One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

I get your point but Rebecca is no match for Luffy, same like Vergo easily blocked Tashigi because she was no match for him. That's why I said, it's hard to tell what the power behind collar blades is and that for the story purposes it's not as easy as shielding with haki, it simply takes the main purpose of the collar away.

Every stronger opponent bypassed Luffy's CoA, from Hody to Doffy to Cracker...
He never tanked Katakuri's trident.

He blocked it in the Anime (don't know if that counts) but still, yeah the message is passed. Strong opponents with sharp weapons are able to bypass Luffy's CoA which goes back to the same problem Luffy has. A relatively weak CoA.

 

[kcd]

Every stronger opponent bypassed Luffy's CoA, from Hody to Doffy to Cracker...
He never tanked Katakuri's trident.

Luffy uses his strongest version of hardening only in gear four. It's the one that have the flamy design pattern around it.
I say it's the strongest because we've only seen top tiers use it — Bigmom (to defend against Luffy's gear4) and Katakuri (when going all-out with his strongest attack).

Only yonko commanders have been able to bypass it so far, and for obvious reasons. But surely, the likes of hordy Jones won't compete with that.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 16, 2019 ---

Even Doffy's final attack which is a piercing attack failed to bypass his hardening when it clashed with the KKG.
If it's a head-on clash, I doubt Cracker would've cut him.

 

[nik87]

@kcd I think there is no difference between his hardening in base form and G4, there is no reason for it to be stronger in gears compared to base form.
The flamy design is, imo, just better visual solution on a bulkier body than to cut it off in a straight line as it's done on slim base form...

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

@kcd I think there is no difference between his hardening in base form and G4, there is no reason for it to be stronger in gears compared to base form.
The flamy design is, imo, just better visual solution on a bulkier body than to cut it off in a straight line as it's done on slim base form...

But how do we explain Katakuri having the flame design later on?

If it's due to bulk, we can say that's true as Big Mom and G4 Luffy are bulky. But then again Katakuri can be said to be bulky as well given his physique which would be consistent if he had it stocked like Big Mom right from the start. I think it was at the point when he started using his harder, more concentrated blocked mochi technique did he reveal the flame CoA pattern (too lazy to go back to WCI arc again)
A little dilemma here we could say...
I've been wondering... Who's bigger?
Katakuri or Whitebeard?

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 16, 2019 ---

But how do we explain Katakuri having the flame design later on?

If it's due to bulk, we can say that's true as Big Mom and G4 Luffy are bulky. But then again Katakuri can be said to be bulky as well given his physique which would be consistent if he had it stocked like Big Mom right from the start. I think it was at the point when he started using his harder, more concentrated blocked mochi technique did he reveal the flame CoA pattern (too lazy to go back to WCI arc again)
If it's something else then we've got a little dilemma here we could say...
I've been wondering... Who's bigger?
Katakuri or Whitebeard?

 

[kcd]

@kcd I think there is no difference between his hardening in base form and G4, there is no reason for it to be stronger in gears compared to base form.
The flamy design is, imo, just better visual solution on a bulkier body than to cut it off in a straight line as it's done on slim base form...

Not gears in general, just gear four.

Snakeman looks less bulkier than boundman, but it still had the flamy design.

I'm also highly certain Katakuri was bigger than gear four Luffy, yet there was no flamy design pattern untill he decided to finally go all-out. It hints it might be stronger than normal hardening.

 

[nik87]

But how do we explain Katakuri having the flame design later on?

If it's due to bulk, we can say that's true as Big Mom and G4 Luffy are bulky. But then again Katakuri can be said to be bulky as well given his physique which would be consistent if he had it stocked like Big Mom right from the start. I think it was at the point when he started using his harder, more concentrated blocked mochi technique did he reveal the flame CoA pattern (too lazy to go back to WCI arc again)
A little dilemma here we could say...
I've been wondering... Who's bigger?
Katakuri or Whitebeard?

