@King Moe
Like I said, I've stayed away for a reason. Delusions, bias and lack of objectivity leads to toxic debates. Sanji & Zoro always had a healthy rivalry in the fandom. Fandom at a point in time could argue that they could even take their captain out pre War Summit. & Its kinda going back to that But Sanji fanboys aren't admitting he's been getting shafted Post Time Skip, While Zoro or any other support member has not.
And honestly Zoro feats have nothing what so ever to do with Sanji. He is his own character and not just some support type fighter. Oda has not written Sanji to display any new found secret technique or haymacker attacks. Beating up Bobbins is not impressive, blocking Daifuku's fenie Swing is something we hope and expect minimally Sanji can do, Speed feat vs oven only thing that impressed me as a fan, and the jelly bean dodge. Ranzo knockout is nothing to psuedo celebrate about either, theres plenty of 100k tier lv pirates in the BM pirates. But reasonably you have to compare this fact to the other fighters in the group...Luffy vs Doffy an all out showdown showed us his new Ace up his sleeve G4; We saw G4 vs Cracker again & even more Luffy Reveals Snake Man version. Zoro after Yeti cool bros slip up, has still not shown the need to go all out, While owning Pica a pretty strong DF user, resisting an countering Admirals attack! With light scuffles, and showed us a new kool asf sword move.
It also doesn't matter if someone likes Zoro more than Sanji. They are still a fan of Sanji; & realize objectively he's falling behind, it's. More entertaining to know Zoro vs Sanji would be high diff for whoever, but its honestly blantant that it's like mid diff for Zoro w/O the raid suit...i personally miss Sanji being a lot closer in fighting prowness & capability as Luffy & Zoro.
Interpreting the manga to fit your likes or fiction of the contexts of the plot is, your choice. But Sanji is a dull gold nugget that Oda needs to polish.
That's more your line of thought than majority especially Canon. Sanji fans can admit flaws, but he hasn't done anything lacking nor Zoro has put out he that above. Have you seen his actions? He can't handle serious opponents like Fujitora and Hawkins while can't event cut the Birdcage of Doflamingo. He face more fodder enemies while Sanji faces serious opponents more with latest the defeat of Page One. Idk where you think Zoro is now beyond Sanji as neither never shown 100% at all. Also big stretch that Zoro can compare to Luffy now as he still shown nothing he can keep up especially G4th lvl. He is equal to Sanji which is emphasized plainly by Oda in the series. Their bounties are close with Sanji surpassing him, there was a cover page of beating each other up, and now they causing trouble with Luffy in Wano and only members doing it.
They been equals for awhile and that never change. If they fought, probably extreme different to a tie. Idk where you think Zoro is at Luffy's lvl or close, but with who he face and lately, he barely is. Zoro is at Sanji's lvl even now who the latter might be stronger than him as so far he defeated a Top 6 while Zoro struggle with Hawkins not even apart of the group. Until Zoro face some serious and defeat him, his hype isn't up there as before.
Sanji has feats without RS he can do while same with it. It's not like Zoro who if he loses his swords, he helpless. Oda done fine with his character and nothing real bad about it as the issue is we want full fighting from him more and probably get it this arc. We got a fight with him and defeat of higher up, so we can expect more of his performance as the arc goes on.
Hody, Hyozou, Monet, and Pica do not compare to Vergo, Doflamingo, Daifuku, Oven, and so on. Nothing said Zoro is stronger or he didn't have stronger opoonents, he has easier opponents. Plus he still got slammed by Fujitora, and are you seriously counting building cutting feat? He did that before pre-timeskip.
Actually yes, in the first volumes it was emphasized that CHopper was a great scholar informed on various animal and plant species, even those that I have never seen live, as a good doctor.
Now he whimperes, makes the mascot cuddly and applies two random bandages.
From monster feared by everyone with powerful transformations, he moved to mascots with cuddly transformations.
Well jeah... Oda seemed to forgotsome dreams from the SHs. Namis World Map wasnt really mentioned since how many chapters? All Blue was changed to invisibility it seems. Chopper doctor skills are outmatched by Law and other Devil Fruits... its kinda sad.
I hope spammers get their post deleted for replying to every and any single post; With non factual or condescending tones..Sheesh, after months of talking to a brick wal,
Who has time to bait and enter a flame war..to no avail.
Sorry Mods, it's excessive. Even when we the fandom made a flame/bait thread just to talk Shit to each other, post still get deleted..
Come on, now. Go read 20pages of the thread, and there's only 1 common denominator.
