One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[M3J]

I still wouldn't say it was impossible for him. Katakuri was unbeaten for hours until he fought Gear 4th for maybe 40 minutes and it's only in the last 20 minutes he was getting hit that led to his defeat. We never really got to to see how Big Mom would react to clean hits from Gear 4th and his most basic attack was tanked with Armament. If anything, I'd say he doesn't lack strength, maybe experience. If he also had to get stronger to defeat Big Mom like he did Katakuri, I'm certain he would. I always give the protagonist the benefit of the doubt and more so after what Fujitora said.

This arc we're going to see Luffy take on Kaido. He might lose the initial clashes, but whatever has to happen for him to be victorious, I think he'll get it. 23/24 days have gone by and he's already going to be taking on Kaido soon. If he has to win, he'll win. In this case with Big Mom, Oda doesn't want her defeated yet which is why the arc panned out the way it did.

Big Mom did take two hits from Luffy, once with Sanji and once in Gear 4, and she didn't seem phased at all, even though she did defend with haki against the Gear 4 punch. Luffy definitely lacks the strength to beat Big Mom, otherwise she would have felt something from his attack.

Fujitora saying that doesn't mean much to me other than what HE thinks about Luffy, it's what we see that's important. Luffy couldn't hurt Big Mom, had difficulty beating Katakuri and Cracker, and needed two rounds to beat Doflamingo (although probably because he wasn't going all out before he used up his haki).

Kaidou has to go down either way this arc. It can be Luffy getting help from others, unless Luffy gets significantly strong enough to hurt even Kaidou. This is the guy who fell from a great height and still got up like it was nothing, and I can't imagine anyone else but Big Mom and probably Luffy surviving that.

Katakuri asked Luffy if he is coming back to defeat BM and he replies with a confirmation. Another hint that Luffy couldn't take on BM.

How is that a hint though? Luffy prioritized getting out of there as soon as possible, he knew taking on Big Mom and her entire army with just five or six people would take too long, if not end in a loss. There were many clear proof that he couldn't take on Big Mom, but this isn't a hint of anything but Luffy being smarter, other than wanting to land at least one punch on Big Mom.

It will create an imbalance if the Shichibukai system be abolished, no?

--- Double Post Merged, May 27, 2018, Original Post Date: May 27, 2018 ---

My idea for the new creation was that Dr. Vegapunk was able to create robots with the ability to consume devil fruits.

That's debatable because Jinbei did state that the Marines under Akainu's command have gotten much stronger. And on top of that, if Vegapunk's work is hyped the way Fujitora just hyped it, then they'd be as strong as or stronger than most of the shichibukai.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Big Mom did take two hits from Luffy, once with Sanji and once in Gear 4, and she didn't seem phased at all, even though she did defend with haki against the Gear 4 punch. Luffy definitely lacks the strength to beat Big Mom, otherwise she would have felt something from his attack.

Fujitora saying that doesn't mean much to me other than what HE thinks about Luffy, it's what we see that's important. Luffy couldn't hurt Big Mom, had difficulty beating Katakuri and Cracker, and needed two rounds to beat Doflamingo (although probably because he wasn't going all out before he used up his haki).

Kaidou has to go down either way this arc. It can be Luffy getting help from others, unless Luffy gets significantly strong enough to hurt even Kaidou. This is the guy who fell from a great height and still got up like it was nothing, and I can't imagine anyone else but Big Mom and probably Luffy surviving that.

That was a Gear 3rd attack, not a Gear 4th, so that attack isn't really evident or showcasing Luffy's true strength. It would be like claiming that Sanji's kick on Oven which wasn't a Diable Jambe is proof that's the best his attack could do to Oven is mildly hurt him and I know you wouldn't believe that. Just like a kick void of Diable Jambe isn't evident of Sanji's true strength and power, neither is Gear 3rd.

It's the Gear 4th attack that is relevant and she had to block it with Hardened Armament which says something about the strength of a basic Gear 4th attack.

It's impossible to say he lacks the strength when:

1. He hadn't rested for 50 hours because he was running and fighting the entire time meaning he was in poor condition.
2. He only had stamina for 1 Gear 4th attack.

That wasn't a fight and that wasn't his strongest attack, therefore we can't say he lacks strength. Even so, a basic Gear 4th attacks requires Big Mom to use Hardening to block implies he doesn't lack strength and it has the capability to hurt her; Lucci blocked Gear 2nd attacks, and when they hit clean, it hurt him and the same can be expected between Big Mom and Gear 4th. It's not like she took a King Kong Gun and made it look ineffective. We certainly can't say it lacks strength at this point.

Fujitora saying Luffy's strong enough doesn't have to mean anything, fact is he said it, therefore, it implies he's estimated Luffy's strength. What the Manga says means a lot, that much is a fact and while what we see is also very important, we've not seen anything to disprove what Fujitora said as wrong. The Manga for example states Weevil has strength like Whitebeard in his strength, you could say it doesn't mean anything to you, but it wouldn't matter because that's what the Manga is telling us; it's an Admiral saying it, we ought to give them the benefit of the doubt. And again, it's the protagonist we're talking about.

