Politics United States Presidential Election Thread

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Gold Knight

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Gay marriage is pretty low on my radar, I don't really care about it either way. The people who are most against it are typically for religious reasons (ie. "it's not what God intended, God forbids it," etc.) and there are also obviously homophobic people out there. But well, the first Amendment itself specifically said that there should be a freedom of religion and speech, and I do think that includes the right to marry two people of the same sex.

But as I've said elsewhere, how people react to it is the most important thing. It's best to have a smooth transition as possible and that means it should be up to the states individually to decide on whether they are ready to have it happen.
 

Toad Sage

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I've been attending a series of lectures about the history of the supreme court and I wanted to point out how the "let the states deal with it" approach to civil rights is what led to such institutions as the Jim Crowe laws in the south. Rulings the famous cases such as Plesby v Fergusson (sp), Dredd Scott and the Slaughterhouse trial, were each used to invest states with the right to determine to what extent citizens of the united states had their rights protected. By denying that the Federal Government had the power to enforce the diversity clause of the 14th amendment (the one that supposed to help confer civil rights upon newly freed blacks), southern blacks were left exposed to all the lingering hatred in the wake of the civil war and the reconstruction era, since it the judiciary had resolved to allow these states to decide for themselves how their civil liberties were protected. It took literally a century to reverse legal discrimination in southern states, and even now, the question of social equality isn't settled anywhere in America. As such, I think we should learn from history and see how both local prejudices and biases of state legislatures do not necessarily indicate the most efficient route to social equality. Imagine if Chief Justice Warren had allowed that view point to persist in Brown vs. Board of Education. For all I know, we could still have segregated schools! Sometimes it's best to allow big government to do its work. It is, after all, why we Federalized 200 plus years ago.

To me, the 13th and 14th amendments already legally guarantee gays the right to marry anyhow, and at law, the constitution is the supreme legal doctrine whereby all laws of America descend. These amendments say the government does not have the right to abridge personal liberty without due process, and personal liberty is accorded to all American citizens, which is defined as being born in the US. I ask what due process has been granted to homosexuals with respect to marriage? On what grounds, besides the moral perspective of a particular subset of our population, does the claim that homosexuals should be legally denied the same privileges shared by the rest of the country stand? I see no legal reason for this, for if the 13th and 14th amendments have been used to argue (successfully) that something as abstract as a company has legal standing as a human being in our legal system (re: corporations and the "corporate veil" of legal protection), it should easily lend itself to the actual, living breathing humans for which it was intended. Therefore, in my opinion, the state governments have a poor record of performance where social equality is concerned.

Just to point out how illegal or legally contradictory all of this is, when civil unions were legalized in 98 by Vermont, President Clinton convened congress to allow them to vote that the full faith and credit clause of the constitution could be ignored where civil unions formed in Vermont were concerned outside of Vermont. What this means is that, for some reason, unlike any other law in America that I know of, other states are not obligated to acknowledge the legality of a law formed in a different state, in this case, Vermont. That would be like murder being legal in NY, but illegal in NJ for some arbitrary reason. It's why the framers installed the full faith clause in the first place. Clearly, however, this move was a political reaction to how states want to deal with this matter, and once again, in my opinion, is an expression of how poorly equipped states can be at handling civil rights issues.
 
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Gold Knight

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Nice argument, TS, I won't argue that it is pretty contradictory for gays not to have the same right to marry as other people.

But sometimes people have to learn the hard way. There still would have been a lot of exposure to lingering hatred in the wake of the Civil War. Hatred isn't something politics can just stifle like that. In fact, I tend to think it would have been even worse if the Southern States had been forced to abandon segregation immediately - we might have had another war all over again, and probably wouldn't have an "United States" right now.

I mean, the government taking a hard line on slavery was the reason we had the Civil War in the first place.
 
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LadyHatake

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Not to get too off topic here, but slavery wasn't really abolished per se until Abraham Lincoln delivered the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 and the 13th amendment was passed in...um...1866? or thereabouts. The civil war started over a massing of multiple trigger: economics differences b/w the north and south, abolition movements, state v federal rights, and the election of Abraham Lincoln, though multiple states had already succeeded by the time he was elected. They believed he was anti-slavery, when that wasn't necessarily true.

Anyways.

As for gay adoption, I don't think there should be a problem. Let's weigh the options, shall we?

Have a child adopted by a loving, gay couple who can provide for them, take care of them, and help them to become happy, successful members of society

OR

Not let a gay couple adopt, leaving more children without proper parents, floating around in the foster care system, most probably getting abused/mistreated and having a lower chance of doing well in life.

If someone can give an unfortunate child a happy, healthy, safe life, then why not let them? Foster care is bare minimum, if that. Same with orphanages (though, I don't know that there are many, or any at all in the US...).

Like TS, though, I doubt we'll be focusing on many domestic issues (like social security, which we all know is running out, as 10,000 baby boomers begin collecting social security EVERY DAY.) as we're far too involved in other countries at the moment.
 

