destructive powers.

Again let's use an analogy, if his maximum power is Fire Dragon King Mode and he was summoned by someone weak, like Romeo, he would be able to perform just the normal fire dragon magic (which is already very powerful), but if he was summoned by someone stronger, with second origin, like Lucy, he would be able to use lightning fire dragon mode, but if he was summoned by someone like Erza, he would come with access to Fire Dragon King mode.

Since it is implied that the MP of the summoner limits the amount of power the summon could wield, a weak summoner could not summon something far stronger than him with its full power, just a limited version of it.
Actually dude, Star Dress does indeed increase Lucy's magic power, Virgo did said so thanks to the power of her spirits she's borrowing and it does help her perform stronger feats than some of them have never done before like Sagittarius and Taurus
 

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Actually dude, Star Dress does indeed increase Lucy's magic power, Virgo did said so thanks to the power of her spirits she's borrowing and it does help her perform stronger feats than some of them have never done before like Sagittarius and Taurus
Yeah I agree with this. Base Lucy's MP must've increased to some extent during this year, but her major boost is the ability to "take over" her spirits. She combines her raw MP with part of the spirit's MP. She hasn't shown many feats in many star dresses: in Sagittarius she seemed to have his accuracy + more offensive power than him; in Taurus form she seemed to be a beast against avatar and she was fast enough to surprise an expert hand to hand combatant and exchange some fists (Jacob).

We haven't seen the extent of the other stardresses though. For example, Taurus' seems stronger to me than Leo's, but who knows. Aries' powers haven't been shown, and as for Gemini's, my guess is they allow you to copy someone of stronger power than if you weren't using the stardress (i.e., she wouldn't have been able to copy Marin hadn't she used it. A wild guess)
 

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Yeah I agree with this. Base Lucy's MP must've increased to some extent during this year, but her major boost is the ability to "take over" her spirits. She combines her raw MP with part of the spirit's MP. She hasn't shown many feats in many star dresses: in Sagittarius she seemed to have his accuracy + more offensive power than him; in Taurus form she seemed to be a beast against avatar and she was fast enough to surprise an expert hand to hand combatant and exchange some fists (Jacob).

We haven't seen the extent of the other stardresses though. For example, Taurus' seems stronger to me than Leo's, but who knows. Aries' powers haven't been shown, and as for Gemini's, my guess is they allow you to copy someone of stronger power than if you weren't using the stardress (i.e., she wouldn't have been able to copy Marin hadn't she used it. A wild guess)
That's what it is. And like you said, she merely shown the basics of her star dresses instead of the full extent to them which I doubt we will ever see.:( (I just hope she shows Aries form.) And I do think that the Leo one is stronger than Taurus considering Loke is stronger than Taurus, its just that once again like you said she never shown the extent to that one compared to her Taurus form.
 

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With star dress how high does lucy rank in the guild now?
 

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With star dress how high does lucy rank in the guild now?
As for girls i think now Lucy is on top 3 strongest girls but she doesnt show her true power yet.
1. Erza
2. Mira
3. Lucy
the rest.
 

Char

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With star dress how high does lucy rank in the guild now?
It is very very hard to say as she hasn't shown much yet... of course, she took Jacob by surprise, but harming a spriggan is no light feat. She's proven to be as strong as f*ck when in Taurus stardress, and she has now assimilated Marin's magic (who, by the way, combining his magic + his martial arts, managed to render Erza's magic unusable and transport her and Lucy to another dimension (from which they could seemingly not come out at will). Being a spatial magic specialist he could easily dodge most of Natsu's attacks and even hit him and Gray which is no light feat either...

So, considering she's assimilated Marin's magic (which directly means her MP is equal or above his), she's become rather skilled at martial arts (Taurus or Loke's dress) and she's been training for a while... you guess.