Luffy having difficulty against Cracker and Katakuri is not for a lack of strength:

• One was a case of not being to hit the opponent, well in fact, both. Katakuri's was due to Observation Haki and Cracker was due to his infinite army of biscuits. It's impossible to beat an opponent you can't touch.

Not being able to hit the opponent isn't evidence of lacking strength, it's just evident of having a difficult fight. Strength is the amount of force one can generate with their attack... we've seen what the force generated from Gear 4th attacks do when they land:

• One attack sent Cracker from the Seducing Forest to Whole Cake Chateaux which is very far away.

I don't think Luffy defeating Kaido will only then just prove he can take on Big Mom. It will however prove he's more than capable given the way he's been built up in comparison to even the likes of Big Mom.

 

[nik87]

Well, is the glass half full or half empty?
The clash with BM some consider that Luffy is strong enough just because she had to use hardening and others consider the opposite because he didnt move her at all, absolutely nothing happened from that attack. Even tho its basic its still Gear 4th and it did nothing.

Another thing speaking in favor that he is not ready enough to take on the Admirals and the Emperors is the point of the story which we are at - still far from the end, still all of the key endgame figures are there. If he is ready now then how will he grow? Why will he get power-ups if he's already strong enough?
You have to consider that he needs to be the underdog in each fight.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Don't think he has the raw strength to hurt BM now, that mad woman when in top shape is ridiculously strong, killing bears and giants since she was a kid ? Not even Luffy pulled that kind of feats

Frankly speaking, he won't win against Kaido in 1vs1, absolutely zero percent chance of that happening even with a powerup. Oda missed the opportunity to give him a decent powerup in WCI, a much needed one considering Kaido will be beaten in Wano arc according to Oda that is. Kaido's defeat will be simply an effort from the Worst Generation, that's how I see it happening

Back to the chapter, it is an alright one, some of the monarchs' names are a bit dumb but who gives a shit really. Green Bull seems like a very interesting admiral alright

Well, yes she was strong as a kid. Just because Luffy wasn't capable of doing that as a kid doesn't mean he won't grow strong to do incredible things. No one could have guessed that Luffy who was a wimp as a kid would be able to do what he's doing now. The level of strength he's developed in itself is already pretty fantastic. Big Mom was in tip top shape; Luffy wasn't in WCi given that he hadn't rested for 50 hours or eaten much to recuperate fully and he still beat Katakuri.

Oda's already gave him quite the power-up and he probably will get more power-ups. With this level of Observation, it will likely be very difficult to hit him. He's also not even Awakened which means the damage he outputs right now will pale in comparison to what he's capable of when he does Awakened and there's still room for his Armament to grow too. Of course, he won't have an easy fight, but the idea that a power up can't be enough to defeat him? One would need to know the future to make such an absolute statement, what evidence proves a power up won't when we don't know the magnitude of the power up and how it fairs in comparison to Kaido?.

Either way even with the inclusion of the other Supernova, Luffy will be given credit for Kaido and will play the biggest role, so we can expect him to do the majority of the damage like in every other battle he's faced. The role of the Supernova and Everyone in the series is more or less to support Luffy while he plays the role of being the solution to problems in terms of strength.

 

[M3J]

That was a Gear 3rd attack, not a Gear 4th, so that attack isn't really evident or showcasing Luffy's true strength. It would be like claiming that Sanji's kick on Oven which wasn't a Diable Jambe is proof that's the best his attack could do to Oven is mildly hurt him and I know you wouldn't believe that. Just like a kick void of Diable Jambe isn't evident of Sanji's true strength and power, neither is Gear 3rd.

It's the Gear 4th attack that is relevant and she had to block it with Hardened Armament which says something about the strength of a basic Gear 4th attack.

It's impossible to say he lacks the strength when:

1. He hadn't rested for 50 hours because he was running and fighting the entire time meaning he was in poor condition.
2. He only had stamina for 1 Gear 4th attack.

That wasn't a fight and that wasn't his strongest attack, therefore we can't say he lacks strength. Even so, a basic Gear 4th attacks requires Big Mom to use Hardening to block implies he doesn't lack strength and it has the capability to hurt her; Lucci blocked Gear 2nd attacks, and when they hit clean, it hurt him and the same can be expected between Big Mom and Gear 4th. It's not like she took a King Kong Gun and made it look ineffective. We certainly can't say it lacks strength at this point.

Yeah, Gear 3rd attack with Sanji against Big Mom and Gear 4th attack after that. I wasn't wrong. If Sanji's kick on Oven didn't do anything to Oven, and it wasn't even close to Sanji's weak attack, I'd also claim he'd have little to no chances of winning. Makes no sense to claim Luffy would have a chance when two attacks from him on Big Mom didn't do anything to her, regardless of strength.

Not really, if she didn't feel any sort of damage or was pushed back. Even Doflamingo felt something from a basic Gear 4th attack. Whether or not it required Big Mom to use haki, she still didn't feel anything from a basic Gear 4th attack. Did Lucci feel anything from the Gear 2nd attacks or did he just tank it like it was nothing?

It's not impossible at all when he did get sleep, even to the point that the others were scared he wouldn't wake up, as he was the main piece to the plan.

