Fantasy Vergo vs Zoro with Enma

[Grandmaster Woro]

He is rank VA though just like Maynard, so by that logic we go by 'ranks', could Maynard be on Garp's level? No he isn't, so you can't push ranks and titles to push someone is stronger than another if evidence doesn't push their performance to be on that level.

Pica is not same level with Vergo especially Doflamingo heavily implied Vergo was his strongest out of his group around and we seen Pica is nothing much to his name, but walking stone which breaking it been pre-timeskip since early in the series.

Zoro fainted and tied with him and never beaten Gyukimaro and get his sword back. He was forced to let it go and never prove his worth to take it back at all.

He can beat him with Enma, not denying that, but depends on how Zoro will fight as if he takes damage harder than what Kamazou did to him, he go down like a fly especially Vergo is more brutal stronger than Kamazou. Zoro can't use Haki defensively to protect himself from incoming attacks, so don't see why he Vergo will be easy when Hawkins, Kamazou, and Apoo got him with ease without trying much. It's 50/50 with Vergo can beat him with Enma or Zoro if he can get somehow an opening could win if he try attacking again and again, but Vergo won't go down easily.

did doflamingo offer a higher rank for vergo? Did that ever happen, but garp was offered a chance for admiral position. You are just nitpicking right now.

when did doflamingo imply vergo is the strongest? Vergo's only his trusted man.
Now, here's a fact you fail to understand. Pica is a mountain of stone, not just a mere rock. SHP pretimeskip barely able to beat oars through taking advantage of human anatomy and physiology. Using your logic though, then shouldn't the SHP able to easily beat oars since they had beaten the other zombies before?

Meanwhile, pica is bigger than even oars and is entirely made of stone.

Why do you always bring up the point about zoro protecting himself with haki? He could just block the attacks with his swords. You need to stop your biased hate towards zoro and just accept that zoro wins this.
ISDS easily beat vergo, zoro with enma means vergo getting killed brutally.

 

[XXGenesis]

Vergo,Pica; Diamanté, Trebol all held the same position in the Doffy Crew; Executives

They all vary in overall strength and skill...Vergo however seemed to be the strongest. Pica has strong DF , & Trebolwas no light joke, Diamanté was meh-ish (Soldier also was pretty strong)

From memory alone only Pica & Vergo showed Haki. Both used Full Haki on their bodies at the end of their fight...(We know using too much Haki can drain you) either way...

I believe Vergo to not be stronger than A SuperNova Captain, but can stall them for a bit. Zoro isn’t a Captain but he’s the strongest non Supernova Captain as he’s owned Killer with his own weapon.

Either way Vergo’s Haki isn’t blocking Zoro’s Haki imo pre Wano. So you give him Enma, Zoro treats Vergo just like Law did after he got his heart back...

W/O Enma I believe Vergo puts up a mid diff fight. Hurting Zoro similarly like Killer did. Then Zoro gets pissed off and finishes the fight.

 

[goldb]

Zoro can't use Haki defensively to protect himself from incoming attacks, so don't see why he Vergo will be easy when Hawkins, Kamazou, and Apoo got him with ease without trying much.

Why can't Zoro use haki defensively?

 

[M3J]

Pica isn't on same level though as what make him strong was his DF which really not hard to break apart stone at all. Steel is harder than Stone with Daz Bones. We can see Zoro was push to extreme with Daz, but Pica was fodder-enemy he never felt struggle much once unless he is trying to chase him. He was more hide and seek enemy, not confrontal one. With Vergo it's much different on how his Haki is beyond his in close combat and Zoro would have trouble with him over Pica anyday in a fight. I can't put him above given how he been treated as of late. Enma I can give it, but idk about his performance before that as he hasn't beaten anyone to state he was surperior to Vergo even with Pica.

Steel is harder than stone, and Zoro managed to cut through Daz. Zoro always overcomes his limit, and there's no reason to believe he wouldn't here either, especially with how powerful Enma is. Your "performance" excuse is pretty bad, you need to stop ignoring circumstances. If the same happened to your favorite character/s in the situations Zoro was in, you'd bring up how they were distracted or how they still kept going and fighting.

 

[King Moe]

Why can't Zoro use haki defensively?

Ask that about Hawkins, Kamazou (Nerfed), and Apoo why he didn't use Hardening to defend on that matter. If he didn't for even having precaution to use his Haki on that moment, why with Vergo who shown more flexibility better than him, he will change being caution, but didn't for those to use his Haki to defend when he was going to get pierce and slice? Just saying performance doesn't show to make it believable. if they truly fought.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 23, 2020, Original Post Date: Sep 23, 2020 ---

Steel is harder than stone, and Zoro managed to cut through Daz. Zoro always overcomes his limit, and there's no reason to believe he wouldn't here either, especially with how powerful Enma is. Your "performance" excuse is pretty bad, you need to stop ignoring circumstances. If the same happened to your favorite character/s in the situations Zoro was in, you'd bring up how they were distracted or how they still kept going and fighting.

