One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
​

As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[kkck]

The WG has to win here or the story stops making sense.

If Luffy can just random wtf shit Yolo bonkadoodle through this force, there is no need for any Pirate King.


Naaah.

Cracker was omegalul stall guy. As soon as the armor was gone he didn't manage to do shit against Luffy ever again. He's a swordsmen but any real swordmen of his level like Zoro (pre Wano) would defeat him in one swing. Cracker explicitly stated he can't stand pain, he's half naked and even a trillion cookie soldiers wouldn't stop a swing from Zoro.

Doflamingo takes any cookie soldiers with parasite. Easy win low diff.

Jack is just Patchwerk from Naxxramas. A "gearcheck" encounter. Just giant HP nothing special. His durability is insane but Doflamingo shreds this guy low diff. Doflamingo's offensive combat specialty is amputation he is Law's evil twin power wise.

Even Queen is debatable. Beyond the plagues he is Jack with laser beams. Counting the plagues he kills anyone but Doc Q but I think one just shouldn't.

And Smoothie has no features.

And Marineford had Doflamingo > Jozu. Jozu also not too special in his feats.

YC tiers have always been shit for powerscaling. We are dealing with Admirals, Yonko, the Gorosei and a freaking Sun God can we stop sticking to YC as measurement sticks for anything?

The terms never even matched for the organizations that were supposed to be reflected in it.

Cracker is a glass canon that was able to engage with G4 luffy in close quarter. In contrast to doflamingo who was sent halfway across dressrosa every time luffy got close. Add to that cracker having the capacity to cut through G4 luffy, meanwhile doflamingo's standard attacks pretty much bounced off. Cracker is definitely well ahead of doflamingo..

 

[BlackTiger]

Oda is consistent with how he portrays Doflamingo/MF Crocodile above the likes of Queen, Jozu, Vista.

No haki MF Crocodile vs top tier

Spoiler

Queen vs No haki top tier

Spoiler

Doflamingo vs Sanji

Spoiler

Queen vs Nerfed Sanji

Spoiler

Even in MF, Jozu was helpless against Doflamingo. Doflamingo treated him like a bug.

VIsta vs Ronse

Spoiler

Ronse who overpowered Vista vs Oars Jr

Spoiler

Doflamingo vs Oars Jr

Spoiler

Cracker vs Boundman changes nothing. That shows Cracker is above Queen, Jozu and Vista too.

 

[McNuss]

Cracker is a glass canon that was able to engage with G4 luffy in close quarter. In contrast to doflamingo who was sent halfway across dressrosa every time luffy got close. Add to that cracker having the capacity to cut through G4 luffy, meanwhile doflamingo's standard attacks pretty much bounced off. Cracker is definitely well ahead of doflamingo..

There is one panel of them in close quarter combat, where Luffy shatters the armor, believing that would have annihilated Cracker, who subsequently gets a stealth attack in (that has no consequences for the rest of the fight). The next time they get into it, Cracker gets sent flying through all his soldiers just by poking into Luffy's belly, and gets subsequently knocked out.

What the offscreened inbetween was like, Nami explained it, Cracker sent wave after wave of cookie soldiers, there was no more melee combat.

He is not ahead of Doflamingo and the community has just tweaked the little facts from an halfway ofscreened fight into their likings because the "YC" had been fan favorites since Marineford.

Saying Cracker > Doflamingo is the same as saying Foxy > Enel. I mean, Enel couldn't damage Luffy and Foxy made him bleed a lot, see he is clearly superior...

 

[kkck]

There is one panel of them in close quarter combat, where Luffy shatters the armor, believing that would have annihilated Cracker, who subsequently gets a stealth attack in (that has no consequences for the rest of the fight). The next time they get into it, Cracker gets sent flying through all his soldiers just by poking into Luffy's belly, and gets subsequently knocked out.

What the offscreened inbetween was like, Nami explained it, Cracker sent wave after wave of cookie soldiers, there was no more melee combat.