Fujitora saying Luffy's strong enough doesn't have to mean anything, fact is he said it, therefore, it implies he's estimated Luffy's strength. What the Manga says means a lot, that much is a fact and while what we see is also very important, we've not seen anything to disprove what Fujitora said as wrong. The Manga for example states Weevil has strength like Whitebeard in his strength, you could say it doesn't mean anything to you, but it wouldn't matter because that's what the Manga is telling us; it's an Admiral saying it, we ought to give them the benefit of the doubt. And again, it's the protagonist we're talking about.

Luffy having difficulty against Cracker and Katakuri is not for a lack of strength:

• One was a case of not being to hit the opponent, well in fact, both. Katakuri's was due to Observation Haki and Cracker was due to his infinite army of biscuits. It's impossible to beat an opponent you can't touch.

Not being able to hit the opponent isn't evidence of lacking strength, it's just evident of having a difficult fight. Strength is the amount of force one can generate with their attack... we've seen what the force generated from Gear 4th attacks do when they land:

• One attack sent Cracker from the Seducing Forest to Whole Cake Chateaux which is very far away.

I don't think Luffy defeating Kaido will only then just prove he can take on Big Mom. It will however prove he's more than capable given the way he's been built up in comparison to even the likes of Big Mom.

Or, Fujitora just respects Luffy, and he himself thinks Luffy has the heart and potential to be that powerful just by beating Doflamingo and saving the country. And maybe you haven't, but I have seen reasons to believe Fujitora is either wrong or shouldn't be taken literally.

That wasn't an attack, it was defense. Cracker attacked Luffy and was bounced back into his biscuits and sent miles away.

Luffy beating Kaidou will put him few steps closer to beating Big Mom, if not show that he is capable of beating her on his own.

 

[Core D. Roy]

Lol, I've always admitted I'm wrong when I know I am. I've said it many times before, if there's evidence for anything that demands I change my belief or opinion on anything, it has to be accepted assuming one's goal is the actual truth.

All three times you've ever been wrong in your 7 years of posting xD

--- Double Post Merged, May 28, 2018, Original Post Date: May 28, 2018 ---

Since we’ve only seen a handful of pages of Sabo fighting, not that it wasn’t AWESOME (I mean Dragon Claw taijutsu?!?! Hell yeah bitches!!) but it’s nothing we haven’t seen Luffy do and if Luffy is said to be under ‘Admiral’ level then by comparison neither is Sabo. Having said that I have a feeling that Sabo is stronger than Luffy for two reasons.:
1. As kids Sabo and Ace were ALWAYS stronger than Luffy. (Not that it is necessarily going to stay true at this point in their lives)
2. Sabo was trained by the best of the RA, and Dragon himself!! Who was said to be the most dangerous person on the planet. (If I remember right)

Garp is someone else I really wanna see go all out! It seems to me that everyone in the marines is afraid of him, as far as battle prowess anyway. I think this is shown by his lack of care when it comes to his mouth diarrhea and talking shit on the WG and the “celestial dragons. Didn’t they say once that he could have been an admiral but chose not to be? If that’s true then he would be the first person of massive fighting ability, other than Raleigh, without a devil fruit ability. I mean being as strong as Akainu or Aokiji, even Hirutora!, without a devil fruit is just insane!!

"Most dangerous" doesn't mean "strongest", although I'm sure Dragon is pretty powerful he ain't taking-on-the-entire-military powerful.

Yep Garp totally could have been an admiral for years now, but chose to keep his station as vice admiral. Forget who exactly said so, may have been Sengoku or Akainu. Garp is definitely crazy powerful, glad to see Coby pulling off ridiculously powerful non-DF-related stunts just like Garp does. Kinda want to see him chuck a cannonball the way Garp does.

--- Double Post Merged, May 28, 2018 ---

Big Mom actually actively blocked Luffy's Gear 4th attack. So I'm pretty sure you can't just dismiss it as something that wouldn't have hurt her. Luffy also resisted her fire along with Jinbe with little to no damage.

Tbh for someone we've seen so much of, I'm not actually very impressed with her. I'm more hyped for literally all other Yonko.

So? That doesn't mean it would have affected him, clash or not. And a clash isn't really a "block" anyway. Resisted her fire? When has ANYONE in comics actively succumbed to fire damage? Literally the only instance I can think of is Akainu/Ace and that was cited as inherent to lava > fire.

Every character Oda creates has flaws and weaknesses, even the emperors and admirals. I feel like people have latched onto BM's weaknesses as some reason she isn't impressive and they'll all have conveniently forgotten about this when Kaidou's alcoholism (or something as mundane as BM's hunger) is revealed to be his key weakness when we get to Wano. Hunger, alcoholism, carefree partying, wanton ambition- the vices of the emperors will all play a part in their inevitable downfall. People shit on BM because she was the first one to be shown in this way, but only a fool would think that she'll be the last.

