One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

goldb

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Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

  • For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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  • We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

  1. Shanks v Mihawk
  2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
  3. Zoro > Luffy
  4. Zoro v Sanji
  5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
  6. Mihawk's rank within the story
  7. Law having CoC currently.
  8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

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BigBadDogg

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Huh, maybe Nami beating Arabasta Daz Bones is debateable, but she can certainly fry the likes of Ohm and burn away Zombie Ryuma.
I agree. With her smarts and lightning she can beat Arlong.
 

M3J

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The yellow part is about the parents of the princess, the one who Stelly took for a wife, not Sabo's parents.
Didn't someone correct you on that? Credit them too :>
War can't happen yet, mostly without Luffy there
War doesn't need Luffy. The Paramount War certainly didn't need Luffy to start it, it just needed him to alter the course of the future even more. Likewise, Luffy can join the war at later time or decide to rescue Sabo, Iva, and/or Dragon, which would effectively make him part of the war.


Sabo being admiral level will be bullshit. At best, that should be Dragon and maybe Iva. In any case, Sabo likely plans on causing havoc with his team, so how will they escape?
 

TrueRaiKage

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Didn't someone correct you on that? Credit them too :>

War doesn't need Luffy. The Paramount War certainly didn't need Luffy to start it, it just needed him to alter the course of the future even more. Likewise, Luffy can join the war at later time or decide to rescue Sabo, Iva, and/or Dragon, which would effectively make him part of the war.


Sabo being admiral level will be bullshit. At best, that should be Dragon and maybe Iva. In any case, Sabo likely plans on causing havoc with his team, so how will they escape?
How is Sabo not admiral level. His combat haki make him formidable. Conjoin that with his logia he clearly is at admiral level.

If we actually just set aside his abilities. He fought an admiral n is the 2nd in command of the RA.

Once again how is he not at admiral level?

He even has a scar over his eye that makes him look cool enough to be an admiral. Lol
 

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How is Sabo not admiral level. His combat haki make him formidable. Conjoin that with his logia he clearly is at admiral level.

If we actually just set aside his abilities. He fought an admiral n is the 2nd in command of the RA.

Once again how is he not at admiral level?

He even has a scar over his eye that makes him look cool enough to be an admiral. Lol
He only got the DF like weeks ago... sure, it's the Mera-Mera and stuff, but he's had it for so little time that it shouldn't really affect his performance that much.

I know it kinda does because we all know what that DF can do, but it's still a fact that he realistically can't be an expert already while using it... if he was, it would be sum bullshit/asspull, sorry.

Yeah, he did have a skirmish with Fujitora, but neither of them were fighting seriously.

Sabo might be able to hold his own against ONE Admiral, but if we're talking about a fight to the death/that goes on for 10 days, then I think he would surely lose, especially NOW where he still doesn't have full control of the DF's properties. The Mera-mera would do him more harm than good in the long run, probably.

If Sabo is Admiral level then logically so should Luffy be, and we know he currently isn't.
 

M3J

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How is Sabo not admiral level. His combat haki make him formidable. Conjoin that with his logia he clearly is at admiral level.

If we actually just set aside his abilities. He fought an admiral n is the 2nd in command of the RA.

Once again how is he not at admiral level?

He even has a scar over his eye that makes him look cool enough to be an admiral. Lol
How does that make him admiral level? it just makes him a great and solid fighter, but it doesn't mean he's admiral level. Might as well otherwise say Luffy is 3-admiral level because he fought three admirals by himself, and he fought Big Mom, so he's Yonkou level as well, and he's the captain of his crew. Nothing has implied he's at an admiral level, and perhaps he is, but that's a big perhaps. Two admirals went head to head against each other and fought for over a day, while one of those admiral took hits from Whitebeard and still kept fighting.



Did Garp just badmouth the Tenryuubito? Holy shit, this dude is the real hard-boiled man, Franky and Senor Pink combined are nothing!
 

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How does that make him admiral level? it just makes him a great and solid fighter, but it doesn't mean he's admiral level. Might as well otherwise say Luffy is 3-admiral level because he fought three admirals by himself, and he fought Big Mom, so he's Yonkou level as well, and he's the captain of his crew. Nothing has implied he's at an admiral level, and perhaps he is, but that's a big perhaps. Two admirals went head to head against each other and fought for over a day, while one of those admiral took hits from Whitebeard and still kept fighting.



Did Garp just badmouth the Tenryuubito? Holy shit, this dude is the real hard-boiled man, Franky and Senor Pink combined are nothing!
@Eigengrau & @M3J

I'm not sure how or when we started to compare Sabo to Luffy. Nor will I agree on that comparison either.

Sabo has been the first to demonstrate an entire self-defense system utilizing haki. He has also been on of the first to demonstrate a control of CoA we have yet to see matched. Less we forget he has destroyed an entire stadium with just his haki.
He nor Ace were at Luffys level. And of the three brothers Sabo has had more training than all. As examples I would like to offer what we already know.
1. Ace & Luffy were captains who journied off on their own and grew from experiences.
2. Sabo has been raised and trained by an organized military resistance.