Nah, just performance shown on Zoro who was hype tool by Hawkins, Kyoshiro, Kamazou, Gyukimaro, and latest Apoo

Spoiler

(Especially seemingly again in latest spoilers)

. Nothing to do about any character I am talking about, but Zoro. Though like how that being used as from what I know if something hurt him, he gets downplay for illogical reasons, but if it was Zoro, few don't want to downplay on his true faults. If we can't be fair to characters when they have clear issues, then what is the point of 'VS' fights and pretending Zoro has 'no weaknesses'?

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 23, 2020 ---

did doflamingo offer a higher rank for vergo? Did that ever happen, but garp was offered a chance for admiral position. You are just nitpicking right now.

when did doflamingo imply vergo is the strongest? Vergo's only his trusted man.
Now, here's a fact you fail to understand. Pica is a mountain of stone, not just a mere rock. SHP pretimeskip barely able to beat oars through taking advantage of human anatomy and physiology. Using your logic though, then shouldn't the SHP able to easily beat oars since they had beaten the other zombies before?

Meanwhile, pica is bigger than even oars and is entirely made of stone.

Why do you always bring up the point about zoro protecting himself with haki? He could just block the attacks with his swords. You need to stop your biased hate towards zoro and just accept that zoro wins this.
ISDS easily beat vergo, zoro with enma means vergo getting killed brutally.

You can be someone's right-hand man without increasing or changing titles for example Sengoku and Garp were same level or push close in power (With Garp a bit or more so), but he was an Vice Admiral while Sengoku became Admiral and later Fleet Admiral. Ranks and Titles don't matter if their performance push something else about them along with different elements on it.

Doflamingo did push him ore his right-hand man by his phrasing especially comparing to the others on their abilities, they haven't show much in close combat compare to what Vergo can do himself.

Stone is breakable and been since pre-timeskip. Come back wnen you are ready reread OP if you think breaking stone is hardest material ever for OP when they been doing it since early OP stages. He was fodder-enemy and no challenge whatsoever unlike Vergo on how much of a threat he impose around. Also your example you used on Oars one is terrible especially make no sense or difference about it as Oars was special classified of a Zombie unlike others by Moria just like Vergo was hype by Doflamingo on how he gets jobs done and his power to boot.

Pretty sure in a fight, Oars will have no trouble destroying Pica's body given his powers was already showing him capable of destroying buildings and possible the ship if Moria didn't control him. Please stop making Pica worthy when he was in reality an fodder who choose to hide and seek when he couldn't handle anyone in face up fight.

No biased just hard truth about his capabilities and Vergo would squashed Zoro without Enma and even with Enma with 50/50 chance it can go either way. Zoro doesn't have flexibility to use Haki unlike Vergo shown to do in both offensive and defensive manner back in forth. Let me know when he stops fainting for me to actually see his durability, stamina, and Haki in defensively actually shows. I don't lie to myself on what happens with a character, I call the hard facts and their flaws. No one is perfect and neither is Zoro.

 

[Nie Li]

The whole "stone is breakable since pre-TS" point to diss at Pica's durability and at Zoro's feat isn't worth much for two reasons.

Reason 1:
Since stone is breakable, it's never again impressive to cut up bigger stones? Specially huge-ass stones with a mind of their own that you have to mince fast before they reach the ground or the guy hiding inside would run away and make it all for nothing?

I guess that, since "stone is breakable", it wouldn't be impressive if Zoro cut the Earth in two, since "it's just a big stone and they have been cutting stones since before the TS".

Pica was around the size of Oars. Cutting him up like that was impressive on its own.

Reason 2:
It's your lucky day, Pica himself wasn't impressed either by Zoro cutting up the stone the way he did. He was surprised, but he was still confident that his full body CoA hardening would make Zoro unnable to cut him. You can diminiss Pica's haki all that you want, but the guy was confident that his full-body hardening was enough to stop the sword of the guy who had just cut up the huge-ass statue into tiny pieces, meaning his full-body hardening was many, many times superior to the durability of the statue. Yet it only took Zoro one try to send Pica to his grave (or at least to the hospital. I don't think nobody important died that arc).

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

Pretty sure in a fight, Oars will have no trouble destroying Pica's body given his powers was already showing him capable of destroying buildings and possible the ship if Moria didn't control him.

Well based on what u said, that means zoro has the strength of an ancient giant, since zoro also destroys pica body.
Thank you for saying by yourself about how strong zoro is.
Zoro is a swordsman with giant strength. He cut vergo easily.

