Shounen Nisekoi by Naoshi Komi

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

Examples please. I like Nisekoi and I like slice of life, whether romcon or not. I would like to read these manga that are so similar to Nisekoi, and am bewildered how despite being a fan of the genre I have overlooked so many. Whether true or not it is nearly impossible, and makes for a very poor argument, to compare a manga negatively to other, unspecified titles. Along with unqualified denouncements of quality based on qualities that have not been specified make for a terrible discussion. Nisekoi does follow genre conventions, though this is not a negative as novelty generally makes for poor writing. With only five chapters rewriting the rules of a genre is certainly a bit much to expect, so please: where does Nisekoi come up lacking when compared to other examples of slice of life/romcon/school life? There is nothing with disliking a manga based on subjective taste. But it is a very poor argument to claim to make a seemingly objective claim that a manga is somehow inadequate based on a reason as open to interpretation as being "typical" of genre. One Piece is typical of it's genre but no one would make a claim that it is bad. Neither H2 or Cross Game were very different than Touch, yet no who has read them ever complain. Kimi ni Todoke follows the same blue print as Lovely Complex, as do most shoujo romcon. But that does not take away from what a great story KimiTodo is. Not that Nisekoi should be compared to those manga, comparing a five chapter manga to such classics would make about as much sense as comparing Kagami and Nisekoi. But it goes to show that being if being "typical" means following genre conventions than being "typical" does not mean being bad. Hopefully being "typical" does not mean lacking novelty, as adding novel features to a genre does not really have much of a positive or negative effect on story telling.
Your asking for examples? That means you want me to give hundreds of romcom series as examples. I'm saying that so far, Nisekoi is following general romcom routines. For instance, like first chapter, main male and female lead meet first (?) time → they had fight → find out that female (or male) lead is new student → both surprised → a teacher let those two sit together because s/he thought those two knew each other; this is typical romcom routine.

Also, I never said Nisekoi is bad; I only said there aren't anything new about it. If Komi keep putting this typical routine, then I'll lose interest in early stage because it will be too predictable. What I want is different routine that is different from other romcoms.

Double Arts was a very charming manga with very interesting, likable characters but had an aimless, meandering plot that was unraveling by chapter 5. By chapter 5 they were traveling to a never specified location and were soon fighting villains whose role and affiliation was never explained. But simply saying something is bad as it is "typical" is a thread killer, no one who likes the series could possibly debate something so vague successfully. Hopefully they come back to discuss the new chapter, it is kind of sad not having people who actually like the series to talk to.
Double Arts have lots of things unexplained because it was cancelled. Some authors choose to uncover all of series' secrets and the others do not. Komi chose later one, so many things are left unexplained.

However, I think what Negative's point is that its nothing too new to have a romance comedy based on the leads having crazy backgrounds - perhaps though Nisekoi kind of adds to this a bit by having BOTH sides be part of the crazy background.
My point is about a romocom routine, not a background.

After reading chapter 5, I predict that it'll be either Onodera makes excuse and Raku believes her or Onodera tells a truth and (possibly) their relationship will become deeper. I, mostly, prefer a later to happen because it'll be interesting to see Raku tries to balance both Onodera's real relationship and Chitoge's fake relationship. I don't think I see any romcom that is happened the later one. If first aspect did occurred, then it might lead to another typical romcom route again.
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

Edit: Also to add a bit I think incidentally another weakness of this manga so far has actually been the main character. His feelings are way too easily swayed - so Raku manages to catch glimpses of Kagami being attractive to him - given that he's all about keeping his childhood promise and a guy of loyalty or strong romanticism I find this part rather contradictory. It seems more like he'd be fine with whichever girl he picks at this point, which to me is a weakness rather than a strength since there is notement of conflict in choosing between the love triangle.
That's actually pretty commonplace in shonen RomComs. But even if you ignore the cliche of it it's actually true of young boys that age. I know I was like that. I would see a girl I like, ask her out and what not, no basically nothing about her but be so infatuated by her because of her looks. Then the relationship would end and I would be sad....until another pretty girl walked in front of me then I was in love again. So personally I love that the main character is like that because it's pretty damn realistic in my opinion. Sure adult men aren't necessarily as easily swayed by just a few glimpses of beauty but boys sure are.