I think Katakuri only had flamy design on the bulky Diced Mochi move, otherwise, it was portrayed regularly.
WB seems bigger - 6.66cm, Katakuri - 5.07cm, if I remember right.

Not gears in general, just gear four.

Snakeman looks less bulkier than boundman, but it still had the flamy design.

I'm also highly certain Katakuri was bigger than gear four Luffy, yet there was no flamy design pattern untill he decided to finally go all-out. It hints it might be stronger than normal hardening.

You have a point with Snakeman form, not that bulky. I dont know if it's stronger form of Hardening, it doesnt look like it to me.
He was hurting against Katakuri with non-flamy design as well as with flamy design...
Who knows...

 

[M3J]

@M3J, maybe Garp wouldn’t have killed Akainu but for sures he could’ve done some damaged. & WB definitely held back, you know he could’ve gone all 100% if his crew wasn’t there. &&&& Garp did NOT sucker punch Marco. Dude they were in a war zone, on opposite sides, Marco was just slower than Garp. For an old man to punch Marco while Kizaru couldn’t, that says a lot from Garp. Also I guess Marco sucker punched (kicked) Aokiji. Nope it was a war zone. Now Squardo sucker punched (stabbed) WB, because they were in the same sides and WB had his guard down near his ally.

Whitebeard had no reason to hold back, given his devil fruit he could have done more damage. His age was his weakness.

Garp definitely could have. And I"m arguing that he didn't lose that much power, if he even did, due to age. But then again, Garp says he's rusty, and he knows better, but that could be due to not being in good fights.

Garp was able to punch Marco because Marco didn't expect it, unless Kizaru also tried to surprise attack Marco but failed. In any case, nik87 probably said it better, it's a cheap shot because Marco noticed movement but likely didn't expect Garp to fight.

@albertwv @M3J Hm, about Garp and Marco... It's hard to tell if it was cheap-shot or not.

Marco wasn't aware that he was being attacked that is true but he looked directly at the spot where Garp was...

I am leaning more towards cheap-shot, it's similar to Zoro cheap-shotting Hawkins in the first hit but in that case Hawkins was also distracted by the lizard while here nothing distracted Marco...

Wait, I thought Marco noticed something and then got punched in the next panel by Garp... did he? I don't remember what happens in the next panel.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 16, 2019 ---

Regarding of garp i suppose he is a marine equivalent to gol d roger so its no wonder.

I think the main argument is that age made him weaker as it did Whitebeard, but WHitebeard was also ill. Not sure how much older he is to Garp though.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Wait, I thought Marco noticed something and then got punched in the next panel by Garp... did he? I don't remember what happens in the next panel.

 

[nik87]

@M3J I think I side with Albert here on not cheap-shot. The next panel is what Sachsenhesse linked.
Marco was looking at Garp and noticed him but couldnt react in time.

 

[M3J]

Likely, or he saw Garp disappear or had no idea. Still though, Garp hasn't shown any sign of age affecting him during the war and even after the timeskip.

 

[Zehahaha]

@kcd I think there is no difference between his hardening in base form and G4, there is no reason for it to be stronger in gears compared to base form.
The flamy design is, imo, just better visual solution on a bulkier body than to cut it off in a straight line as it's done on slim base form...

Don't agree, otherwise his Haki consumption during Gear 4 wouldn't leave him Haki-less for 10 minutes. His consumption clearly increases in Gear 4, which I can only mean it is stronger than normal imo
Besides, he seemed resilient enough to even take hits from DD without flinching too in his Gear 4

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

Whitebeard had no reason to hold back, given his devil fruit he could have done more damage. His age was his weakness.

Garp definitely could have. And I"m arguing that he didn't lose that much power, if he even did, due to age. But then again, Garp says he's rusty, and he knows better, but that could be due to not being in good fights.

Garp was able to punch Marco because Marco didn't expect it, unless Kizaru also tried to surprise attack Marco but failed. In any case, nik87 probably said it better, it's a cheap shot because Marco noticed movement but likely didn't expect Garp to fight.


