Discussion Natsu Dragneel/E.N.D Thread

[DemonKing888]

I agree with your post, but you know this will turn in to a Natsu Bashing thread because some people hate the idea of Natsu one day surpassing the other S Class Mages.

Natsu isn't human so he should have limits higher then a human.

Let's look at Mard Geer who ran the gauntlet fighting the Spirit king then Sting and Rouge followed by Natsu and Gray. Mard Geer was one of the strongest beings ever seen but yet END is suppose to be Zerefs strongest Demon his final master piece.

 

[Vasgoko]

I know that i was right about everything what happened but i am afraid of something. I hope that Mashima won't forget that Natsu is supposed to be the strongest being created from pure power and we won't see nakama power in action because this one story about END is 100 times better than whole manga. I really have enough of Erza's love power up. Mashima created END to make history interesting, he created being who can overpower everyone and devour all enemies. That is how it was/is supposed to be. For me he should continue what he started and give us main hero this manga deserves: the strongest being alive.
What do you think about that?

Although I agree Erza's Nakama power up gets annoying, I don't think the rest of the manga should be about END. To be honest, END isn't all that exciting as of right now cuz Zeref wouldn't open the damn book.

I do agree that END is probably gonna be badass, but he has to compete against Acnologia, so it's not like it's a surprise or exciting in any way.

The first problem as of right now is Zeref. Somebody needs to kill that sickening crybaby before this gets anywhere and I hope the Alvarez Arc does some justice to that.

 

[Axiomus]

Two reasons. first, there is no real evidence that dragons have any degree of actual immunity to human magic. Second, it is too much. Dragons have consistently shown power immensely greater than that of humans. In terms of size laxus did use pretty big attacks but I doubt they come close to what dragons have shown so far. Take a look at the roar mothergrea used. There is no way what laxus used against ajir even compares to that. Sure, the scale of the attacks is considerable however motherglare's roar traveled past the city well into the distance and caused a explosion which seemed huge. In turn what we saw from laxus was pretty big but also in the immediate vicinity. Laxus at this point might be able to defeat a dragon. However him actually matching the raw power of one probably won't be a thing.

To put dragon's power in context... We just saw natsu almost killing zeref. And what did natsu used? Leftovers from igneel's power. Just how immense was igneel's power that leftovers from it were enough to work? Ok, maybe it is not outright impossible for a human to match a dragon in terms of raw power. However the implication so far is that dragons have a volume of power so absurdly immense that even a punch from makarov is nothing to one much weaker than acknologia. It is so absurdly immense that even when faced with a dragon slayer of laxus caliber 2 years ago zirconis walked out of it pretty much unscathed. And there is no reason to think dragon slayer magic is less effective against dragons than it is against demons. How many times stronger than makarov do you have to be to not even flinch at his attack? dozens? Hundreds? thousands? Maybe it is plausible for a human to eventually acquire that sort of power... but over how long? I doubt even among the sprigan there are people who have dozens of times the power makarov has. And to be fair, zeref gathered the springan to defeat acknologia.

I don't see that big of a difference between what Laxus did and what Motherglare did. Why can't I say that Laxus can match Motherglare in raw power? Is range that big of a deal? After all, you're hitting the same target. Wahl's beam traveled 400km, but I would still rank many of Laxus' attacks as more destructive than it.

Natsu was able to handle Zeref so well because he was using Igneel's power. Not every dragon are on the same level. Igneel is on Acnologia's level, and clearly that's on a level far above the likes of the ones at the Grand Magic Games. Dragons like Zilconis are scared to even say Acnologia's name. If Natsu was using Atlas Flame's power, he wouldn't have done nearly as well.

Hades doesn't flinch when Makarov attacks him, and he's not hundreds or thousands of times stronger than Makarov. Mages like the Spriggan 12 also probably woundn't be intimidated by Makarov's punch.

 

[iDooom]

Natsu is certainly one of the strongest members of the FT guild, especially with DF. However, I believe that base natsu is greatly overrated because of the FDK spells (which I will argue rely upon some of Igneel’s power).

First let’s look at Ikusatsunagi. Natsu’s regular fire attack did pretty much nothing. Then his next FDK attacks shatters the giant. I find it pretty hard to believe that Natsu can increase the power of his attack ~100 times just like that. Also, he specifically talks about Igneel’s flames and hits it with his right (bandaged) arm.
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/434/12

Natsu’s FDK roar is also on the same scale. Note that after both his attacks, natsu doesn’t seem tired at all. This would be pretty strange if natsu was using his own magic power unless he has enough to spam attacks like that. These attacks also seem on the same level as the attacks he used on zeref without blaze dragon king mode (but with tattoo unwrapped).
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/435/5
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/463/17
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/464/13

Finally, natsu grips his arm and appears to consider using Igneel’s power when he first comes across Brandish. Which shouldn’t happen if base natsu > spriggans.
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/443/11

Other than these FDK feats, natsu’s best feat is one-shotting bluenote, which honestly isn’t that impressive when compared to spriggans.