Not saying Luffy is Yonko or Admiral level I'm saying that the 2nd in command of THE REVOLUTIONARY ARMY is admiral level. With or without the mera mera no mi. He had admiral level skills prior to being a DF user. He's clearly more than a fighter he's the 2nd in command of the RA.

Also GARP was in classic Monkey D. form. The lack of care or respect for what's going on around him is hilarious.
 

Core D. Roy

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How is Sabo not admiral level. His combat haki make him formidable. Conjoin that with his logia he clearly is at admiral level.

If we actually just set aside his abilities. He fought an admiral n is the 2nd in command of the RA.

Once again how is he not at admiral level?

He even has a scar over his eye that makes him look cool enough to be an admiral. Lol
Just based on evidence, Sabo is not Admiral level. However he's probably had time to adjust to the Mero Mero fruit and incorporated into his normal style better. The fact he used it so effectively just after getting it and the fact that Coby can do what he can do now shows that it's not impossible for him to be at Admiral level. It is pretty unlikely though.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Also GARP was in classic Monkey D. form. The lack of care or respect for what's going on around him is hilarious.
I didn't realize how much I missed Garp. I can't wait to see what role he plays in the Reverie. The entire world's focus is now not only on his son, but his grandson as well. I'm looking forward to reveals about the Will of D. and what that name actually means. The tenryuubito will have to make a defense for their inevitable clash with the pro-SH leaders.
 

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Just based on evidence, Sabo is not Admiral level. However he's probably had time to adjust to the Mero Mero fruit and incorporated into his normal style better. The fact he used it so effectively just after getting it and the fact that Coby can do what he can do now shows that it's not impossible for him to be at Admiral level. It is pretty unlikely though.
Since we’ve only seen a handful of pages of Sabo fighting, not that it wasn’t AWESOME (I mean Dragon Claw taijutsu?!?! Hell yeah bitches!!) but it’s nothing we haven’t seen Luffy do and if Luffy is said to be under ‘Admiral’ level then by comparison neither is Sabo. Having said that I have a feeling that Sabo is stronger than Luffy for two reasons.:
1. As kids Sabo and Ace were ALWAYS stronger than Luffy. (Not that it is necessarily going to stay true at this point in their lives)
2. Sabo was trained by the best of the RA, and Dragon himself!! Who was said to be the most dangerous person on the planet. (If I remember right)
I didn't realize how much I missed Garp. I can't wait to see what role he plays in the Reverie. The entire world's focus is now not only on his son, but his grandson as well. I'm looking forward to reveals about the Will of D. and what that name actually means. The tenryuubito will have to make a defense for their inevitable clash with the pro-SH leaders.
Garp is someone else I really wanna see go all out! It seems to me that everyone in the marines is afraid of him, as far as battle prowess anyway. I think this is shown by his lack of care when it comes to his mouth diarrhea and talking shit on the WG and the “celestial dragons. Didn’t they say once that he could have been an admiral but chose not to be? If that’s true then he would be the first person of massive fighting ability, other than Raleigh, without a devil fruit ability. I mean being as strong as Akainu or Aokiji, even Hirutora!, without a devil fruit is just insane!!
 

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@Eigengrau & @M3J

I'm not sure how or when we started to compare Sabo to Luffy. Nor will I agree on that comparison either.

Sabo has been the first to demonstrate an entire self-defense system utilizing haki. He has also been on of the first to demonstrate a control of CoA we have yet to see matched. Less we forget he has destroyed an entire stadium with just his haki.
He nor Ace were at Luffys level. And of the three brothers Sabo has had more training than all. As examples I would like to offer what we already know.
1. Ace & Luffy were captains who journied off on their own and grew from experiences.
2. Sabo has been raised and trained by an organized military resistance.

Not saying Luffy is Yonko or Admiral level I'm saying that the 2nd in command of THE REVOLUTIONARY ARMY is admiral level. With or without the mera mera no mi. He had admiral level skills prior to being a DF user. He's clearly more than a fighter he's the 2nd in command of the RA.
So what if he destroyed an entire stadium? Luffy did roughly the same (if not more) when he ko'ed Doflamingo for good.

Yes, I have no doubt that Sabo had a more strict training/upbringing under Dragon, but am I supposed to believe that Sabo has fought incredible adversaries and been near death just like Luffy has numerous times, which ultimately is what makes a character grow stronger each and every time?

I don't know about that... Sabo seems to be a little too cocky and possessed by the RA ideology a little too much.

Yeah, he's strong, but not admiral-level strong. He might be able to withstand an Admiral's attacks and shit, but if we're talking a fight to the death/until there's one clear victor then I have no doubt that Sabo (by himself) would lose.

He definitely has the power to match the Admirals, but currently he simply cannot truly be at their level, it's impossible.
 