Like, i said before. If this thread is still standing. I'll be back when Sanji has further developments to his character.
I hope spammers get their post deleted for replying to every and any single post; With non factual or condescending tones..Sheesh, after months of talking to a brick wal,
Who has time to bait and enter a flame war..to no avail.
Sorry Mods, it's excessive. Even when we the fandom made a flame/bait thread just to talk Shit to each other, post still get deleted..
Come on, now. Go read 20pages of the thread, and there's only 1 common denominator.
Like, i said before. If this thread is still standing. I'll be back when Sanji has further developments to his character.
You don't have to post about it as your post can potential bring the situation back. Lets all just move on about it and post maturely with facts and logic instead of leading to argument again. It won't get us anywhere but run around in circles and deletion from mods.
Now gonna move on to new topic now. That is since Sanji defeated PO, I can see him potentially fighting Drake next and maybe Kyoshiro since he personally mess with his people. I can sense interesting matchups along the way out of it.
You don't have to post about it as your post can potential bring the situation back. Lets all just move on about it and post maturely with facts and logic instead of leading to argument again. It won't get us anywhere but run around in circles and deletion from mods.
Now gonna move on to new topic now. That is since Sanji defeated PO, I can see him potentially fighting Drake next and maybe Kyoshiro since he personally mess with his people. I can sense interesting matchups along the way out of it.
I have doubts about fighting Kyoshiro. First, I think it is obvious that he didn't kill Komuraski, and he saw the paper with the attack plan on it. It's also known that he took over the mob there 20 years ago, after Oden's death. I think he's a disguised scabbard, and he'll help them, not fight against them.
X Drake could be a fight for him, but it depends on what Oda has planned for King and Queen. I still have a feeling Zoro and Sanji take them on.
You are refusing to look at the context. There was no time to beat a strong opponent like P1 because Drake and Hawkins were already on their way and the recovery from ancient Zoans IS incredible.
Then Sanji on the next page says he'll take care of him quickly. And he fights him. Are you really implying that nah, he just ended up running away? What textual basis do you have for that?
The only way to say Sanji didn't beat him is to ignore literally everything you read in the manga for your fanboy wishes, all because what? If Sanji wins does Zoro suffer somehow? This is beyond dumb.
Then Sanji on the next page says he'll take care of him quickly. And he fights him. Are you really implying that nah, he just ended up running away? What textual basis do you have for that?
The only way to say Sanji didn't beat him is to ignore literally everything you read in the manga for your fanboy wishes, all because what? If Sanji wins does Zoro suffer somehow? This is beyond dumb.
Actually thats why we tend to say he didnt really beat him yet. If he cant beat him fast enough, running is his best bet. Like i said, we never really saw a defeated Page1 YET. Thats whats disturbed me most of the latest chapters, just one panel with his unconscious ass and we would be happy. All we really saw, was that Sanjis previous kicks didnt even left a mark on Page1. We saw him "groaaaaaa" in pain before but right after that... nothing.
Most of the guys here want that Sanji did defeat Page1. But we want to SEE it, not off panel "jeah it seems like he won". Espeacially after Page1 having such an friggin awesome design, it feels just wasted. So my money is on, Sanji couldnt take him down fast enough, decided to retreat and we have a rematch later on.
Actually thats why we tend to say he didnt really beat him yet. If he cant beat him fast enough, running is his best bet. Like i said, we never really saw a defeated Page1 YET. Thats whats disturbed me most of the latest chapters, just one panel with his unconscious ass and we would be happy. All we really saw, was that Sanjis previous kicks didnt even left a mark on Page1. We saw him "groaaaaaa" in pain before but right after that... nothing.
Most of the guys here want that Sanji did defeat Page1. But we want to SEE it, not off panel "jeah it seems like he won". Espeacially after Page1 having such an friggin awesome design, it feels just wasted. So my money is on, Sanji couldnt take him down fast enough, decided to retreat and we have a rematch later on.
I disagree 100% with your statement that most here want him to. Like, if I could go higher than 100% i would. People love the argument, and they are so invested in it, in arguing that Zoro is greater (as if one characters strength has anything to do with the others), that they will just move on to insulting something else. "Oh, that enemy wasn't strong in reality".
I disagree 100% with your statement that most here want him to. Like, if I could go higher than 100% i would. People love the argument, and they are so invested in it, in arguing that Zoro is greater (as if one characters strength has anything to do with the others), that they will just move on to insulting something else. "Oh, that enemy wasn't strong in reality".