 

[King Moe]

Well based on what u said, that means zoro has the strength of an ancient giant, since zoro also destroys pica body.
Thank you for saying by yourself about how strong zoro is.
Zoro is a swordsman with giant strength. He cut vergo easily.

I mean last chapter states everyone could solo Oars in a fight by Luffy, so Idk what you getting at there, but Vergo would be able to own Oars with ease unlike Pica who is afraid of his own shadow to face someone in confrontal manner. Zoro get destroyed and Enma is his only hope, but even that is 50/50 chance, not going to give him anything of a victory if he mess up again.

 

[Nie Li]

I mean last chapter states everyone could solo Oars in a fight by Luffy, so Idk what you getting at there, but Vergo would be able to own Oars with ease unlike Pica who is afraid of his own shadow to face someone in confrontal manner. Zoro get destroyed and Enma is his only hope, but even that is 50/50 chance, not going to give him anything of a victory if he mess up again.

Okay, now I am going to make this Z vs S a bit.

Please read through my whole reasoning carefully before raging and please think it through, making sure you understand well what is being said to you here, before answering.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you once say that Oda keeps Zoro and Sanji purposely at the same level in an ambiguous manner? You believe that Vergo was weaker than PH Sanji and that, if the fight had gone on, Sanji would have won.

Sanji now is much stronger than then, not only has he naturally grown up in strength but he also just received the major Raid Suit upgrade. Also according to you, he's stronger than a YC1 who, at the same time, is much stronger than Doflamingo who, at the same time, was much stronger than Vergo.

So your current PL view is something like this Sanji > King >> Doflamingo >> Vergo.

Yet you're also telling us that Vergo >> Zoro and that Enma somehow only gives him a 50/50.

So what you're saying is, while also claiming to be impartial, that Sanji > >> >> >> Zoro (after adding up the > from the previous graphic).

It seems to be very important to you now how Oda pushes who is stronger than who in the crew, since it's very important to you that Luffy fights Kaido, but Oda has also officially said that Zoro is the second strongest in the crew right after Luffy.

So, I ask you, do you truly believe to be unbiased and to be fair towards Zoro's PL, if even after Oda has officially said "Luffy > Zoro > Sanji", you try to push that "Sanji > >> >> >> Zoro" and that Zoro would now struggle against an opponent that, according to you, would have lost to Sanji 4 arcs ago?

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

I mean last chapter states everyone could solo Oars in a fight by Luffy

yeah and luffy still needed to go G4 to attack it, while luffy didn't even bother to go G4 against a flying six (page one)

 

[goldb]

Ask that about Hawkins, Kamazou (Nerfed), and Apoo why he didn't use Hardening to defend on that matter. If he didn't for even having precaution to use his Haki on that moment, why with Vergo who shown more flexibility better than him, he will change being caution, but didn't for those to use his Haki to defend when he was going to get pierce and slice? Just saying performance doesn't show to make it believable. if they truly fought.

You're going to ignore the circumstances of these 3 fights that you point out to conveniently make your point that Zoro can't use haki defensively.

There's no doubt Zoro can use haki defensively, if the situation asks for it. He's primarily a swordsman, so I believe he uses most of his haki defensively through imbuing his swords (if needs be), parrying and deflecting. Most of the time though, Zoro just takes the hits and deals with it, that's how the majority of his fights have been pre-timeskip. Post-timeskip, he's not had a one on one with an opponent where he needed to use haki to defend himself without using his swords.
I think most importantly, it's been part of his character trait to take insane levels of damage and still continue being a badass. None of that has really changed.

1. Hawkins, I referenced that fight HERE. The nails were a minor issue for him, you can see his annoyance at them, and once he parried enough, he swung once and that was it. No defensive haki needed.

2. Kamazou (your favourite nerf), I referenced that fight HERE. Whether or not he should've used haki there is a different topic to him choosing to trap it in his shoulder blade, break it and then use it as part of his santoryu to slash Kamazou. He obviously chose not to, so he believes in his ability to withstand the scythe damage. And then fainting later due to hunger.

3. Apoo - You knowing how Apoo's ability works, HOW was Zoro or ANYONE for that matter supposed to defend themselves against if they hadn't seen it being used before? I'm curious as to how you would defend against it.

Here's a panel for that encounter btw, just to tie all this together:

Anyway, let me ask you this question and we'll end the debate since it's pretty simple.

Vergo is using his bamboo, imbued this and his whole body in haki as he did against Law, faces up to Zoro with his haki and Enma. Does Zoro lose?

This applies the flexbility of Vergo that you mentioned (him being able to not only imbue his weapon but also his whole body) and the condition of this fight (wherein Zoro is just using Enma).