Pretty much what @Asorx said. I'm certain she's over the likes of Levy/Bisca, and it'd be interesting to see if she surpassed Juvia.
 

kkck

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It is very very hard to say as she hasn't shown much yet... of course, she took Jacob by surprise, but harming a spriggan is no light feat. She's proven to be as strong as f*ck when in Taurus stardress, and she has now assimilated Marin's magic (who, by the way, combining his magic + his martial arts, managed to render Erza's magic unusable and transport her and Lucy to another dimension (from which they could seemingly not come out at will). Being a spatial magic specialist he could easily dodge most of Natsu's attacks and even hit him and Gray which is no light feat either...

So, considering she's assimilated Marin's magic (which directly means her MP is equal or above his), she's become rather skilled at martial arts (Taurus or Loke's dress) and she's been training for a while... you guess.

Pretty much what @Asorx said. I'm certain she's over the likes of Levy/Bisca, and it'd be interesting to see if she surpassed Juvia.
I'd say she ranks pretty high nowadays. I'd say she surpassed freed back during the GMGs thanks to her trusty second origin. We saw fried and co get owned by tempesta while in turn lucy held back 3 tartaros demons with 3 spirits. During the makarov rescue she was able to hold back ajir just as much as grey with her ice devil powers. Realistically speaking if we consider lucy's performance during the tartarus events she went as far as easily outclassing freaking mira. Jubia IMO has lagged a bit considering that since the GMGs she has been portrayed as an equal to wendy through her interactions with shelia. I guess the question would be whether jubia was using her true power or not in those circumstances considering in the past at least she only showed her true power when her emotions were boiling. Jubia might be past that considering how she performed against keith though.
 

Char

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I'd say she ranks pretty high nowadays. I'd say she surpassed freed back during the GMGs thanks to her trusty second origin. We saw fried and co get owned by tempesta while in turn lucy held back 3 tartaros demons with 3 spirits. During the makarov rescue she was able to hold back ajir just as much as grey with her ice devil powers. Realistically speaking if we consider lucy's performance during the tartarus events she went as far as easily outclassing freaking mira. Jubia IMO has lagged a bit considering that since the GMGs she has been portrayed as an equal to wendy through her interactions with shelia. I guess the question would be whether jubia was using her true power or not in those circumstances considering in the past at least she only showed her true power when her emotions were boiling. Jubia might be past that considering how she performed against keith though.
I wouldn't use the second origin to defend the progression of some of them over others. For example, Gajeel didn't unlock the second origin but was training on his own, and was portrayed to be close to Natsu back in the GMG. Similarly, Mira trained on her own and was portrayed to be on Erza's level although the latter had awoken her second origin.

Saying Lucy surpassed Freed is maybe going a bit too far. Freed is extremely underrated but he is very capable. As for the Ajeel feat, yeah, it's to be taken into account, although all she managed to do was keep the sand monsters at bay.

Now, implying Lucy > Mira back in Tartaros is definetely taking it too far. If we do not take CSK into account, the only thing on Mira's level that Lucy has to offer is Urano Metria, which can definetely defeat a base weak tartaros demon, but requires a massive amount of MP to carry out... And Lucy would definetely have not been able to fight Shaila. Besides, Mira is underrated because in Tartaros she didn't do "much" as in fighting and beating a demon. But tactic wise, she managed to destroy the lab that made Tartaros "indestructible" by making the demons immortal so, yeah, Mira is on a whole other level.

I agree that Juvia has lagged a bit as she was slightly below Gray at PL arc and now she should be a few leagues below; but she's still very powerful. Back in the GMG she was clearly superior to Wendy and Chelia, it was even stated by official numbers. After all, Juvia is closer to her prime state than Wendy is, age wise. Prime Wendy may be capable of more than Prime Juvia, but Juvia is closer to her prime and that's a fact.

And yes, the thing is that we have two extremely different Juvias, the one we're used to and bloodlusted, who happens to be a beast, but she rarely appears XD

So, although I consider Lucy above most of the girls except for Erza and Mira, it's not clear for me whether Cana can use "unlimited" Fairy Glitter (not if she can use it continuously and repeatedly, I mean if it's a spell of hers now). If so, Cana is probably above Juvia and Lucy now.