Since the tattoo will likely run out next chapter, we’ll probably see if my theory is right.

 

[Axiomus]

I don't think the Fire Dragon King spells are using Igneel's power. When Natsu fought Zeref using Igneel's power, he only entered Fire Dragon King Mode for his last punch. His other attacks were fueled with Igneel's power, but they were never stated to be fire dragon king spells.

When Happy saw Natsu unraveling the bandages, he was surprised that Natsu was going to use Igneel's power so soon. If Natsu was using it in his Fire Dragon King's roar against the Alvarez forces, wouldn't Happy had his reaction there? He says he can only use Igneel's power once. That seems kind of meaningless if he can just ration the power whenever he feels like it. He had enough power to launch one more attack at Zeref but he was afraid it was about to run out if he doesn't finish the fight there. Why would he be afraid of that it would run out if it turns out Natsu can control how much he uses? Couldn't he just store that power and use it for later?

Plus, why would Natsu use Igneel's power for opponents like the War God and the Alvarez Troops, but purposely hold back against the Spriggan 12? One of those punches Natsu gave Zeref would probably take out someone like Ajeel.

---------- Post added at 03:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 AM ----------

Even without his Fire Dragon King spells, Natsu can already do massive punches. Like the one he used in the grand magic games when he first came back. Or last chapter, when he punched the Alvarez troops. I don't find it that hard to believe that Natsu can use Fire Dragon King spells on his own power because some of his normal attacks are already pretty impressive: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/463/10

 

[Nizen]

Well, it seems that I was right. END did not have anything to do with Taratarus at all. Mard Geer basically bluffed all of it. But the question is why did he do this? I have a theory:

- Mard Geer knew that he was wayy too weak to defeat Zeref. That is why he initiated the plan of removing magic. He could've been taking a chance by thinking that if magic was removed, Zeref would be rendered useless. Since the effect of the curse would no longer persist, Zeref could be killed. And that fact about END having a magic seal is something I highly doubt, it feels like it doesn't.


Also, now I'm doubting END's credibility. Since Zeref said Natsu can no longer kill him was he trying to say nothing can kill him now? Not even END? Well, he did mention that it will be Natsu or END who will FINALLY meet him. I am curious about his motives..


^^^^ Silver uttered Natsu's name in an awkward manner after meeting him in the prison. Then he exclaimed, "DON'T TELL ME!". Natsu's name filled END's full name perfectlyy if he had tried that combination. Maybe then he became sure that Natsu was END and delivered the message to Gray saying that he was a fire demon.

 

[Brandish μ]

Edit: This post can be ignored, Axiomus made most of my points

Natsu is certainly one of the strongest members of the FT guild, especially with DF. However, I believe that base natsu is greatly overrated because of the FDK spells (which I will argue rely upon some of Igneel’s power).

This is debatable, his roar on Bluenote was quite impressive. Nonetheless the FDK spells are his most impressive moves, and I take it you're assuming that if Natsu uses FDK spells he is using some of Igneel's power?

First let’s look at Ikusatsunagi. Natsu’s regular fire attack did pretty much nothing. Then his next FDK attacks shatters the giant. I find it pretty hard to believe that Natsu can increase the power of his attack ~100 times just like that. Also, he specifically talks about Igneel’s flames and hits it with his right (bandaged) arm.
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/434/12

@bold - it's a simple case of magic power. That fist he used there just might not have had much MP in it. To compare these 2 attacks you have to consider the amount of effort Natsu put into them, because that alone determines how much big/powerful the spell will be. For the sake of this argument I'll let demolition fist be from Igneel's power (although I don't believe it so). Now take a look at the link below;
Much more powerful fire dragons iron fist

That is off Natsu's power I presume as it's not a FDK spell. It's not as big as demolition fist but it's nowhere near as small as the punch that Natsu first put on the war god.