 

[King Moe]

You're going to ignore the circumstances of these 3 fights that you point out to conveniently make your point that Zoro can't use haki defensively.

There's no doubt Zoro can use haki defensively, if the situation asks for it. He's primarily a swordsman, so I believe he uses most of his haki defensively through imbuing his swords (if needs be), parrying and deflecting. Most of the time though, Zoro just takes the hits and deals with it, that's how the majority of his fights have been pre-timeskip. Post-timeskip, he's not had a one on one with an opponent where he needed to use haki to defend himself without using his swords.
I think most importantly, it's been part of his character trait to take insane levels of damage and still continue being a badass. None of that has really changed.

1. Hawkins, I referenced that fight HERE. The nails were a minor issue for him, you can see his annoyance at them, and once he parried enough, he swung once and that was it. No defensive haki needed.

2. Kamazou (your favourite nerf), I referenced that fight HERE. Whether or not he should've used haki there is a different topic to him choosing to trap it in his shoulder blade, break it and then use it as part of his santoryu to slash Kamazou. He obviously chose not to, so he believes in his ability to withstand the scythe damage. And then fainting later due to hunger.

3. Apoo - You knowing how Apoo's ability works, HOW was Zoro or ANYONE for that matter supposed to defend themselves against if they hadn't seen it being used before? I'm curious as to how you would defend against it.

Here's a panel for that encounter btw, just to tie all this together:

Anyway, let me ask you this question and we'll end the debate since it's pretty simple.

Vergo is using his bamboo, imbued this and his whole body in haki as he did against Law, faces up to Zoro with his haki and Enma. Does Zoro lose?

This applies the flexbility of Vergo that you mentioned (him being able to not only imbue his weapon but also his whole body) and the condition of this fight (wherein Zoro is just using Enma).

I know he can use it defensively, but his reaction speed to use Haki to deflect in time is what I am talking about as his past fights show his reaction speed to use Haki to block or deflect with Hardening doesn't show especially in moment with Kamazou which he should have use it to prevent damage to himself, but didn't. That's why I keep saying his flexibility on how to use Haki back and forth is slower as his reaction speed doesn't help him to defend in time using Haki.

I mean yeah pre-timeskip he used to be more durable and stamina, but post-timeskip show he has weaknesses in those now seeing how he been getting hurt lately and can't tank like he used to especially to even fainting (please don't use hunger theory as never Zoro has hunger problems in facing someone as he isn't Luffy).

As for your points whether attacks were major or minor, it doesn't take away my point that Zoro has poor reaction speed to use Haki in defensive manner. Of course he can use Hardening to defend, but your pretending that Zoro has COO top tier and his reflexes will make him see attacks in time when reality in his past fights have shown he getting hurt more by his opponents than he does to them especially in latest arc. There is no logic on wanting to get hurt before major battles as he isn't tank anymore. These are not fodder enemies, they are strong credible threats who can damage him badly if he thinks he can simple tank without Haki as that just too stupid even for him. I can give leeway on Apoo situation despite him getting to his knees after non-serious attack, but Hawkins and Kamazou he should use Haki to defend just in case to prevent damage as no reason why you should.

Yes, Zoro can beat him if he can get some few/some clean Enma slices on him, but that is debating if Vergo wouldn't dodge or tank and bash him right back as he was able to break Smoker's Seastone Juttie Weapon (Even though Smoker purposely be a distraction to help Law), so Vergo's on his power isn't something to undestimate and pretend Zoro can tank it all when he hasn't shown that with his performance in NW. As I stated I don't see Zoro without Enma winning, but with Enma, I can give the win, but that is depending factor on how it goes since Vergo isn't slouch and fodder, so it be struggle of a fight, not one-shot victory if he couldn't manage with his enemies in Wano like Kamazou and Gyukimaro who are weaker than Vergo and got major damage from tying and couldn't beat the other one.

 

[goldb]

I know he can use it defensively, but his reaction speed to use Haki to deflect in time is what I am talking about as his past fights show his reaction speed to use Haki to block or deflect with Hardening doesn't show especially in moment with Kamazou which he should have use it to prevent damage to himself, but didn't. That's why I keep saying his flexibility on how to use Haki back and forth is slower as his reaction speed doesn't help him to defend in time using Haki.

1. Hawkins, I referenced that fight HERE. The nails were a minor issue for him, you can see his annoyance at them, and once he parried enough, he swung once and that was it. No defensive haki needed.

2. Kamazou (your favourite nerf), I referenced that fight HERE. Whether or not he should've used haki there is a different topic to him choosing to trap it in his shoulder blade, break it and then use it as part of his santoryu to slash Kamazou. He obviously chose not to, so he believes in his ability to withstand the scythe damage. And then fainting later due to hunger.