Neither Lucy nor Juvia or Cana are probably going to fight a Spriggan or a powerful foe so... too bad!
 

kkck

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I wouldn't use the second origin to defend the progression of some of them over others. For example, Gajeel didn't unlock the second origin but was training on his own, and was portrayed to be close to Natsu back in the GMG. Similarly, Mira trained on her own and was portrayed to be on Erza's level although the latter had awoken her second origin.

Saying Lucy surpassed Freed is maybe going a bit too far. Freed is extremely underrated but he is very capable. As for the Ajeel feat, yeah, it's to be taken into account, although all she managed to do was keep the sand monsters at bay.

Now, implying Lucy > Mira back in Tartaros is definetely taking it too far. If we do not take CSK into account, the only thing on Mira's level that Lucy has to offer is Urano Metria, which can definetely defeat a base weak tartaros demon, but requires a massive amount of MP to carry out... And Lucy would definetely have not been able to fight Shaila. Besides, Mira is underrated because in Tartaros she didn't do "much" as in fighting and beating a demon. But tactic wise, she managed to destroy the lab that made Tartaros "indestructible" by making the demons immortal so, yeah, Mira is on a whole other level.

I agree that Juvia has lagged a bit as she was slightly below Gray at PL arc and now she should be a few leagues below; but she's still very powerful. Back in the GMG she was clearly superior to Wendy and Chelia, it was even stated by official numbers. After all, Juvia is closer to her prime state than Wendy is, age wise. Prime Wendy may be capable of more than Prime Juvia, but Juvia is closer to her prime and that's a fact.

And yes, the thing is that we have two extremely different Juvias, the one we're used to and bloodlusted, who happens to be a beast, but she rarely appears XD

So, although I consider Lucy above most of the girls except for Erza and Mira, it's not clear for me whether Cana can use "unlimited" Fairy Glitter (not if she can use it continuously and repeatedly, I mean if it's a spell of hers now). If so, Cana is probably above Juvia and Lucy now.

Neither Lucy nor Juvia or Cana are probably going to fight a Spriggan or a powerful foe so... too bad!
Well, gajeel is the only case which was really portrayed as having about as much as the guys using second origin considering he fought more or less evenly with base natsu as far as we saw.

As far mira.... She fought sayla and we know exactly how strong she is:
Sayla
Durability: 1600
Attack: 1200 (2400 after macro powerup)
Defense: 1000
Speed: 800
Intel: 1800
Curse Power: 2000

And compare her to kyoka:
Kyouka
Durability: 2600
Attack: 2700
Defense: 2500
Speed: 3000
Intel: 2900
Curse Power: 2700

With that alone we know kyoka is more than a decent bit stronger than sayla after hacking herself. Mira at this stage in the manga is already about worthless fodder to an erza going at it seriously. Mira was not able to stand up to macro sayla and ultimately relied on elfman to sucker punch her. And torafusa and tempester had higher numbers than sayla as well....

And now the 3 guys lucy fought:

Jackal
Durability: 1300
Attack: 1500
Defense: 800
Speed: 1800
Intel: 300
Curse Power: 600

Lahmy
Durability: 600
Attack: 200
Defense: 100
Speed: 300
Intel: 600
Curse Power: 200

Torafusa
Durability: 2500
Attack: 1800
Defense: 2000 (6000 in "hardened" form)
Speed: 700
Intel: 1200
Curse Power: 1000

Jackal is more or less comparable to sayla, at worst somewhat inferior. Torafusa in his base form would appear to be well stronger than sayla. And lahmy is not really strong but she at least makes a bat situation worst. Everything considered, lucy holding those 3 back is well more of a feat than what mira did against sayla (which was limited to getting her ass handed to her once she used her transformation).

And to add insult to injury:
Ezel
Durability: 1800
Attack: 1900
Defense: 2000
Speed: 800
Intel: 200
Curse Power: 600

ezel also seems at least somewhat superior to sayla. Basically even dragon force wendy from back then had mira beat.

Mira as a rival to erza is simply not a thing. A year ago she was essentially worthless and simply failed to match up to any of the main characters or even some of the secondary characters. Her powerup over the last year must have been even more insane than what erza, natsu, grey and lucy went through in order for her to have some sort of role to play in the future. Or be worth more than dragon force wendy.... Now, it's not impossible that she went through such a power boost but it just doesn't seem likely considering how much she under performed during the tartarus arc.
 