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Due to this, I really do not think Sabo is as strong as an Admiral. Fujitora was stalling. It seems evident going by Fujitora's comment. He didn't want to stop Sabo so that the Marines could have an excuse to not intervene saying he was held back by the RA for the purpose of this ploy he was scheming, so that after Luffy defeated Joker, he could make the Navy look bad for making use of Shichibukai whom they're never ever able to control and give reason at the Reverie why this system should be abolished.
Maynard knowing how powerful the Admirals are finds it ridiculous that Sabo was really able to stop Fujitora which is why Maynard remembers Fujitora saying "does the WG think itself to be god?" because he believes Fujitora has an agenda and is taking advantage of the situation.

His attitude is almost uncaring here telling Sabo "all they'll see is I couldn't get past", but contrast this to when he fights Luffy, we see how he's willing to enforce the fact that he really is an Admiral whom are regarded as monsters.
 

Hrathgrath

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Lol, I've always admitted I'm wrong when I know I am. I've said it many times before, if there's evidence for anything that demands I change my belief or opinion on anything, it has to be accepted assuming one's goal is the actual truth.
Hehe I know you do, I was just poking fun at the fact that you are very defensive of your theories. You know you’re muh boy!
I like where that's going but how will we explains the fasting?..... I know trees hibernate but three years is to long. But tree tree no mi is sexy and a good fit for destruction.
So odd how he can fast for 3 years. Hope we get more insight into this.
Indeed, it's hard to believe he's not eaten in 3 years. While one could excuse this and accept it as possible being that this is a magical world, it still does sound farfetched.

Maybe he's being literal. Eating is done with the mouth, perhaps, he doesn't sustain himself via ingesting with the mouth, but via other routes such as intravenous sustenance; people who literally can't eat can get fed that way.

He even talks about eating being a pain in the ass, so it appears as though he literally hates eating, but being a womaniser supposedly, he'd make exceptions.

And googled this, it's about a person who literally hates to eat: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/lif...ting-is-just-aboutsustenance/article27936872/
If he’s a tree fruit user then it’s entirely feasible that he’s “eating” through photosynthesis. All plants need to create energy is co2 water and sunlight. There was a Cosmos episode that shows how the process works in a really neat way.
So what if he destroyed an entire stadium? Luffy did roughly the same (if not more) when he ko'ed Doflamingo for good.

Yes, I have no doubt that Sabo had a more strict training/upbringing under Dragon, but am I supposed to believe that Sabo has fought incredible adversaries and been near death just like Luffy has numerous times, which ultimately is what makes a character grow stronger each and every time?

I don't know about that... Sabo seems to be a little too cocky and possessed by the RA ideology a little too much.

Yeah, he's strong, but not admiral-level strong. He might be able to withstand an Admiral's attacks and shit, but if we're talking a fight to the death/until there's one clear victor then I have no doubt that Sabo (by himself) would lose.

He definitely has the power to match the Admirals, but currently he simply cannot truly be at their level, it's impossible.
At this point it’s really just a matter of feeling, cause we haven’t seen him fight against someone that we can gauge strength. I mean he fought Fujitora, but the fight may have been “staged” or whatever, and against Burgess we haven’t seen burgess fight anyone else worth gauging his strength properly either. I believe he is but that’s just a feeling. *shrug*
 

M3J

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@Eigengrau & @M3J

I'm not sure how or when we started to compare Sabo to Luffy. Nor will I agree on that comparison either.

Sabo has been the first to demonstrate an entire self-defense system utilizing haki. He has also been on of the first to demonstrate a control of CoA we have yet to see matched. Less we forget he has destroyed an entire stadium with just his haki.
He nor Ace were at Luffys level. And of the three brothers Sabo has had more training than all. As examples I would like to offer what we already know.
1. Ace & Luffy were captains who journied off on their own and grew from experiences.
2. Sabo has been raised and trained by an organized military resistance.

Not saying Luffy is Yonko or Admiral level I'm saying that the 2nd in command of THE REVOLUTIONARY ARMY is admiral level. With or without the mera mera no mi. He had admiral level skills prior to being a DF user. He's clearly more than a fighter he's the 2nd in command of the RA.

Also GARP was in classic Monkey D. form. The lack of care or respect for what's going on around him is hilarious.
That really doesn't indicate that Sabo is on an admiral's level.

I'm giving you Luffy as an example of why we shouldn't believe Sabo is admiral level just because he could fight Fujitora without losing or is the second in command of the Revolutionary Army, especially when Iva was locked up in Impel Down. Just pointing out the holes in your points.
1. As kids Sabo and Ace were ALWAYS stronger than Luffy. (Not that it is necessarily going to stay true at this point in their lives)
To be fair, this was Luffy when he didn't have any sort of mastery over his rubber abilities. Didn't he knock himself out of the fight when his gomu gomu no bullet missed Ace, rebounded, and spun him around dizzy? I highly doubt Luffy's fights as a gomu gomu no kid indicate how strong he was when he couldn't use his powers properly.
Lol, I've always admitted I'm wrong when I know I am. I've said it many times before, if there's evidence for anything that demands I change my belief or opinion on anything, it has to be accepted assuming one's goal is the actual truth.
I still remember when you went from claiming Luffy will beat Big Mom to realizing he stands no chance as he is now. That's growth right there.
 