Natsu’s FDK roar is also on the same scale. Note that after both his attacks, natsu doesn’t seem tired at all. This would be pretty strange if natsu was using his own magic power unless he has enough to spam attacks like that. These attacks also seem on the same level as the attacks he used on zeref without blaze dragon king mode (but with tattoo unwrapped).
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/435/5
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/463/17
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/464/13

You're ignoring 2 main points here.
1. Happy
2. Zeref

Doesn't that seem like Happy and Zeref are inferring there is another power now, like Igneel's? That is Natsu fought that army beforehand, and now Happy is saying that Natsu is going to use 'that' power. I'm siding with Happy and Zeref over this.

Finally, natsu grips his arm and appears to consider using Igneel’s power when he first comes across Brandish. Which shouldn’t happen if base natsu > spriggans.
http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/443/11

Base Natsu doesn't neccesarily have to be as strong as Spriggans, but he's displaying feats on Spriggan level. Natsu just might have trouble controlling this power when facing a powerful opponent, and ran to Zeref so he could quickly use it wisely, I don't know.

Other than these FDK feats, natsu’s best feat is one-shotting bluenote, which honestly isn’t that impressive when compared to spriggans.

That roar was huge. To me it's as impressive as some dragon roars. It's as impressive as Sands of death by Ajeel to me. And it's a roar, we know that Natsu has secret arts that are more powerful. Spriggan's have barely got a chance to shine yet either. August blocking Laxus' nuke is the best feat so far for mine.

Since the tattoo will likely run out next chapter, we’ll probably see if my theory is right.

We'll need to see Natsu fight again most likely. Or he could state it for us to make it easier. Either way we've seen Natsu still be able to use Lightning Flame dragon mode after running out of Laxus magic power, so it's quite possible Natsu can use Flame dragon king spells but have to run off his own MP. Is there any reason to think Natsu can't pull of a FDK roar if he can pull off the roar against Bluenote?

 

[Zehahaha]

Zeref said only END or Natsu can meet him, Mard Geer said that END was the one who created curses (this is debatable), more importantly, Igneel went through a lot just to retrieve the book of END and not " open " it, he also said " we've stopped END's ressurection " when the dragons destroyed FACE, Igneel said that Acnologia fears END
and finally,Zeref then praised Mard Geer and said he was close " to revive " END

Certainly Mard Geer never met END, he probably just heard about him. And now that Natsu lost his powerup, how he's gonna beat the likes of Acnologia/Zeref if not for his Etherious powers ?

And also, if END = Natsu (like no Etherious powers/other persona involved), how the hell did he became well known as the most " vile demon " from Zeref's books ? Certainly END rampaged before (aka a fight against Acnologia)

 

[DemonKing888]

A child Natsu could still be considered a vile Flame Demon even before Igneel taught him Dragon Slaying magic. For one children can be bratty, self-centered, reckless, and can be prone to throw Tantrums. If Natsu's true power is locked away in that book it wouldn't be farfetch to believe that a little Natsu rampage round setting the world on fire causing Igneel to consider killing him while also giving Natsu the title of strongest most vile demon.

We don't even know how Igneel got his scars or why he would consider Natsu for dragon slaying magic if he didn't see potential in him. My theory is that maybe Igneel did fight baby Natsu and while being superior enough to kill him easily, Natsu was still able to scar him an amazing feat no mage in fairytail has ever been able to do. Causing Igneel to ask Zeref if he could take Natsu in agreement that his book be sealed away till Igneel deem he was ready to use such a powerup.

Natsu could still surpass Laxus, Gildarts and Jellal, or he may never surpass them, but we shouldn't act like Natsu the M.A.I.N which spells main, definition of main: chief in size or importance Main freaky character of this story who has more importance in the defeat of Zeref, Acnologia, and possibly Ankhseram could not get such a powerup.

 

[Holt]

Lucy is actually the main character in Fairy Tail. I find it quite unrealistic to think a baby Natsu would've scarred Igneel. Perhaps his Etheropus power was dangerous and unstable and a few outbursts caused him to be know as vile, him being able to scar a dragon without even having dragon slaying magic at that time seems impossible tbh. Another thing is that END being known as a vile demon might have simply been a myth started by someone or a rumor. Either to deter people from trying to get Natsu or for some other unknown reason. Heck it could've been Zeref himself who started it to protect Natsu and since he and Igneel were friends, perhaps Igneel agreed to go with the flow.
Or perhaps someone impersonated END and that's how he came to have such a reputation because frankly, how can one expect that a kid Natsu would've been able to do things that even a dragon would revere. Perhaps the Etherious power is something that could be feared but if it was just Natsu, then I don't see how much of those things would be believable. Whatever the real reason is, while I believe END is immensely powerful, I believe there's something wrong with the story or current opinion of his past that has been presented to us.

