Discussion The Douriki Thread

afromarco005

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I'm not reducing them to anything. Shakki introduced the Supernovas as the 11 pirates on Sabody with Bounties over 100 million, nothing more nothing less. They were classified as a group because of their bounties. They weren't called the Worst Generation until after the Whitebeard War where they caused havok in the New World during the two year timeskip.
Now you admit that they are the worst generation but still intend on reducing them the regular super rookies?


What does Cavendish have to do with this? He didn't accomplish anything after taking the spotlight unlike the Supernovas who were able to eventually gain the name "Worst generation" due to how they became involved in so many issues in the New World. I'm not arguing that they aren't impressive, I'm arguing that you're contradicting yourself by using bounties to downplay someone but then disregard bounties entirely whenever it benefits your argument.
Cavendish has to do that he is a super rookie just like any other supernova, just not as important to the plot cause he is not part of the worst generation, this was even his main gimmick beeing jealous of the infamous worst generation of rookies. Why in the world do you think that those particular rookies were put in the spot light? The will all be super relevant to the plot and are all presented as beeing the most talented rookies in a while, all rivals among themselves.

Pales in comparison my ass, Sanji has always been put on a pedestal with Luffy and Zoro to the point that they've been dubbed the Monster trio based on their monstrous strength. How does this pale in comparison to the bounty based Supernovas that were introduced afterwards?
Now this is only in regards to the crew adventures. When the focus is on the crew in general compared to other crews like in the Shabondy where all the supernova assembled for the first time, only zoro and luffy were relevant and presented as equals/rivals with the other prodigies. No amounts of "if Sanji did X or Y he would be part of the SN group too" will change that fact. Deal with it.

Do you know what wishful thinking even is? There's a difference between grasping at straws senselessly and drawing logical conclusions backed with facts and reasoning. It would be wishful thinking if I was doing the former but I'm doing the latter. In Ennies Lobby Sanji defeated the guy who was virtually equal in power with Zoro's opponent yet after the arc there was a 43 million berry difference between there bounties. Why? Because Zoro was slicing elite captains up while Sanji was out of sight using his brain and opening the gates of justice. Oda decided not to use him as a supernova because he wanted Sanji's identity to be kept a secret so that the vinsmoke reveal would be shocking, this shouldn't be that hard to understand especially when Oda stopped using the Sanji drawing on his bounty poster.
Yet you make assumptions that Sanji would have been a part of the worst generation when it is just like your opinion dude, unless you are one of those who count their opinion or majority of the fanbase's opinion as facts in this case my bad.

I don't think that Oda planned the Vinsmokes appearance this far ahead but again that's your opinion not facts, in my opinion the sanji bounty poster thing was a long running gag with him.

Now I also think that there is a reason why zoro was the one tanking luffy's pain back in thriller bark cause like it or not there is a gap between Zoro and Sanji, the kind of gap that makes one of them a supernova level fighter and the other not.
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It was 2 on 1 though, so that wasn't fair fight to begin with and Katakuri stop it and rectify it by stopping her and hurting himself to be on fair grounds like before since Luffy was holding up so far until Flambe was attacking him same time as Katakuri, so Luffy was having harder time with two people, not one person as much. You can't put that against him.

It is as look who he be facing in Wano arc and prove it more as we all know Luffy going to beat Kaido in the end. Though his bounty still fits for defeating Cracker and Katakuri though in the end, but not Yonko since Big Mom and Kaido still have higher bounties. He probably get raise again once he defeats them.
Yet Luffy had no problem 2v1 Crackers and they even said that there is no rules in a pirate fight, like I said CIS
 

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Yet Luffy had no problem 2v1 Crackers and they even said that there is no rules in a pirate fight, like I said CIS
Technically Cracker wasn't a 'true' 1 on 1 fight as he made multiple strong soldiers to gang up on Luffy while Cracker seat back and relax while few times takes advantage while Luffy was dealing with them. So Nami coming in to help even the odds with her ability. She never touch Cracker, just his Cracker Army, so still was Luffy vs him, so it takes nothing away him beating him as just made it more fair for Cracker to face him instead of hiding behind his soldiers.
 

afromarco005

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Technically Cracker wasn't a 'true' 1 on 1 fight as he made multiple strong soldiers to gang up on Luffy while Cracker seat back and relax while few times takes advantage while Luffy was dealing with them. So Nami coming in to help even the odds with her ability. She never touch Cracker, just his Cracker Army, so still was Luffy vs him, so it takes nothing away him beating him as just made it more fair for Cracker to face him instead of hiding behind his soldiers.
So... cracker and Katakuri douriki in your opinon?
 