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Well, gajeel is the only case which was really portrayed as having about as much as the guys using second origin considering he fought more or less evenly with base natsu as far as we saw.

As far mira.... She fought sayla and we know exactly how strong she is:
Sayla
Durability: 1600
Attack: 1200 (2400 after macro powerup)
Defense: 1000
Speed: 800
Intel: 1800
Curse Power: 2000

And compare her to kyoka:
Kyouka
Durability: 2600
Attack: 2700
Defense: 2500
Speed: 3000
Intel: 2900
Curse Power: 2700

With that alone we know kyoka is more than a decent bit stronger than sayla after hacking herself. Mira at this stage in the manga is already about worthless fodder to an erza going at it seriously. Mira was not able to stand up to macro sayla and ultimately relied on elfman to sucker punch her. And torafusa and tempester had higher numbers than sayla as well....

And now the 3 guys lucy fought:

Jackal
Durability: 1300
Attack: 1500
Defense: 800
Speed: 1800
Intel: 300
Curse Power: 600

Lahmy
Durability: 600
Attack: 200
Defense: 100
Speed: 300
Intel: 600
Curse Power: 200

Torafusa
Durability: 2500
Attack: 1800
Defense: 2000 (6000 in "hardened" form)
Speed: 700
Intel: 1200
Curse Power: 1000

Jackal is more or less comparable to sayla, at worst somewhat inferior. Torafusa in his base form would appear to be well stronger than sayla. And lahmy is not really strong but she at least makes a bat situation worst. Everything considered, lucy holding those 3 back is well more of a feat than what mira did against sayla (which was limited to getting her ass handed to her once she used her transformation).

And to add insult to injury:
Ezel
Durability: 1800
Attack: 1900
Defense: 2000
Speed: 800
Intel: 200
Curse Power: 600

ezel also seems at least somewhat superior to sayla. Basically even dragon force wendy from back then had mira beat.

Mira as a rival to erza is simply not a thing. A year ago she was essentially worthless and simply failed to match up to any of the main characters or even some of the secondary characters. Her powerup over the last year must have been even more insane than what erza, natsu, grey and lucy went through in order for her to have some sort of role to play in the future. Or be worth more than dragon force wendy.... Now, it's not impossible that she went through such a power boost but it just doesn't seem likely considering how much she under performed during the tartarus arc.
Are those the correct 9dg stats? I saw these stats in another thread and sayla's transformed stats were second only to Mard.
 

Star Frost

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Are those the correct 9dg stats? I saw these stats in another thread and sayla's transformed stats were second only to Mard.
I'm not so sure if its ok to use those as their stats when they're really a card game that the stats tends to change a lot based on how to use them >_>
 

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Thsee are the translated stats that another user posted.

It was translated to be her Limit Release form which gives her a 4000 boost in all her stats. Silver gets a 2000 boost when he puts his feelings into it and Kyouka gets a 2500 boost when she use her Strengthen. Franmelth was also translated to get a 2000 boost when he uses his Revolution. Those 4 were the only ones that had boost in the source's translation of them.

So there boosted stats are

Franmelth:
Atk: 2600
Def: 2600
Spd: 2500
Curse: 3000

Silver:
Atk: 5200
Def: 4800
Spd: 4000
Curse: 4600

Seilah:
Atk: 5200
Def: 5000
Spd: 4800
Curse: 6000

Kyouka:
Atk: 5200
Def: 5000
Spd: 5500
Curse: 5200
 

kkck

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Thsee are the translated stats that another user posted.

It was translated to be her Limit Release form which gives her a 4000 boost in all her stats. Silver gets a 2000 boost when he puts his feelings into it and Kyouka gets a 2500 boost when she use her Strengthen. Franmelth was also translated to get a 2000 boost when he uses his Revolution. Those 4 were the only ones that had boost in the source's translation of them.