 

[Zehahaha]

Lucy is actually the main character in Fairy Tail. I find it quite unrealistic to think a baby Natsu would've scarred Igneel. Perhaps his Etheropus power was dangerous and unstable and a few outbursts caused him to be know as vile, him being able to scar a dragon without even having dragon slaying magic at that time seems impossible tbh. Another thing is that END being known as a vile demon might have simply been a myth started by someone or a rumor. Either to deter people from trying to get Natsu or for some other unknown reason. Heck it could've been Zeref himself who started it to protect Natsu and since he and Igneel were friends, perhaps Igneel agreed to go with the flow.
Or perhaps someone impersonated END and that's how he came to have such a reputation because frankly, how can one expect that a kid Natsu would've been able to do things that even a dragon would revere. Perhaps the Etherious power is something that could be feared but if it was just Natsu, then I don't see how much of those things would be believable. Whatever the real reason is, while I believe END is immensely powerful, I believe there's something wrong with the story or current opinion of his past that has been presented to us.

It contradicts a lot of stuff that Mashima presented before

1. My beef with this is that according to Igneel, Acnologia fears END... Assuming Natsu doesn't have Etherious powers and stuff, how could he fear him ?
2. Another thing, is that Igneel warned Natsu not TO OPEN THE BOOK nor destroy it, we know why he warned him to not destroy it... But about the opening part ?
3. END being the one who created " curses " apparently
4. Zeref saying that either Natsu or END can reach him (or kill him)
5. END being known as a flame demon

No matter how you look at it, that book is there for a reason, Mard Geer wanted to remove the seal for a reason, Igneel tried to stop him for a reason too
Zeref's story is incomplete IMO

 

[Brandish μ]

^You're assuming everything presented = fact. In the chapters Memoirs and 400 Years we got info that overruled previous info. When it comes to END Zeref and Igneel are the only 2 confirmed character to know END. The rest of the talk from anyone is rumors pretty much just like everyday rumors we hear you take it with a grain of salt.

Acnologia is the strongest character in this series, then Igneel. The END we get to see will also be the strongest version I would imagine, compared to 400 years ago.

 

[Holt]

It contradicts a lot of stuff that Mashima presented before

1. My beef with this is that according to Igneel, Acnologia fears END... Assuming Natsu doesn't have Etherious powers and stuff, how could he fear him ?
2. Another thing, is that Igneel warned Natsu not TO OPEN THE BOOK nor destroy it, we know why he warned him to not destroy it... But about the opening part ?
3. END being the one who created " curses " apparently
4. Zeref saying that either Natsu or END can reach him (or kill him)
5. END being known as a flame demon

No matter how you look at it, that book is there for a reason, Mard Geer wanted to remove the seal for a reason, Igneel tried to stop him for a reason too
Zeref's story is incomplete IMO

I doubt that Natsu as END did much in the past. He was just a kid. Remember the photo of someone fighting Acnologia? That was a grown person. Perhaps someone was impersonating END. Could've been Zeref himself or maybe before Natsu was revived, Zeref created that etherious which became notoriously known as END and that demon was later sealed into Natsu or assimilated into him to give him life. There's definitely stuff missing but I think the END in the legends isn't Natsu. What Zeref said implies that Natsu and END are different, at least different enough for apparently only one to be in dominant. It would explain why Igneel said not to open the book since it'd release that demon. It could've been that Etherious who created curses and who fought Acnologia. It's pretty complicated and there's not much one can say as fact. It's either the things in the legends were rumors or false or the Etherious part had a mind of its own.

 

[EmperorSpriggan]

What if Natsu was an adult prior that of meeting igneel and fighting him(if they did) and he reverted back into a child body if they sealed away his powers back into the book?, maybe thats what happend?


PS:

Found a rly good picture i hope his etherious form look like that

 

[Zehahaha]

^You're assuming everything presented = fact. In the chapters Memoirs and 400 Years we got info that overruled previous info. When it comes to END Zeref and Igneel are the only 2 confirmed character to know END. The rest of the talk from anyone is rumors pretty much just like everyday rumors we hear you take it with a grain of salt.

Acnologia is the strongest character in this series, then Igneel. The END we get to see will also be the strongest version I would imagine, compared to 400 years ago.

Half of the stuff I mentioned before came straight from the mouth of Zeref and Igneel, not Mard Geer or the rest
So it's Mashima who's contradicting himself, not me

 

[EmperorSpriggan]

Is Natsu in his Etherious form stronger than Gildarts and Spriggan 12?