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Now you admit that they are the worst generation but still intend on reducing them the regular super rookies?
What? I never said they weren't the worst generation? You wrongfully said they were introduced as the worst generation which isn't true, they never were called the Worst generation until after the whitebeard war. Nothing that I've said is wrong, do you want me to link you the panels where Shakki introduces the supernovas?



Cavendish has to do that he is a super rookie just like any other supernova, just not as important to the plot cause he is not part of the worst generation, this was even his main gimmick beeing jealous of the infamous worst generation of rookies. Why in the world do you think that those particular rookies were put in the spot light? The will all be super relevant to the plot and are all presented as beeing the most talented rookies in a while, all rivals among themselves.
Again, what is the relevance behind bringing this up? You're basically reiterating what I already said anyway.


Now this is only in regards to the crew adventures. When the focus is on the crew in general compared to other crews like in the Shabondy where all the supernova assembled for the first time, only zoro and luffy were relevant and presented as equals/rivals with the other prodigies. No amounts of "if Sanji did X or Y he would be part of the SN group too" will change that fact. Deal with it.
Yes, because of their bounties, the very same concept that you seem to hate when it comes to power scaling. Zoro and Sanji were presented as near equals in terms of actual power pre timeskip with Zoro being only slightly ahead of Sanji in arcs like Alabasta and Ennies Lobby yet you're gonna insist on using a bounty based group to downplay Sanji, the behind the scenes stealthy and tactical Straw Hat who's face Oda wanted to conceal for a major reveal.
Yet you make assumptions that Sanji would have been a part of the worst generation when it is just like your opinion dude, unless you are one of those who count their opinion or majority of the fanbase's opinion as facts in this case my bad.

I don't think that Oda planned the Vinsmokes appearance this far ahead but again that's your opinion not facts, in my opinion the sanji bounty poster thing was a long running gag with him.

Now I also think that there is a reason why zoro was the one tanking luffy's pain back in thriller bark cause like it or not there is a gap between Zoro and Sanji, the kind of gap that makes one of them a supernova level fighter and the other not.
It's an opinion based on logic and facts that you have failed to prove wrong. Here, I'll give you a chance to actually change my mind: Why do you think Sanji's bounty wasn't nearly as high as Zoro's after EL despite the fact that they beat enemies on similar levels? Keep in mind though, "because Oda believes Zoro is more important" is a shit answer and I will stop the debate immediately if you try to pull that.

@bold: There have been multiple hints and foreshadowing about Sanji's secret childhood and the possibility of him being a prince since as early as the Alabasta arc. Oda is known for planning way more ahead than the average mangaka, Sanji's identity not being revealed in Ennies Lobby is no mere coincidence.

Zoro taking Luffy's pain is not what makes him supernova level lmao. I don't believe Sanji could have survived that, but that means nothing. No other supernova could replicate that level of undying loyalty and monster level endurance, there is 0 point in bringing that scene up.
 

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Get in a Sanji vs. Zoro thread damn it.

Lmao these images you post are hilarious.

My boi every single thread around here is a Sanji vs Zoro thread sadly. My original argument was about Sanji and Supernovas, Zoro just happened to get dragged into this even though that was the last thing I wanted. In the first place I already believe Zoro is stronger than Sanji and frankly I like Zoro more so there isn't any need for this to be a Sanji vs Zoro discussion.
 

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What? I never said they weren't the worst generation? You wrongfully said they were introduced as the worst generation which isn't true, they never were called the Worst generation until after the whitebeard war. Nothing that I've said is wrong, do you want me to link you the panels where Shakki introduces the supernovas?




Again, what is the relevance behind bringing this up? You're basically reiterating what I already said anyway.