Also, it might not be just the looks that are making him like her more. He sees her as being "ugly" like with her personality, how she talks, and the way she acts. And when he sees her looking cute (she is also at these moments not calling him names or going berserk), he starts to think there might be something kind underneath which makes him start to think that she might not be so bad after all. Hmm....all that sounded a little gay. :thumbs
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

It's not as though he has fallen for her after one glance. He has not been wishy-washy but still looks at her as a gorilla. She had a cute moment, he realized she was kind of hot, then remembered he found her personality insufferable. There is nothing to indicate he likes Onodera any less for it. If he does develop feelings for Kirasaki it will be due to getting her know better, because of being forced together. Call it Stockholm Syndrome or getting to know someone better but it would be only natural in real life, given the circumstances. Given that she is actually a nice person, it would be really unnatural feeling if they never develop even a slight crush. Conflicting feelings would be far more realistic than ignoring all of Kirasaki's good qualities despite the amount of time he is forced to spend with her.
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

That's actually pretty commonplace in shonen RomComs. But even if you ignore the cliche of it it's actually true of young boys that age. Hmm....all that sounded a little gay. :thumbs
It is pretty common place in RomCom that was exactly the criticism brought up since its not really defining itself much and starting to play out rather familiarly. Realism is the last thing I'd look for in a manga with a guy who has a Yakuza for a family and is forced to date a fake girlfriend nothing implies this is a slice of life, so following realism is the last thing I'd consider. Sides why bring up realism when you have majority of a Yakuza/Mafia members following some high school kids on their 'first date' - handful for body guard perhaps but they never bothered to be inconspicuous - and acting like young girls kyaaing at every instance or rooting on them. Yes they like the two and consider them family but lets face it there isn't dates where family members/friends and spy on you this is something that only happens in fantasy for most part - and very sad realities for a select few I guess XD.

Of course in reality young boys and their feelings waver a lot and that has been the material for a lot of manga along with being dumb for Raku to ignore the good qualities of Kirisaki. However, it really doesn't change the fact that at this point - the manga being young and all - I'm not seeing any tension or issues with whom he picks. Reason being exactly how easily moved he is when he makes a discovery of a good point in Kirisaki that you could easily find or imagine Onodera to have, or for that matter any girl or heck even guys if 'niceness' or 'cuteness' appeals to you they way it does Raku. I'm not seeing much unique qualities with the two girls beyond the surface. Frankly if niceness and cuteness was enough to create inner conflict for a guy who held on to a promise, which is supposed to be his unique quality that would have helped to set him apart from young boys his age (in addition to being the son of a Yakuza), then I do find him rather fickle. I do not care if it is normal because normality for Raku is pretty much different from boys his age and part of his normality so far has been obsessing over the promise and finding that girl so that when he caves in too easily that it doesn't leave the best impression on his character as it undermines what makes him stand out.

Moving on from Raku and a bit into Kirisaki I would think that the best appeal both characters should have with one another is the fact that they share a similar background, being the son/daughter of the yakuza/mafia, so that it should be easy to relate or even be honest with each other in not hiding what type of background they have. After all their common background is the most unique quality they have. This just yet again points out to my gripe of what a shame the yakuza/mafia aspect has been sanitized or made cute that it ends up being just a device to push the two into dating.
 
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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

Raku does not seem to really relish his background. It makes sense that the more demure, seemingly wholesome Onodera would be more appealing than the rough around the edges Kirasaki. The rough around the edges Kirasaki represents everything he wants to escape from. He consciously wants to leave his background behind, someone with the same roots was bound to rub him the wrong way.