3. Apoo - You knowing how Apoo's ability works, HOW was Zoro or ANYONE for that matter supposed to defend themselves against if they hadn't seen it being used before? I'm curious as to how you would defend against it.

So I'm reading your post right, Zoro can parry and deflect massive amounts of nails at incredile speed but can't react fast enough to use haki defensively? If your argument had been that Zoro couldn't somehow use haki defensively, I could debate that with you, but to say that with all the incredible feats we've seen from Zoro that he's not able to react fast enough to cloak him in haki is ridiculous. I've covered why Zoro didn't use haki to block Kamazou's scythe in point 2 and again, it comes down to the character trait and his self-belief.

I mean yeah pre-timeskip he used to be more durable and stamina, but post-timeskip show he has weaknesses in those now seeing how he been getting hurt lately and can't tank like he used to especially to even fainting (please don't use hunger theory as never Zoro has hunger problems in facing someone as he isn't Luffy).

LOL How can Zoro be getting weaker if the point of the story is to grow stronger? I can't even.
Zoro hasn't shown anything different in terms of how he takes hits post-timeskip than he did pre-timeskip. The reason you say he's more durable pre-timeskip is because we actually saw him fight opponents his level/stronger or just actual one on one fights in general.

What hunger theory? This?

Spoiler: THEORY

Explain to me how this is a theory. Please and thank you in advance. Because sure, Zoro doesn't have hunger issues like Luffy but in this instance the text effect show exactly what's going on with him. In the panels above he is casually talking. Which is also another thing about this and the fact that you believe this is a draw, which is absurd but I'll leave that for another time.

As for your points whether attacks were major or minor, it doesn't take away my point that Zoro has poor reaction speed to use Haki in defensive manner. Of course he can use Hardening to defend, but your pretending that Zoro has COO top tier and his reflexes will make him see attacks in time when reality in his past fights have shown he getting hurt more by his opponents than he does to them especially in latest arc. There is no logic on wanting to get hurt before major battles as he isn't tank anymore. These are not fodder enemies, they are strong credible threats who can damage him badly if he thinks he can simple tank without Haki as that just too stupid even for him. I can give leeway on Apoo situation despite him getting to his knees after non-serious attack, but Hawkins and Kamazou he should use Haki to defend just in case to prevent damage as no reason why you should.

Where did I mention CoO? please quote me in that post. Thanks in advance. As far as I'm concerned we're talking about his CoA. His reaction speed has been impressive long before we knew anything about CoO, so that's not what we're on about.
No shit there's no logic in wanting to get hurt before a major fight but for one this encounter with Kamazou happened nearly 2 weeks before the Fire Festival, which is plenty of time for him to recover and secondly which is with you? is Kamazou a strong credible threat or is he a nerf? because it seems to change depending on what point you're trying to make against Zoro.

There's no leeway to give on the encounter against Apoo, that's exactly how it would've played out against almost anyone who isn't aware of his abilities. But at least you can drop that empty point. Both the Hawkins and Kamazou points are covered above, so read them please. The only one of them that has any substance in Zoro's use of CoA is Kamazou and I've twice explained (in this post and the previous) why haki wasn't used in that particular instance. I can't believe you're debating nails. NAILS. Is this what it's come to? I've even shown you the panels and yet you still bang on about this.

Yes, Zoro can beat him if he can get some few/some clean Enma slices on him, but that is debating if Vergo wouldn't dodge or tank and bash him right back as he was able to break Smoker's Seastone Juttie Weapon (Even though Smoker purposely be a distraction to help Law), so Vergo's on his power isn't something to undestimate and pretend Zoro can tank it all when he hasn't shown that with his performance in NW. As I stated I don't see Zoro without Enma winning, but with Enma, I can give the win, but that is depending factor on how it goes since Vergo isn't slouch and fodder, so it be struggle of a fight, not one-shot victory if he couldn't manage with his enemies in Wano like Kamazou and Gyukimaro who are weaker than Vergo and got major damage from tying and couldn't beat the other one.

Zoro wins either way but the thread debate is about Zoro fighting WITH Enma, so I don't care what you think about him fighting without it in this thread. Of course Vergo isn't to be underestimated and Zoro would rightly not be conceited in his approach in that fight but he would win. No tank, but win. As Vergo can still hurt him if he catches him off-guard with his haki imbued bamboo stick.

1. The Kamazou fight was not a tie, Zoro won. Get out of your feelings with this. It's so lame for you to continue with this on the basis that Zoro passed out AFTER he defeated him. Not at the same time, not when he took is scythe in his shoulder-blade but AFTER. After having had a whole conversation.

2. WTF. Zoro didn't defeated Gyukimaru?

Gyukimaru ran away from Zoro in ch938. Zoro found him again at the bridge in ch950 to retrieve his sword but he had already stashed it. I don't know about you but it doesn't look like Zoro is struggling there.