Yes, because of their bounties, the very same concept that you seem to hate when it comes to power scaling. Zoro and Sanji were presented as near equals in terms of actual power pre timeskip with Zoro being only slightly ahead of Sanji in arcs like Alabasta and Ennies Lobby yet you're gonna insist on using a bounty based group to downplay Sanji, the behind the scenes stealthy and tactical Straw Hat who's face Oda wanted to conceal for a major reveal.

It's an opinion based on logic and facts that you have failed to prove wrong. Here, I'll give you a chance to actually change my mind: Why do you think Sanji's bounty wasn't nearly as high as Zoro's after EL despite the fact that they beat enemies on similar levels? Keep in mind though, "because Oda believes Zoro is more important" is a shit answer and I will stop the debate immediately if you try to pull that.

@bold: There have been multiple hints and foreshadowing about Sanji's secret childhood and the possibility of him being a prince since as early as the Alabasta arc. Oda is known for planning way more ahead than the average mangaka, Sanji's identity not being revealed in Ennies Lobby is no mere coincidence.

Zoro taking Luffy's pain is not what makes him supernova level lmao. I don't believe Sanji could have survived that, but that means nothing. No other supernova could replicate that level of undying loyalty and monster level endurance, there is 0 point in bringing that scene up.
I stand by what I said, I don't care that their bounty was above 100 M it could have been anything that is not the point, what I am talking about is those eleven individuals in particular, their overwhelming strenght even compared to other rookies with similar bounty from previous generations, and their importance to the show.

I brought Cavendish as an example to show you that viewing them solely through the lens of their bounty was the wrong approach as Cavendish too was a super rookie with around the same bounty back in the days yet he is nowhere near the worst generation those specific 11 rookies.

If Power level was = to bounty then Cavendish should be on the same level as the worst generation which he clearly isn't.

Zoro taking luffy's pain in and knocking sanji out just before shows not only his determination but that no one else in the crew could have done what he did at this moment and that when things get very serious he has the edge over Sanji and the other members of the crew, this was a decisive moment to set him apart from the rest of the crew imo.
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Get in a Sanji vs. Zoro thread damn it.

I am trying to keep the discussion on topic but it seems that this is turning into another Sanji discussion thread.

I had hope that this one could be more interesting too...
 

King Moe

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So... cracker and Katakuri douriki in your opinon?
Idk, if I have to say for YCs, it be 100,000 for Katakuri and 80,000 for Cracker, but again they aren't about physical too much as they use DF especially Cracker don't try to fight with his true self, so it's hard to determine how dangerous they are compare to Bounties which feel more accurate than doing Douriki with its more obvious flaws.
 

afromarco005

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Idk, if I have to say for YCs, it be 100,000 for Katakuri and 80,000 for Cracker, but again they aren't about physical too much as they use DF especially Cracker don't try to fight with his true self, so it's hard to determine how dangerous they are compare to Bounties which feel more accurate than doing Douriki with its more obvious flaws.
Fine you think bounties is better I get it, no need to repeat it all the time...

Didn't you say that my original predictions were too high yet you have numbers that are pretty much the same as mine? x)
 

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Fine you think bounties is better I get it, no need to repeat it all the time...

Didn't you say that my original predictions were too high yet you have numbers that are pretty much the same as mine? x)
Not to high, just overestimation and underestimation on certain characters.
 

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I stand by what I said, I don't care that their bounty was above 100 M it could have been anything that is not the point, what I am talking about is those eleven individuals in particular, their overwhelming strenght even compared to other rookies with similar bounty from previous generations, and their importance to the show.
Cool? Half the supernovas are featless right now, the only thing we know for sure that separates them from other generations is how involved they are in all the problems in the New World. That's why they are called "the worst".
I brought Cavendish as an example to show you that viewing them solely through the lens of their bounty was the wrong approach as Cavendish too was a super rookie with around the same bounty back in the days yet he is nowhere near the worst generation those specific 11 rookies.
I already countered this, Cavendish did nothing after he momentarily gained the spotlight which separates him from the worst generation who are constantly in the New World issues. Let me give you a good reason why I view them through their bounties. Zoro's bounty, which was already on the lower side on Sabody compared to the rest, remained the same after the whitebeard war yet he was still classified as a member of the Worst gen. In fact he's likely the only one who didn't get a bounty increase. Yet he was still regarded as a member of the gen. You viewing them through their individual strength alone is more flawed than viewing them through their bounty when one of them was inactive yet still remained a member.