I'm not really sure he has reached the point of internal conflict yet. One fleeting moment of passing cuteness, and a brief admission that she is not that bad, has not made Raku question his feelings for Onodera. He still wails about being trapped with the gorilla for three years. The emotional conflict should develop slowly, over the course of a few volumes, or not at all. Maybe he never sees anything in her, and at best they become allies in making peace between their clans and setting Raku up with Onodera. Half a volume is to soon to establish much of a plot or any tension, other than the most basic of set up.

Emotional realism is essential to any slice of life manga, romcon or otherwise. No matter what the setting, the reader has to be able to identify with what the characters are feeling, on some level. The better the characters, the more audience sympathizes. Take away the emotional realism, or make the series ridiculous to the point where no one can identify, and the series does not fall apart. The Yakuza and Gangsters are the setting, the scenery. Maybe they symbolize the battle of the sexes. With our two clashing, ill suited protagonist that makes for a nice little metaphor. But a fantastic setting does not mean the emotions can not be realistic, and the romantic situations identifiable.

I'm not sure what one could expect from Nisekoi, as far as being "typical" of it's genre goes. It is fully possible to transcend genre without while still adhering to genre conventions. Chihayafuru is a transcendent manga without ever abandoning genre conventions. Not to say that Nisekoi will be a classic but in a genre where what is said is more important than how it is said, it is hard to a judge manga before the mangaka has had the time to develop the story. I have yet to see a series, intended to last indefinitely, capable of establishing it's full voice in half a volume. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a series for being fun and entertaining while it develops that voice. And no matter how original the setting or premise, what really matters is if the author has something to say or not. Berserk is one of many action manga, with nothing in it's setting or premise to set it apart. It is Miura's storytelling that makes it transcendent, despite being typical of it's genre.
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

Chapter 7 was hilarious!! This page in particular had me laughing out loud. The three panels in the middle where she is trying to hand him the cake is the greatest :XD
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

Most enjoyable chapter so far.I think Komi finally managed to settle a good slice-of-lifish atmosphere.
The comedy was great and the fantastic art underlined it well.
Starting to look forward to the new chapters.
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

But still no plot movement.....
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

What kinda plot development did you expect?This is a slice-of-lifish romcom in Shonen Jump,which is supposed to last as long as possible,so I don't mind the lack of plot-development.At least as long as it's entertaining.
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

What kinda plot development did you expect?This is a slice-of-lifish romcom in Shonen Jump,which is supposed to last as long as possible,so I don't mind the lack of plot-development.At least as long as it's entertaining.
I don't really think Nisekoi is a slice-of-lifish romcom; it is just romcom.
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

But still no plot movement.....
I'm not sure what you expect from a manga after 7 chapters but if it hasn't met your expectations why bother reading? Why bother posting, for that matter. I'm not sure what you expected after less than a volume but I doubt it will suddenly morph into a fast paced manga, so please spare the rest of us.

I don't really think Nisekoi is a slice-of-lifish romcom; it is just romcom.
These are not scientific terms -_-; They are not even publisher terms or technical jargon. Slice of life is an informal fan term used for manga that take place in a realistic, modern day setting. The story itself does not have to be realistic but the setting does. Like all genre designations it is purely informal and often used interchangeably with a handful of other genre designations. Romantic comedies, comedy, drama are all generally considered slice of life, a broad inclusive term. So yes: one can equally call nisekoi a slice of life manga, slice of life romcon, slice of life romantic comedy, slice of life romance with a comedic twist, a school life romantic slice of life comedy, or whatever the hell else they want. Thanks for posting though. Hopefully next time I check new posts it will be actual manga discussion rather than bitching about the pace, nitpicking over genre tags, or condemnations of a Jump manga's originality or lack there of :)
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

I really love this series. The art is great and really cute, the character designs are good and I'm enjoying the pacing of the series. If I had to nitpick, I had a bit of a problem in chapter 1 with the amount Raku kept on shouting, but I quickly got over it.