So there boosted stats are

Franmelth:
Atk: 2600
Def: 2600
Spd: 2500
Curse: 3000

Silver:
Atk: 5200
Def: 4800
Spd: 4000
Curse: 4600

Seilah:
Atk: 5200
Def: 5000
Spd: 4800
Curse: 6000

Kyouka:
Atk: 5200
Def: 5000
Spd: 5500
Curse: 5200
Well, if this are true then I would have to adjust my view however I haven't seen these numbers anywhere. Mangafox and narutoforum have the values I mentioned earlier as well as the wikia.

In any case, the cards are here:


The numbers which you added are in the cards although I am not sure of what they mean.
 

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Well, gajeel is the only case which was really portrayed as having about as much as the guys using second origin considering he fought more or less evenly with base natsu as far as we saw.

As far mira.... She fought sayla and we know exactly how strong she is:
Sayla
Durability: 1600
Attack: 1200 (2400 after macro powerup)
Defense: 1000
Speed: 800
Intel: 1800
Curse Power: 2000

And compare her to kyoka:
Kyouka
Durability: 2600
Attack: 2700
Defense: 2500
Speed: 3000
Intel: 2900
Curse Power: 2700

With that alone we know kyoka is more than a decent bit stronger than sayla after hacking herself. Mira at this stage in the manga is already about worthless fodder to an erza going at it seriously. Mira was not able to stand up to macro sayla and ultimately relied on elfman to sucker punch her. And torafusa and tempester had higher numbers than sayla as well....

And now the 3 guys lucy fought:

Jackal
Durability: 1300
Attack: 1500
Defense: 800
Speed: 1800
Intel: 300
Curse Power: 600

Lahmy
Durability: 600
Attack: 200
Defense: 100
Speed: 300
Intel: 600
Curse Power: 200

Torafusa
Durability: 2500
Attack: 1800
Defense: 2000 (6000 in "hardened" form)
Speed: 700
Intel: 1200
Curse Power: 1000

Jackal is more or less comparable to sayla, at worst somewhat inferior. Torafusa in his base form would appear to be well stronger than sayla. And lahmy is not really strong but she at least makes a bat situation worst. Everything considered, lucy holding those 3 back is well more of a feat than what mira did against sayla (which was limited to getting her ass handed to her once she used her transformation).

And to add insult to injury:
Ezel
Durability: 1800
Attack: 1900
Defense: 2000
Speed: 800
Intel: 200
Curse Power: 600

ezel also seems at least somewhat superior to sayla. Basically even dragon force wendy from back then had mira beat.

Mira as a rival to erza is simply not a thing. A year ago she was essentially worthless and simply failed to match up to any of the main characters or even some of the secondary characters. Her powerup over the last year must have been even more insane than what erza, natsu, grey and lucy went through in order for her to have some sort of role to play in the future. Or be worth more than dragon force wendy.... Now, it's not impossible that she went through such a power boost but it just doesn't seem likely considering how much she under performed during the tartarus arc.
These numbers are as official as they are inconsistant. Still, these would be the "true" numbers:

Seilah:
Atk: 5200
Def: 5000
Spd: 4800
Curse: 6000

Kyouka:
Atk: 5200
Def: 5000
Spd: 5500
Curse: 5200

So, yeah, Mira's "loss" is rather justified since unlimited Seilah she's pretty much on par with etherious form kyoka. And even then, she won the fight by altering Sailah's macro and ordering Elfman to come and finish her off.

I understand all of those who consider Mira is nowhere near Erza any longer. Mashima has wanted it like that, and has made it like that. I think we still need to see her in proper action, but she should be as far from Erza as Gajeel is from Natsu.

Still, let's just talk about Lucy. Analyzing her feats on Tartaros, she invoked two spirits at the same time (Taurus and Aries) to fight Franmalth and Keyes. She kind of combined the magic of the spirits. This was a move to escape, and they managed to do so but not with Keyes... Franmalth ended up absorbing the spirits and giving them problems until Natsu showed up.

Then, she was losing badly to Precth Franmalth (which is natural), but she managed to trick him by using her intellect, at which she's very good.