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I still remember when you went from claiming Luffy will beat Big Mom to realizing he stands no chance as he is now. That's growth right there.
I still wouldn't say it was impossible for him. Katakuri was unbeaten for hours until he fought Gear 4th for maybe 40 minutes and it's only in the last 20 minutes he was getting hit that led to his defeat. We never really got to to see how Big Mom would react to clean hits from Gear 4th and his most basic attack was tanked with Armament. If anything, I'd say he doesn't lack strength, maybe experience. If he also had to get stronger to defeat Big Mom like he did Katakuri, I'm certain he would. I always give the protagonist the benefit of the doubt and more so after what Fujitora said.

This arc we're going to see Luffy take on Kaido. He might lose the initial clashes, but whatever has to happen for him to be victorious, I think he'll get it. 23/24 days have gone by and he's already going to be taking on Kaido soon. If he has to win, he'll win. In this case with Big Mom, Oda doesn't want her defeated yet which is why the arc panned out the way it did.
 

I Am Atomic

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I still wouldn't say it was impossible for him. Katakuri was unbeaten for hours until he fought Gear 4th for maybe 40 minutes and it's only in the last 20 minutes he was getting hit that led to his defeat. We never really got to to see how Big Mom would react to clean hits from Gear 4th and his most basic attack was tanked with Armament. If anything, I'd say he doesn't lack strength, maybe experience. If he also had to get stronger to defeat Big Mom like he did Katakuri, I'm certain he would. I always give the protagonist the benefit of the doubt and more so after what Fujitora said.

This arc we're going to see Luffy take on Kaido. He might lose the initial clashes, but whatever has to happen for him to be victorious, I think he'll get it. 23/24 days have gone by and he's already going to be taking on Kaido soon. If he has to win, he'll win. In this case with Big Mom, Oda doesn't want her defeated yet which is why the arc panned out the way it did.
Wow, you still believe that Luffy could have defeated BM in WCI? I think you are taking Fujitora's words too literally.

Luffy defeated Joker and Cracker barely with help. Defeated Katakuri after obtaining a major power up. And I remember that you believed that Luffy was capable of defeating BM even before the power up. Seriously man, your judgement of Luffy's strength is way over the top.

Oda has shown multiple manga panels where it is stated that Luffy couldn't beat BM with the "excuse" Sanji rescue operation so no fight. It is a subtle way of saying Luffy cannot defeat BM.

Katakuri asked Luffy if he is coming back to defeat BM and he replies with a confirmation. Another hint that Luffy couldn't take on BM.

Oda in his interview said that he still doesn't know how Luffy will take on Kaido and defeat him. Since Yonko's are near equal in power, Oda never planned on Luffy taking on BM that soon.

About the chapter

It was a great chapter to read. Loved seeing Garp. Now we know where Luffy's no fucks given attitude comes from.

Shirahoshi looked very nice in this chapter but I feel like she is asking to be kidnapped. She stands out like sore thumb. Morgan's fell in love. Morgan's: Big News BOOBS!

Morley is doing a shit job at hiding if Stelly spotted him, but none of the strong people on board did (convenience).

The hype for Green Bull is real. Forget about fasting, his no fucks given attitude is gold. I feel sorry for Akainu. He already has 2 monsters under him which gives no fucks to his direct orders. Kizaru might be too lazy to even listen. Well at least we know he is a male now. About his DF, I have seen people say it has something to do with photosynthesis but I think Oda is setting this scenario up so he can catch us by surprise.
 

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Wow, you still believe that Luffy could have defeated BM in WCI? I think you are taking Fujitora's words too literally.
How else is it meant to be taken? As a lie? He said he has the strength, what about that is apparently metaphorical?

Luffy defeated Joker and Cracker barely with help. Defeated Katakuri after obtaining a major power up. And I remember that you believed that Luffy was capable of defeating BM even before the power up. Seriously man, your judgement of Luffy's strength is way over the top.
Doesn't matter if he had help, it wasn't a straight up brawl, it was a very tactical battle.
  • If you can't touch your opponent, you can't hit them.
  • If you can't hit your opponent, you can't beat them.
Joker and Cracker's abilities makes it very difficult to get to their body, therefore, damaging them is difficult.

Do you know how long it took for Luffy to get to Cracker's body? 11 hours till his attempt was successful. How long did it take to hit Big Mom? Not even a minute in attempt to hit her because her ability is not like Joker's or Cracker's.

If anything, your lack of context is crippling your judgement.

Oda has shown multiple manga panels where it is stated that Luffy couldn't beat BM with the "excuse" Sanji rescue operation so no fight. It is a subtle way of saying Luffy cannot defeat BM.
Nope, that wasn't the excuse, that was the mission.

There's no where in that arc where it was stated that Luffy couldn't beat Big Mom. Go ahead and provide the evidence if you will, I'll patiently wait.