 

[Ramen]

Zoro should take this

 

[King Moe]

1. Hawkins, I referenced that fight HERE. The nails were a minor issue for him, you can see his annoyance at them, and once he parried enough, he swung once and that was it. No defensive haki needed.

2. Kamazou (your favourite nerf), I referenced that fight HERE. Whether or not he should've used haki there is a different topic to him choosing to trap it in his shoulder blade, break it and then use it as part of his santoryu to slash Kamazou. He obviously chose not to, so he believes in his ability to withstand the scythe damage. And then fainting later due to hunger.

3. Apoo - You knowing how Apoo's ability works, HOW was Zoro or ANYONE for that matter supposed to defend themselves against if they hadn't seen it being used before? I'm curious as to how you would defend against it.

So I'm reading your post right, Zoro can parry and deflect massive amounts of nails at incredile speed but can't react fast enough to use haki defensively? If your argument had been that Zoro couldn't somehow use haki defensively, I could debate that with you, but to say that with all the incredible feats we've seen from Zoro that he's not able to react fast enough to cloak him in haki is ridiculous. I've covered why Zoro didn't use haki to block Kamazou's scythe in point 2 and again, it comes down to the character trait and his self-belief.



LOL How can Zoro be getting weaker if the point of the story is to grow stronger? I can't even.
Zoro hasn't shown anything different in terms of how he takes hits post-timeskip than he did pre-timeskip. The reason you say he's more durable pre-timeskip is because we actually saw him fight opponents his level/stronger or just actual one on one fights in general.

What hunger theory? This?

Spoiler: THEORY

Explain to me how this is a theory. Please and thank you in advance. Because sure, Zoro doesn't have hunger issues like Luffy but in this instance the text effect show exactly what's going on with him. In the panels above he is casually talking. Which is also another thing about this and the fact that you believe this is a draw, which is absurd but I'll leave that for another time.



Where did I mention CoO? please quote me in that post. Thanks in advance. As far as I'm concerned we're talking about his CoA. His reaction speed has been impressive long before we knew anything about CoO, so that's not what we're on about.
No shit there's no logic in wanting to get hurt before a major fight but for one this encounter with Kamazou happened nearly 2 weeks before the Fire Festival, which is plenty of time for him to recover and secondly which is with you? is Kamazou a strong credible threat or is he a nerf? because it seems to change depending on what point you're trying to make against Zoro.

There's no leeway to give on the encounter against Apoo, that's exactly how it would've played out against almost anyone who isn't aware of his abilities. But at least you can drop that empty point. Both the Hawkins and Kamazou points are covered above, so read them please. The only one of them that has any substance in Zoro's use of CoA is Kamazou and I've twice explained (in this post and the previous) why haki wasn't used in that particular instance. I can't believe you're debating nails. NAILS. Is this what it's come to? I've even shown you the panels and yet you still bang on about this.



Zoro wins either way but the thread debate is about Zoro fighting WITH Enma, so I don't care what you think about him fighting without it in this thread. Of course Vergo isn't to be underestimated and Zoro would rightly not be conceited in his approach in that fight but he would win. No tank, but win. As Vergo can still hurt him if he catches him off-guard with his haki imbued bamboo stick.

1. The Kamazou fight was not a tie, Zoro won. Get out of your feelings with this. It's so lame for you to continue with this on the basis that Zoro passed out AFTER he defeated him. Not at the same time, not when he took is scythe in his shoulder-blade but AFTER. After having had a whole conversation.

2. WTF. Zoro didn't defeated Gyukimaru?

Gyukimaru ran away from Zoro in ch938. Zoro found him again at the bridge in ch950 to retrieve his sword but he had already stashed it. I don't know about you but it doesn't look like Zoro is struggling there.

You mean how early in NW he was able to parry and block all of Hody's water bullets without getting hurt, but couldn't do the same when facing Hawkins another of projectiles come at him again? Yeah it shows that not always he can have good reaction speed when something is coming at him. If what you said is true if it's in his character to not use Haki and tank attacks when it comes at him, then why didn't he for Hody, Monet, Pica, etc.. There is a distinction between character trait and what you do in a fight. Luffy for like fighting man to man himself, but doesn't mean he will forget how to block and dodge when he needs to in a fight with his opponents. It has nothing to do with character traits as much it is how you know what to do in a fight.