After alegria, her most powerful spirit, Loke, couldn't block an attack from base Torafuzar and got hurt. And, well, Virgo fighting Lamy is not that much of a feat. When she invoked Aquarius, Lucy was pretty much finished and Torafuzar injured Aquarius. Jackal then proceeded to oneshot both Virgo and Loke.

So, by the Tartaros arc, Lucy was capable of invoking three spirits (at a high cost), and extending for a few minutes what was inevitable: her death (hadn't she invoked CSK).

So, her feats (other thank CSK) back in Tartaros are not that good, and I don't think she'd have been capable of defeating any of the gates on her own. She used Urano Metria on Jackal just because she had Aquarius MP, otherwise she wouldn't have been able to. Now, however, I think she'd be able to just take down a few demons.
 

PeanutButterJelly

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These numbers are as official as they are inconsistant. Still, these would be the "true" numbers:

Seilah:
Atk: 5200
Def: 5000
Spd: 4800
Curse: 6000

Kyouka:
Atk: 5200
Def: 5000
Spd: 5500
Curse: 5200

So, yeah, Mira's "loss" is rather justified since unlimited Seilah she's pretty much on par with etherious form kyoka. And even then, she won the fight by altering Sailah's macro and ordering Elfman to come and finish her off.

I understand all of those who consider Mira is nowhere near Erza any longer. Mashima has wanted it like that, and has made it like that. I think we still need to see her in proper action, but she should be as far from Erza as Gajeel is from Natsu.

Still, let's just talk about Lucy. Analyzing her feats on Tartaros, she invoked two spirits at the same time (Taurus and Aries) to fight Franmalth and Keyes. She kind of combined the magic of the spirits. This was a move to escape, and they managed to do so but not with Keyes... Franmalth ended up absorbing the spirits and giving them problems until Natsu showed up.

Then, she was losing badly to Precth Franmalth (which is natural), but she managed to trick him by using her intellect, at which she's very good.

After alegria, her most powerful spirit, Loke, couldn't block an attack from base Torafuzar and got hurt. And, well, Virgo fighting Lamy is not that much of a feat. When she invoked Aquarius, Lucy was pretty much finished and Torafuzar injured Aquarius. Jackal then proceeded to oneshot both Virgo and Loke.

So, by the Tartaros arc, Lucy was capable of invoking three spirits (at a high cost), and extending for a few minutes what was inevitable: her death (hadn't she invoked CSK).

So, her feats (other thank CSK) back in Tartaros are not that good, and I don't think she'd have been capable of defeating any of the gates on her own. She used Urano Metria on Jackal just because she had Aquarius MP, otherwise she wouldn't have been able to. Now, however, I think she'd be able to just take down a few demons.
She summoned 6 spirits and maintained them for a period of time(7 if we count in when they arrived on cube and fought the soldiers,she summoned Loke).
So it was 0. Loke 1.Aries 2.Taurus - getting her magic power drained by Franmalth -3.Saggitarius 4.Vrigo 5.Loke 6.Aquarius

Aquarious is Lucy's most powerful spirit not Loke. Leo was able to partialy block which left Torafuza suprised and even managed to exchange blows with him.
What's the problem with the Aquarious power-up? Nearly every one of them got a power-up that arc and Erza won just because she's Erza.
The 9DG were seriously strong.Natsu lost vs Silver in less than a few seconds and would have lost against Franmalth if Lucy didn't trick him.
 

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She summoned 6 spirits and maintained them for a period of time(7 if we count in when they arrived on cube and fought the soldiers,she summoned Loke).
So it was 0. Loke 1.Aries 2.Taurus - getting her magic power drained by Franmalth -3.Saggitarius 4.Vrigo 5.Loke 6.Aquarius

Aquarious is Lucy's most powerful spirit not Loke. Leo was able to partialy block which left Torafuza suprised and even managed to exchange blows with him.
What's the problem with the Aquarious power-up? Nearly every one of them got a power-up that arc and Erza won just because she's Erza.
The 9DG were seriously strong.Natsu lost vs Silver in less than a few seconds and would have lost against Franmalth if Lucy didn't trick him.
and Natsu draw with Jackal
 
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