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Not to get too off topic here, but slavery wasn't really abolished per se until Abraham Lincoln delivered the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 and the 13th amendment was passed in...um...1866? or thereabouts. The civil war started over a massing of multiple trigger: economics differences b/w the north and south, abolition movements, state v federal rights, and the election of Abraham Lincoln, though multiple states had already succeeded by the time he was elected. They believed he was anti-slavery, when that wasn't necessarily true.

Anyways.
Well acutally slavery wasn't abolished even after Lincoln delivered the Emancipation Proclamation, since well the South didnt listen to him. They keep slaves even after the Civil war was over. It might not have been called Slavery after the Civil was but it was the same thing. African Americans after the Civil was didnt have any jobs so they still had to work for their former masters, so now they worked as share-croppers(Would share a percentage of their crops with the farmer and not get any money since the owner would take almost all the crops only leaving enough for the Black family to surviv). Some people moved on higher to Tentant Famers(Were african americans bought a portion of the White owners land and they could grow whatever they wanted on it, but they still had to give a small percentage of the money they got at the end of the year.

So African Americans didnt get their freedom until later on in histroy. This was a little off topic but I just needed to give this info.
As for gay adoption, I don't think there should be a problem. Let's weigh the options, shall we?

Have a child adopted by a loving, gay couple who can provide for them, take care of them, and help them to become happy, successful members of society

OR

Not let a gay couple adopt, leaving more children without proper parents, floating around in the foster care system, most probably getting abused/mistreated and having a lower chance of doing well in life.

If someone can give an unfortunate child a happy, healthy, safe life, then why not let them? Foster care is bare minimum, if that. Same with orphanages (though, I don't know that there are many, or any at all in the US...).

Like TS, though, I doubt we'll be focusing on many domestic issues (like social security, which we all know is running out, as 10,000 baby boomers begin collecting social security EVERY DAY.) as we're far too involved in other countries at the moment.
I agree that we should give children a family no matter what sexual orientation they have.

Social Security and Medicare are programs that we're doomed to fail and will fail very soon, in a few decades. We need to start thinking of new ways to replace the system and not try to fix the problems it has now, it is too late to fix, I think we should just let it run out but in the mean time think of some other way to go instead of Social Security and Medicare.
 

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First off, I just want to say:
AMERICA, F@$K YEAH!!!

It's refreshing to see people actually taking an interest in politics. At least none of the candidates have a campaign slogan of "shaking the haters off," as the mayor here won reelection on that slogan. (GK you probably have heard of good ol' "King Willie Herenton here in Memphis.

As for the upcoming national election, I have always considered myself somewhat of a liberal. I fgirst identified myself as a republican, but that was just because of my parents. My undergraduate years also influenced my political views, as I was in the only blue county in the red state that is Kansas.

I support our troops wholeheartedly. They are fighting for what they believe in and that takes a lot of courage. This issue will affect me even more once my brother heads over there later this year (he leaves for camp at the end of November).

Everyone here is definitely better informed than I am, so I will check in here to get some information. I will obviously pay more attention as the actual elections draw closer.

With that I just want to say:

Let's Go Colbert! (Not really =D)
 

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@Zwivix: Even the most paranoid actuaries predict social security isn't going to run dry until 2058 or so. That's a long time to save the system, and the way forward is clear: prevent politicians, both in the executive and legislative branches, from dipping their greedy paws into the fund to pay for wars, black ops, paying down the national debt, etc etc. America hardly lacks a tax base or, at least presently, enough income to pay into the fund, so the problem doesn't reside in the social security system per se. Again, the majority of its woes can be attributed to Washington fishing it for whatever needs funding, so this is what must stop.

But, even the mighty Bush riding the tide of war propoganda in late 2003/early 2004 tried touching this political "third rail" when he began proposing social security reform. I've often noted it was at this point in his political career when his public credibility began trending downwards, and I by no means feel this was a coincidence. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that it is political suicide to attempt any substantial reforms of social security that threatens to take benefits from people who have been paying into the system. Therefore, I doubt you'll ever see a politician working to overhaul the system in your life time (or mine, for that matter.) It's just a thing that's going to be taken up by our grand kids generation, provided of course we aren't all obliterated in massive global war by then :)
 

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Zwivix: I'm aware of what share-cropping is ,oO I'm a college student for God's sake, I'd better know what it is >.> I understand that it wasn't abolished with the Emancipation, I said it didn't become abolished until AFTER the emancipation and the 13th + etc amendments. Key word there, 13th amendment, which, yes, DID technically abolish it, and the next amendment gave rights. And yes, I did know that they didn't suddenly all become free and happy and have jobs and most ended up as other forms as domestics or sharecroppers. My point was that what GK had said was wrong, it wasn't the abolishment of slavery that started the civil war, as that happened well after.
 

Zwivix

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Zwivix: I'm aware of what share-cropping is ,oO I'm a college student for God's sake, I'd better know what it is >.> I understand that it wasn't abolished with the Emancipation, I said it didn't become abolished until AFTER the emancipation and the 13th + etc amendments. Key word there, 13th amendment, which, yes, DID technically abolish it, and the next amendment gave rights. And yes, I did know that they didn't suddenly all become free and happy and have jobs and most ended up as other forms as domestics or sharecroppers. My point was that what GK had said was wrong, it wasn't the abolishment of slavery that started the civil war, as that happened well after.
Umm I'm sorry for giving other people who might not know that the information :scry. I guess I won't say anything next time.
 