Well i skipped the last sites here, since i didnt want to read the same arguments over and over, but in my experience Zoro is mostly brought up by Moe to downplay critics on Sanji. Then a Zoro vs. Sanji ensues and most people tend to forget how it started. Atleast thats how discussions went here for a long time. (Also thanks to Nik who always takes the bait)
I have doubts about fighting Kyoshiro. First, I think it is obvious that he didn't kill Komuraski, and he saw the paper with the attack plan on it. It's also known that he took over the mob there 20 years ago, after Oden's death. I think he's a disguised scabbard, and he'll help them, not fight against them.
X Drake could be a fight for him, but it depends on what Oda has planned for King and Queen. I still have a feeling Zoro and Sanji take them on.
Not saying final opponent, more like fights before the final battle as I expect this be like a mixture of Enies Lobby Arc and Marineford War Arc with Strawhats including Sanji facing many fights before their final opponent. I see Drake X as oneo f his fights before the final battle and maybe Kyoshiro unless he turn out to be a 'good guy' instead or someone with agenda if Komuraski wasn't really kill by him and like you said about him.
Sanji and Zoro will probably face them (Though more so of Orochi as he seems quite a threat with his DF power).
Well i skipped the last sites here, since i didnt want to read the same arguments over and over, but in my experience Zoro is mostly brought up by Moe to downplay critics on Sanji. Then a Zoro vs. Sanji ensues and most people tend to forget how it started. Atleast thats how discussions went here for a long time. (Also thanks to Nik who always takes the bait)
Please don't bring it back up and also never brought Zoro into this much unless someone does. Also kinda too late about Zoro being mention here as on the creation post, he was mention heavily by the 'creator' already. Though let's not start back up this war between them and get on talking about what the topic is more please.
Not saying final opponent, more like fights before the final battle as I expect this be like a mixture of Enies Lobby Arc and Marineford War Arc with Strawhats including Sanji facing many fights before their final opponent. I see Drake X as oneo f his fights before the final battle and maybe Kyoshiro unless he turn out to be a 'good guy' instead or someone with agenda if Komuraski wasn't really kill by him and like you said about him.
Sanji and Zoro will probably face them (Though more so of Orochi as he seems quite a threat with his DF power).
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Please don't bring it back up and also never brought Zoro into this much unless someone does. Also kinda too late about Zoro being mention here as on the creation post, he was mention heavily by the 'creator' already. Though let's not start back up this war between them and get on talking about what the topic is more please.
Actually thats why we tend to say he didnt really beat him yet. If he cant beat him fast enough, running is his best bet. Like i said, we never really saw a defeated Page1 YET. Thats whats disturbed me most of the latest chapters, just one panel with his unconscious ass and we would be happy. All we really saw, was that Sanjis previous kicks didnt even left a mark on Page1. We saw him "groaaaaaa" in pain before but right after that... nothing.
Most of the guys here want that Sanji did defeat Page1. But we want to SEE it, not off panel "jeah it seems like he won". Espeacially after Page1 having such an friggin awesome design, it feels just wasted. So my money is on, Sanji couldnt take him down fast enough, decided to retreat and we have a rematch later on.
What's the point of Sanji fighting Page One if he planned on running? Didn't he choose to fight so Page One would leave the innocent townspeople alone in trying to find whoever attacked one of the flunkies?
I could see the retreat happening only if Sanji knows Page One is going after him or if Hawkins and Drake were about to join.
What's the point of Sanji fighting Page One if he planned on running? Didn't he choose to fight so Page One would leave the innocent townspeople alone in trying to find whoever attacked one of the flunkies?
Page One is down. I already put down statements if he was active. Plus most crucial thing would Sanji said something about it to the others. Doubt he won't tell others if he still around dangerously as well leave innocence people to get hurt. Won't be surprise if we shown Hawkins and Drake looking at his beaten body in the end when they arrive.
Then Sanji on the next page says he'll take care of him quickly. And he fights him. Are you really implying that nah, he just ended up running away? What textual basis do you have for that?
The only way to say Sanji didn't beat him is to ignore literally everything you read in the manga for your fanboy wishes, all because what? If Sanji wins does Zoro suffer somehow? This is beyond dumb.
What choice would he have than run if Drake and Hawkins showed up? Are you blind to that possibility?
My fanboy wishes and Zoro have nothing to do with that possibility. Like @Sachsenhesse explained, all we want is a confirmation but that seems too much to ask for from Sanji worshippers...