Then there's the fact he hadn't rested for roughly 49 hours, so barely any energy to really fight Big Mom meaning their clash wasn't truly representative of his strength which is why after he used Gear 4th for just a second, he deflated. He wasn't at all in top form.

Katakuri asked Luffy if he is coming back to defeat BM and he replies with a confirmation. Another hint that Luffy couldn't take on BM.
Actually, you took it out of context. The reason Katakuri also asked was because:
  • ...the SHs said they were going to meet at 1am and leave assuming you've not forgotten that. Maybe you forgot it was literally 1am at that point.
Of course the only thing he can do is come back later if his goal wasn't to defeat Big Mom.

Maybe you're not aware that the entire reason it was an assassination attempt was because they lacked the numbers to suppress Big Mom's military because they lacked numbers. If you can't suppress the military, there's absolutely no chance to challenge the Emperor realistically. And you're still forgetting Luffy had been fighting, running and keeping busy for 49 hours.

Oda in his interview said that he still doesn't know how Luffy will take on Kaido and defeat him. Since Yonko's are near equal in power, Oda never planned on Luffy taking on BM that soon.
Actually, that's incorrect. What Oda actually said was:


He never said he doesn't know how Luffy will defeat the Emperors, he said he doesn't know how Luffy will defeat Kaido (not the Yonko), the strongest creature whom even Big Mom has been unable to defeat...
More so when Big Mom distinguishes him as that thing implying she acknowledges his strength.

Pure assumption the Emperors are equal in strength when Big Mom has failed to defeat Kaido as she herself stated.

Also, the issue with Kaido is not defeating him, the issue is with him being defeated in a way that the audience will be satisfied... just look at the reception to Katakuri's defeat, some people are still crying about that.

Edit: Fixed Calculations.
 
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How else is it meant to be taken? As a lie? He said he has the strength, what about that is apparently metaphorical?
You could interpret it as him saying that Luffy do have the strength to fight the admirals and emperor's instead of running but it doesn't say he could defeat them. The strength required to defeat is end of series stuff. I mean that is how Shonen works.
Doesn't matter if he had help, it wasn't a straight up brawl, it was a very tactical battle.
  • If you can't touch your opponent, you can't hit them.
  • If you can't hit your opponent, you can't beat them.
Joker and Cracker's abilities makes it very difficult to get to their body, therefore, damaging them is difficult.

Do you know how long it took for Luffy to get to Cracker's body? 11 hours till his attempt was successful. How long did it take to hit Big Mom? Not even a minute in attempt to hit her because her ability is not like Joker's or Cracker's.

If anything, your lack of context is crippling your judgement.
Just because they avoided being hit means they are weaker than Luffy? Mohammed Ali dodged a lot of hits from other boxers, so in your opinion he should have went for a straight up brawl? Otherwise he is weaker than others even though he won.
Imagine if it is a game. Cracker fights like a necromancer and Big Mom fights like a warrior+tank. Now you say that Cracker is weak af because he is hiding behind his soldiers and has weak endurance? How else is he supposed to fight. Charge in? This is why what you say makes no sense.
Of course the only thing he can do is come back later if his goal wasn't to defeat Big Mom.
His goal wasn't to fight Katakuri either, but he did anyway.
He never said he doesn't know how Luffy will defeat the Emperors, he said he doesn't know how Luffy will defeat Kaido (not the Yonko),
This is what I said as well. I repeat Oda said he doesn't know how Luffy will defeat Kaido. Furthermore I think Yonko's are equal in power and that is why they are in a stalemate.
More so when Big Mom distinguishes him as that thing implying she acknowledges his strength.
Because BM acknowledged his strength made her weaker than Kaido? Kaido called her the old hag, he was acknowledging her strength as well. So according to your logic BM is stronger than Kaido? Right?
Pure assumption the Emperors are equal in strength when Big Mom has failed to defeat Kaido as she herself stated.
Now you are referring outside the context. She said that if Lola married Loki she could have the power to destroy all three of the emperor's and become PK. But that doesn't mean she is weaker than them now. It just means that they are in a stalemate.
when Big Mom has failed to defeat Kaido as she herself stated.
When did she state this? I don't remember.
Also, the issue with Kaido is not defeating him, the issue is with him being defeated in a way that the audience will be satisfied... just look at the reception to Katakuri's defeat, some people are still crying about that.
It's the same thing man. The author's job is to entertain their audience. With intro Kaido had he had to find a suitable method for Luffy to defeat him.
 

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Just because they avoided being hit means they are weaker than Luffy? Mohammed Ali dodged a lot of hits from other boxers, so in your opinion he should have went for a straight up brawl? Otherwise he is weaker than others even though he won.
Imagine if it is a game. Cracker fights like a necromancer and Big Mom fights like a warrior+tank. Now you say that Cracker is weak af because he is hiding behind his soldiers and has weak endurance? How else is he supposed to fight. Charge in? This is why what you say makes no sense.
Poor logic.
  • Didn't say Cracker was weak, that's a fallacy, I said he was hard to touch and I never said being difficult to touch is a sign of weakness. Huge difference you didn't make distinction of.
Strength is defined by the level of power that can be output.