Deep down I feel like she gets the worst of it because she's a large woman and not a classically-intimidating, ogre of a monster-man like Kaidou, or a relatable-but-still-obnoxiously-powerful every-man like Shanks, or a stereotypically pirate-y guy like Blackbeard. People seem to contort their impression of her around her appearance, which is silly. She has the single most horrific DF ability in the series so far (maybe aside from Sugar) and still gets second fiddle to fans who think Mr. Suicide is more of a threat because he "can't die". She got her DF by EATING A HUMAN BEING ALIVE.

Sorry got into a bit of a rant there. *ahem* /rant

 

[M3J]

Why don't they keep both the Shichibukai and Dr. Vegapunk's new inventions?

Because Fujitora and Smoker don't like shichibukai. I don't think Akainu does either? Not only do they not trust pirates, but at least two shichibukai have been caught doing horrible stuff, with the Marines unable to do anything about it due to the shichibukai's status. Fujitora and others likely want the ability to stop someone like Doflamingo and Crocodile from getting away with doing horrible stuff instead of relying on other pirates like Luffy.

Big Mom actually actively blocked Luffy's Gear 4th attack. So I'm pretty sure you can't just dismiss it as something that wouldn't have hurt her. Luffy also resisted her fire along with Jinbe with little to no damage.

Tbh for someone we've seen so much of, I'm not actually very impressed with her. I'm more hyped for literally all other Yonko.

Big Mom is dumb, but she's not that dumb that she'd let anyone hit her, much less a rookie who shot up in fame in less than a year, invaded three Marines strongholds, one where there was a war, and escape alive.

Neither am I. She just feels/seems like someone for Luffy to show how strong he's gotten after beating Kaidou, with help most likely.

Deep down I feel like she gets the worst of it because she's a large woman and not a classically-intimidating, ogre of a monster-man like Kaidou, or a relatable-but-still-obnoxiously-powerful every-man like Shanks, or a stereotypically pirate-y guy like Blackbeard. People seem to contort their impression of her around her appearance, which is silly. She has the single most horrific DF ability in the series so far (maybe aside from Sugar) and still gets second fiddle to fans who think Mr. Suicide is more of a threat because he "can't die". She got her DF by EATING A HUMAN BEING ALIVE.

I think it's more because people want to hype up Luffy in whatever way possible, and her and this arc showed that Luffy is nowhere near ready, so they're angry. Or also because some of us were intent on saying Luffy would not take down Big Mom this arc, nor would he had the capabilities to do so, if he did plan to.

 

[Baby_Sariel]

Because Fujitora and Smoker don't like shichibukai. I don't think Akainu does either? Not only do they not trust pirates, but at least two shichibukai have been caught doing horrible stuff, with the Marines unable to do anything about it due to the shichibukai's status. Fujitora and others likely want the ability to stop someone like Doflamingo and Crocodile from getting away with doing horrible stuff instead of relying on other pirates like Luffy.

Big Mom is dumb, but she's not that dumb that she'd let anyone hit her, much less a rookie who shot up in fame in less than a year, invaded three Marines strongholds, one where there was a war, and escape alive.

Neither am I. She just feels/seems like someone for Luffy to show how strong he's gotten after beating Kaidou, with help most likely.

I think it's more because people want to hype up Luffy in whatever way possible, and her and this arc showed that Luffy is nowhere near ready, so they're angry. Or also because some of us were intent on saying Luffy would not take down Big Mom this arc, nor would he had the capabilities to do so, if he did plan to.

Adding 6 pirates as enemies will be an additional problem for them, IMO. (I didn't count Kuma). Well, if Dr. Vegapunk's invention is powerful enough to counter them, then it will solve the problem. The Shichibukai somewhat lost their hype after successive defeats of the members, but generally they're even stronger than average Vice Admirals.
I don't think Luffy can defeat Big Mom as of now, especially when it is 1v1. Big Mom can focus and use 3 or let's say 2 of her homies (bye Zeus) against Luffy. Luffy was not just ready at this point. I think DF awakening plus other power ups will be the key to his success against her in the future.

 

[kcd]

Big Mom is dumb, but she's not that dumb that she'd let anyone hit her, much less a rookie who shot up in fame in less than a year, invaded three Marines strongholds, one where there was a war, and escape alive.

Neither am I. She just feels/seems like someone for Luffy to show how strong he's gotten after beating Kaidou, with help most likely.

I think it's more because people want to hype up Luffy in whatever way possible, and her and this arc showed that Luffy is nowhere near ready, so they're angry. Or also because some of us were intent on saying Luffy would not take down Big Mom this arc, nor would he had the capabilities to do so, if he did plan to.

What one must realize is that bigmom won't just sit in one place and only defend. She'll attack as well, and it's almost impossible to attack and defend at the same time.
Luffy will surely sacrifice getting hit in order to land hits as well. This was very key (and obvious) in the final moments of his fight with katakuri.

Katakuri wouldn't have lost if all he did was stay in one place and endlessly evade or defend attacks. He wanted to end the fight, that's why he went all in without caring if he gets hit or not.
Bigmom not budging now because she defended with haki won't mean anything when she starts receiving the same punch without protecting with haki.

She defended with haki because it would hurt her if she hadn't. Whitebeard gets hurt without haki, shanks gets hurt without haki (losing an arm), bigmom isn't kaido, I definitely see her getting hit (and getting hurt) by luffy in the heat of battle, and "IT" wasn't even luffy's strongest attack anyway, so...