He is not ahead of Doflamingo and the community has just tweaked the little facts from an halfway ofscreened fight into their likings because the "YC" had been fan favorites since Marineford.

Saying Cracker > Doflamingo is the same as saying Foxy > Enel. I mean, Enel couldn't damage Luffy and Foxy made him bleed a lot, see he is clearly superior...

That's simply not how the fight played out or it was portrayed. To start, the fight took hours. We specifically see cracker lunge at luffy while luffy was in gear 4 . Cracker was not just someone who hid behind a broken ability (add to that his broken ability probably requiring immense skill on his end). So while wearing his armor cracker overpowered gear 2-3 luffy well quicker than doflamingo ever did and even while being a glass cannon he had zero issues lunging at luffy with no cracker soldiers between them. Meanwhile almost every time gear 4 luffy got close to doflamingo he ended up torpedoed through dressrosa.

 

[BlackTiger]

That's simply not how the fight played out or it was portrayed. To start, the fight took hours. We specifically see cracker lunge at luffy while luffy was in gear 4 . Cracker was not just someone who hid behind a broken ability (add to that his broken ability probably requiring immense skill on his end). So while wearing his armor cracker overpowered gear 2-3 luffy well quicker than doflamingo ever did and even while being a glass cannon he had zero issues lunging at luffy with no cracker soldiers between them. Meanwhile almost every time gear 4 luffy got close to doflamingo he ended up torpedoed through dressrosa.

Boundman will also torpedo Queen and Jack throughout Wano tbf. Queen and Jack are too slow and too fragile to react to Boundman and tank Boundman. After all Boundman rattled Big Mom hakified arm. Neither Queen nor Jack has shown durability to tank attacks that could rattle hakified arm of a physical beast like Big Mom.

Let's not forget that Doflamingo was also nerfed against Boundman thanks to Gamma Knife.

 

[McNuss]

That's simply not how the fight played out or it was portrayed. To start, the fight took hours. We specifically see cracker lunge at luffy while luffy was in gear 4 . Cracker was not just someone who hid behind a broken ability (add to that his broken ability probably requiring immense skill on his end). So while wearing his armor cracker overpowered gear 2-3 luffy well quicker than doflamingo ever did and even while being a glass cannon he had zero issues lunging at luffy with no cracker soldiers between them. Meanwhile almost every time gear 4 luffy got close to doflamingo he ended up torpedoed through dressrosa.

Doflamingo can pupeteer the cookie soldiers, as well as turn the cookie into string so Idk how this debate ever came up.
Cracker is not even a remotely popular character, there is zero reason for this defense all the time.

Doflamingo has excellent combat feats through the entire Manga, like completely toying with Atmos and halting Diamond Jozu like nothing, or walking around with his own organs shred to soup and only fixed by his own ad-hoc nano surgery.

The lenght of a fight is not an indicator for anything and Luffy vs Kizaru recently should have proven that.
Cracker's ability is stalling. In close combat, he looked way worse than Doflamingo and only survived thanks to an armor that he could not repair in-fight.
It was a stupid move, yes he overpowered base Luffy by recklessly charging in, but anyone could do that with base Luffy who pre aCoO, chances are high Vergo could...Cracker lost his armor and didn't manage to do shit with his sneak attack, that was the result of that clash. He only lunged at Luffy twice, first was a sneack attack while Luffy believed he annihilated Cracker just before, the second time was his downfall in humiliating fashion.

Even going by the "card theme", Doflamingo should be above King, just saying...

But end of the day, all of these characters are in the same group, which is below Admiral and above Base Commander VAs. Whose atop or bottom of that group is of little concern to the overall story anymore as we've moved past it. I just don't think the internal ranks of the YC ever meant anything beyond their respective organizations, so basically:

For Kaido: King > Queen > Jack
For Big Mom (and these aren't even hierarchical just inference from bounties and common sense): Katakuri > Smoothie > Cracker > Snack/Perospero

And that's pretty much it, the other Yonko don't even have such a system. You can't even safely infer Smoothie > Jack from it, let alone use it as constitutional baseline for eight different organizations. If you look at it from a macroscopical perspective, all of the Yonko's top officers belong in the same tier anyways.