Not his power (Well maybe as can't say after being dominated by many credible opponents especially in Wano), but his durability and stamina are clearly not the same anymore. Be honest will Zoro from Thriller Bark faint compare to the Zoro in Wano would if he got pierce? The man who could tank Kuma's Pain Shock and stay standing without going down even when he was hungry, but have fleeting conscious at least, but will easily go down what Kamazou do to him? So....Kamazou > Kuma then? Do you believe Nerfed Kamazou is stronger and did more compare to Kuma who wasn't even taking the fight seriously? I don't believe that for even a second. Characters have flaws on where they lack and show about it. That just a factor unless you believe Zoro is perfection and has no weaknesses or flaws? I am interested to know what you have to say as Oda looks to be pushing he isn't same in durability and stamina like he used to be.

Cause every character have flaws which make them likable, not Gary Sue or Mary Sue type on them. I am just stating flaws Zoro has. Stating them doesn't equal 'I hate the character' when we talk on them like that. If truly did, I wouldn't even give Enma a shot in beating Vergo, but not blind to see it as power-up for him, but admitting he has glaring flaws that won't go away as Enma increase more so his attack, it doesn't raise anything else.

If hunger was main issue, he would admit it when he woke up, but he was more concern on his wound than 'I am hungry...I need food' type of talk. He even admits it was his own fault why he fainted, nothing to say about hunger, poison, etc.. If Zoro isn't making excuse why he goes down, why do we need to make that when he can accept his own flaws? True fans learn to accept the flaws of character, not ignored or overhype into something like 'solo Kaido' imagination (Not saying you are, but using example on certain others who thought that).

You didn't say COO as just using as example and also it kinda counts on his reaction speed as COO helps with that, don't it? Got time to recover, but from how Law and others made it an issue to not get hurt before final battle give vibes that if you got hurt early it could come back to hurt you again especially if enemies take advantage of that which be handicap in the upcoming war. We have to wait and see how things goes for him to see if his ongoing injuries he is taking won't slow him down or not, but seems to be more on slowing him given how damage he felt when Apoo got him as things goes onward. Also your misunderstanding why I use them as examples and explain about difference of character trait of wanting to do it compare to actual fighting prowess as we seen Zoro dodge and defend himself from attacks before, but when he does, your stating 'he choose to get hurt and fine with tanking it?' What? That isn't what his character about at all as that would mean why would he defend and dodge attacks from others and can't do the same thing again?

Zoro has flawed of poor reaction speed along with durability and stamina, there is nothing to be ashamed on that as he just need to retrain on betting himself on it. Character having weakness isn't anything new to OP, so Idk what you think Zoro is without his as he is by far nothing perfect overall.

Alright then. My point still stands though as I state he can win, but it depends on how fight goes. If Vergo get hard shots on him more than A Zoro does on him, then Zoro can lose the fight, but if he can get crucial slices on Vergo, Zoro can win the fight too with Enma. Just saying it's either way with him having Enma. I am giving him benefit of the doubt despite what performance shows, but not making Vergo be fodder material and pretending he wont' tank and dodge his attacks though. Both are quite strong and have ways to beat each other, so got look at both sides fairly if performance shows on how things could go.

1. You don't faint seconds later after an fight if you truly won as it's a tie overall. Doesn't matter who fall down first if you still faint over next as that shown in fights to go like that with opponents tying if both can stay up long enough to hold victory before fainting themselves. What conversation? I saw Gyukimaro smile at him and that's where Zoro began to faint as there was no long conversation or even short one that he stood for minutes before going down. He fainted soon after in seconds in OP time, not in our time.

2. Let me see an picture of him being actual defeated as I remember Gyukimaro pushed him off and who stop him wasn't Zoro, but Kappa instead. He never got Shusui back nor right to earn it back from them, so I can't see that as a 'victory' especially sitting on your opponent doesn't mean you won a fight if they push you off next chapter and still active. Show me image Gyukimaro is admit defeat, knockout, or killed as none took place. If we taking someone sitting on you as victory, then I guess Bellemere won her fight with Arlong when she sat on him with gun in his face? Fight doesn't work like that as I am sure we remember what happen next in that fight.

Also Gyukimaro didn't ran, he left him to die as we see grinned on his face on seeing succumbing to his wounds and walk off as he doesn't go after someone who already in his mind going to past. If he was true bad guy, Zoro would be the one to lose more than his weapons in that altercation for sure.

Since we reach our point on admitting about Enma Zoro can beat Vergo which he does, but just saying 50/50 on that, let's please stop the talk with each other for now and let I be long discussion over this. I know we both don't want to continue this as more we want to. Agree?

 

[Grandmaster Woro]

zoro wins. Nothing suggests vergo can withstand his mountain-splitting feat. He's already cutting steel since he beat Mr. 1 and now he also has CoA.
Zoro beats vergo brutally if he has Enma.

 

[Brandish μ]

Who would have stronger haki, out of Zoro and Vergo?

 

[sir_rocky]

But Zoro got hit by nails, there is no way he can defeat Vergo, how can you not understand that.