It's pretty premature to claim luffy don't have any chance at all, especially when their fight may come down to who is faster and who can punch the hardest.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Yeah, Gear 3rd attack with Sanji against Big Mom and Gear 4th attack after that. I wasn't wrong. If Sanji's kick on Oven didn't do anything to Oven, and it wasn't even close to Sanji's weak attack, I'd also claim he'd have little to no chances of winning. Makes no sense to claim Luffy would have a chance when two attacks from him on Big Mom didn't do anything to her, regardless of strength.

Not really, if she didn't feel any sort of damage or was pushed back. Even Doflamingo felt something from a basic Gear 4th attack. Whether or not it required Big Mom to use haki, she still didn't feel anything from a basic Gear 4th attack. Did Lucci feel anything from the Gear 2nd attacks or did he just tank it like it was nothing?

It's not impossible at all when he did get sleep, even to the point that the others were scared he wouldn't wake up, as he was the main piece to the plan.

It's not that Gear 4th did nothing, it was blocked and she had to do so with Hardening. Using Hardening proves the attack was potent enough to hurt her.

It would be like saying that because Luffy blocked Lucci's attacks, they couldn't hurt him.

End of the day, fact is Luffy didn't use his strongest Gear 4th attack, so it makes no sense to claim it's too weak to hurt Big Mom.

 

[Zehahaha]

It's not that Gear 4th did nothing, it was blocked and she had to do so with Hardening. Using Hardening proves the attack was potent enough to hurt her.

It would be like saying that because Luffy blocked Lucci's attacks, they couldn't hurt him.

End of the day, fact is Luffy didn't use his strongest Gear 4th attack, so it makes no sense to claim it's too weak to hurt Big Mom.

It is too weak sorry, even if Luffy didn't use King Kong Gun on her, she blocked it with one punch back and using hardening like it was nothing
I mean, it remains to be seen if she was caught off guard and took a Gear 4 attack head on without blocking but I don't think it would cause much damage either

This bloody woman took on a thunderbolt like nothing, even on her starved state, she didn't seem like taking damage or anything

She didn't display insane technique like Katakuri, no crazy speed, even strength feats she didn't display many despite her been obviously strong as fuck, but not a single time she was threatened either, she is a force of nature basically

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

It is too weak sorry, even if Luffy didn't use King Kong Gun on her, she blocked it with one punch back and using hardening like it was nothing
I mean, it remains to be seen if she was caught off guard and took a Gear 4 attack head on without blocking but I don't think it would cause much damage either

Doesn't matter, fact is whether it was blocked doesn't mean it can't hurt and more so since Haki was used.

By your logic, Joker blocking Luffy's attacks means it can't hurt him.. they did when they landed, so your point is contradicted by the Manga.

This bloody woman took on a thunderbolt like nothing, even on her starved state, she didn't seem like taking damage or anything

A punch and electricity are 2 different things. Can't really compare. She also wasn't starved there, she was still rotund while Luffy had gone through 50 hours of no rest.

She didn't display insane technique like Katakuri, no crazy speed, even strength feats she didn't display many despite her been obviously strong as fuck, but not a single time she was threatened either, she is a force of nature basically

Nothing to do with technique. She blocked it, most people are able to block attacks. Point is blocked attacks can hurt when they land. So, to claim a clean Kong Gun to the face wouldn't hurt is an unfounded claim. No one blocks things with Hardening when it can't hurt.

 

[roggie]

A punch and electricity are 2 different things. Can't really compare. She also wasn't starved there, she was still rotund while Luffy had gone through 50 hours of no rest.

Wasn't Luffy arrested and imprisoned? I know it's not the rest of dreams but i imagine it's not like fighting katakuri non-stop. Which reminds me, Luffy got several brakes running through the mirror world and waiting for his haki replenishes. And didn't he sleep a couple of hours in Bege's hideout?
Besides, if 2 admiral (who are presumably weaker than an Yonko) could fight for ten straight days, what 2 days fighting is worth?

It's not that Gear 4th did nothing, it was blocked and she had to do so with Hardening. Using Hardening proves the attack was potent enough to hurt her.

Wasn't that his first gear fourth attack against her? I think she can be cautious. I would put a shirt to avoid mosquito bites but it doesn't prove a mosquito can defeat me.

But yeah, maybe Luffy can hurt her a little, if he is well fed, rested, etc And how long would it last, 20 minutes? I think it's more probable Luffy defeating BM when she gets vulnerable again.
And if Kaido is anywhere near BM, Luffy, at present, has little against him.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Big Mom is dumb, but she's not that dumb that she'd let anyone hit her, much less a rookie who shot up in fame in less than a year, invaded three Marines strongholds, one where there was a war, and escape alive.

Neither am I. She just feels/seems like someone for Luffy to show how strong he's gotten after beating Kaidou, with help most likely.

I think it's more because people want to hype up Luffy in whatever way possible, and her and this arc showed that Luffy is nowhere near ready, so they're angry. Or also because some of us were intent on saying Luffy would not take down Big Mom this arc, nor would he had the capabilities to do so, if he did plan to.