Zoro taking luffy's pain in and knocking sanji out just before shows not only his determination but that no one else in the crew could have done what he did at this moment and that when things get very serious he has the edge over Sanji and the other members of the crew, this was a decisive moment to set him apart from the rest of the crew imo.
YES! I NEVER SAID ANYTHING THAT DISAGREES WITH THIS. PLEASE CAN WE KEEP THIS FROM BECOMING ZORO VS SANJI???!! Also I will take your lack of response to my other points as a concession.
 

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Didn't you say that my original predictions were too high yet you have numbers that are pretty much the same as mine? x)
Actually, your numbers seemed kinda low to me, but very ok nonetheless.

For example, Lucci had about 4000 Douriki. This means gear 2 Luffy would be around this figure.
We know that gear third has more raw power than gear second. This means it could easily have at least 'two and a half' more brute force than gear second, breaking giant steel door and all — which gear second wouldn't be able to do.

The 4000 value multiplied by 2.5 will put gear third Douriki's level at 10,000. Or thereabouts.

After time skip, and with the armament haki and hardening, gear second and third's brute force could easily be twice as strong as it was before. Basically, I'm saying there's no way post time skip Luffy wouldn't be at least two times stronger than he was pre time skip, at the barest minimum.

This means 10,000 × 2 will take his Douriki level to 20,000. Or thereabouts.

With the introduction of 'gear-four' which doffy said it tripled the tension of his skin — means gear four Doriki is already at 60,000 (20,000 ×3). Or thereabouts.

Adding THE King Kong gun which i'll say is easily three times as strong as a normal Kong gun (at the barest minimum), the brute Force of the KKG would be 3 × 60,000, which will amount to180,000 Doriki. Or thereabouts.

We've seen Bigmom and Kaido casually brush off a normal gear four 'kong gun' which from the calculation is around 60,000 doriki. This means that at their peak, their Doriki value could be around 200,000 plus.

And this is not farfetched because, if having Sanji in your crew is like having a thousand men, then, having a yonko should at least be like having 20,000 men in your crew. Of which, if we calculate in Doriki level, would be at the barest minimum, 200,000 Doriki, Or more.
 

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Cool? Half the supernovas are featless right now, the only thing we know for sure that separates them from other generations is how involved they are in all the problems in the New World. That's why they are called "the worst".
Now that is incorrect. Their strenght and ruthless nature made them a particular group of rookies all competing against each other. Thus I consider them to be on a general same level (like VA in the marines for ex) No reason for them to be worlds apart in strenght and this includes Bonney imo.

Morgans even implied that among them would most certainly arise the new pirate king.
Now more than ever The worst generation is becoming a main catalyst to the story dont act like they are just another 100 milion rookie generation.

I already countered this, Cavendish did nothing after he momentarily gained the spotlight which separates him from the worst generation who are constantly in the New World issues. Let me give you a good reason why I view them through their bounties. Zoro's bounty, which was already on the lower side on Sabody compared to the rest, remained the same after the whitebeard war yet he was still classified as a member of the Worst gen. In fact he's likely the only one who didn't get a bounty increase. Yet he was still regarded as a member of the gen. You viewing them through their individual strength alone is more flawed than viewing them through their bounty when one of them was inactive yet still remained a member.
How do you know this information? I thought that on the contrary and that is the whole gimmick of cavendish once the worst generation became famous all of his adventures were ignored and he wanted to be on the spotlight again.

But hey lets assume that you are right do you think that every 100m pirates other than Cavendish and the worst generation have suddenly gone out of the radar are they all suddenly inactive? Or were they just not on the same caliber as this exceptional generation of rookies despite initially sharing the same bounty category and if we follow your flawed logic the same strenght?

About Zoro's bounty what is your point? His strenght keeps increasing same as the other supernova but his bounty stayed the same for a while. If anything its another argument in favor of my theory that bounty alone is not to be associated with strenght.

