Fox666,
Whitebeard did not use the Gura Gura no Mi in his clash with Shanks DOT
Can physical strength cut the sky? No. Can vibrations cut the sky? Yes. If i use your argument idea, this is what i know:
Did Croc use his sand or arid ability when facing Mihawk? No. Did Mihawk use his swordsmanship when facing Croc? Yes. Which means Mihawk is not Croc's equal. According to your kind of argument.
But no. I won't use that argument, since i don't accept your argument about WB not using his full power.
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BlackHair,
before answering your question, i must refuse your thinking that "equal" or "rival" refer to exact same main skill. There's no reason to me why Croc, or Enel, or Smoker, or Kidd, or Law, can't be Luffy's rival or equal.
About nr2, I don't understand why you are stating Shanks as a swordsman, yet expecting him to use other skills. Vista, Mihawk, Zoro and other named swordsman in the entire series never used any other skills besides swordsmanship. That's why they are called swordsman.
Anyway, you are basing your "Shanks is not a swordsman" argument on non existing facts. While Im basing "Shanks is a swordsman" argument on existing facts.
My answer's Haki. Jozu, Marco, and WB himself even give Shanks' Haki a compliment. Maybe you consider Haki as a support skill that can be used
only if you channel it on some weapon, but i consider it as a whole other skill. Just like WB's quake, which can be channeled to his bisento, yet even if so it's not called polearm or bisento techniques and thus is considered a whole other skill instead. Which is why i state Shanks' main skill is not swordsmanship. That's my argument considering Haki as Shanks' main skill. It's not my expectations or wish or maybes, since i consider Haki, a skill Shanks already have by now, as a skill on its own and not included in Shanks' swordsmanship.
On the other hand, Shanks has never been referred to as a master swordsman, or even good swordsman, by anyone in the manga. The title Yonkou or Red-Hair was more often mentioned and held more significant meaning when mentioning Shanks.
Im sry Croco high tier? That's totally absurd. Croco was the the first major opponent! That alone proofs that Croco is not high-tier. In the 3rd fight Luffy was poisoned and yet Croco was not able to match his speed and physical-strength
Croc's first bounty was also 80 million beri. People can progress, right?
Going by ur logic Luffy is already high tier. Yet he was shown greatly outmatched in this war. Can you see past Luffy (<- less speed and strength, also no gears) winning against a high-tier after three matches? Like Mihawk, Kizaru, Akainu? Hell no!
No, Luffy's still mid-tier in my opinion. Luffy strategize and use Croc's weakness fully. The strategy (Luffy using water, blood) and luck (Croc's not killing him, twice. Croc's underestimating him enough to make him think of further strategies) played big role in Croc's defeat. Do you think we can set example from enemies Luffy already defeat? I don't think so. Enel was high-tier due to his DF power and mantra, yet Luffy used his extreme luck in his rubber properties and golden ball who Enel himself gave to him (poor Enel, need to be handicapped so much). Shiki (in anime, but incorporated by Oda) was high-tier, yet Luffy beaten him using bird to fly (??? i haven't watched so i dunno the exact battle), and using lightning to further empower his Gigant Axe. It's strategy (bird-riding) and luck (there happened to be a lightning storm that moment) that brought Luffy to defeat the big bosses. And Oda gave Luffy those two, strategy and luck, to defeat big bosses, because he struggled to protect peace, freedom etc, and an unfair fight and strategy was justified because Luffy was the protagonist trying to save many people from the big bosses.
I don't get ur understanding. It's totally screwed up.
Those clashes means crap. This war was chaotic, like a royal rumble, hardly any 1vs1. Opponents switched faster than I can switch my underwear. Ppl can appear from behind, blind spots etc. Mihawk is swinging at Luffy & co, as Croco interrupts.
Mihawk fired a slash at WB, which Jozu parried. Though every reader was expecting a fight between those, they fought different opponents. Croco clashed with Jozu, Flamingo, Mihawk and he was also seen helping Jinbei, Luffy and Ace. Crco never fought any battles to end, heck all we know is that clashed. Seriously how can you put Croco based on a simple clash equal to Mihawk? This is ridiculous. The only 1vs1 was Mihawk vs Vista.
According to my understanding Croco though being a mid-tier, should be able to stand his own against a high-tier. But in a long run, he would go down for sure. And facing guys like Mihawk or Flamingo, Im not even sure if he can scratch them. His only strength is his logia, which is so far the weakest in the entire series.
Yet, those rumble happened to all of them. Dofla's power and level is mysterious, there's no proof that he is stronger than Croc. He attacked Croc from behind, didn't work, and attack Croc head-on, they clashed. From the clash, there was not a single panel signing Croc in pain or losing in the battle. Are you saying after the scene changed and focused on Luffy, Croc and Dofla stopped the fight and has a casual conversation?
("You're weak, Croc. I was holding back. Will you surrender? Fufufu" "Yead, i'm weaker than you. I was lucky you didn't use your full strength against me, but i must maintain my composure in front of the readers")
That kind of conversation without kept fighting? I don't think so. At least we have the picture of them clashing, and we can measure their blow quality at least in that scene, instead of depend on no.1 swordsman title and ignoring the rest. Please read my post to Schabrak below also, maybe my point is clearer. About Yonkou title also.