Wait, I thought Marco noticed something and then got punched in the next panel by Garp... did he? I don't remember what happens in the next panel.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 16, 2019 ---

I think the main argument is that age made him weaker as it did Whitebeard, but WHitebeard was also ill. Not sure how much older he is to Garp though.

Garp is the second oldest of them legends. He's older than Roger (if he was alive), Whitebeard, and probably Shiki, same age with Rayleigh (also second oldest legend)
He's 78 years old stated vividly in Oda's SBS.
PK is 77 (if he was alive), a year younger than his RHM.
WB is 74 (if he was still alive).

So yeah, Whitebeard is younger, 4 years younger than Garp.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2019 ---

Likely, or he saw Garp disappear or had no idea. Still though, Garp hasn't shown any sign of age affecting him during the war and even after the timeskip.

Exactly the point being passed. He is so freaking strong even in old age that people (both readers and citizens of the OP world) still wonder how monstrous he was in his younger days.

It's best we stoppe giving excuses.
When Whitebeard and other characters said Whitebeard got weakened due to old age. No one asked questions or gave excuses.

Now when one who's even more dreary than him (yes Garp is stronger than WB accept it or not) and other characters said Garp has weakened due to old age.
Questions are being asked and faulters are all over the place.

This dispute is having a little Sanji vibe around it. Well it's nice for a change. I won't be the one to fuel the Cakebaker/Soba Mask/Stealthblack/Blackleg (this guy's going to be a legend - names alone is already pointing in that direction) debate.

PS: I just couldn't help it.

 

[nik87]

Don't agree, otherwise his Haki consumption during Gear 4 wouldn't leave him Haki-less for 10 minutes. His consumption clearly increases in Gear 4, which I can only mean it is stronger than normal imo
Besides, he seemed resilient enough to even take hits from DD without flinching too in his Gear 4

The way I see it is that Haki is independent of DF abilities, in Luffy's case, his gears. Katakuri has no gears, Big Mom has no gears, Shanks and Garp who are most likely CoA monsters have no gears so the advanced form of Hardening should not depend on the DF. That means for Luffy, if he is able to use some advanced form of it, there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to use it in his normal form.

His Haki consumption increases yes but for other reasons, imo. First off, G4 doesn't work without Haki, in other gears, he can cancel Haki whenever he wants and can use it only on the contact surfaces while G4 is almost a full body constant Haki usage and that's the reason why it's being consumed faster. Using it on a bigger surface constantly and suppressing his body from expanding will naturally result in faster consumption.

At least, that's my opinion about Boundman while Snakeman seems weird since only parts of his limbs are coated and the body is not being suppressed from expanding...

 

[Takuan]

yes Garp is stronger than WB accept it or not

I don't accept it.
And i could just tell you "Garp is not stronger than Whitebeard, accept it or not". Would that prove me right? These kinds of sentences prove nothing and add nothing to the table aside from trying to force your opinion on others.
I'd be more willing to admit it if you could prove it, or provide something to it. But you can't, because there's absolutely zero things leaning towards Garp being stronger than Whitebeard.
That doesn't even make sense to me, again feel free to prove your point, so far i don't see how anyone can think that. When the powers of the World are suppose to maintain balance, it would be ridiculous if a Yonko+ level character was in the Marines. Makes no sense at all and would make Marineford extremely one sided.
Now i think Marineford was one sided to begin with, but at least on the losing side there was a Yonko character, the one called the Strongest Man in the World. But now you're claiming someone even stronger was on the Marines side? Yeah well good luck convincing me. But at least i'm open to you trying, instead of claiming "accept it or not".

 

[nik87]

I dont think that Garp is stronger than WB overall but he is equal. At the point of MF war, Garp may have been slightly ahead because he showed no sign of weakness due to old age, contrary to WB, even tho he is 4 years older. It was said that Garp and Roger were always trying to kill each other so that puts Garp in the same power level as Roger and since Roger and WB were equals, there is no reason to think that Garp ain't equal to WB.