YES! I NEVER SAID ANYTHING THAT DISAGREES WITH THIS. PLEASE CAN WE KEEP THIS FROM BECOMING ZORO VS SANJI???!! Also I will take your lack of response to my other points as a concession.
You are the one who said "Sanji would also be a supernova if X and Y happened, you also are the one who did bring zoro in the equation.

There is no point in responding to some of your "arguments" that have nothing to do with the thread in the first place.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Actually, your numbers seemed kinda low to me, but very ok nonetheless.

For example, Lucci had about 4000 Douriki. This means gear 2 Luffy would be around this figure.
We know that gear third has more raw power than gear second. This means it could easily have at least 'two and a half' more brute force than gear second, breaking giant steel door and all — which gear second wouldn't be able to do.

The 4000 value multiplied by 2.5 will put gear third Douriki's level at 10,000. Or thereabouts.

After time skip, and with the armament haki and hardening, gear second and third's brute force could easily be twice as strong as it was before. Basically, I'm saying there's no way post time skip Luffy wouldn't be at least two times stronger than he was pre time skip, at the barest minimum.

This means 10,000 × 2 will take his Douriki level to 20,000. Or thereabouts.

With the introduction of 'gear-four' which doffy said it tripled the tension of his skin — means gear four Doriki is already at 60,000 (20,000 ×3). Or thereabouts.

Adding THE King Kong gun which i'll say is easily three times as strong as a normal Kong gun (at the barest minimum), the brute Force of the KKG would be 3 × 60,000, which will amount to180,000 Doriki. Or thereabouts.

We've seen Bigmom and Kaido casually brush off a normal gear four 'kong gun' which from the calculation is around 60,000 doriki. This means that at their peak, their Doriki value could be around 200,000 plus.

And this is not farfetched because, if having Sanji in your crew is like having a thousand men, then, having a yonko should at least be like having 20,000 men in your crew. Of which, if we calculate in Doriki level, would be at the barest minimum, 200,000 Doriki, Or more.
But if we consider Sanji to be around 10k wouldnt luffy outputting 60k to 180k be too much in comparison?

The way I see it Base luffy is around sanji's level or higher and gear 4th boosts him to 30-40k. 40 cause gear 4th making him 4 times as strong sounds good to me.
 

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The way I see it Base luffy is around sanji's level or higher and gear 4th boosts him to 30-40k. 40 cause gear 4th making him 4 times as strong sounds good to me.
Not at all — I think.
Gear four increases his brute strength exponentially, while KKG increases that even further (in multiples). That's why he barely lasts 30 minutes in that form.
As an example, I think four times his base strength might not have broken Cracker's armor.
 

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Not at all — I think.
Gear four increases his brute strength exponentially, while KKG increases that even further (in multiples). That's why he barely lasts 30 minutes in that form.
As an example, I think four times his base strength might not have broken Cracker's armor.
If this is accurate then it makes yonko commanders monsters.
How would you rank them douriki wise?

I had Katakuri at 70k at first but I think that I would have to change that.
 

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Now that is incorrect. Their strenght and ruthless nature made them a particular group of rookies all competing against each other. Thus I consider them to be on a general same level (like VA in the marines for ex) No reason for them to be worlds apart in strenght and this includes Bonney imo.

Morgans even implied that among them would most certainly arise the new pirate king.
Now more than ever The worst generation is becoming a main catalyst to the story dont act like they are just another 100 milion rookie generation.
Oh is it now?

"problem children" "Whenever there's a large incident there's always a pirate from your generation involved". I'm not making this stuff up, this is straight from the manga on their introduction. Am I still incorrect when I was using words exactly from the manga unlike your forced assumptions on their individual strength? Game. Set. Match.


How do you know this information? I thought that on the contrary and that is the whole gimmick of cavendish once the worst generation became famous all of his adventures were ignored and he wanted to be on the spotlight again.
If cavendish did anything worth substance after he gained the spotlight then he would be talked about along with the worst gen.