My point is that Yonko should be judged by their feats too. We're at that point in the series where when an antagonist spends a long time rampaging without actually living up to the expected hype, one has to realize they are probably at the bottom of whichever tier gave them that hype. In this case, it's Big Mom's Yonko title. Well, maybe Luffy took the medal for weakest Yonko now that he's also called Yonko. But regardless of that tbh, Big Mom seems less destructive than every Admiral, has less durability than Kaido, less ambition than Shanks, less composure and less power than Blackbeard. Honestly, if it weren't for power scaling on her subordinates, and that one feat blocking G4, I'd have been of the opinion that's she's barely a bit more powerful than Doflamingo. In fact, this was my opinion for most of the arc.

Also, the fact that Fishman Island and Jinbe hang in the balance clearly means Luffy will solo her when the time comes.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Wasn't Luffy arrested and imprisoned? I know it's not the rest of dreams but i imagine it's not like fighting katakuri non-stop. Which reminds me, Luffy got several brakes running through the mirror world and waiting for his haki replenishes. And didn't he sleep a couple of hours in Bege's hideout?
Besides, if 2 admiral (who are presumably weaker than an Yonko) could fight for ten straight days, what 2 days fighting is worth?

Nonetheless, while imprisoned, he tried to escape the entire time. He remained active the entire time, thus the reason his stomach growled after he was escaped.

Spoiler

So, it's not like he was just chilling waiting to be saved. He was constantly active.

The breaks he had against Katakuri is not the issue here. The point is prior to clashing with Big Mom, he'd been active for close to 50 hours.

He didn't even get to sleep for 2 hours with Bege, he spent time collecting all the animals in the seducing forest to have turned into his clone. He may well have gotten 1-2 hours. Nonetheless, try working for 50 hours and then just getting 2 hours sleep before going to work the next day. I don't think that's how full recovery works.

Also, a fight lasting for 10 days isn't really what determines whether or not a character is an Admiral, it only indicates stalemating. Some abilities don't even require the stamina of the user which is the case with many Logia abilities.

Even if you want to argue that 10 days is what defines begin Admiral, Luffy was never fresh to begin with. He went from 50 hours of constant activity to 2 hours of rest at best to fighting Katakuri for 10 hours.

Wasn't that his first gear fourth attack against her? I think she can be cautious. I would put a shirt to avoid mosquito bites but it doesn't prove a mosquito can defeat me.

Doesn't matter if it was his first attack.

Point is whenever a character uses Hardened Armament to defend, it's because they believe the attack can do damage:

1. Joker's "first" time challenging Gear 4th, and he used Hardening to defend.
   Spoiler

   
2. Vergo used Hardening against a bladed attack.
   Spoiler

   
3. Law used Hardening against Joker's strings.
   Spoiler

   

Your analogy is out of context, therefore, it doesn't work:

1. For one, Attacks in One Piece can hurt and knock people out - Mosquito bites can do no such thing. (First flaw in your analogy)
2. Haki reduces the impact of a blow - Shirts do not reduce the sting of Mosquito bites, it completely makes it impossible to be bitten in the covered area. Haki has no such absolute function, it doesn't make it impossible to be hurt or knocked out, it only reduces the power of the attack.

So, you really cannot compare Haki to a Shirt in that respect. Your reason for wearing it is not the same reason characters use Haki. It more or less makes this analogy an inaccurate analogy.

In One Piece, whenever characters capable of Hardening use Hardening, it's always because the attack can hurt. People don't wear shirts because a Mosquito bite can hurt, they wear shirts to avoid getting stung so they don't get malaria. The strength of a Mosquito isn't why people wear shirts, therefore, defeat to a Mosquito makes no sense.

But yeah, maybe Luffy can hurt her a little, if he is well fed, rested, etc And how long would it last, 20 minutes? I think it's more probable Luffy defeating BM when she gets vulnerable again.
And if Kaido is anywhere near BM, Luffy, at present, has little against him.

It's not a case of maybe if Big Mom has to use Hardening to defend. What other time did Big Mom make use of Hardening?

Oda's also not going to use the same Hunger-Pang excuse just to have Luffy defeat her, if anything, there will be no weakness to exploit. Hell, the Mother Carmel Picture is destroyed. That weakness can no longer be used. When he does defeat her, it'd have to be done with his own strength. It's absurd how underestimated the main character's strength is. The Emperors are overrated.

 

[nik87]

I don't think BM is weakest of the Emperors at all, I wouldn't even try to sort them from strongest to weakest since the possibility is high that I would be wrong. The only thing we can assume is that Kaido is strongest, since we have the confirmation that he is the strongest creature alive. So basically, he is the king of the mountain, the top force in One Piece world at this moment. We can place him in the first place because of that but we don't know much aside from that.

Ranking the other 3 Emperors shouldn't be done at this point in time, since we don't know strengths and weaknesses of them all. We can discuss Big Mom since we saw quite a lot of her. We saw that she is an indestructible fortress, nothing ever managed to harm her. We saw that she has 3 powerful hommies.
I think she is underestimated a lot. She is basically 3 characters in one. Mihawk+Ace+Enel=Big Mom, plus the insane defense.