My definite favourite new Jump series of 2011 and looking foward to purchasing the Tankobon. :D
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

Agreed. I care enough about the characters that I actually care how the romance develops. Having to nitpick, the yakuza/gangster elements seems gimmicky. It's a good set up but only has limited long term potential. I am happy that it has been of little importance to the last few chapters. It reminds me of Riku switching back and forth between his night and day form at the beginning of Mago. A nice idea in a one shot but the series was better for downplaying it's importance and switching the focus.

Chapter 7 was hilarious!! This page in particular had me laughing out loud. The three panels in the middle where she is trying to hand him the cake is the greatest :XD
This was my favorite part: http://www.mangareader.net/nisekoi/7/21

It was fun getting to know a little more about Onodera. While not much, I thought her being a horrific cook was funny, especially when she was scolded by her mother! While not much, it is a nice way to start making her more than the to cute girl next door.
 
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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

I'm not sure what you expect from a manga after 7 chapters but if it hasn't met your expectations why bother reading? Why bother posting, for that matter. I'm not sure what you expected after less than a volume but I doubt it will suddenly morph into a fast paced manga, so please spare the rest of us.
I bother posting because I'm a fan of Naoshi too. I really don't get what Naoshi wants with this story. Does he want a slice-of-life or a romcom?? I just wish he'd make it clear here. If he doesn't show us what he wants out of this story, he's gonna get axed for sure.
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

While I appreciate you are a fan of Naoshi, this thread is for fans of Nisekoi. Constructive criticism is always appreciated and your disapproval for the pacing of the story has been noted. But now it is time for the discussion to move on, continuously posting the same criticism is becoming a disruption and adding nothing to the conversation. Now please let those of us who actually want to discuss the manga, the new chapters, the characters and the plot do so in peace.

I assume my earlier post was not clear so I will slow it down a bit. Slice of life is an informal description of setting that many manga fans use to describe titles centered around home, work, and school. A slice of everyday life, if you will. It is a setting, not a genre. Romantic comedy is a genre, describing a title where romance is central to the plot and the story is delivered in a humorous manner. As slice of life is a setting, not a genre, it is impossible for an author to be conflicted over making a manga slice of life or romantic comedy. Happily, a manga needs both a plot and a setting, so Niseokoi is a slice of life romantic comedy. Or romantic comedy for short. I hope your ability to enjoy Nisekoi has improved now that it is clear that the plot and setting are not in conflict and that the mangaka is not being indecisive about which of the two to choose. And hopefully the rest of us can get back to actually discussing the manga we enjoy. I am certain there will never, ever be any discussion about the finer points of what makes a manga slice of life and what makes one a romantic comedy :)

---------- Post added at 01:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:42 AM ----------

Setting and plot are such fundamental aspects of storytelling that Mangahelpers is not the appropriate place to address confusion between the two. As the difference is generally a remedial topic irregardless of language, please refer to primary school reading and writing lessons to better understand the difference. Discussion regarding the difference between slice of life and romantic comedy will be deleted as off topic, as will any confusion about the order in which setting and plot are established. The order in which the two are established in Nisekoi should be immediately obvious simply by reading a few panels of chapter 1. The order in which the author "put forth" setting, why he chose to do so in the order he did, and why this was not a writing mistake should also be obvious after reading the first few panels of chapter 1. This topic does not need any further discussion and any further posts about the subject will be met with swift, immediate moderator action.

Furthermore we have established that some readers do not care for the pace of Nisekoi. While understandable the subject has been discussed on numerous enough occasions that it is now merely interrupting discussion. Continued discussion may be deleted at moderator discretion. As will useless comparisons to Kagami. I am well aware that certain parties began voicing displeasure in the Jump TOC thread regarding Nisekoi's genre before serialization even began. While legitimate and understandable it has now been two months since the series began, it is time to move on and allow members who wish to discuss new chapters free reign to do so. Failure to be courteous and allow other members this right will be treated as a rules violation and breach of forum etiquette, offending posts will be deleted at moderator discretion. Further disciplinary action may be taken by the global moderator or administrative level if deemed appropriate.
 