Moe-kun is a pro troll and I dont mind taking the bait but he is the one claiming things as facts, things we dont have confirmation for. Hold your horses until we get some confirmation but judging on factual ancient zoan recovery that was not the last we saw from PageOne.
The thing is, storytelling wise it would make little sense to not let Sanji win before their arrival. It was emphasized too clearly by the author for us to doubt Sanji's success.
Reread chapters 930-931 with open mind and see if Sanji's retreat makes sense. It could be the case but chances are too slim to consider seriously.
Sanji's subpar performance (arguable) is one thing but this has nothing to do with that. It's just common sense to assume that Sanji successfully finished his mission.
I actually think it was terribly executed by Oda.
In the final page of 930 Sanji acts very cocky and makes the claims that he makes - disposing of P1 quickly and disguising himself.
The first page of 931 he still claims that it's a disguise even tho he never used it before and it wasn't a disguise for siblings and then assumes that raid suit has the power to help. That's a big 180° turn from acting cocky to assuming things.
PageOne seemed totally unaffected by Sanji's kicks so it's hard to swallow that he disposed of him quickly considering that P1 is a durable ancient Zoan.
My bet is that the last hit which Sanji landed from the sky managed to knock PageOne unconscious but at that moment Drake and Hawkins arrived and Sanji stealthed away before they could notice him. Even if the scenario that you think happened is true we saw how fast Zoans regenerate and get back up on their feet. I am willing to bet that P1 is well and kicking in a few days if he really was defeated fully by Sanji in such a short amount of time.
All I want is the confirmation of the outcome and if Sanji indeed won it would be nice to see how.
I think "most" of us already know the deal with Sanji, and clearly aren't happy with how Oda is handling him. Surely, there's other things to discuss.
We've more or less agreed by majority that Oda hasn't made Sanji strong relative to his opponents since the New World, and has just misrepresented him badly in general.
There's no need to keep trying to justifying that stance to 1 person who disagrees. I'm probably the last person that should say this, but maybe we should change the topic somewhat like what would we actually like to see from Sanji? the thread has probably argued the same point for 30 chapters, lol.
Me personally, I will give Sanji the benefit of the doubt that he's now able to use Hardened Armament since the manga kind of implies it... just wish Oda didn't require us to zoom so much to notice. I'd really prefer if Sanji didn't use the RS anymore other than for covert missions to gather Intel. I'd like to see Sanji get stronger physically, I'd like to see his Observation become stronger... I'd like to be able to look at Sanji and say this is the guy who will defeat Kizaru not via cheap tricks, but because he's a force to be reckoned with.
Sanji having to use the RS in a way confirms what Judge said. He's all heart, but lacks the strength of a warrior. I want to see Sanji prove he's an elite fighter without having to rely on the RS. In fact, I'd rather Sanji used the RS solely to perv on women as a mockery to Germa tech as nothing more than a tool for silly purposes and actually just rely on his ability to fight to win like Garp does with his brute strength.
Some people think I hated Sanji, it's not that I do, at least my intention is simply to state facts as accurately as possible. The way things are going, I feel like once Jimbei becomes a part of the crew assuming Big Mom hasn't turned him into a Homie or killed him, I feel like Jimbei is being set to stand above Sanji at this point, and that's unfair.
I could be wrong, but damn Oda's poor portrayal of Sanji. The nosebleeding in Fishman Island... like it's funny, but common. If Oda's going to make him such a gag, at least make him just as formidable to justify and balance things out.
The first page of 931 he still claims that it's a disguise even tho he never used it before and it wasn't a disguise for siblings and then assumes that raid suit has the power to help. That's a big 180° turn from acting cocky to assuming things.
To be fair, I would say the fact that he's put on the suit is not so much a disguise, but it questions his identity. I doubt Hawkins or Drake would know about a character who fought with a combat suit on. More so, it's not like anyone knows that Sanji is from East blue. You're right it's not really a disguise, but it's not something that can currently be associated with Sanji. Even if Page One says he's blonde, but fights with a combat suit, it still wouldn't sound like Sanji.
Also, unless Oda has Sanji's next fight prove that he's grown significantly stronger by showcasing his Black Armament and having his opponents actually show some sort of fear or respect for his power, it won't justify Sanji's confidence in using something that he's never used before without a back-up plan right after Law said don't engage unless you can be certain of a quick victory and no injuries. He also did say he was just testing it out, so hopefully, that suggests he is able to defeat Page One.