Weevil is said to have strength comparable to Whitebeard in his youth, it means he's as strong as Whitebeard. Not being able to hit the opponent is a different matter that's irrelevant in terms of strength. That's fighting prowess and/or limitations which is not the argument here.

Mohammad Ali dodging attacks isn't proof he was weak, it only proves he can dodge. However, being the greatest boxer of all time isn't determined by how hard one can hit, but how well one can box as it's a science as is usually stated. George Foreman is easily much more powerful than Ali, doesn't mean he was the better boxer. Try to learn that distinction.

Only thing I really said was Joker and Cracker were opponents whose abilities made them difficult to be reached. Yet, you have to twist that into me claiming they're weak? Pretty misleading and deceptive thing to say.

His goal wasn't to fight Katakuri either, but he did anyway.
Context. It was essential to their escape, so it had to be done. Big Mom wasn't a necessity because of the state she was in and the fact he already had it in mind that she wasn't supposed to be defeated here. You're seemingly not able to distinguish between what's necessary and what isn't.

More so with the fact Luffy had been fatigued due to running around for 49 hours, it's unreasonable to intend to defeat an Emperor as he's not in peak form. Katakuri on the other hand is nowhere as powerful as Big Mom. Even so, if Oda wanted Big Mom defeated here, easily could be done, he's the protagonist.

This is what I said as well. I repeat Oda said he doesn't know how Luffy will defeat Kaido. Furthermore I think Yonko's are equal in power and that is why they are in a stalemate.
You think, but you can't prove.

Oda didn't say the Emperors, he said Kaido specifically.

They're also not equal in physical strength or fight prowess, they're only equal in Military power which is why:
  1. Blackbeard is increasing military power by acquiring DFs.
  2. Kaido is acquiring Zoans.
  3. Big Mom was acquiring Germa or Giants.

Because BM acknowledged his strength made her weaker than Kaido? Kaido called her the old hag, he was acknowledging her strength as well. So according to your logic BM is stronger than Kaido? Right?
Actually, you've made an error here.

Kaido called her an old hag, that's not a sign of acknowledgement or reference to her strength.



In contrast, Big Mom said you'll never be able to beat that thing which is clearly a reference to his strength and more so since she herself has been unable to defeat him as she said, so yes, it implies Big Mom is weaker than Kaido.

There's evidence insinuating Kaido being stronger than Big Mom, not the other way round.

So, it's more of a case of you not understanding the rationale. Being called an Old Hag is in no shape or form a statement that insinuates respecting one's strength. Calling her an Old Hag is simply implying she's an Old Hag to him or someone whom he despises.

Now you are referring outside the context. She said that if Lola married Loki she could have the power to destroy all three of the emperor's and become PK. But that doesn't mean she is weaker than them now. It just means that they are in a stalemate.
She said she'd have been able to defeat Whitebeard who was the strongest Pirate that no one was able to defeat besides Roger, so your point here is moot. A stalemate doesn't necessarily imply equality in terms of individual strength; context.

Your claim suggests she was on par with Whitebeard which is clearly false. The fact that she needed this Army to even defeat Whitebeard suggests she needs them not just to boost her military, but to also give her the chance to defeat Whitebeard too. So, just because she needs to boost her military doesn't mean she's as strong as Kaido, that's a baseless assumption.

When did she state this? I don't remember.
Inability to destroy implies she's unable to do so and more so with the context she makes reference to Kaido himself being a thing. Things do not need be explicitly stated to be true.

It's the same thing man. The author's job is to entertain their audience. With intro Kaido had he had to find a suitable method for Luffy to defeat him.
Irrelevant point. It was specific to Kaido, not to the Emperors. As Oda said, he said when he introduced Kaido, he didn't know how Luffy will beat him in a satisfactory manner because of how he was introduced. Big Mom wasn't introduced like Kaido, so your point is moot. This wasn't said about Big Mom.

The really absurd thing is how you can state what Fujitora said isn't literal. Go ahead and break it down. Apparently, it's metaphorical.
 
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It is obvious that Yonkos are in a stalemate because none of them have what it takes to beat the others. @Hannibal Psyche You misunderstood Big Mom's words. If Lola married and BM got the giants in her army she would have been able to defeat others, that extra military power of having giants would allow her to have an advantage over other Yonkos. Since she didn't acquire that extra power, we are in the status quo, a stalemate. That absolutely doesn't mean she is weaker than any of them. All other Yonkos are more or less in the same position, waiting and powering up to get a significant advantage before they make their move.
We know Kaido is powering up his army with devil fruits, same with Blackbeard, we don't know why Shanks is waiting. Whitebeard might have had an edge over others but he wasn't interested in the treasure nor the title.

Strengths and weaknesses. I would like to point out that this is not just about physical strength. Take Katakuri for example. What is his biggest strength? It is not his physical strength (raw power), which he has more than enough of. His greatest strength is his CoO.