Realistically, MF war was very one-sided and they could have taken WB out relatively easy if 3 Admirals+Garp+Sengoku ganged up on him but I think the reason why Sengoku and Garp especially didn't engage with WB is because they are too powerful and such clash would surely sink Marineford.
Even like this, all damage coming just from one side, it almost destroyed Marineford.

Back, during the Reverie chapters, when Garp spoke about Rox/Lox he grinned and Hina pointed it out and asked why he does it. To me, that seems like he wants some action and I hope Oda hasn't written him off yet when it comes to fights so we can see what's he made of.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

And i could just tell you "Garp is not stronger than Whitebeard, accept it or not". Would that prove me right?

You want proof I'll give you proof.
Back in Marineford Akainu noted that Whitebeard and pretty much everyone else was second rate Pirates compared to Roger. They were all virtually in the background with Roger leading the way in everything (power, fame, wealth).
The only person, I repeat only person able to duel the freaking Pirate King was the Hero of the Marines (You know who). Not Whitebeard, he wasn't strong enough to battle Roger. Nobody was except Garp.

Now please interpret all you want but it's all laid bare right there in Marineford why the WBP stood no chance of victory.
Hence, the best plan Whitebeard had was to sink Marineford not face a demon (I believe this was the word every notorious pirate of the old gen used to describe Garp).
He was feared in the seas back then and still is.
Remember Big Mom's first conversation with Luffy? She still held a grudge on Garp for only God knows what he had done to her.
In fact most powerful pirates of their time did.


You might be wondering why I don't post panels. You won't believe me if I told you I don't know how. Honestly I don't.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

I don't think Luffy's Haki is stronger in Gear 4th. Reason Gear 4th is powerful is not simply due to Haki.

He's inflated his muscles. They're heavier and harder too I suppose. The totality of his increased muscle mass, inflated body, muscle mass and rubbery properties along with Haki all contribute to the end product. I don't think it's just one thing.

The pattern, I'd attribute to just aesthetics, I don't think there's much significance to it at this point in time. Maybe it just appears more intimidating because it looks very tribal and threatening. Bar that, I don't think there is. When Katakuri said his Haki was stronger, he was using "Block Mochi" and there were no designs. Maybe it's not just the Haki being reference or reason why his punches were so hard, but also the fact that his Mochi's constitution was made into a form that was harder than his regular Mochi and together with his Haki made for a much more powerful armour together. Also, note Luffy never comments on his Armament as being exceptionally strong outside of Block Mochi. Seems to only be in that form.

Sometimes the language in One Piece can be so obscure. We all know that Luffy is not immune to blunt attacks even when void of Haki, but because Luffy always says it in such a way that gives that impression, we easily come to that conclusion. While the statements may give a certain impression, one thing that can't be wrong are the visuals. He may say blunt damage doesn't hurt, but we see it hurts. I think this is the case with the Haki thing here, we see 2 things that give this apparent result and it strongly hints at the end result being a combination of 2 things.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

@AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA

If i remember correctly WB and Roger tied, which makes them equals in most people minds. On the other hand, it was never implied that Garp was on par with them. He chased them etc., but we dont know how their fights went, only that roger decided himself to get captured.

 

[M3J]

Garp is the second oldest of them legends. He's older than Roger (if he was alive), Whitebeard, and probably Shiki, same age with Rayleigh (also second oldest legend)
He's 78 years old stated vividly in Oda's SBS.
PK is 77 (if he was alive), a year younger than his RHM.
WB is 74 (if he was still alive).

So yeah, Whitebeard is younger, 4 years younger than Garp.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2019 ---

Exactly the point being passed. He is so freaking strong even in old age that people (both readers and citizens of the OP world) still wonder how monstrous he was in his younger days.