 

[Fox666]

That's just some good old powercreep...

Doflamingo was a top-tier back then, but since he lost in Dressrosa, he turned out to be one of the weakest Shichibukai, and below most Yonko commanders

 

[BlackTiger]

That's just some good old powercreep...

Doflamingo was a top-tier back then, but since he lost in Dressrosa, he turned out to be one of the weakest Shichibukai, and below most Yonko commanders

There's no powercreep you are just underestimating Cracker.

There's 0 proof Doflamingo is the weakest shichibukai that belongs to Moria.

Doflamingo was portrayed equal with Crocodile who without haki squared up with Mihawk while Marco, Jozu and Vista needed haki to square up with weaker opponents like admirals.

Doflamingo trashed Jozu.

Doflamingo 1 shot Oars Jr while Ronse who overpowered Vista struggled against Oars Jr.

MF shows Doflamingo had better feats than Jozu and Vista.

Then fast forward to Dressrosa where Doflamingo easily negged Sanji while Queen took multiple chapters to beat nerfed Sanji.

Doflamingo and MF Crocodile are portrayed that strong in MF. It's just people choose to hype WBP commanders instead so MF Crocodile and Doflamingo feats are overlooked.

Now let's look at Crocodile who is portrayed as YC1 in a yonko crews which again hypes Doflamingo who is portrayed equal with him in MF. Law said you deserve to be a yonko by having Crocodile and Mihawk under you. Imagine Law said having Jack and Queen under you make you deserve to be a yonko lmao.

Aokiji also put Doflamingo above Boa when he was talking to Smoker. 3 admirals were required to capture Doflamingo. Imagine admiral saying 3 admirals were required to capture Jack lmao. Even if you see from feats, Doflamingo easily beat Smoker and his underlings while Smoker alone held his own against Boa.

Kuma is never above Doflamingo. I would elaborate on this once viz drops since it would be spoiler if I talk more about this.

The only warlords above Doflamingo are Mihawk, Weevil and current Law.

Doflamingo is equal to Crocodile. Above Boa Hancock and the rest.

I already debunked your powercreep argument. That makes Kaido<Kizaru which Oda debunked because in SBS Oda already said Kaido is stronger than Akainu who is stronger than Kizaru.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 19, 2024, Original Post Date: Jan 19, 2024 ---

below most Yonko commanders

Only Cracker and Katakuri lmao. What feats do other YC bar YC1 have to be put above Doflamingo?

Doflamingo already trashed Jozu.

1 shot Oars Jr who overpowered Ronse a vice admiral who held his own against Vista and several WBP commanders.

Doflamingo needed 1 chapter to 1 shot Sanji. Queen needed multiple chapters to beat weaker Sanji.

MF Crocodile without haki who=non haki Doflamingo squared up with Mihawk. Queen got 2 shot by non hakii Big Mom.

Putting Queen and Jack on par let alone above Doflamingo is a massive disrespect.

If Cracker is shown on par or above Doflamingo, that shows Cracker is also above bums like Queen, Jack, Jozu and Vista too.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 19, 2024 ---

since he lost in Dressrosa

He lost to Boundman who will beat Queen and Jack much worse.

Boundman overpowered Big Mom hakified arm. Boundman low diffs either Queen/Jack.

Boundman is also physically much stronger than Jozu who cannot break free from parasite.

And no Boundman struggling against Cracker only shows Cracker will punk Queen, Jack and Jozu too.

 

[kkck]

Doflamingo can pupeteer the cookie soldiers, as well as turn the cookie into string so Idk how this debate ever came up.
Cracker is not even a remotely popular character, there is zero reason for this defense all the time.