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Schabrak,
Yet your forget, that Shichibukai aren't allowed to have a crew and therefore are accepted as such single individuals spreading fear into "virgin" GrandLine pirates. They may be silver medalists, but we don't know if those titles are still appropriate.
And Yonkou required to have a thousand crews minimum? THEN he/she is reigned as a Yonkou? You think WB's turf is fearsome primarily because his crews? No, Brownbeard wasn't afraid anymore to step into WB's territory
because WB's dead. This is an example of individual Yonkou power, and Shanks has the same stated title. Is Whitebeard title "Whitebeard and crew, The Yonkou"? No. "Whitebeard the Yonkou". Is Shanks' title, "Red-Hair and crew, the Yonkou"? No, it's "Red-Hair The Yonkou". The Yonkou is the one reigning, not primarily because his crew, but primarily because his own power, just like Whitebeard of Yonkou gave as an example about how a Yonkou title was established. I don't accept argument about "A yonkou is strong because their crews, vast territories, etc", since an example of Yonkou is strongest man in the world.
So it's the perfect example to compare those two individually.
Also reasoning that his crew is reason for him being stronger, doesn't make sense, just as downtalking Mihawk because of some panels of exchanging sword clashes. I would like to see Shanks fight somebody of Vistas class, but Oda didn't give us such. So stop pretentding, that his encounter with Joz or somebody else high ranking would have ended so much different, if we got no way compare those two guys.
Down-talking? Pretending? I have as my support the equal blow against WB and the ability to defend against Akainu's offense, and making Akainu's first shocked face ever to see in the manga. So what proof / support do you have that Shanks is weaker than Mihawk?The unknown ranking of swordsmanship owned by Shanks, since it has never been even stated?
It's not clear if Kizaru had really felt threatened or if it was a joke as always. Yeah Ben Backman could probably fight equaly, but that's not the point here, as we do not know how MIhawk would have fought him, proably like Rayleigh in his prime, as he seems to be his successor in swordman ranking, having a good match with the admiral,[ with every admiral?]
The joke was made with Marco "how scary...Whitebeard Pirates", yet Kizaru continued to attack, right? It's not clear what Kizaru felt? Than i must say: until it's proven otherwise, then my interpretation from Kizaru halting
his chase and attack toward Dragon's son which is a huge sin (as referred by Akainu), is that Kizaru seriously felt threatened by Ben's gunning at him.
About "Akainu > Croc = Shihibukai = Jinbei = Ace"!? WHAT THE FUC*! Stop saying all of he swordsman are equal! That we have no proof of! Your argument is, that since Crocodile attacked Akainu from behind and by so it hasn'd shown him being strong, but Akainu killing Ace by attacking him from behind isn't?
Ace and the admiral exchanged exactly ONE blow, one using a explosion of power, him dying through other circumstances has nothing to do with it, this time not even about dis-/advantages of two fighters, since Ace was in a half dead state for a week.
I mean the head-on clash, the "The name of this era is Whitebeard!" clash. In that clash, Ace's fire was burned and Akainu stated that magma was able to burn even fire. "My power is superior to yours!" It showed that Akainu's attack quality is higher than that of Ace.
And remember, Ace = Jimbei (from 5-day battle flashback), and from the panels we have seen in this manga, Croc's hook = Dofla's kick. Croc's hook also has the same quality as Mihawk's iceberg-cutting (yes i know) blade, seeing the reaction from those two were not showing pain due to receiving each other's attack (Mihawk: "Crocodile". Croc: "Be careful not to be stepped on, Mihawk"). Akainu had said to Jimbei: "As a Shichibukai, you should know the difference in our power!"
Who would deny that Kuma is no.1 repeller? That Moria is no.1 shadowmaster? That Croc is no.1 sand manipulator? You can't separate a specific skill like swordsmanship from other specific skills just because some are gained from Devil Fruits, some are gained from Hakis, and some are gained from neither. Yet those number ones in their respective abilities, they're all Shichis.
From what we know in the manga, those blows' quality were equal, and to state otherwise because "Mihawk is the no.1 swordsman, so he must be holding back" is a baseless, groundless, non-evident speculation coming only from Mihawk fanatics.
I came to the conclusion that it just doesn't make ANY sense arguing with you, as you are biased on Shanks, sorry I have to mention it again, but everybody else here would probably agree with that.
I must correct, everybody
biased on Mihawk would agree, because they choose to see the unrevealed "maybes" of Mihawk's so-called "true strength" and saying that Mihawk actually saw this war as a game only. Without any proof.
You put Shanks into a misterious "super-level", just because he stopped Akainus attack unlike most other priates. He is just lucky for having such strong haki, which nobody else but WB, Boa and Luffy showed to have.
Nothing mysterious here. I put Shanks at the same level of
Old WB, since the clash at Moby Dick was equal, since the
stated title was equal, and since the all warring sides' response to Red-Hair Pirates announced by Shanks was to end the war like Shanks suggests.
That makes him advantagous, but doesn't proof him to be stronger than Mihawk.
I totally agree with you especially on this statement.
Yet, many Mihawk-supporters wouldn't accept that until what we've seen now, Shanks is more advantageous. Many without proof state that "Mihawk didn't have interest to challenge Shanks anymore due to his one-arm loss, and because Mihawk would surely win so he wasn't interested anymore". I don't accept this "maybe" and "should be" myths. Show me fight scenes between Mihawk and any Shichibukai, and show me the result that stated Mihawk is stronger than other Shichibukai.