It is hard to believe that Luffy (a rookie) would be able to beat these end game, highest tear of opponents. Giving too much credit to Fujitora's words while it's obvious that he cant take on neither Admirals nor Yonkos. In One Piece, old characters in a position of power, are monsters in their own league. Luffy is still light years away from that league. WCI was a rescue mission for a reason, Luffy didn't take BM on because it was too soon for him to take on an Emperor and win. We saw how much he struggled against 2 commanders, we saw that Admiral tier fights for 10 days to reach the conclusion, we saw that Luffy is not able to do such things. We saw that his Gear 4 doesn't last long.
King Kong Gun might be powerful but its nothing that Yonko cant match or endure. Luffy first has to get to Admiral level and then a 1vs1 with Yonko would be plausible. Since Kaido is referred to as strongest creature alive it will be interesting to see how Oda plans to sell that win. In my opinion, Luffy will have a lot of help from other supernovas. He probably never will be strong enough to take on Yonkos 1vs1.
 

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How else is it meant to be taken? As a lie? He said he has the strength, what about that is apparently metaphorical?



Doesn't matter if he had help, it wasn't a straight up brawl, it was a very tactical battle.
  • If you can't touch your opponent, you can't hit them.
  • If you can't hit your opponent, you can't beat them.
Joker and Cracker's abilities makes it very difficult to get to their body, therefore, damaging them is difficult.

Do you know how long it took for Luffy to get to Cracker's body? 11 hours till his attempt was successful. How long did it take to hit Big Mom? Not even a minute in attempt to hit her because her ability is not like Joker's or Cracker's.

If anything, your lack of context is crippling your judgement.



Nope, that wasn't the excuse, that was the mission.

There's no where in that arc where it was stated that Luffy couldn't beat Big Mom. Go ahead and provide the evidence if you will, I'll patiently wait.



Then there's the fact he hadn't rested for roughly 49 hours, so barely any energy to really fight Big Mom meaning their clash wasn't truly representative of his strength which is why after he used Gear 4th for just a second, he deflated. He wasn't at all in top form.



Actually, you took it out of context. The reason Katakuri also asked was because:
  • ...the SHs said they were going to meet at 1am and leave assuming you've not forgotten that. Maybe you forgot it was literally 1am at that point.
Of course the only thing he can do is come back later if his goal wasn't to defeat Big Mom.

Maybe you're not aware that the entire reason it was an assassination attempt was because they lacked the numbers to suppress Big Mom's military because they lacked numbers. If you can't suppress the military, there's absolutely no chance to challenge the Emperor realistically. And you're still forgetting Luffy had been fighting, running and keeping busy for 49 hours.



Actually, that's incorrect. What Oda actually said was:


He never said he doesn't know how Luffy will defeat the Emperors, he said he doesn't know how Luffy will defeat Kaido (not the Yonko), the strongest creature whom even Big Mom has been unable to defeat...
More so when Big Mom distinguishes him as that thing implying she acknowledges his strength.

Pure assumption the Emperors are equal in strength when Big Mom has failed to defeat Kaido as she herself stated.

Also, the issue with Kaido is not defeating him, the issue is with him being defeated in a way that the audience will be satisfied... just look at the reception to Katakuri's defeat, some people are still crying about that.

Edit: Fixed Calculations.
I think you're on point.

Luffy isn't lacking in strength, he's at a level where he can stand and fight if he wants to, and also at a level where he can (without doubt) fancy his chances of coming out on top.
I imagine taking direct hits from luffy isn't good for her, hence the need to defend with the strongest known armament haki design pattern (and it wasn't even a KKG she was defending against), which means luffy's pretty powerful and smart enough to come up with ideas but inexperienced in dealing with non-brawlers. It's not the case with Bigmom.

As long as both parties gives their best to hurt each other, Bigmom would definitely land clean hits on luffy, and Luffy would definitely land clean hits on Bigmom. This is the best case scenario for luffy, and apparently, that was why he won against katakuri. Whenever katakuri was purely defending, it was impossible to land hits on him, and, whenever Luffy was purely defending, not all of katakuri's hits landed, the fight continued endlessly with no clear winner till both players reached breaking point.

The moment they both threw away defense and completely went for offense, Luffy landed so many hits that katakuri didn't defend with haki, likewise katakuri on Luffy.

So, should he take on bigmom, he'll definitely look battered against her, and Bigmom would also look battered against him (especially when the fight gets to the point where both parties keep hitting each other at the same time (key) without defending with haki, as was the case with katakuri).

She isn't kaido, who in my opinion won't bother using haki because his skin is made of 'I don't know what', and Oda has already hinted at gear 4 being strong enough to hurt her, hence the need for her to defend with the flamy armament haki design pattern (the same kind of haki design luffy uses only in gear4).

Lets not forget,

Luffy's KKG was able to almost destroy dressrosa after it had cancelled out doflamingo's most powerful attack, as in, if doffy's highest 'raw power' didn't reduce the impact of Luffy's punch, then he probably would've sank dressrosa (or divided it into smaller islands), this is what Luffy is truely capable of.