It's best we stoppe giving excuses.
When Whitebeard and other characters said Whitebeard got weakened due to old age. No one asked questions or gave excuses.

Now when one who's even more dreary than him (yes Garp is stronger than WB accept it or not) and other characters said Garp has weakened due to old age.
Questions are being asked and faulters are all over the place.

This dispute is having a little Sanji vibe around it. Well it's nice for a change. I won't be the one to fuel the Cakebaker/Soba Mask/Stealthblack/Blackleg (this guy's going to be a legend - names alone is already pointing in that direction) debate.

PS: I just couldn't help it.

Oh shit, Garp's training seems to have kept him fit and healthy and younger looking than Whitebeard. Looks like those rice cakes or whatever he was eating in front of SEngoku must have helped him

No reason to believe Garp is stronger than Whitebeard, but he's still strong enough to probably be on or near the top tier. Garp may have weakened due to age or not having good challenge, but he's still pretty dangerous. I'm not sure why he's getting criticism when he hasn't shown he's weak at all.

Back in Marineford Akainu noted that Whitebeard and pretty much everyone else was second rate Pirates compared to Roger. They were all virtually in the background with Roger leading the way in everything (power, fame, wealth).

I'm not sure if Akainu's viewpoint counts when we see in Whitebeard's flashback that he never aspired to be the Pirate King or become the wealthiest or most famous. Whitebeard's goal was to have a family of his own, so he likely wouldn't care about being the most powerful or loudest. Roger on the other hand was known to be flashy and extravagant, so it'd make sense for him to be see as the strongest and most famous pirate.

I mean, Akainu called Whitebeard a failure who couldn't become Pirate King, but we see that Whitebeard never cared about that. Hell, he put more effort into grooming Ace to reach Raftel than he spent time trying to get there.

 

[AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA]

@AINSOOALGOWN_SAMA

If i remember correctly WB and Roger tied, which makes them equals in most people minds. On the other hand, it was never implied that Garp was on par with them. He chased them etc., but we dont know how their fights went, only that roger decided himself to get captured.

It was very much implied. Roger himself in a flashback mentioned that he and Garp nearly killed each other multiple times before mentioning how he had grow to trust Roger then laying the burden to raising Ace to him.

Meanwhile Roger was superior to Whitebeard. They were rivals but Roger was the strongest Whitebeard is just the best of the rest (among pirates).
He only got his epithet – World strongest man – after the demise of Roger.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 16, 2019, Original Post Date: Mar 16, 2019 ---

Oh shit, Garp's training seems to have kept him fit and healthy and younger looking than Whitebeard. Looks like those rice cakes or whatever he was eating in front of SEngoku must have helped him

No reason to believe Garp is stronger than Whitebeard, but he's still strong enough to probably be on or near the top tier. Garp may have weakened due to age or not having good challenge, but he's still pretty dangerous. I'm not sure why he's getting criticism when he hasn't shown he's weak at all.


I'm not sure if Akainu's viewpoint counts when we see in Whitebeard's flashback that he never aspired to be the Pirate King or become the wealthiest or most famous. Whitebeard's goal was to have a family of his own, so he likely wouldn't care about being the most powerful or loudest. Roger on the other hand was known to be flashy and extravagant, so it'd make sense for him to be see as the strongest and most famous pirate.

I mean, Akainu called Whitebeard a failure who couldn't become Pirate King, but we see that Whitebeard never cared about that. Hell, he put more effort into grooming Ace to reach Raftel than he spent time trying to get there.

I do agree with your point.
I find it stupid on Ace's side that he was trying to make WB pirate king when the man himself had no such desire.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 17, 2019 ---

Oh and I've been thinking:

World Strongest Man
World Strongest Creature (does this include man?) cos man is also a creature.

So Kaido > WB

Well, they did say if it's one on one always bet on Kaido.

Hmmm...

But as HP highlighted recently, Japanese can be sometimes ambiguous and misdirectional.