Doflamingo has excellent combat feats through the entire Manga, like completely toying with Atmos and halting Diamond Jozu like nothing, or walking around with his own organs shred to soup and only fixed by his own ad-hoc nano surgery.

The lenght of a fight is not an indicator for anything and Luffy vs Kizaru recently should have proven that.
Cracker's ability is stalling. In close combat, he looked way worse than Doflamingo and only survived thanks to an armor that he could not repair in-fight.
It was a stupid move, yes he overpowered base Luffy by recklessly charging in, but anyone could do that with base Luffy who pre aCoO, chances are high Vergo could...Cracker lost his armor and didn't manage to do shit with his sneak attack, that was the result of that clash. He only lunged at Luffy twice, first was a sneack attack while Luffy believed he annihilated Cracker just before, the second time was his downfall in humiliating fashion.

Even going by the "card theme", Doflamingo should be above King, just saying...

But end of the day, all of these characters are in the same group, which is below Admiral and above Base Commander VAs. Whose atop or bottom of that group is of little concern to the overall story anymore as we've moved past it. I just don't think the internal ranks of the YC ever meant anything beyond their respective organizations, so basically:

For Kaido: King > Queen > Jack
For Big Mom (and these aren't even hierarchical just inference from bounties and common sense): Katakuri > Smoothie > Cracker > Snack/Perospero

And that's pretty much it, the other Yonko don't even have such a system. You can't even safely infer Smoothie > Jack from it, let alone use it as constitutional baseline for eight different organizations. If you look at it from a macroscopical perspective, all of the Yonko's top officers belong in the same tier anyways.

I'm sure doflamingo could puppeteer the cookie soldiers but can he control every soldier cracker can make? He can make them nigh instantly and in vast quantities and they have enough autonomy to wander around big mom's territory and do work. Not idea if awakenings work on things brought into existence by other devil fruits.

I don't see how cracker's popularity is in any way relevant.

Of course doflamingo has excellent combat feats but that they don't put him above cracker. And in fairness, he never confronted jozu directly (he sneaked up on him to trap him) and we have no idea of how atmos compares to anyone specific. And as I've said, doflamingo couldn't handle G4 in close combat at all. most times luffy even got close doflamingo ended up punched halfway through dressrosa. This is in pretty stark contrast to cracker who was pretty comfortable lunging at luffy, attacking and not taking hits. All the while it's not unrealistic to think all it took was one punch from luffy to win the fight (though the attack that took out cracker was way stronger than a single G4 punch all things considered). Cracker's haki was strong enough for luffy to comment on it, his speed was enough to not immediately eat a punch when in proximity to luffy and had incredible skill with his devil fruit (I feel like people try to downplay his fruit as simply being hax). Cracker definitely was more than a staller. Doflamingo got worn down and that definitely matter in luffy's eventual victory but the only reason luffy survived the fight against cracker is nami hard countering his ability. Without nami luffy would have lost to cracker without cracker breaking a sweat or taking a hit.

 

[BlackTiger]

he never confronted jozu directly (he sneaked up on him to trap him)

Nope Doflamingo was in front of Jozu. You see in these panels Doflamingo is beside Crocodile. Jozu is charging to Crocodile who is beside Doflamingo. Doflamingo is in front of Jozu.

Jozu just has terrible CoO and he is physically just weak not as strong as Boundman who can overpower parasite. Sneak attack does not mean much tbh. It means in a fair fight, it would take longer for Doflamingo to parasite Jozu and in the end Jozu still cannot break free from parasite. He is helpless.

 

[Fox666]

Why are you assuming Doflamingo used Parasaito on Luffy?