She is missing the Enel element here but these 2 hommies alone are terrifying power more than enough.
She is a swordsman with fire element added into the equation. Even if she never gets the thunder element back she is insanely strong. Strong enough that her sword swings literally erased part of King Baum's body and the force of that swing went on slicing the ocean. Luffy is having trouble fighting the swordsmen and additionally place fire on top of it. If Cracker was strong enough to cut his Gear 4 armament, imagine what Big Mom can do. Thunder element might not exactly be of help against Luffy but it is against others.
Again, I think she is heavily underestimated.

 

[roggie]

Nonetheless, try working for 50 hours and then just getting 2 hours sleep before going to work the next day.

One-piece is not the real world. People don't fight for 11 hours straight in the real world. People don't get stabbed by a spear and keep fighting in the real world. Your analogy is out of context, therefore, it doesn't work.

Oda's also not going to use the same Hunger-Pang excuse just to have Luffy defeat her, if anything, there will be no weakness to exploit. Hell, the Mother Carmel Picture is destroyed. That weakness can no longer be used. When he does defeat her, it'd have to be done with his own strength. It's absurd how underestimated the main character's strength is. The Emperors are overrated.

There is simply no evidence to your claim. You don't know what's the origin of Big Mom invulnerability and though you know one example of what sets it off, you also don't know what exactly is the trigger. How can you affirm that weakness can no longer be used? You can't.

It's absurd how underestimated the main character's strength is. The Emperors are overrated.

How are we underestimating the main character's strenght when Luffy himself gave all the indications he couldn't defeat BM? When he hardly won against her underlings? If it's not a fact that Luffy can't take on BM without help/power up, then it's at the minimum the most probable scenario.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Doesn't matter if he had help, it wasn't a straight up brawl, it was a very tactical battle.

• If you can't touch your opponent, you can't hit them.
• If you can't hit your opponent, you can't beat them.

Joker and Cracker's abilities makes it very difficult to get to their body, therefore, damaging them is difficult.

Do you know how long it took for Luffy to get to Cracker's body? 11 hours till his attempt was successful. How long did it take to hit Big Mom? Not even a minute in attempt to hit her because her ability is not like Joker's or Cracker's.

If anything, your lack of context is crippling your judgement.

First of all, it does matter that he had help. Otherwise he would have lost.

Joker and Cracker's abilities are their own abilities that helps them win fights. In the end all that matters is who is the winner.

And do you know the concept of endurance? Cracker fights like a necromancer because he has weak endurance but BM doesn't because she has invulnerable defense.

You said that the fight was tactical but why do you describe as if all the fights are supposed to be straight up brawl? Otherwise you don't need to bring up abilities into the discussion.

Cracker hid behind his biscuits. Fair fight. Luffy nearly lost.
Joker hid behind strings. Fair fight. Luffy lost.

If you decide to say that their DF gave them advantage over Luffy then you should be saying that for every fight Luffy has been in. Even Luffy v 3 Admirals in Marineford war. According to your logic, if they had no logia properties he could have defeated them since his punches should have hurt.

Your discussion is based around what Fujitora said in the manga. However that was in Dressrossa and now we have more up to date information and we know what he said was wrong. Even when Luffy said he won't run away when his friends are in danger is proven wrong as well. Ask Pedro and Pekoms.

And the 50 hour no rest point. When Luffy came in to WCI, he was fresh and nearly got defeated by Cracker. Without NAMI he wouldn't be able to fight for 11 hours anyway.

In a recent chapter, BB said that Luffy isn't the Yonko power level yet.

And finally common sense. According to you, Luffy has already reached the top tier in strength. However, anyone who read other Shonen will know that the main character won't get to the top tier strength until the story is beginning to end. If Luffy is already top tier why is there any need for him to get a power up? Is the story near end? He still hasn't unlocked awakening, hasn't mastered CoA and CoC.

Us readers overestimate Yonko's? I wonder. It is Oda who gives each of them unique entrances and why they are above the masses.

If there is anyone overestimating anything, it is you who overestimate the strength of G4.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

A heavy weight boxer champion is playing with his 5 year old son that starts to punching his face. Although it can do him no permanent harm, it may cause some degree of pain, therefore he lifts his arms to defend his face.

You do not understand the concept of an analogy.

You compared Haki to a shirt.

A shirt doesn't dampen blows; Haki does. Therefore, your analogy was a bad one.

Analogies make comparisons with other things by making sure what it's being compared to functions similarly in order for the analogy to work.

As the above said, the heart works similar to a pump, therefore, an analogy can be made based on them. Haki and a shirt do not function the same way.

Even this boxing thing you're talking about here isn't an analogy, that's an anecdote. You're not comparing it to anything.

One-piece is not the real world. People don't fight for 11 hours straight in the real world. People don't get stabbed by a spear and keep fighting in the real world. Your analogy is out of context, therefore, it doesn't work.

People in One Piece do get tired, that was the purpose of the analogy which you failed to grasp, lol. Not about fighting.

The analogy had nothing to do with fighting, but with fatigue. Above your comprehension it seems.