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Sorry, it just sounded like you were explaining it to me and I'm a highly defensive person >.> That's why I usually avoid these threads ;__;

And speaking of Colbert, as mentioned by CopyNinjaKakashi, is anyone really going to vote for Colbert? I find his satire funny, to a point, but I don't think I'd vote for him. I understand he's trying to make a mockery of the presidential race (which, you have to admit, isn't exactly flawless ,oO) but well, I think he's taking it a bit far -_-;
 

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Sorry to butt in but isnt Colbert the man who presents the Colbert Report:blink if it is how is he able to run for election???

and well the only candidates i know of are Obama and Clinton....their the only ones who names actually got across the Atlantic :sweat
 

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@LH: Yes I understand, I was just hoping for a yeah I knew that, but thats fine I forgive you :glomp.

Anyway Steven Colbert is just trying to get publicity, there will definitly be people who will vote for him, he has a giant support system. He even got a bridge named after him in I dont remember where, just because he said they should do that.

When Steven Colbert says something people listen, like he will always challange someone to do something and guess what they will do it. There are people that have everything he has ever said on Wikipidea. Once he told the people that they should change some info on Wikipidea "That the elephant population in Africa had increased in the past 30 yrs" and guess what I checked Wikipidea 5 minutes later and I searched :Elepahnt Population and the change had been made.

He'll just steal votes from everyone but he will not win. I hope the American public is not that ignorant. He might be making this as a mockery but some people might think he's serious, its kind of scary the way some people think...
 

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From what I have seen, Colbert is only running for president in his home state of South Carolina. He plans to run as both a democrat and republican. I do enjoy how the Colbert Report and the Daily Show give a humorous take on the world of politics. Hopefully people don't take his running too serious. If anything, maybe it will get the younger voters out to to the poll and make them more aware of the issues.
 

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From what I have seen, Colbert is only running for president in his home state of South Carolina. He plans to run as both a democrat and republican. I do enjoy how the Colbert Report and the Daily Show give a humorous take on the world of politics. Hopefully people don't take his running too serious. If anything, maybe it will get the younger voters out to to the poll and make them more aware of the issues.
It might get younger people to go to the polls, but I think that they will be the same amount as informed as ever. They could care less what the issues are as long as they vote for Colbert they would be happy.
 

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Sorry to butt in but isnt Colbert the man who presents the Colbert Report:blink if it is how is he able to run for election???

and well the only candidates i know of are Obama and Clinton....their the only ones who names actually got across the Atlantic :sweat
Anyone can run for president =P On the ballot there's an "other" spot where you can fill in a name. Mickey Mouse gets a few hundred votes every time XD
 

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Anyone can run for president =P On the ballot there's an "other" spot where you can fill in a name. Mickey Mouse gets a few hundred votes every time XD
My point exactly. People will always make dumb jokes like that, and then they get mad becasue of the preson that got elected. They should be serious and be grateful for the precious right they have. I know I would.
 

xi0

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Colbert is breaking the law anyways, since Doritos/Frito-Lay is backing his campaign. I believe it's against the law for a corporation to back a candidate. It's a publicity stunt...nothing more, nothing less.
 

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Well, it's obviously a publicity stunt, but still, there's people out there who'd truly back him as a president o.o

I don't think we need to worry about it, the chance of him ACTUALLY being elected is slim to none. He even stated on Larry King Live that he didn't actually want to BE president, he just wanted to run =P

Imperium brings up a good point though, mentioning he's only heard of Clinton and Obama (and he's in another country). I think those two are more publicized (partially because if they'd win, they'd be "firsts:" first female president, first minority president) than any of the others. Hillary is obvious, she's been in the White House before and everyone knew her when Bill was in the House. I kinda wish to see more of some of the other candidates...
 

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Imperium brings up a good point though, mentioning he's only heard of Clinton and Obama (and he's in another country). I think those two are more publicized (partially because if they'd win, they'd be "firsts:" first female president, first minority president) than any of the others. Hillary is obvious, she's been in the White House before and everyone knew her when Bill was in the House. I kinda wish to see more of some of the other candidates...
Well obviously only the big named candidates would be known overseas, but even some people here in the U.S. only know about a few of the cadidates, the ones that raise the most money or do the most stunts.

Btw not to say your wrong LH but Governor Richardan, Governor of New Mexico, is also running and he would be another minority that would become a first since he's Hispanic. Although I have to admit that Obama and Hilary are the only ones that have an actual shot at winning, from the "firsts" group.
 

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Vote for me. My real name is Pedro for real!


Nah for real I heard that Hilary Clinton is the leading canidate to take the democrat position.They said that on the news yesterday or something like that. Im not sure about the republicans.I did watch a little bit of one of the youtube debates though.
 
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