 

[Axiomus]

It contradicts a lot of stuff that Mashima presented before

1. My beef with this is that according to Igneel, Acnologia fears END... Assuming Natsu doesn't have Etherious powers and stuff, how could he fear him ?
2. Another thing, is that Igneel warned Natsu not TO OPEN THE BOOK nor destroy it, we know why he warned him to not destroy it... But about the opening part ?
3. END being the one who created " curses " apparently
4. Zeref saying that either Natsu or END can reach him (or kill him)
5. END being known as a flame demon

No matter how you look at it, that book is there for a reason, Mard Geer wanted to remove the seal for a reason, Igneel tried to stop him for a reason too
Zeref's story is incomplete IMO

Igneel was trying to bargain with Acnologia to leave the humans alone. Igneel himself doesn't fear END, and he probably knows that Acnologia woudn't have feared him either if Acnologia knew the truth.

Opening the book could reveal information to Natsu on him being Zeref's brother, and maybe Igneel doesn't want to deal with that right now. It's a book, after all.

That was stated by Mard Geer. Probably more myth than anything else. After all, END was the last demon created and most demons have never met him (he was never the leader of Tartarus). The demons were created to be biological weapons. If they didn't have their curse power before END, they would have been powerless.

This is probably the biggest piece of evidence for END and Natsu being separate, but you can almost chalk it up to Zeref being intentionally vague. He even said that Igneel couldn't destroy END, but conveniently left out the part where it was out of love You know when Obi-wan told Luke that Vader killed his father, and then later made up some stuff about it being all a matter of perspective? I see it kind of like that.

Again, probably a product of myth. We know Natsu died in a fire and Zeref had him train under Igneel. If Mard Geer heard rumors, I can definitely see him coming up with theories on END's nature. And then passing those myths on to Silver

 

[Brandish μ]

Half of the stuff I mentioned before came straight from the mouth of Zeref and Igneel, not Mard Geer or the rest
So it's Mashima who's contradicting himself, not me

Yes so half of the stuff is an assumption, no? I will refer to you post where you suggested 5 contradictions...

Acnologia HIMSELF said he didn't fear END. So I take the whole premise that Acnologia fears END as just speculation from other characters in the series (Igneel and Mard I think). You can also speculate that Acnologia is lying when he says he doesn't fear END, if you want to.

Telling Natsu not to open the book could just mean that Natsu gets absorbed into the book, like Mard did. The result of opening the book is unknown, thus a contradiction is impossible.

END inventing curses is something Mard said I believe.

Even if END hype is to kill Zeref there might be more to it then straight up power (example of this would be the 'dead' power that he referred to when Natsu used Igneels power-up). I do believe that Zeref is someone who would know better than anyone about the possibility of him dying; and from this you can infer that Acnologia's raw power is not enough to kill Zeref even if the fight would go Acnologia's way. So if you sum those up you get END > Zeref > Acnologia; and that alone seems unreasonable with the info at hand.

END being the flame demon is something that Zeref or Igneel haven't stated, however this seems the most reliable rumor of all.


There's more to come on the END story, atm there's a whole heap of speculation but probably less than there was before Memoirs/400 Years. And I am not exactly confident that Mashima will deliver something well-rounded in regards to END either, because it seems convoluted atm.

 

[kkck]

There clearly is more to end. We saw marg geer as he faced zeref. Zeref reverted him to a book. In other words demons created by zeref are not just created from books, they are literal books that take on an etherius form. The same should ultimately apply to natsu. So why is there a book of end which exists independently from natsu but yet is clearly connected to him? The implication is at least that there is an aspect of natsu that is currently sealed. And something terrible will happen once the book opens. In all of this you still have to fit in curses and whatever lead everyone to believe that end was a fire demon to begin with.

Filling in the gaps, what I can infer is that at some point after zeref created natsu something went wrong. Presumably even after igneel took natsu in. After igneel took natsu in and taught him magic natsu went through a change. Basically he transformed into what people have referred to as END. So with his dragon slaying curse and transformation he came to be known as the fire demon END. Zeref then dealt with this new form or aspect of natsu. After much destruction he sealed this new form natsu had into a book. So the evil part of natsu, END, was sealed in a book while zeref's younger brother wandered around freely. Zeref being a being of contradiction initially was all for sealing END and allowing him to live happily and eventually accomplish his fate. In turn now zeref is more insane and it would make sense for him to free an immensely powerful creature with a dragon slaying curse into the world.

 

[Vasgoko]

Is Natsu in his Etherious form stronger than Gildarts and Spriggan 12?

Who knows? For all we know, he could be defected after Zeref put a dumb hole right in the middle of that book. But likely, yes.