You'd have to be lying to yourself to claim that people do not get tired in One Piece. Go ahead and state that, Otherwise, your point is moot.

It does work, lol.

You keep clamouring on about how One Piece cannot take things from real-life:

Seems you struggle with balancing the nature of the story regarding reality and fictional.

There is simply no evidence to your claim. You don't know what's the origin of Big Mom invulnerability and though you know one example of what sets it off, you also don't know what exactly is the trigger. How can you affirm that weakness can no longer be used? You can't.

Nope, this isn't a statement of evidence, but simply a statement of reasonability.

Big Mom's invulnerability is due to her genetics, pretty sure it was made clear in the Manga unless you failed to read between the lines which seems to be a common occurrence for your.

Big Mom's only vulnerability is the Mother Carmel image which Bege explicitly indicated, clearly, you missed that part too.

How are we underestimating the main character's strenght when Luffy himself gave all the indications he couldn't defeat BM? When he hardly won against her underlings? If it's not a fact that Luffy can't take on BM without help/power up, then it's at the minimum the most probable scenario.

Lol, no he didn't. He just said he's leaving Big Mom for another day because their main goal is Kaido. He cannot start a full on battle with Big Mom given the circumstance they were in. It's like this is too difficult for you to grasp.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

First of all, it does matter that he had help. Otherwise he would have lost.

Joker and Cracker's abilities are their own abilities that helps them win fights. In the end all that matters is who is the winner.

Wrong. The advantage an ability gives doesn't mean it indicates the strength of the user.

Joker's Birdcage required the entire Dressrosa to push.

1. Zoro + Fujitora + the SHGF + Fujitora's Fleet.

Does that mean that Joker is stronger than an Admiral+an Entire Country + The entire SHGF + Zoro together? No, that's nonsensical to believe. A DF doesn't necessary reflect the power of the user especially when it doesn't require their strength or stamina to function.

So, just because Cracker and Joker have overpowered abilities doesn't make them stronger. Just more advantaged. The winner of a fight also isn't necessarily the stronger, it just means they're the winner as Monet said.

Blackbeard was defeated by Magellan in 1 attack. What Magellan could do, neither Whitebeard who is the strongest Pirate since Roger nor Sengoku could do. By such atrocious rationale, you should be claiming Magellan to be the strongest individual in One Piece for defeating a guy that they couldn't.

And do you know the concept of endurance? Cracker fights like a necromancer because he has weak endurance but BM doesn't because she has invulnerable defense.

Wrong, you do not know the concept of endurance. Endurance is about stamina.

Cracker doesn't fight that way because he lacks stamina, he fights that way because he hates getting hit. As he himself said, he doesn't even like pricks from needles.

Big Mom doesn't fight like Cracker does because her ability doesn't just create clones arbitrarily to protect her. Abilities function differently, and therefore must be used in different ways to be used to the best to their optimum.

You said that the fight was tactical but why do you describe as if all the fights are supposed to be straight up brawl? Otherwise you don't need to bring up abilities into the discussion.

Of course it was tactical. Luffy was fighting a powerful individual with an ability allowing him to summon Power clones that protect him and make it impossible for Luffy to get to him.

All fights in the end need to become brawls especially if your weapon is your fist. How else are you supposed to defeat your opponent if you can't hit them? You think Luffy can win his opponents without brawling with them? Lol?

Even Cracker had to more or less make it a brawl. End of the day, he needed to land the blow himself but he got caught slipping.

Just because a fight is tactical doesn't mean a brawl isn't a part of a tactical fight.

Your discussion is based around what Fujitora said in the manga. However that was in Dressrossa and now we have more up to date information and we know what he said was wrong. Even when Luffy said he won't run away when his friends are in danger is proven wrong as well. Ask Pedro and Pekoms.

Of course what Fujitora says is important, he's an Admiral who assessed Luffy's strength.

You didn't in any shape or form understand what Luffy was saying.

Luffy says he doesn't have to run. When you don't have to do something, it means you can do it. Luffy says he doesn't have to run, but he can run. He said that pattern of running ended 2 years ago.

2 Years ago, they fought against Pacifista whom if you read previous pages and chapters before this scene, they struggled and were overwhelmed to the point they all needed to fight at full strength just to defeat 1 Pacifista.

In the panel above, Zoro and Sanji make it clear that this Pacifista they just struggled to beat wasn't even the real Kuma who had the power of the Paw-Paw fruit, therefore, should the real Kuma appear, they'd definitely be defeated if a mere imitation of him was able to beat them up that much.

• Running away was the only option which you clearly don't understand.

And if you look carefully, they say this is before an Admiral even appeared. If they're struggling against mere Paciifsta, they'd most certainly lose to the Real Kuma and most certainly an Admiral. Therefore, running was the only option, thus Luffy saying we have to get out of here.

In Dressrosa, he's saying that pattern ended. He doesn't have to run away because he's no longer able to challenge Admirals and Emperor, he only needs to run out of necessity to fulfil other things he deems a priority. Now, he's able to challenge them.

So, Luffy never meant he was going to stop literally running away, he just said he no longer has to run away because of being weak or afraid, that ended 2 years ago because he's strong now. Fujitora agreed.