But hey lets assume that you are right do you think that every 100m pirates other than Cavendish and the worst generation have suddenly gone out of the radar are they all suddenly inactive? Or were they just not on the same caliber as this exceptional generation of rookies despite initially sharing the same bounty category and if we follow your flawed logic the same strenght?
I'm so lost here..... Sorry but I don't think the point you were trying to make came across here.
About Zoro's bounty what is your point? His strenght keeps increasing same as the other supernova but his bounty stayed the same for a while. If anything its another argument in favor of my theory that bounty alone is not to be associated with strenght.
But the world didn't know that his strength was increasing during the time skip yet they still regarded him as a member simply because he was one of the pirates with a 100 mill plus bounty who caused a commotion on Sabaody. That's my entire point.

You are the one who said "Sanji would also be a supernova if X and Y happened, you also are the one who did bring zoro in the equation.
And that argument still hasn't been proven wrong no matter how many opportunities I give you to change my mind. I wasn't the one who brought up thriller bark to try and unnecessarily prove Zoro's dominance over Sanji when it was never in question that Zoro is stronger.

There is no point in responding to some of your "arguments" that have nothing to do with the thread in the first place.
All of my arguments were in response to your arguments. I only had one point when I quoted you but you turned this into an all out essay war by bringing up points I never disagreed with or brought up.

Listen man, you honestly don't seem like a bad person and you can be very respectful compared to a lot of other blind fanboys. I think our argument is getting more heated than it needs to be and it's clearly derailing the thread that you put a lot of effort into. This is partly my fault because I thought I could change your mind on Sanji and the supernovas when I thought I saw a flaw in your argument but that's clearly not working out for the both of us. I think we should call it quits while we're still ahead.
 
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kcd

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If this is accurate then it makes yonko commanders monsters.
How would you rank them douriki wise?

I had Katakuri at 70k at first but I think that I would have to change that.
Normal gear 4 in my head is around 60,000, and it seems to have more brute strength than katakuri's block mochi.
I'd definitely give katakuri between 65,000 and 80,000, because his final diced mochi attack seems pretty powerful (more than block mochi I'd say).
 

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For example, Lucci had about 4000 Douriki. This means gear 2 Luffy would be around this figure.
Luffy should have around 4,000 without Gear 2.

 
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In my opinion, douriki was the dumbest thing, and I'm so glad Oda dropped it quickly. Anytime power levels are assigned arbitrary numbers it's just fanboy fodder.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

It was 2 on 1 though, so that wasn't fair fight to begin with and Katakuri stop it and rectify it by stopping her and hurting himself to be on fair grounds like before since Luffy was holding up so far until Flambe was attacking him same time as Katakuri, so Luffy was having harder time with two people, not one person as much. You can't put that against him.

It is as look who he be facing in Wano arc and prove it more as we all know Luffy going to beat Kaido in the end. Though his bounty still fits for defeating Cracker and Katakuri though in the end, but not Yonko since Big Mom and Kaido still have higher bounties. He probably get raise again once he defeats them.
It wasn't 2 vs 1 the whole fight, and honestly, Katakuri was wrecking Luffy and could have won, but he kept allowing Luffy to get up because he was interested in his growth during the fight. And it was a little plot based stupidity, because everytime he knocked Luffy through a wall or the ground he never went to finish him. He'd stand, yell, wait for Luffy to get up, then start fighting again. Were Katakuri not so "honorable" and interested in Luffy, the fight would have been over fast.
 

King Moe

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英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
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In my opinion, douriki was the dumbest thing, and I'm so glad Oda dropped it quickly. Anytime power levels are assigned arbitrary numbers it's just fanboy fodder.
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It wasn't 2 vs 1 the whole fight, and honestly, Katakuri was wrecking Luffy and could have won, but he kept allowing Luffy to get up because he was interested in his growth during the fight. And it was a little plot based stupidity, because everytime he knocked Luffy through a wall or the ground he never went to finish him. He'd stand, yell, wait for Luffy to get up, then start fighting again. Were Katakuri not so "honorable" and interested in Luffy, the fight would have been over fast.
Talking about Flambe situation, not the whole fight. While Katakuri was dominant, he still wasn't able to knockout Luffy or take him down completely as Luffy keep getting back up similar to Lucci vs Luffy fight, but more tougher. As for the other stuff, isn't that every Shounen bad guy as they always call for the protagonist to give up and don't go on the attack even when they think they finish them as they don't really go forward completely each time to completely wipe them out. Pretty sure that rules for majority if not all Shounen fights each time.
 
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