Parasaito is a small needle-like string that penetrates the neck of a person, presumably it hits the spinal cord

Also note that Doflamingo jumped behind Jozu's neck

I find it hard to believe anyone could avoid the effects of Parasaito, unless they have an ability like Law

You can clearly see that Luffy had multiple strings attached to him, while his head is limp, which looks nothing like Parasaito

I assume Parasaito is not easy to use against a powerful opponent, unless they are big like Jozu, which Devil Fruit hinders his movement

 

[kkck]

hmm, good call on parasaito specifically targeting the spine, I either never noticed or forgot about that. Doflamingo did jump behind jozu's neck though given jozu's position it's not like there were that many choices. Add to that the rather unnatural position he was in, he pretty much ceased all movement. No idea of whether the strength of the target affects it's effectiveness. Most people it was used on were caught off guard, perhaps an experienced opponent with his guard up would be able to prevent the string from attaching.

 

[Fox666]

I suppose Haki would protect you against it, but not after it's already in effect.

 

[McNuss]

That's just some good old powercreep...

Doflamingo was a top-tier back then, but since he lost in Dressrosa, he turned out to be one of the weakest Shichibukai, and below most Yonko commanders

No, he didn't. Doflamingo beats anyone but Katakuri.
Cracker was a small minor antagonist. The lenght of a fight is completely irrelevant. Akainu vs Whitebeard was two seconds, Akainu passed out but Whitebeard took lethal damage. Cracker vs Akainu would probably take longer, does that mean Cracker > Whitebeard?
There is no reason to apply powercreep logic to a small sidevillain like that, it'd be the same as saying Mr. 5 > Arlong or Foxy > Enel.
Heck Doflamingo can fly and Cracker has no range attacks, he really can't win at all, zero percentage chance of victory.

Most Shishibukai are above most YC but it doesn't matter since end of the day you end up in the same tier anyways

Without nami luffy would have lost to cracker without cracker breaking a sweat or taking a hit.

Naah. The puppets don't have Haki and likely aren't anywhere as tough as the armor. Luffy just has to use stronger attacks and when he crumbled them he can eat them for more G4s.

Cracker couldn't deal damage anymore once his armor is broken. The sheer fact that Nami could participate in that fight with just some Homies to protect her makes this pretty clear.

 

[Fox666]

The lenght of a fight is completely irrelevant.

You are the one bringing that up...

Cracker vs Akainu would probably take longer, does that mean Cracker > Whitebeard?

Quite sure the lava would just melt Cracker's armor along with him...

it'd be the same as saying Mr. 5 > Arlong or Foxy > Enel.

That's not the same.

Luffy defeated Doflamingo with Gear 4, but had trouble with other enemies. And now the Shichibukai have bounties of billions.

Heck Doflamingo can fly and Cracker has no range attacks, he really can't win at all, zero percentage chance of victory.

Swords are ranged weapons in One Piece...

Naah. The puppets don't have Haki and likely aren't anywhere as tough as the armor.

You mean the Biscuit soldier? Quite sure they are supposed to be the same as the main one.

 

[Bandit99]

Not sure if this has been discussed before but do y’all think the 3 OG admirals would low diff Kaido 3v1?

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Not sure if this has been discussed before but do y’all think the 3 OG admirals would low diff Kaido 3v1?

yeah if 3 v 1 def low diff. akainu alone would be tough 1v1 for Kaido.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Let it be known that THIS particular master swordsman is a FRAUD and he is clearly meant to reflect the style of another master swordsman in the current OP timeline (i.e. the feather cap and fancy pomp)

What does this say about the character he is meant to call to the viewers mind?

Let us pause for reflection

 

[shailks]

Let it be known that THIS particular master swordsman is a FRAUD and he is clearly meant to reflect the style of another master swordsman in the current OP timeline (i.e. the feather cap and fancy pomp)

What does this say about the character he is meant to call to the viewers mind?

Let us pause for reflection

Mihawk low diffs 99% of OP verse though.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Mihawk low diffs 99% of OP verse though.

This man was also said to low diff 99% of all swordsmen... ended up being a fraud anyway

And I didn't name names.

Curious that you went straight to Mihawk?