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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

What the!!??:blink Here I am, giving out valid criticisms of Nisekoi and now you intend to shove away my criticisms just because you don't like it?? very mature.:-_-

Look, I don't mind being proven wrong, but you don't have to act all so high and mighty about it. If you want to prove me wrong, then show me where I was wrong about.

Where's the slice-of-life?? where's the rom-com?? and back to my question (that you deleted:-_-), why didn't he put the slice-of-life forward before the rom-com?? and if I'm wrong about that, then please show and explain it to me. That's all I'm asking for instead of just deleting my post like that.
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

What the hell do you actually think slice of life is? Your question doesn't make any goddamn sense bro -_-;

Seriously, slice of life is just the setting. The location Nisekoi takes place in is someone's home, school, and home town. Romantic Comedy is a genre, a vague categorization for titles with similar framing stories. Let us be very clear neither is the plot: the plot is a specific description of events in the story. Therefore "slice of life being put before romantic comedy" is a completely invalid statement, as genre can not be "put forward before" the setting. Each are unrelated aspects of the story, established independently of one another. To summarize: slice of life is a description of setting, the location a story takes place in. It does not describe the plot or the genre in any way. Romantic Comedy is a genre, a loose categorization for titles with similar framing story. Genre is not a description of setting, nor does it describe plot specifics. One can not be "put forward before" the other as they are put forward independent of each other. I hope that helped :)

Do we have your permission to resume discussion of chapter 7 or do we have to hear about Kagami, the pace, or putting the setting before the genre again? Seriously dude, nobody cares and we don't want to hear anymore useless, repetitive complaints. It's been old, give it a rest. You've been complaining about the manga since chapter one.
 
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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

What the!!??:blink Here I am, giving out valid criticisms of Nisekoi and now you intend to shove away my criticisms just because you don't like it?? very mature.:-_-
Look I'm not such a fan of Nisekoi but it should at least be noted in any criticisms that this manga is still quite young, i.e. 7 chapters in. So thing is its still very difficult to give any statements or criticisms that may be conclusive or better yet too critical due to how young this manga is. I'd just like to request that criticisms on this manga be put on hold till say 20 chapters in since its really far too young - nor is this a cerebral manga like Shingeki that would easily generate such discussions. Reason I am giving out this request is that perhaps discussions have been a bit too harsh with regard to Nisekoi in being too hasty asking for this and that to happen when its only been 7 chapters in, I think part of the reason here is that I notice the ones who have been more critical (which include me) are IMO fans of Kagami. So that as with earlier discussions there was too much comparison between the two now that it was asked to tone that down we have other things to talk about but I think root is just how this and Kagami will differentiate themselves from one another as rom coms. Thanks
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

There is a huge difference between constructive criticism and complaints about the pace, or complaints that another manga is better. Those are personal opinions that can not be discussed in a constructive manner or debated rationally. They are subjective opinions that differ from person to person. Everyone is welcome to express their opinion but repeating the same, personal complaints over and over is now doing nothing more than interrupting more constructive discussion. This is not acceptable nor is it fair to those who actually want to discuss the manga. I do not expect the problem to continue.
 

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Re: [NEW] Nisekoi by KOMI Naoshi

It looks like there are arguments about what is "slice of life."

So, I think you guys should read this one before making an argument:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=uY8700WJy_gC&pg=PA112&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false (Understanding Manga and Anime by Robin E. Brenner, read from page 112)

[mod=Hamy]This will be the last post regarding this topic matter I'll allow in this thread both sides have had their say. Any other discussions such as this please continue through PM just remember to keep your courtesy with one another. Besides in the end its up to what the author in conjunction with SJ decides to label the series rather than the fans. When the first volume comes out and whatever tags its marketed as will be the genre it'll 'officially' follow as a classification.[/mod]
 
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