On a more serious note, Zoro wins, with or without Enma.

We saw him easily defeat Pica and Zoro said it himself "There is nothing i cannot cut", that is what his character is all about.
If there is one thing that we can be certain he trained hard in it is his CoA because how can he be able to cut anything if his CoA is weak.
So Vergo going full body haki would help him as much as it did Pica.

Of course that is under the assumption that Zoro doesn't get hit, because he would probably faint after one hit.

 

[Critical mindset]

Vergo held the heart seat, was commended as DDs most trusted man, had the most important job out of all seats, Trebol the second most important (guarding Sugar), either Diamante or Pica could take part in the Colosseum I suppose but Doffy chose to have Diamante partake in the contest. As it stands, all seats have had important mission given to them, all except for Pica.

(1) Pica is not a swordsman but a brawler, with Diamante being highlighted as the swordsman, him having trained Law. This would explain. why Pica opted to drop his sword when FBH was activated. Zoro did not in fact face the swordsman of the crew. Pica could nevertheless match Zoro in swordsmanship, Zoro never getting any hits on Pica, only when moment presented itself (1080 pound slash) and when Pica was preparing a slamdown which allowed Zoro to cut down his FBH form.

Vergo’s armament haki was the hot topic in PH. Caesar witnessed Luffy going G3 and was even aware of Zoro having cut down the dragon, a feat you like to point to. Caesar was not impressed by either and thought Vergo was capable of taking out Luffy, his entire crew, Smoker and Law by himself, saying his Vergo was the “monster” of Punk Hazard haki “is unstoppable”. Again and again Vergo was portrayed as indestructible.

The dude broke Sanji’s leg with his ankle lol. I rest my case.

no one thing more, Zoro is looking terrible this war, all roughed up and needing the help of samurai to not get captured by gifters. This is with his precious Enma that you rub yourself off to believing it will climb Zoro to godhood. He was losing to gifters with Enma

 

[Nie Li]

Vergo held the heart seat, was commended as DDs most trusted man, had the most important job out of all seats, Trebol the second most important (guarding Sugar), either Diamante or Pica could take part in the Colosseum I suppose but Doffy chose to have Diamante partake in the contest. As it stands, all seats have had important mission given to them, all except for Pica.

And what's the point you arrive at here?

(1) Pica is not a swordsman but a brawler, with Diamante being highlighted as the swordsman, him having trained Law. This would explain. why Pica opted to drop his sword when FBH was activated. Zoro did not in fact face the swordsman of the crew. Pica could nevertheless match Zoro in swordsmanship, Zoro never getting any hits on Pica, only when moment presented itself (1080 pound slash) and when Pica was preparing a slamdown which allowed Zoro to cut down his FBH form.

Pica did not match Zoro in swordsmanship. Pica matched Zoro as an overall fighter thanks to his DF, but it's clear that he wasn't as skilled as he is with the sword. It is not because he was preparing a slamdown that Zoro got him, but because Zoro got him off the ground and thus nullified his DF.

Vergo’s armament haki was the hot topic in PH. Caesar witnessed Luffy going G3 and was even aware of Zoro having cut down the dragon, a feat you like to point to. Caesar was not impressed by either and thought Vergo was capable of taking out Luffy, his entire crew, Smoker and Law by himself, saying his Vergo was the “monster” of Punk Hazard haki “is unstoppable”. Again and again Vergo was portrayed as indestructible.

I loved when Vergo was portrayed as unstoppable but being cut in half and let to die by Law as soon as he got his heart back. Good times.

The dude broke Sanji’s leg with his ankle lol. I rest my case.

Yes, he did so with a kick. That's pretty impressive but there's a difference between breaking the leg of an opponent and breaking a high grade sword from a high level swordsman.
Using that point to rest your case is weaker than using the fact that Zoro cut in a single try through Pica's real body despite Pica using the same technique Vergo uses for self-defense. If Vergo was weaponless, he would be low-diffed by Zoro. Thanks to his bamboo stick it can go to mid-diff, arguably high-diff at most.

no one thing more, Zoro is looking terrible this war, all roughed up and needing the help of samurai to not get captured by gifters. This is with his precious Enma that you rub yourself off to believing it will climb Zoro to godhood. He was losing to gifters with Enma

Zoro was never close to being captured, going by your own words, by gifters, nor was he even losing, and if so, please provide a single panel of proof. Him panting in a panel doesn't equate losing, since he was getting over the big slash he got from Apoo. Two chapters later he was shown calmer than ever kicking gifters asses before the samurai reached him, so this is a very weak attempt to undermine him.

This is a war, so of course he wasn't going to solo the 500 gifters in a single chapter or two, yet he was holding his ground just fine 1vs500 without even resorting to santoryu.