Similar level of destruction could be seen when Whitebeared landed "THE" attack on Akainu during the marineford war.
In Luffy's case, Doflamingo countered with raw power, but Luffy's raw power not only overcame it BUT still destroyed the island in similar ways as whitebeared's attack. It only means Fujitora wasn't joking (at all) when he made that statement about Luffy's strength. It's because of this that I think you're on point here, you definitely are.
Now, with his armament getting stronger, he should be able to compress more air in gear 4 inorder to increase his output force (especially when throwing a KKG or the lesser variations)
He definitely isn't lacking in strength, it's Inexperience that's holding back our luffy.
With experiences from cracker and Katakuri, and with his now acquired near future sight, he should be able to take on non brawlers as well (as they don't come much different from cracker or katakuri or doffy OR combined).
 

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I think you're on point.

Luffy isn't lacking in strength, he's at a level where he can stand and fight if he wants to, and also at a level where he can (without doubt) fancy his chances of coming out on top.
I imagine taking direct hits from luffy isn't good for her, hence the need to defend with the strongest known armament haki design pattern (and it wasn't even a KKG she was defending against), which means luffy's pretty powerful and smart enough to come up with ideas but inexperienced in dealing with non-brawlers. It's not the case with Bigmom.

As long as both parties gives their best to hurt each other, Bigmom would definitely land clean hits on luffy, and Luffy would definitely land clean hits on Bigmom. This is the best case scenario for luffy, and apparently, that was why he won against katakuri. Whenever katakuri was purely defending, it was impossible to land hits on him, and, whenever Luffy was purely defending, not all of katakuri's hits landed, the fight continued endlessly with no clear winner till both players reached breaking point.

The moment they both threw away defense and completely went for offense, Luffy landed so many hits that katakuri didn't defend with haki, likewise katakuri on Luffy.

So, should he take on bigmom, he'll definitely look battered against her, and Bigmom would also look battered against him (especially when the fight gets to the point where both parties keep hitting each other at the same time (key) without defending with haki, as was the case with katakuri).

She isn't kaido, who in my opinion won't bother using haki because his skin is made of 'I don't know what', and Oda has already hinted at gear 4 being strong enough to hurt her, hence the need for her to defend with the flamy armament haki design pattern (the same kind of haki design luffy uses only in gear4).

Lets not forget,

Luffy's KKG was able to almost destroy dressrosa after it had cancelled out doflamingo's most powerful attack, as in, if doffy's highest 'raw power' didn't reduce the impact of Luffy's punch, then he probably would've sank dressrosa (or divided it into smaller islands), this is what Luffy is truely capable of.

Similar level of destruction could be seen when Whitebeared landed "THE" attack on Akainu during the marineford war.
In Luffy's case, Doflamingo countered with raw power, but Luffy's raw power not only overcame it BUT still destroyed the island in similar ways as whitebeared's attack. It only means Fujitora wasn't joking (at all) when he made that statement about Luffy's strength. It's because of this that I think you're on point here, you definitely are.
Now, with his armament getting stronger, he should be able to compress more air in gear 4 inorder to increase his output force (especially when throwing a KKG or the lesser variations)
He definitely isn't lacking in strength, it's Inexperience that's holding back our luffy.
With experiences from cracker and Katakuri, and with his now acquired near future sight, he should be able to take on non brawlers as well (as they don't come much different from cracker or katakuri or doffy OR combined).
Exactly. Luffy had gone through approximately 50 hours of non-stop activity from fighting, running, more fighting, being imprisoned, fighting, running with literally no chance to rest and I don't think it's reasonable to make out like Luffy's is inferior. He was against one of the most powerful characters in the series in the worst shape possible.

As you said, his raw strength is no joke. If we objectively wanted to ascertain that Luffy was simply too weak to hurt Big Mom, then:
  1. If Big Mom took a King Kong Gun punch and made light work of it, that would definitely suggest Luffy is too weak, she blocked his most basic attack with Hardening which speaks of the strength of Gear 4th.
  2. Even Rob Lucci who defended Gear 2nd attacks got defeated by Gear 2nd attacks when they hit, and I don't doubt Gear 4th wouldn't be the same against Big Mom or any other Emperor.
It's premature to claim Luffy unable to take on the Emperors when we haven't seen Luffy fight against an Emperor to the best of his potential. He's at this point only had a skirmish.

One could even try to make out like Katakuri was simply stronger than Luffy, would be hard to even accept that because Luffy wasn't fresh, 49 hours of activity. Then one has to take into account that if Katakuri's Observation Haki wasn't so great allowing him to avoid all of Luffy's attacks, then Luffy could possibly have finished that fight within an hour.

It's only sensible to always give the protagonist the benefit of the doubt more so when the story is so Luffycentric. I don't get how the assessment and opinion of an Admiral who is 1 of the strongest characters in the story can be taken lightly.
 
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